Bad idea. Think about Expert Roulette. Scholars can go afk for 20 mins, using auto follow, while Eos going to heal it all alone. Whitemages and Astrologians will fall asleep. Good job, you ruined the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by platorepublic
Did you ever try to do damage without cleric stance? Without cleric stance its just a huge waste of mana. If you make cleric stance enabled for only 5% of the total ingame content, you can actually throw any offensive skill away.Quote:
Originally Posted by platorepublic
You job is to keep your party alive! And includes to heal and doing damage. The game provides a huge mana pool, many offensive skills and a few mana recovery skills. There is no reason not to use it. In fact:Quote:
Originally Posted by platorepublic
Doing some extra damage -> fights are shorter -> less total healing needed -> tanks and DDs can save a few cooldowns for other situations
Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?
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10-25-2016, 11:32 PMCaitlyn
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10-25-2016, 11:48 PMIromi
Yeah, what Caitlyn said is true. With the way this games battle system is I really don't see them removing cleric stance , OP.
It's obvious from the responses in this thread people like cleric stance...heh I imagine if they removed it it would be worse then the bard threads we saw after 3.0 xD -
10-26-2016, 12:41 AMErdrickLoto
Once upon a time, I was a lot like the OP. I adamantly refused to use Cleric Stance, making sure only to heal, maybe throw an Aero or two. After taking a break for a while, I got back into healing, namely because a friend of mine started playing as a tank and I used that as an opportunity to get Stoneskin as a crossclass.
Now I definitely prefer using Cleric Stance. It's a nice balance, switching between attacking and healing, though sometimes I do slip up. I'd definitely prefer keeping it as an option. -
10-26-2016, 12:47 AMMikeWW
People with bad ideas should be disabled from posting.
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10-26-2016, 01:00 AMKeramoryI think a big issue within itself is healers are standing around not doing much if it wasn't for DPS. They should be given more reasons to heal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
Dont get me wrong I'm not saying healers shouldn't DPS, but clearly theres an issue when the main role of a job isn't being fulfilled a majority of the time. We're not healers at that point, we're Red Mages / Supports. -
10-26-2016, 01:20 AMMasekase_HurricaneNot an issue at all WHM has always been able to heal and dps in the single player games. But yes WHM is healer and support that's why you have Protect/Stoneskin etc. If going to remove clerics then remove holy/gravity/Ruin and dots and change class quests to healing only and be able to kill mobs only by hitting with your weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keramory
You have all these skills available why play half a job ? -
10-26-2016, 01:27 AMFunkyBunchHurr Durr, cuz the icon is green!Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
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10-26-2016, 02:10 AMLucke
I'd much rather have trash/bosses do way more dmg so Healers don't have time to DPS. They are constantly healing, and you know, being a healer.
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10-26-2016, 02:50 AMKeramoryI believe you're misunderstanding my comment. I never said WHM or other healers shouldn't DPS. I support it. How much they should be able (not willing) is something to bring up however. Because yes, whm has a set to help DPS in every game. So whats the difference between RDM and WHM? Well duh, we know what that is, the RDM nukes more and heals less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
What I'm arguing, is we are that RDM as it stands for most content (not all). In fact I believe this game has a huge problem with the concept of support classes, something it didnt have as much in 1.0. We as the healers, are support hybrids who are not full healers in the classical sense and we dont have any supports in the classical sense.
Now if you're ok with that, thats one thing, I'm just acknowledging that it exists and I myself don't agree with it. Again, just to CLARIFY, I am not excusing lazy healers who not DPS. I believe that work on DPS'ing however should be split more so between healing and DPSing. No laziness was gained in this concept.
edit- Just to ask around on the subject, someone mentioned that DPS-> shorter fights -> saving MP/heals. Now this might be 110% true, and it makes sense just thinking about, but did anyone actually crunch numbers on this? I'm a numbers guy, I'd like to see the data if it is helping and by how much. It wont effect my gameplay (cause again, I DPS), but I'm always curious about such things.
edit again- I'm looking at just my hotbar atm.... 530 for stone III, 884 for cure II. Am I really saving that much on DPSing? It's not looking likely so far. -
10-26-2016, 03:21 AMFunkyBunchI don't know about how much MP it saves, but ~400 Healer DPS on Neverreap/Fractal works out to about 3-5 mins off dungeon time. I crunched the numbers in another thread from fflogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keramory
But the BIGGER/more noticeable effect for is that it saves everyone else's MP and TP (as a NIN I can run out of TP on full pulls-all the available mobs before a barrier- if the Healer doesn't help DPS). -
10-26-2016, 03:42 AMDaulBan
Incoming Rounding.
Lamebrix Strikebox has around 4.8 million HP.
If raid DPS before a healer is 9k DPS. That means that you'll kill A10s in (roughly) 4800000 / 9000 or 530s Let's say it's 8:50
If a single healer DPSes for 300 dps, the raid DPS goes up to 9300 DPS. 4800000 / 9300 or 515s or we can say it's 8:35.
If Damage Taken is a function of time and the DTPS, say its 4k across the raid. So if you take 15 fewer seconds to clear the fight you save 60k Damage. -
10-26-2016, 03:52 AMGhishlainTotal and utterly complete napkin math incoming and making a lot of assumptions about how consistent and normal the end result HPS / DPS values are for convenienceQuote:
Originally Posted by Keramory
Current Fastest Record A12S Kill on FFLogs
Fight Duration: 9 minutes 53 seconds (593 seconds total)
Raid DPS: 13,626.2 DPS
Total Damage Done = Fight Duration X Raid DPS = 593S X 13,626.2 Damage/S = 8,080,336.6 Damage Done
Healer DPS = 820.4 (SCH) + 659.1 (AST) = 1,479.5 DPS ( for the record, approximately 877,343.5 [10.85%] Damage Done by Healers )
Raid DPS without Healer DPS = 13,626.2 - 1,479.5 = 12,146.7 DPS
Time needed to complete fight with 12,146.7 DPS = 8,080,336.6 Damage / 12,146.7 DPS = ~665 seconds = ~11 minutes and 5 seconds
665S - 593S = 72S longer fight ( 1 minute and 12 seconds )
Healer HPS Requirement minus Overheal = (SCH) 2,200.5 * [1 - 0.2958] + (AST) 2,127.9 * [1 - 0.3553] = 1,549.59 + 1,371.86 = 2,921.45 HPS required
Additional Healing Required if no Healer DPS'd = 2,921.45 Healing / S * 72 seconds = 210,344.4 Healing
(Badly) Assuming approximately 5,250 HP / Physick OR Benefic OR Cure (for sake of easy math) - total number of Cures needed is = 210,334.4 / 5,250 = 40.06 casts = 17,706.52 additional MP needed
^ Take with an EXTREME heaping of salt, as there is obviously more and BETTER ways to cure than spamming Physick / Cure / Benefic all day, also Benefic costs 20% less MP
(Badly) Assuming approximately 3,200 Damage / Malefic II (for sake of easy math) - total number of Malefic IIs to match current damage = 877,343.5 / 3,200 = 274 Casts = 145,220 MP used
^ Take with an EXTREME heaping of salt, a more accurate way to calculate this (and I don't have the time for this ATM) would be to look at each individual DPS spell / ability cast by both SCH and AST and find out the total MP they used to hit this
I'm fairly certain I've done a much more accurate number crunch in the past that I don't have access too and even then you never save MP DPSing. Mobs die faster at the cost of more MP, but that also means there's "less risk" of things going south too, especially when you consider healer DPS reduces the fight duration by 10%.
So, that's just some food for thought. *Resumes lurking* -
10-26-2016, 04:22 AMbasketofsealsCorrect me if I'm wrong, but WHMs generally don't have any offensive capability until/if they get Holy very late into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
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10-26-2016, 04:44 AMRennies
Well, Yuna had her Summons...
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10-26-2016, 05:40 AMSupersun
Rosa had her Bow
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10-26-2016, 05:52 AMAlestorm
Funny when tanks complain about healers doing damage instead of healing and my response is "did you die?".
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10-26-2016, 06:52 AMCaitlynCait have Cleric Stance, Holy, Assize and Aero III...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennies
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10-26-2016, 07:16 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Healing should be about more than DPS numbers. As it is now, healing is incredibly boring, especially as an AST since I can just youtube and button mash to a win without touching a heal once. Sadly though, as long as cleric stance exists, I can't see healing ever becoming more engaging.
Just my opinion of course, but when I can use a macro to spam my rotation without concern for my main job, the balance seems like it would be off somewhere. -
10-26-2016, 12:20 PMLmcgyver
Honestly, I think the problem lies more with the very high iLvl caps. Do people not remember how much harder these faceroll dungeons were when you barely qualified for the minimum item level? (new content doesn't really count, as most people are already well over min iLvl going into them for the first time).
The issue with lowering the cap is, of course, that you lose the sense of progression, and getting good gear isn't as helpful; there'd also be the issue of lazy DPS wanting a carry slowing the run down substantially. But, it would mean that more healing is needed, and it would make the DPS realize they need to step up their game when they actually need to contribute, rather than have one DPS do enough for both of them. -
10-26-2016, 12:30 PMZadocfish
This MIGHT just be the dumbest question I've ever read on this forum.
Why just arbitrarily nerf our ability to contribute to an instance for no reason whatsoever? That's asinine. -
10-26-2016, 01:49 PMMasekase_HurricaneWhm had the set of spells Dia, Diaga, Diaja,Tornado and Aero before Holy, also cure in itself was damaging to undead. On top of this whm had individual spells to remove statuses and had a wider set of buff/debuff spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
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10-26-2016, 01:59 PMKeramoryYes and those spells more or less can count for our Areo spells. However we're stone cold nuking a little more then we should be in a healer role. That time should have been more spent on needed heals, something this game doesnt give incentive of, hence some of our points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
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10-26-2016, 02:11 PMMasekase_HurricaneI am not sure what you mean why are you spending more time in cleric if healing is needed? It takes 5 secs to switch to heal and then switch back, also you choose the times when you have an opening in bigger fights certain stages don't need two to heal. Only reason we have two heals and two tanks is one is main and one is back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keramory
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10-26-2016, 05:34 PMNormalizer
I don't know where it came the assumption that "a healer's primary role is to heal since it called a healer", probably from WoW :P I only see DPS in my party. I guess this problem won't go away unless SE renames the role to "DPS with some healing skills" :P
Joking aside i like the way healing works in ffxiv more than in other game, eg. WoW where all you do is spamming heal like there is no tomorrow without even thinking at all :D
If they removed cleric stance or make healer DPS worthless in instances, worst case is a lot of current healers will switch job (cause healing will be extremely boring at that time), double dungeon queue (lack of healer), longer time to finish (lack of healer dps, and all healers who play healer then gonna be ppl who either watching netflix or spamming heal skills with no idea what they are healing). Oh, then maybe we can see tank raging cause they get harder time to keep hate too, then there will be a thread... "Should tank dps-stance be disabled in party instances". -
10-26-2016, 05:45 PMLmcgyverBut... a healer's primary role *is* to heal. You don't recruit a healer for their ability to put out a lot of damage, you recruit a healer to keep your party alive. It's a healers secondary role to deal damage as the fight allows (and as they are comfortable), but it is their primary objective to keep the party alive above all else. Any damage they can squeeze out is just a bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
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10-26-2016, 05:50 PMNormalizerI meant ppl should stop thinking a healer's role is to heal, but rather a healer's role is to dps/support/buff/debuff while keeping the party alive :P Make those 2 objective equally instead of screaming healing is the ONE and ONLY role a healer should focus on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmcgyver
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10-26-2016, 06:46 PMCaitlynIts like saying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmcgyver
I m a tank, I tank. But I dont use defensive cooldowns or switch to DD-stance as Offtank.
I m a DD, I do damage. But I dont use support skills like mana song or virus.
I m a healer, I heal. But I dont do damage (even when there is nothing to heal).
Each role have to do more than only one job. Speaking of healer, 50% of your job is healing, while 50% is support (in form as extra damage). If you only keep on your main purpose, you re just using only 50% of your potenial. -
10-26-2016, 07:19 PMLmcgyverI was replying to Normalizer, who seemed to be suggesting it wasn't the healer's primary job to heal. I'm fine with a healer putting out damage - I'm a SCH main who spends a lot of time in cleric stance myself - just as long as dealing damage doesn't get in the way of keeping everyone alive. If a healer is not comfortable putting out damage, they should not be forced to. Yes, they *should* deal damage during downtime, but it is by no means a requirement of the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitlyn
A healer's role *is* to heal. Any damage they can put out is a bonus, and should be a goal to aim for, not a requirement that must be fulfilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
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10-26-2016, 07:34 PMSolaiel
There is one point which is not being pointed out that much. As you said , there is bonus from damage, but no job actually has to do more than the very basic of your role.
So like if a tank tanks, dd does dps and healer heals , it is fine for most things on the get go. Especially if you are geared fairly enough.
Then if you like it that way, you can actually play the game that way. No one is stopping you from using or not using skills. That way you can play even if you are not that good and still fulfill your role.
But , the thing is if you want to improve then use just more than that, its a bonus to reward ppl to put their mind to it and actually think how to solve the encounter faster and better.
The only problem here is ppl who complain about other ppl for not being good and thus these threads pop up.
For example dishing out more damage or using support stuff as a dd. If you put your mind to it , nothing is bad in using your dps skills at moments you dont have to heal as long as you still have enough mana.
If you only want to heal but not attack and you do not have enough to do, then just go heal in cleric stance. that way you can heal way more often ^^
No seriously, you can always do things if you have more possibilities. So don't strip a class that can do more of its skills only because you dont like to use them. -
10-26-2016, 07:54 PMTaikaIn what content would it be considered fulfilling one's role and being just fine for a tank to do nothing but gather monsters and spam Flash (they're tanking!)? Or a DD to only spam one of their damage abilities over and over (they're doing DPS!)? The party may get through the content just fine, but that person is not playing up to the minimum standard, and same goes for a healer who uses only their healing abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaiel
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10-26-2016, 07:57 PMHezkezl
Are... are... are people really this obtuse on purpose?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with cleric stance in party instances. Please, stop yourself. -
10-26-2016, 09:21 PMSolaiel
As i said, they will still clear the content.
It will be better of course using more of the toolkit, but if someone wants to only use stuff for the basis , well it cant be helped then.
So let them be. But you yourself can be better if you want. I myself want to keep improving, but i cant judge others not liking to improve in things.
All i say is , it works in basic content. But working and being efficient are different things.
Some may want to min/max, others dont. I do.
Thats what i mean in there is no point removing something you dont use , if others very well use it. You are not the others but yourself. -
10-26-2016, 09:26 PMSigmar_Heldenhammer
Should Cleric Stance be disabled party instances?
No, it should not.
I'm not the greatest geared of tanks, and if healers have time to DPS, or complain about not having to heal and being bored with me in a run, I can only imagine how boring healing would be with a geared tank.
Will some people focus more on "sick deeps" instead of healing? Probably, but that's life. Someone will always ruin a good thing; doesn't mean we should lose that good thing though. -
10-26-2016, 09:50 PMUrthdigger
...have you ever tried to DPS without Cleric's Stance? Removing it wouldn't mean "You can DPS, just not as much". You might as well be doing nothing.
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10-27-2016, 12:53 AMNormalizerIt's just a change of perspective that i think people should encourage new healer to view the role as (support/dps + heal rather than just heal and occasionally dps or no dps at all). Like what you said, together with cleric stance we should probably remove AST cards from the game cause buffing party is clearly not required to healing (i guess they can keep ewer on self), also fey wind from selene :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Lmcgyver
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10-27-2016, 01:20 AMFoxyArekuEvery healer character in every single player FF that I have played has had great offensive options that it would be silly to not take advantage of.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
Of course, it's usually because they mix two classes together... (Rosa is Archer and white mage, Yuna/Dagger/Eiko are summoners and white mages, etc), but the point still stands. A character that does nothing but stand there and heal would be pretty dang useless in the FF world, not to mention boring as sin to have in your party. -
10-27-2016, 04:05 AMLmcgyverExactly this. Healer DPS should be encouraged, not demanded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
I never said cleric stance should be removed (heck, I even mentioned that I use it a lot), and even less so the utility of each healer. I'm just stating that, as long as people are not dying, a healer is fulfilling their requirement to the party. Dealing damage and buffing the party and are the marks of a healer who is confident and able to multi-task, which you have to be able to expect some are not capable of doing for whatever real-life reason (there are people who are genuinely terrified of things going downhill when they swap to cleric).Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
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10-27-2016, 04:41 AMTaikaDo you really think that a SCH "is fulfilling their requirement to the party" if they /follow the tank and go afk while letting the fairy heal, if no one dies? Because this is the argument you're making, that doing the bare minimum, if even that, is acceptable, as long as the group completes the task (in other words, if the other members are willing to put in more effort).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmcgyver
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10-27-2016, 04:46 AMMaikoRainesI had to do a double take on the OP's reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hezkezl
TL;DR - No, OP. Your reasoning, whatever it may be makes no sense. Don't be so daft.. -
10-27-2016, 04:56 AMLmcgyverFulfilling their requirement, yes. Fulfilling their potential, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
That's just the thing. The healer is not required to DPS, and so them not doing DPS does not require everyone else to put in more effort; rather, by a healer doing DPS everyone else ends up putting in less effort. I'm pretty sure that this is part of the reason there are lazy DPS around; they expect the healer to pick up the slack so they can do the bare minimum and get carried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika