A12 savage World first 3 days after patch

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Originally Posted by Auteur

Meanwhile for everyone new and catching up, still stuck grinding ARF over and over and wading through the MSQ wall. Already seeing "farm only" groups for new content and pretty much resigned to the possibility I'll have to write off this patch due to catch up.

The upshot: people like OP, don't ruin the game for the rest of us.

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It's not difficult to make your own party finder. Pretty stupid to not do the new stuff because others are making farm parties.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

Now we wait and see if the clear percentages make any substantial increase this tier. If it's below 5% I heard they're axing hardcore raids once and for all.

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I pray not. Don't even scare me like that.

SE already destroyed PVP, the other thing I loved, likely beyond repair. If raids go too I won't be able to justify my sub just for Wondrous Tails, Gold Saucer, and pretty, easy dungeons like Xelphatol. Would have to suck it up and go to WoW with friends which I don't want to do.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It's not difficult to make your own party finder. Pretty stupid to not do the new stuff because others are making farm parties.

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^

Was getting A5s learning parties in early September from drawing on FC mates and friends.

Stop complaining about it being too easy, or next expansion we'll get Gordias 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You know SE, you want to dumb down raids more? That is fine. Just don't call it Savage anymore. If my group, and several other groups can clear A9S within two hours without a strategy to back us up, that is not Savage.

They say the dumbing down was to compensate the "complex" lv.60 rotations. I am going to call them out on this. They are going to go back to their charts and numbers and go "Ohh more people are beating it, that means it needs to be this way now." and keep it like this for 4.0.

Don't worry guys, we will continue to dumb down Savage till it is easier than Story mode!

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a bit exaggerating there :P dont u think :P

(wows mythic end boss has been downd on first day so :P )

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That depends on the % of players being engaged by end-game content and the % clearing end-game content. In that regard, the last Alex Savage round was a pretty harsh failure with stupidly low completion rates.

A super hardcore group beat the new raid quickly. But will mid-core groups fair so well? Seems like the last tier is already a long term raiding goal for those groups, making this new tier an even longer term goal, yes?

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Definitely. Like I said, it's far too early to make any definitives on whether Savage has become "too easy." We'll have a better idea come 3.5, especially if clear rates are substantially higher. Gordias and Midas were abysmal. If nothing else, this may help the rate scene recover enough that if they did decide to scale it up against (not to previous levels), people might be more open to attempting it.

Trying to stop the world first raiders from clearing too fast has been a mistake for their raid design for a while now.

This is a better direction in my opinion.

If people want to clear it that fast, let them. Why care. The rest of us will just enjoy the content and do it at our own pace. There is really no need to worry about it.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

a bit exaggerating there :P dont u think :P

(wows mythic end boss has been downd on first day so :P )

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I might have to indicate when I am joking and not joking.

And what is to exaggerate? SE is very open in saying that they will tone down the difficulty of raids till they see the percentage they want.

SE should better study on why raiding isn't a big thing. Their solution currently is just turn down the difficulty when solutions are more about the content around it more than the actual content itself. The game offers little to no challenge around raiding. You have Primal EX and....that is it. Barely anything requires you to be more than at the skill floor of your job.

I would argue that SE should worry about high activity rate in Savage as opposed to clears. If you have people jumping in the content at a high rate, then you did something right to motivate them despite it's difficulty. Something like a proper reward structure, previous content that build up your skills/confidence to try raiding, and so on. These are not strongly present in the game currently.

I welcome the change.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I would argue that SE should worry about high activity rate in Savage as opposed to clears. If you have people jumping in the content at a high rate, then you did something right to motivate them despite it's difficulty. Something like a proper reward structure, previous content that build up your skills/confidence to try raiding, and so on. These are not strongly present in the game currently.

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Out of curiosity, how would you boost activity? I think we can both agree that "nice gear" won't be enough for people to really push their anxieties and abilities and give hardcore raiding a go - it doesn't really work for WoW, after all, the quintessence of instanced raiding focus.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Pretty much this. Say what you will about the skill level of XIV players or whatnot, but realistically, Gordias/Midas clears were too freaking low and this looks to be remedying that. Nobody should care that it's too easy for "some" people - it shouldn't be "too hard" for MOST people.

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Well said.

Also now u can easy clear everything ilv 250 there is no even need fore tome gear anymore.. Not even the primal weapon is needed.. For people who says wait to see the clear rate.. Man u can set the difference betwen gordias and midas to 20/30% .. Creator is 80% easier than midas cuz there are lack of wipe raid mechanic and total 0 dps check

The current difficulty of Normal mode is easier in mechanics, but harder in the dmg received.
But there is less penalty for constant deaths too, which throws out the high dmg penalties.

If the penalty of death was higher, I'd say I really enjoy normal modes increased dmg (mainly because I play tank, and I liek playing defensively)
And the savage modes difficulty feels great to me as well. Except turn12.
Honestly you should be spending turns 9-11 gearing up and getting ready for the last fight.

The last fight should always feel like a distant possible victory, and for ppl who cant clear it, they can always gear up on the prior floors.

For final fights, bring back midan/gordias final fight difficulties.
Otherwise, keep this lowered difficulty.

Just a question, didnt the world firsts etc groups complain about the last teirs DPS check? I vivdly remember that thread on here, though I didnt post in it.

The complaint was that gear was needed to clear the final turn(s?). They said that they should only need skill to clear it. This was iirc 40ish hours after release or something.

Posting on my phone is maddening. Hopefully my posts are readible. Cant edit them

Looking at world first groups isn't a good way to judge how difficult something is. Usually world first groups spend 16+ hours a day doing the raid. A8S was beat 6 days after the patch was out so really not much different I am sure the majority of the playerbase will still have a really hard time beating A12S

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Out of curiosity, how would you boost activity? I think we can both agree that "nice gear" won't be enough for people to really push their anxieties and abilities and give hardcore raiding a go - it doesn't really work for WoW, after all, the quintessence of instanced raiding focus.

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Difference is, WoW makes a structure for midcore and hardcore. Also makes content around it (like Heroic Dungeons) that give a nice balance of challenging but fair content for people learning. So while true their Heroic/Mythic activity is not as high, that is mostly because Normal mode itself is a process for casual/midcore players. Unless things have changed, my knowledge is more towards WoTLK days. I encountered many raid groups who jumped right into Heroics after beating the Normal mode.

In terms of reward, there is a lot you can do. There is not much that will make casual players jump for it but you can properly motivate midcore. For starters, don't put the same aesthetics for gear in the Normal. Put acheivements, mounts, minions, titles, high ilvl gear.

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Originally Posted by Greydor

Easy? You think this is easy? This sentiment is appalling. You have world first (experts) that are spending 16+ hours a day trying to clear content for recognition. My static, which I love tremendously that consists of very good players, is looking to get our SophEx clear tonight before we even start A9S.

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I totally agree with this, AS3, 4, and 6 destroyed statics. I'd think that having the vast majority (casual to moderate) players having content they can work towards beating is a good thing. Catering to only the hardcore crowd for raids alienates a large percentage of players that want to spend time in your world.

XIV just has too little raid content. If they had a larger team that could develop multiple tiers that would be great but they just don't. I definitely think an easier raid tier was needed.

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Originally Posted by Emil_no7

I dont mean to remove normal mode, but we can't rely on that players. The game needs 3 different difficulties imo.

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This I totally agree with.

Casual (story) mode - what we have now
Midcore raiding - original Binding Coil difficulty for raiding gear
Savage difficulty - Binding Coil savage - for the hardcore players that want the achievements (also maybe only this drops the mounts that play the music for the fights)

I think that would please everyone, the only issue is this would be more content to develop for a small team.

It's topics like this back when final coil was cleared that birthed gordias, the worst raid ever that absolutely decimated the raiding scene. Is that what you want? The difficulty of the creator is good, great even, and I'll gladly take several more tiers of this kind of difficulty to build back the endgame playerbase than see it all fall apart again because some whiny guys on the forums were mad about people being able to clear content.

Can't believe it...just logged in today to find out what should be the hardest raid in the game has been cleared in under 48 hours from launch.

I play this game with friends, and we enjoy a consistent raid schedule of 9-ish hours a week, taking a few months to clear each patch, including Gordias and Midas. With content scaled down to a ridiculous level, it sounds like this game is going the way our last MMO went...easy content for casual players. Well...that MMO is on its deathbed thanks to that decision, and I'm glad I left it when I did. A shame it looks like FFXIV is now going the same way, since I want a CHALLENGE that I can enjoy for a while.

Can anyone recommend a game for me and my friends to play that will return the challenge that we crave? It sounds like that won't be FFXIV any more...

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Originally Posted by Olympus

Can't believe it...just logged in today to find out what should be the hardest raid in the game has been cleared in under 48 hours from launch.

I play this game with friends, and we enjoy a consistent raid schedule of 9-ish hours a week, taking a few months to clear each patch, including Gordias and Midas. With content scaled down to a ridiculous level, it sounds like this game is going the way our last MMO went...easy content for casual players. Well...that MMO is on its deathbed thanks to that decision, and I'm glad I left it when I did. A shame it looks like FFXIV is now going the same way, since I want a CHALLENGE that I can enjoy for a while.

Can anyone recommend a game for me and my friends to play that will return the challenge that we crave? It sounds like that won't be FFXIV any more...

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WoW has multiple tiers of content including hardcore raiding, I would suggest looking into it if you don't like XIV's raiding content.

The only reason the past raid tiers took so long for world firsts were the gear requirement were higher that you couldn't clear it which was just artificially extending the clear times and the change to ability timers reseting is a huge factor as well.

This content is still going to very hard for most of the player base.

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Originally Posted by KopeAcetic

WoW has multiple tiers of content including hardcore raiding, I would suggest looking into it if you don't like XIV's raiding content.

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Before you get too excited, WoW's top tier raid was also cleared in a very short amount of time (Mythic Emerald Nightmare). Not to say that the raid scene there isn't vastly better than here, but even WoW's focus of late has actually been "we want more people to actually clear this content than we want people to herald it as the pinnacle of skill".

I don't think it's a bad thing, but I do think if you're going to try WoW and it's raiding you should be doing so for the size, atmosphere, and mechanics of their raids, not because of "how hard" they are.

Disappointing but I doubt I'll clear it. Maybe...

I'm sorry, when did world first raiders who treat raiding like a second job become the metric for difficulty in endgame content?

I could probably clear A12S in 48 hours too if I chose to do nothing but throw myself at it.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

The only reason the past raid tiers took so long for world firsts were the gear requirement were higher that you couldn't clear it which was just artificially extending the clear times and the change to ability timers reseting is a huge factor as well.

This content is still going to very hard for most of the player base.

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This is it pretty much it in a nutshell. Any content that holds the best players back MECHANICALLY for weeks will hold anyone else back for months if not the more likely alternate-probably not even completing it at all. This is because it's not something you can alleviate besides just performing the mechanics properly. Steep gear checks were the primary reason past Alexanders took more time. Unless you're a hardcore raider (Which 9 hours a week isn't - in response to Olympus) you'll still have plenty of time to spend with your raid progressing.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

I'm sorry, when did world first raiders who treat raiding like a second job become the metric for difficulty in endgame content?

I could probably clear A12S in 48 hours too if I chose to do nothing but throw myself at it.

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I, too, do not have that much time to devote to raiding. I don't understand all the complaining, to be honest.

People complained about the easy difficulty of FCoB. So the Devs created Gordias Savage. People complained that no one could pass it, and Midas Savage. So they went for something different, Creator Savage. People complaining again that it's "easy." Really, people. I don't know about you, but I DO NOT WANT Gordias 2.0 in the next expansion.

I am a casual to mid-core player. I would love it if I could even clear A9S at some point since this is likely the last high tier raid until 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

It's topics like this back when final coil was cleared that birthed gordias, the worst raid ever that absolutely decimated the raiding scene. Is that what you want? The difficulty of the creator is good, great even, and I'll gladly take several more tiers of this kind of difficulty to build back the endgame playerbase than see it all fall apart again because some whiny guys on the forums were mad about people being able to clear content.

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So you like brainless content where u can ress 7 ppl and clear cool ( our a10s kill had 10 death!!!)

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

I'm sorry, when did world first raiders who treat raiding like a second job become the metric for difficulty in endgame content?

I could probably clear A12S in 48 hours too if I chose to do nothing but throw myself at it.

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Always. Gordias took months - most of people didnt clear - midas took like 1 month and more people cleared - fcob took like 7 days or less - most if people cleared . 47 hours to clear content = everyone will clear it ez

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

So you like brainless content where u can ress 7 ppl and clear cool ( our a10s kill had 10 death!!!)

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No, so it's a good thing this isn't that, nice hyperbole though. The endgame absolutely should not be tailored around world first groups and people of similar skill level. They tried that in gordias and it was terrible. It did more damage to the community than any amount of echo and nerfed mechanics ever had. If you pine for that kind of content you are wrong for doing so.

Edit: well let me amend that. You are not wrong for doing so, but it is the very last thing the game needs right now. Ideally we reach a point where all groups are satisfied at once. Hardcore people got thrown their bone in gordias and midas, now it's time to give a bone to the rest, sorry if that bothers you.

I never thought i would ever say this but if those so called "elites" continue arguing as if they are the only one playing ffxiv i have to say it:
Somehow i wish they add the fatigue system once again to silence them all...

We worked very hard to kick that system out of FFXIV 1.x, so please stop making me regret this decision!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I never thought i would ever say this but if those so called "elites" continue arguing as if they are the only one playing ffxiv i have to say it:
Somehow i wish they add the fatigue system once again to silence them all...

We worked very hard to kick that system out of FFXIV, so please stop making me regret this decision!

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Elitist don't argue about glamours mount relic , they have only 1 thing in this game while casual/social have all the things . if they make the only thing where the hardcore ppl have fun suited to the social.. The social/casual are egoist.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Elitist don't argue about glamours mount relic , they have only 1 thing in this game while casual/social have all the things . if they make the only thing where the hardcore ppl have fun suited to the social.. The social/casual are egoist.

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I'm getting really tired of the word "Hardcore" being used to describe anything. The simple fact of the matter is as follows - If SE designs raid content that (Gonna make up numbers since we don't know anything for sure yet) 20-40% of the raiding population clears in its lifespan- This is successful game design. You simply CANNOT cater to the 1-5% in a game where there are only two forms of difficulty in the tier. Now, if there was to say a "Normal", "Hard", THEN "Savage" then all is fine and well. Mid core content is there for those that want it, and the absolutely crazy stuff is there for people that want that. But until (if ever) that time comes, you absolutely must keep the MAJORITY of your raiding player base engaged and happy- instead of rage quitting, statics breaking up, and just a type of environment that breeds toxic attitudes and behaviors.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Elitist don't argue about glamours mount relic , they have only 1 thing in this game while casual/social have all the things . if they make the only thing where the hardcore ppl have fun suited to the social.. The social/casual are egoist.

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Everyone can do the same things in the game as everyone else. The only difference is that Raiders put all there time into progressing raids, while Casual / Social players prefer to do this in a more relaxed manner. Eventually this means that content of say Savage also needs to be clearable by this social casual group. This is only fair.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Elitist don't argue about glamours mount relic , they have only 1 thing in this game while casual/social have all the things . if they make the only thing where the hardcore ppl have fun suited to the social.. The social/casual are egoist.

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If all you care about is raiding create a raiding group where you hop from game to game to game figuring out and beating all raid content without any guides or assistance. There are enough MMOs with difficult content that would keep you content. If you want the ultimate challenge you won't get it from a single game.

Hardcore isn't the majority of the players of the game, it's casual-midcore. Why would they continue to cater to hardcore and see the game dwindle and die? Isn't it better to give a moderate challenge and keep the game alive?

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Everyone can do the same things in the game as everyone else. The only difference is that Raiders put all there time into progressing raids, while Casual / Social players prefer to do this in a more relaxed manner. Eventually this means e that content of say Savage also needs to be clearable by this social casual group. This is only fair.

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That's the point ..why every1 must be able to clear everything? Is this an inner rule? If something is too hard for u , u have a lot of things to do , people also have normal where they can see the story , the istance , the music , the boss . THE only means for the endgame to exist is that it must be something really hard.. Or it won't be and endgame content.

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Originally Posted by KopeAcetic

If all you care about is raiding create a raiding group where you hop from game to game to game figuring out and beating all raid content without any guides or assistance. There are enough MMOs with difficult content that would keep you content. If you want the ultimate challenge you won't get it from a single game.

Hardcore isn't the majority of the players of the game, it's casual-midcore. Why would they continue to cater to hardcore and see the game dwindle and die? Isn't it better to give a moderate challenge and keep the game alive?

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Is like u say , if 99% of players are social/mid and 1% hc , they should make 99% casual/mid content and 1% content for hc. But now we have 100% for the first part

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

That's the point ..why every1 must be able to clear everything? Is this an inner rule? If something is too hard for u , u have a lot of things to do , people also have normal where they can see the story , the istance , the music , the boss . THE only means for the endgame to exist is that it must be something really hard.. Or it won't be and endgame content.

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Who has ever said that "endgame" should only be beatable by 1% of the population? Isn't the entire point of the endgame to be the end of the game? Why should only hardcore be able to play the endgame?

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Originally Posted by KopeAcetic

Who has ever said that "endgame" should only be beatable by 1% of the population? Isn't the entire point of the endgame to be the end of the game? Why should only hardcore be able to play the endgame?

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Normal is endgame too , you have the endgame for casual/mid . Now there is another 1 not normal , should be for another target.. Am i wrong?