Exactly, we still probably have at least 2 more updates coming. I think there was already talk that 3.45 is going to be the anima quest update, so ilvl270 for anima.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Than the last 24 man raid to end the 3 part series, which will bring in another gear set.
So unless SE has plans to change parry BEFORE 4.0 hits tanks seem to be SoL unless the new raid content brings better preferred stats or something.
SE must be drunk.
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10-01-2016, 07:32 AMYhoiryo
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10-01-2016, 11:53 AMSpookyGhostThe 24 man raid isn't going to be higher ilvl than the tomestone gear, it'll be equivalent with the unupgraded version and we're going to get the upgrade mats from said 24man raid before the expansion. So the tomestone/Savage gear is what we're going into 4.0 with, and most people will only have access to the tomestone gear. If, for some reason, you do go into 4.0 with the 24man gear I'm pretty sure it'll be loaded with Parry as well, but regardless it's probably not going to be a required stat or anything so you won't be at a huge disadvantage by having pieces with no Parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Since we're on the tank forum I'm going to be blunt with you and tell you that if you're intentionally using an i260 left side piece over an i270 left side piece then you've got the wrong mentality. Secondary stats won't make up for the downgrade of both STR, VIT, Def and Magic Def.
Also yes. We could end up with the weapon being changed. But that's it. That's all that would realistically change, unless you intentionally choose to gimp yourself by stockpiling 24man gear like some sort of conspiracy theorist. -
10-01-2016, 12:24 PMLone-wolfe-02
How do they decide stats for gear exactly? They know people hate parry and will avoid it at all costs so why make gear with so much parry?!.
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10-02-2016, 06:01 AMFebrusLike I said, BiS is likely still going to be savage/tome upgraded gear, but whether or not the stats are actually favorable is a different question that depends on what they do with Parry. You're right that the gear players go into 4.0 with won't really matter, because you can clear everything with just standard gear. That same fact, though, is also what also allows for the possibility of tanks ignoring parry. There's a lot of weekend tanks out there who will only have 24-man gear. I don't think anyone is going to complain about that, given that the content will be equally clear-able with both 260 and 270 sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
That actually depends on the content you're running. If we're talking about standard end-game PvE content, then yes. The gear with the highest item level is the king. However, if we're talking about content that is level sync'd then the answer changes a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
To most of you this will sound crazy, because the vast majority of Tanking purists do not deign to play anything other than raids, extreme trials, or the occasional roulette; however, if you've ever walked into a match of PvP, for example, then you'd find your gear to be inferior because of its secondary stat allotments. The 150 stat caps ensure that some stats are more desirable than others. Parry is useless, so slotting gear which has it could see you undercutting another stat (like Det or Crit) which is more valuable in that content. The reason I take an interest in variant gear selections is because the only way to min/max your stat options in such content is by mixing and matching gear with favourable stats, rather than just going with what has the highest item level. I know that I'm definitely in a minority here, though. Most tanks will just go with the highest item level and never have a worry over having to actually customize their stat load-outs ... though, that doesn't give them any less of a right to complain about getting shafted with what is essentially a throw-away stat. -
10-02-2016, 06:17 AMFebrusJokingly, the theory is that they draw up a list of arbitrary cliche traits typically associated with defensive jobs, then they throw dice to determine the exact values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02
Seriously, they probably base it off of the plans they have for future content. Keep in mind that they not only calculate our defensive capabilities, but also the offensive capabilities of the enemies we face. So, in theory, they know how much or how little defense we'll need to run into content like savage Alexander, for example. Using those values, it becomes a math equation. They basically theory craft, or calculate, what stats we would need to deal with their projected scenarios, then they would probably do some testing within the master copy of the game. If the stats don't add up, they re-spec accordingly until they have the correct values.
Parry is tricky, because it traditionally under-performs in all content. SE has been grudgingly resistant to acknowledge that in the past and continues to give it to us on all our gear. An optimistic person would probably assume that they continue to do that because they have a "plan" for making Parry viable. That's a fair assumption because they have gone on record saying, rather vaguely, that they will make adjustments to that stat. That said, it wouldn't be the first time SE dragged their feet on an issue. The fact that almost ALL of the current gear has parry on it would seem to imply that change will be soon (either just before or just after 4.0), but I'm not gonna hold my breath on that.
It's also worth noting that the best stats are typically found on Savage level gear, regardless of job or stat. SE is aware that Parry is widely considered to be the less favourable option, so it would make sense for them to put it on the gear below savage level to both reward the most extreme players in the game, as well as encourage more of us to attempt savage level content. -
10-02-2016, 06:19 AMUnittj
I am making the assumption the overwhelming amount of parry is in response to the player question that was asked to Yoshi-P at PAX East as a preparation of the promise of updating the stat's algorithm in 4.0?
Aside from that, I have absolutely no idea. -
10-02-2016, 07:06 AMXenosan
I believe what was said is that he was made aware by the battle team that people avoid it because it scales on a (punishing) curve and that they would look into solutions (but my take away is only in this one aspect)..
Putting it on so much gear is one solution to stopping us from avoiding it.. cuz.. you know.. we can't as easily now. With how they're handling ACC for healers I don't expect their Parry response to be any more timely or agreeable. But I doubt it will be before 4.0, though I'm happy to turn out wrong on that.
^Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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10-02-2016, 07:09 AMFalar
Just logged on for the first time this patch and wow, the scripture tank gear is terribad. Looks like I'll main Ninja this patch. Man this stuff hurts the eyes.
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10-02-2016, 08:10 AMBlackenedTiamat
Funny thing about the ilv250 crafted chest piece is, that its better than the ilv260 scripture chest if melded appropriately.
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10-02-2016, 08:11 AMAnubis_NephthysYea, we will get i265 weapons and i260 gear with 3.5, along with the ability to upgrade i260 tome gear to i270 once a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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10-02-2016, 05:06 PMSpookyGhostI don't think that Parry will be required to clear the starting dungeons in 4.0 or anything, but they're throwing Parry at us now so that we have access to that gear when 4.0 has launched.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
No, it doesn't, because secondary stats don't matter outside of something like min ilvl raiding which isn't going to be something most people do. You're not going to min/max your secondaries for Sastasha NM.Quote:
That actually depends on the content you're running. If we're talking about standard end-game PvE content, then yes. The gear with the highest item level is the king. However, if we're talking about content that is level sync'd then the answer changes a bit.
It's exactly the same as PVE, except Accuracy disappears. Also I have no idea what kind of argument you're trying to make here. "But PvP!"... and? Like we're not talking about PvP, we're talking about PvE when 4.0 launches wherein you'll want to use the highest ilvl stuff because it is unequivocally better. If you're stuck with i260 stuff because you just showed up last minute or whatever then okay, that's the highest ilvl stuff you have so you use that. But if you had the choice to use the ilvl 270 stuff you would. You wouldn't go "well this has this and that, so I'm going to give up health for the extra whatever". As a DPS, sure, it's not as important, I remember BRDs prioritizing lower ilvl pieces with higher Crit due to how BL procs worked back in 2.0 - but giving up health, physical defense, and magic defense for a small amount of extra crit is madness. Right side is more understandable since it's just health, but the trade would have to be severely in favor of the DPS or very minimal on the health, otherwise you're still looking at a worse piece.Quote:
however, if you've ever walked into a match of PvP
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10-03-2016, 03:33 AMFebrusI'm not trying to argue with you here. I already agreed (twice) that BiS will undoubtedly be the highest item level gear, regardless of how terrible those stats are. I'm just pointing out that no one is going to discriminate against any tank who happens to be using non-parry loaded gear, even if it's a lower item level, because it really won't make a difference. This is especially the case in 4.0, because we'll be leaving our 3.5 gear behind us within a day of launch, replacing it with practically anything else we pick up in the very first new dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
I did specify PvP for a reason. I'm aware that no one in their right mind is going to min/max their gear for standard lower level sync content, although the concept of min ilvl raiding is an interesting one. That didn't even cross my mind, but it would be enjoyable, assuming you could find seven other players who are willing to pick up the challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
I'm sorry, Spook, but you're way off the mark on this one. It is most certainly not the same in PvP, and the difference has been well documented over in the PvP forums. I'm not going to bother with specifics here, because this isn't the place for it, but min/maxing your gear the only way to make the best of your stat caps in that content. Just because you don't have an interest in that, does not mean that the interest does not exist for anyone. It's not as though PvE content has a heavier merit over that interest, either, because you could literally go into ANY PvE content in the game (aside from maybe savage level) with the minimum required item level and still clear it as a tank. No one would even bat an eyelash at your item level, so long as you preform your job.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
That aside, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. For one, I wasn't trying to start an argument in the first place, and I was actually agreeing with you from the start about BiS gear. As for 4.0 PvE content ... so what? You are arguing the merits of secondary stats on gear that will literally be replaced the very moment that content is released. No one cares what gear you'll be wearing in 4.0, or what secondaries it has, because you'll be out of that gear as soon as you hit the first dungeon of that content. It's like arguing the merits of having your junker car tuned up and cleaned before you trade up to the next model. By comparison, anyone concerned with minimum ilvl raiding or PvP stat caps makes more sense, as their caps will remain consistent regardless of new content.
Again, you're completely right that BiS is without a doubt the highest ilvl set available when it comes to PvE content, and most of you will only ever be concerned with that content. I'm not arguing that point, but what's BiS is not the be-all-end-all of this topic. As things stand right now, Parry is still a throw-away stat and considered universally unfavorable in ALL content of the game, regardless of if it happens to be on a BiS piece or not. Further, that BiS gear means absolutely nothing in 4.0, as it will not be required to clear any of the intro content and will be replaced by that content on day 1 of its release. -
10-03-2016, 08:08 PMBloodklat
Thanks for screwing us over on this patch SE. I just returned from a long break, excited about the new stuff only to find out SE has ruined tanks on this patch. Good bye again game. Break until 4.0.
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10-03-2016, 09:27 PMZojhaIt seems really arbitrary to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02
I personally avoid skill speed as much as parry on my Monk and Ninja since I'm already suffering from lag and skill speed just exacerbates the problem, but SE keeps throwing the stuff at me ._.'
Heh. Kinda makes you wish for a relic-armor you could individualize >.> -
10-04-2016, 02:18 AMKaisinel
If you don't want parry gear then raid? Problem solved. Most of the actual good gear for every job is from the raid because the raid scene was crippled with previous savage.
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10-04-2016, 02:24 AMMaero
The thing is though,
other jobs have not so great stats on gear as well.
Not only tanks
Parry i imagine will be of more use at some point -
10-04-2016, 02:49 AMHaelseMikiro
Parry on Scripture gear is probably another method SE is using to 'nudge' players into raiding.
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10-04-2016, 05:04 AMZojhaAbout as effective as spitting into your guests soup to nudge them to order a steak instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro
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10-04-2016, 09:39 AMKitelessThat would work if parry was at least useful for providing valued defensive utility at the cost of offensive prowess. It would make it the sort of gear that would be useful in progression, sacrificing DPS and clear times for the sake of survivability, encouraging players to use it as a stepping stone towards a more offensive gearset that would take advantage of a player's developed understanding of the nuance and challenges presented by a given raid situation. However, parry doesn't do that. Parry actually ends up doing next to nothing, making it not a stepping stone, but a waste of space. Instead of giving players a tool to work themselves up towards raiding, it gives them crap and tells them to simply deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro
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10-04-2016, 10:36 AMKaisinel
More than likely it's only there for casual players who aren't going to raid and have them set up for 4.0 since it's been talked about reworking the parry formula. Only logical reasoning behind it. If you want the BiS gear then you are going to have to raid. Alexander isnt that difficult.
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10-04-2016, 04:19 PMReynhartI haven't tried Creator Savage yet, but the normal version actually uses far more powerful auto-attacks than before, and put less emphasis on tankbusters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
So, I think Parry would be more useful than it used to since your HP doesn't play yo-yo as much as before.
If they indeed change how parry works in 4.0, Scripture set can be a great survivability boost from that point onwards. -
10-04-2016, 05:10 PMKhalitharI actually prefer the look of the scripture set, the last few armor sets have been so elaborate and exotic with the colors and designs, I actually like that we're finally getting something with a simpler more functional design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhoiryo
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10-07-2016, 02:04 AMSweetgrass
They need to introduce actual benefits to taking Parry. The scaling is awful, the effect unnoticeable, and it doesn't work on half of the damage in the game.
Better scaling, reflecting the parried damage, and a guaranteed crit on your next autoattack would be a start. -
10-07-2016, 02:40 AMReynhartSo, three of your suggestions to make this defensive stat better...is to make it an offensive stat :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sweetgrass
I'll never get used to this meta...
They need to increase the scaling and make monsters hit far stronger with unpredictable damage. -
10-07-2016, 03:31 AMMagiusNecrosYeah it seems to me we need to just do away with secondaries if it is just going to boil down to Primary+Secondary = Attack StatQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
At which point we can just have ATK and DEF as opposed to 6 ability scores and you only use 2 of the 6 and abandon the rest.
Kinda like how Physical and Elemental resistances don't even matter. Which begs the question of why they are there to begin with other then to look good on paper. -
10-07-2016, 03:53 AMStarkbeaumont
issue with parry is that it only works from the front and how narrow that part of your char is. for big pulls it's always a pain when the mobs push each other away, just so so already attack you from your flank. very noticable when you use raw intuition on war.
I'd personally would change the parry stat to a stat that lowers (physical) damage taken in general. -
10-07-2016, 04:47 AMHPDelron
SE is hardly unaware of parry not being particularly useful.
SE certainly doesn't throw stats on gear randomly.
To my mind, loading up more of the most common gear upgrades with parry must therefore be an attempt to tamp down on whatever might take the place of parry. In other words these choices are meant to lower (or at least put a speed bump in the progression of), Tank DPS. -
10-07-2016, 06:38 AMFernosaurTbh ever since HW arrived our substats are pretty... eh...Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
I'd say inconsequential, compared to what they used to be at least. The nerfs to pretty much everything made the game a 100% more streamlined than it already was and that makes me sad :( -
10-07-2016, 07:08 AMClaire_Pendragon
I notice Reprisal procc'ing constantly now on boss fights with slow attack speed.
So I'd have to say every boss right now has a constant physical attack going off, and it has helped me as DRK tremendously, since I can pretty much keep Reprisal up 99% of the time its off CD.
Though I dont have a static, I run into PUG healers that cant keep me up in grit with a CD, much less w/o grit and offensive stats. (static healers are crazy good) So the added parry should help for players like me. (Surprisingly PUG DPS have been far better lately than they have been in years.) -
10-07-2016, 09:58 AMZojhaWhich would only cause one thing - healers entering cleric stance less often. Mitigation is essential to prevent one-shot protection, but once you can't be one-shot anymore, the healers can pick up the slack far more efficiently than any mitigation stat could. Try running a dungeon once without a tank and once without a healer, you'll see why people rather let a healer do the job than mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-07-2016, 10:22 AMClaire_PendragonYou didnt really counter his statement. You just said WHMs wont DPS as much, which is close to a counter argument, and then used an example not applicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
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10-07-2016, 01:54 PMReynhartIf each auto-attack can eat a good chunk of your HP, like when a fresh ilvl70 faced Caduceus for the first time, then having a fair chance of reducing this by 20-30% would greatly help healers. And I think parrying and blocking should reduce way more than 20-30%Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
And you say it would require healers to focus more on healing ? Without being called lazy for not having Cleric Stance activated most of the time ? Yeah, two birds with one stone.
Oh, and if bosses hit much harder, your "dungeon without a tank" will end very quickly. -
10-07-2016, 02:08 PMSarcatica
Parry just sucks for anyone to stack. This type of game emphasizes more on active CDs to use while parry is just "oh that hit parried, okay" and mostly also because it's not on demand which contributes more towards tank busters. Basically parry needs more punch for people to start stacking it. The only part where parry is any close to useful is to proc Reprisal. Anything else doesn't feel as impactful, I haven't have that many instances where parry actually saved my life (except for that one Flatten back in 2.4, and even then it's just not any reliable).
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10-07-2016, 04:03 PMReynhartThe main reason why auto-attacks should not be trivialized by simple healing. Creator is already far heavier than before on this, and I think it's a good thing. It's not unusal to see the tank's HP going lower and lower with auto-attacks only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Here's another way how parry could be revamped.
I'd change every mitigation skill to give them a potency (Except HG, Holmgang and LD, obviously). And, like having good offensive/healing potency is useless with poor stats, having low parry would reduce the effectiveness of all mitigation skills when compared to now.
BUT, having high parry would actually make Rampart and Inner Beast reduce more than 20%, Vengeance reduce more than 30%, etc...
And to feel less awkward when dealing with magic damage, the name could be changed too... -
10-07-2016, 07:05 PMNeelawasnt yoshi talking about this with HW? Rework tanks & healers to focus on their job and not on dps? Here we go : )Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
and to be honest i would love it... if it would ever be the case. even it's common and used by the community – it's absolut unlogical that Wars and Schs are equal with DDs or even beat them in off stance. but i guess im nearly alone with this opinion... -
10-07-2016, 07:32 PMDaulBanIf I was forced as a tank to do no damage 'because I am a tank' I'd quit being a tank period. I sincerely believe that if you play a tank and get your CD rotation down to the point where you can DPS comfortably while A) holding aggro B) not dying and C) not giving your healer a heart attack there's no reason why you shouldn't be rewarded with doing good damage. Sitting in tank stance and spamming aggro combos is boring. Cooldown planning is boring after you've worked it out. At least doing good DPS requires a bit of thought and is more exciting as a goal than not being dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
As to SCH and WARs out-DPSing other classes, consider that no good DPS should be swamped by a tank or healer in damage at comparable gear levels. If a DRK/PLD/WAR is doing more damage than a comparable DPS, that means the DPS needs to step its game up, not be dragging its feet and complaining that tanks are OP. -
10-07-2016, 07:47 PMNeela
you are absolutely right with your points – but in reality most of the wars/schs you meet in df are just playing like a full dd cls not being able to get their prios right. yesterday i died 3 times as ilvl 235 Drk with the latest Anima on a simple 60 roulette cause the healer didn't want to quit cleric - uh yeah let them dps as they like. some hours later i went to S3 to get my last weekly loot where a War grand us 2 wipes cause he thought tanking in dps stance would help the group to be "faster".
if prios are hold up i don't care and welcome extra dps but talking about stat weights for tanks/healers i can't get used to all the crying about loosing det on tank gear or acc on sch gear. thats all im talking about. -
10-07-2016, 07:49 PMLyth
Finding the best combination of stats is an optimisation problem (i.e. optimise a given function subject to some constraints). Stats in this game generally fall into one of two categories: objectives and constraints. Objectives are things that you try to maximise. Crit, det, and skill speed are examples of these. When there are multiple stats like this, you tend to prioritise them based off of whichever carries the highest weight (i.e. if you can't meld crit because of stat caps, meld det/sks).
Constraints represent minimum stat thresholds that you're required to meet to avoid incurring a penalty. Accuracy is one such stat. Once you meet the minimum accuracy threshold, there's no further benefit to accumulating more. Skill speed thresholds on certain jobs can function in a similar manner. Purely "defensive" stats, such as pre-3.2 vitality, fall into this category as well, where you may need to meet a certain threshold in order to safely tank an encounter.
The problem with parry at present is that it's a constraint stat, but there's no required parry threshold to clear an encounter. As a result, tanks try to avoid it altogether. If you simply strengthen parry's defensive value and make it mandatory for tanking encounters (this might be difficult to do in practice, though, as you might just get unlucky and never see a proc), then tanks will just find the minimum threshold to tank with. It simply becomes a second accuracy stat. If you give it some offensive value in terms of counterattacks and procs, then it could function as an objective stat. The problem with this is that you would end up splitting off tank gear into "tanking" vs. "off-tanking" sets, which pushes us back towards the old MT/OT tanking setup (of course, you may end up doing this anyways, if you make parry essential).
There's also the question of where Shield Block fits into this. Do you design shields so that their contribution is relatively fixed, allowing you to shed a set amount of parry? Do you let it have some dependence/interaction with the parry stat?
Regardless of how it's implemented, though, I don't think it's going to be a terribly interesting stat, as long as it falls into one of the above patterns. I'd be much more interested in seeing gear stats that interact more directly with your skills (i.e. affecting recast and adding special effects), but these are more complex to analyse and balance. -
10-07-2016, 08:22 PMReynhartThen play a DPS. Why do you even play tank if you find tanking boring ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
What may seem boring to you can be interesting for someone else. Why should this game only reward one type of tank ?
Maintaining aggro is a constraint, surviving is a constraint. Tanking is a constraint. Why do you think so few people actually enjoy that role ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
The only problem is that the two basic aspects of tanking are too easy. Instead of pushing DPS, they should balance combat so that maintaining aggro and surviving require skill. At least, you could shine as a "Tank", and not as a would-be DPS. -
10-07-2016, 09:14 PMLythOne of the reasons why I defined the terms at the start is because "objective" and "constraint" are mathematical terms in this context. I knew that someone was bound to read that with the emotional connotation of "being constrained," but that's taking the word out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Support roles, such as tanking and healing, are about finding a correct balance. When you heal a player at full health, we refer to that as "overhealing". It's unfortunate that we haven't coined a similar word for tanking (i.e. "overmitigation"). Healing or mitigating in excess of the requirements of a fight is inefficient. Playing these roles at their maximum potential requires you to identify how much is the correct amount, both for the fight and for your group. The requirements are constantly changing and you need to be flexible enough to adapt on the fly. That's the fun and the skill in the roles.
The reason why the idea of "DPS" tends to upset some tanks and healers is because it's an objective metric against which you can be judged. Once you get sufficiently geared, it's easy to build up a circle of friends who you consistently play with and who re-enforce the idea that you are a "good" tank, irrespective of whether you push yourself to get better. Unless you pug a lot, which is worth doing, you often won't see other players performing the exact same role as yourself, and it's easy to convince yourself that you're playing well. DPS bothers tanks because it makes them aware that they might not be as skilled as they've convinced themselves that the are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Most tanks recognise that the role is multifaceted. You need to:
1) Obtain enmity promptly, retain it, and pass it off when needed with minimal disruption
2) Mitigate effectively
3) Move and position mobs in order to ensure raid safety and enhance raid dps
4) Where the above is met, maximise dps
A tank's dps doesn't depend on the same things as a damage dealer. You can go on about how masterful your opener is or how complex your Berserk and FoF windows are, but the truth is that most tank jobs at level 60 are less rotationally complex than your average dps job is at level 30. There are some basics to attend to and practice, but once you understand that, the single biggest contribution to your dps comes from your time out of tank stance.
When you realise that, you quickly see that all of the core tenets of tanking are reflected in your ability to safely dps. When you mitigate and generate enmity optimally, you are less reliant on tank stance, and your dps goes up. When you reposition mobs effectively, you don't lose autos or GCDs in the process, and neither do your dps. Both your personal dps and the raid's dps goes up.
There is a misconception that tanks who push high dps do so by ignoring mitigation. It's actually the exact opposite. You do it by having a thorough knowledge of the damage patterns and mitigation requirements of a fight. If you take such a tank and put them into a fight with higher mitigation requirements, they'll do less dps on that fight, but they'll also survive where other tanks do not. If you find a tank who has higher dps than you, it's because they know how to mitigate more effectively than you. I wouldn't see this as an affront, but as a learning opportunity. Steal their secrets.