Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished.....

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Originally Posted by viion

I would love for you to actually try this on some of the current NM's, go on, go cast Cure 3 on a tank during DH dungeon Orge when the tank is 50% and watch the ogre rape your face.

Not to mention as cure gets stronger, it will likely have a higher delay, what if I dont want that delay?

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I will say, with DH came out (1.18) I did not use this method so I cannot speak for then. But since 1.19 I've used this method on Ifrit, Strongholds AND Darkhold (both Ogre and Batraal & it works just fine) Of course you wouldn't do this without Soughspeak, Out of Sight and before a tank gets any of his abilities off. By the time your tank reaches 40% they should have exhausted all of their abilities once and casting a Cure III should be fine.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

because in every other final fantasy the spell effect is determined by its tier plus there is no mention that the effect itself will scale upon potency.
thats what im basing it on.

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Wrong. Final Fantasy II you bought Fire. Not Fire 2 or 3. You gained levels in it as you used it and the animations changed every 2 levels. The spell was still called Fire even at level 16.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

It's highly unlikely to have a longer delay, don't be ridiculous, you are just speculation to make your case look better now.

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Dont speculate... oh ok, so you don't either?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

As for the comment about hate, we are probably getting new skills they are no doubt going to address provoke and balance it..

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Oh shit you just speculated. I don't debate with hypocritical idiots.

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Originally Posted by NarikoStar

I will say, with DH came out (1.18) so I cannot speak for then. But since 1.19 I've used this method on Ifrit, Strongholds AND Darkhold (both Ogre and Batraal & it works just fine) Of course you wouldn't do this without Soughspeak, Out of Sight and before a tank gets any of his abilities off. By the time your tank reaches 40% they should have exhausted all of their abilities once and casting a Cure III should be fine.

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Would love to see proof because after being with several various tanks doing DH, all have failed to keep hate if I even do a single Cure 3 (even when ogre is over 50% waythrough). Maybe all of them sucked balls? But the only way I was able to survive (plus the 2 other healers) is Cure 2.

Nothing to say that Paladin won't get some kind of healing skill as part of their quests skills either, its far too early to speculate not only with the upcomming changes but the ones that will appear in 1.21 and after as well.

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Originally Posted by viion

Oh shit you just speculated. I don't debate with hypocritical idiots.

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Cool, see if I care :P

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Originally Posted by viion

Would love to see proof because after being with several various tanks doing DH, all have failed to keep hate if I even do a single Cure 3 (even when ogre is over 50% waythrough). Maybe all of them sucked balls? But the only way I was able to survive (plus the 2 other healers) is Cure 2.

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Perhaps whenever we run again I could fraps it- Other than that I have no way of proving it (currently) ;( Sorry

From the sound of how it will work now, I imagine that perhaps instead of a wasted level where you just learn the 2nd tier of an ability, instead you'll have two means in which your ability potency increases. I have Iron Tempest, since I"m to lazy to think of the level it's learned let's say I learned it at 26, so basically on the ability it would have something like "Optimal Rank" 26, Potency Increased: 40. At least I hope they just do it at static levels, I think it would be a tad to time consuming resource wise to scale every ability to be better every single level. If they just base it on a static level it would be a lot easier to adjust abilities lol.

So in terms of the elemental family, while you may only see Fire, your potency in fire would improve at 16, 30 and 45.

But ya, slowly looking at the system I wonder if perhaps some of Black Mages abilities will end up being Ancient Magic lol.

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Originally Posted by Airget

From the sound of how it will work now, I imagine that perhaps instead of a wasted level where you just learn the 2nd tier of an ability, instead you'll have two means in which your ability potency increases. I have Iron Tempest, since I"m to lazy to think of the level it's learned let's say I learned it at 26, so basically on the ability it would have something like "Optimal Rank" 26, Potency Increased: 40. At least I hope they just do it at static levels, I think it would be a tad to time consuming resource wise to scale every ability to be better every single level. If they just base it on a static level it would be a lot easier to adjust abilities lol.

So in terms of the elemental family, while you may only see Fire, your potency in fire would improve at 16, 30 and 45.

But ya, slowly looking at the system I wonder if perhaps some of Black Mages abilities will end up being Ancient Magic lol.

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They wont put in a specific figure every level, they will have a formula they will use for various different skills.

All elemental will likely use a set formula that increases it a % based on level. Then it does the scaling itself. No resources or time spent at all.

^ what she said.

Not really sure how I feel about the elimination of upper tier abilities. On one side i'm all for it while on another i'm not. Don't get me wrong I kind of like the fact that they are going for more diversity but 15 abilities? That's a tad low isn't it?

Also in regards to mages, how is that going to be handled? Are you really telling me WHM/BLM (CNJ/THM) are going to only have 15 spells? There's just no way.

Does this mean those spells will have one animation and that's it? Seems like a cop out to me. Here's hoping that as level/potency increases the animation gets flashier.

Didn't read all the posts so excuse me if someone already mentioned this;
Allow me to speculate:

level 1 cure casting bar |-|
level 50 cure casting bar |----------|

I'm thinking the mechanics is going to allow you to produce the spell anywhere during the cast.
MP and potency higher nearer the end of the bar.
Cast time balanced out by higher level's fast cast

and graphics adjusted accordingly on how far up the bar you cast ^^

Need ez system, esc key, to cancel

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Originally Posted by ninesunz

Didn't read all the posts so excuse me if someone already mentioned this;
Allow me to speculate:

level 1 cure casting bar |-|
level 50 cure casting bar |----------|

I'm thinking the mechanics is going to allow you to produce the spell anywhere during the cast.
MP and potency higher nearer the end of the bar.
Cast time balanced out by higher level's fast cast

and graphics adjusted accordingly on how far up the bar you cast ^^

Need ez system, esc key, to cancel

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It seems hugely unlikely this will be the case, it would be good, if you had a bar with x amount of "points" which it charges up, if it hit top it just does the highest potency like usual but you could hit enter at say 3/10 to do a 3rd potency, 3rd mp usage, 3rd the hate, etc.

Would solve issue and be pretty epic, it would be like having 10 (or x) amount of tiers but with 1 spell.

But ya know, Yoshi wont think of anything smart like this and it will be the case of having like a cure 3, deal with it!

I'm just going to assume they'll have the animations change at intervals in your level. I couldn't see them removing tiers in spells w/o adding something else. There is always black mage on the horizon as well so that might add something in terms of a bigger fireball and such.

i think there just getting rid of the names fire 1- fire 2- fire 3. but as each spell gets stronger (which we know the spells will get stronger as mp use and damage will go up), so as they get stronger the visual effect should scale also.

but i don't think they should get rid of the name fire1, fire2 fire3, they are trademark blackmage and a final fantasy staple

What did they do with Fira? and Firaja?

I'm in 'Wait and See' mode right now.

They said that this was just the first part of a two part explanation. I'd rather have the whole of it before making any definite comments.

I'm sure magic classes have a whole lot of questions that are likely going to get answered in the next segment.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

idk why theyre doing this, but its quite visually boring to me.

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To be more standard with generic MMOs, you generally don't get tiers of any skill -- You upgrade them but they're all essentially just "one tier".

Slowly but surely XIV is becoming just another MMO.

They mention getting rid of tiers for every action and spell in the game which will make it less confusing for those who are not very good at things like keeping track of a lot of stuff(even though it's pretty simple when it's tiered spells i mean higher = better pretty simple)

That said they also mentioned that the spells and abilities would become more powerful according to your level and there is no reason to think that the animations would not reflect this. It would not to be that hard for the game to know what level you are and cast a bigger and better animation because of it. I think it's pretty likley despite the vagueness of the original comment.

Once this happens we can test this quite easily. For example I am a LNC. We get Doomspike and Doomspike II both have different animations. After the patch if a low level LNC uses the lower level animation while a higher level LNC uses the higher level animation it will basically prove what i was saying earlier in that the animations will scale just as the power of the spells do as you level.

Any of the mages in the game can do a similar test. All you need is a friend or a alt character with a low level of the job you want to test and a high level and see if there is a difference to the animations. As lack luster as the animations currently are they did vary a bit by tier and i can't imagine they would just throw all that out without having new stuff tot take it's place. More so when people have complained alot about the lacking effects in the game.

Support support support. I want to see that explosive difference and growth in my character's magic!
Also provides a goal while leveling, to get to the that next 'more awesome' tier.

Dumbing down too much is never a good thing.

I don't mind the cleanup I guess, but I would prefer the name of the skill to actually change from Fire to Fire II or Fira, along with accompanying animation. This really is very classic FF and it just doesn't feel the same without it. :(

I hope something like this might be what they had in mind.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

I don't mind the cleanup I guess, but I would prefer the name of the skill to actually change from Fire to Fire II or Fira, along with accompanying animation. This really is very classic FF and it just doesn't feel the same without it. :(

I hope something like this might be what they had in mind.

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Probably won't work that way though... that in a sense would be keeping the same tiers. You have Fire I, then we get to X level you get Fire II now they remove Fire I from your list, highly doubt they would do something like this.

I'd imagine it more like you learn Fire and it has (optimal rank 5), then eventually you get upgraded and and it becomes Fire (optimal rank 25). Accomplish the same thing but doesn't rename the base spell name.

You people seem to be discounting the fact that they can make the size and material effects of spells change and gorw with level just like the potency..

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You people seem to be discounting the fact that they can make the size and material effects of spells change and gorw with level just like the potency..

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^ this

123456789

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

because in every other final fantasy the spell effect is determined by its tier plus there is no mention that the effect itself will scale upon potency.
thats what im basing it on.

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except final fantasy games are all about being different from one another.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Probably won't work that way though... that in a sense would be keeping the same tiers. You have Fire I, then we get to X level you get Fire II now they remove Fire I from your list, highly doubt they would do something like this.

I'd imagine it more like you learn Fire and it has (optimal rank 5), then eventually you get upgraded and and it becomes Fire (optimal rank 25). Accomplish the same thing but doesn't rename the base spell name.

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There's no reason why they couldn't, it would just require a little extra programing. Yoshi-P has and is putting in a lot of little details, including jump for no apparent reason other than to have it. I think he would at least consider this request by oldtime FF fans if he hasn't thought of it already.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You people seem to be discounting the fact that they can make the size and material effects of spells change and gorw with level just like the potency..

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They can, but it doesn't mean they will.

I agree with OP. I've played all of the FF from 1 to XIV. New spells was always something I looked forward to, new summons etc. It was always exciting to level up and then get to see the new animation. That was something the FF series was known for. Well not just the spells but having really visually appealing graphics. Don't get me started on how boring the WS in this game looks also ;~;

Then again those games were made by the old school team, Hironobu Sakaguchi and such who quit when enix merged and went to Mistwalker.

Them wanting to reuse the same animation over and over is kind of lame. Although I think (could be wrong) in the future they are fixing the graphic animations and such. I hope. >.>; They probably have plans to add way more stuff with the Jobs. I'm not too worried. :>

I don't see them doing away with higher tier spells, they will more than likely add them to the jobs as -ra , -ga , -ja and keep the classes with the simple forms so they can have more room for other classes abilities. I also don't see them just making the higher tiered ones just an increase in damage and look. For the sake of an animation change they will probably alter the animation of the simple spells to keep them interesting to cast and have a difference between a level 1s fire and a 50s fire. That may not take place till later though has they said they were reusing some graphics.

For BLM at least, the higher tiered forms like fira may see added effects like burn added or maybe -STR added as a debuff for casting the spells. Then again this is all guessing, they may just add a single ability (like Blood Rite) that changes fire into fira for a single cast so that you don't have 6 new actions to set and can't spam strong debuffing nukes. Having abilities that change the basic 6 spells would be an interesting concept. The same could be done to WHM, an enhanced cure could add a temporary boost to def or a stoneskin like effect.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Them wanting to reuse the same animation over and over is kind of lame. Although I think (could be wrong) in the future they are fixing the graphic animations and such. I hope. >.>; They probably have plans to add way more stuff with the Jobs. I'm not too worried. :>

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They didn't say they were reusing the same animation... they said they are eliminating tiers. Wait and see is the best answer for everything.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

They didn't say they were reusing the same animation... they said they are eliminating tiers. Wait and see is the best answer for everything.

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They did actually say that.

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* The inner workings of actions will be prioritized in 1.20, and graphical resources will be reused where possible

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This obviously can change, but graphical resources being reused does mean recycling graphics which seems to be, as with everything else, "just for now."

Kinda talked this over with a friend of mine this morning. I hope that they have plans to make the visual for these spells more noticeable, for lack of a better term, as your level up. Since there's only 50 levels and most games haven't had more than 4 tiers of spells, I think a visual upgrade should come in (right now since cap is 50) at 15, 30 and 45.

My friend's gripe (which could be unfounded since actual skills haven't been discussed) are with tiered healing spells disappearing. There are situations where using a lower tier cure spell is more mp efficient than just spamming the same spell over and over and over again, especially if you only have one spell at level 50. But again, we don't know what plans they have for multiple spells and the actual mp cost of a max level cure yet.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

They did actually say that.



This obviously can change, but graphical resources being reused does mean recycling graphics which seems to be, as with everything else, "just for now."

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Yeah I read that too..... too bad it wasn't stated directly after the tiered spell elimination potion or it might hold some water. It was a general thing directed at all classes and actions, not specifically magic spells.


Simple answer... wait and see. It could go either way and either way I don't care. :D

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To address these issues, patch 1.20 will see the adjustment and redistribution of actions for all classes. New actions will be added, and individual combos (name tentative) introduced. Further down the track, patch 1.21 will usher in the job system, which will serve as a new focal point for character development.
* The inner workings of actions will be prioritized in 1.20, and graphical resources will be reused where possible. Cosmetic changes are expected to commence from patch 1.21 and continue in stages ahead of Version 2.0.

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New actions will be added might be reusing animations... we don't know. Wait And See..

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

To be fair, nukers haven't "effectively existed" in any FF game other than 13 so far. In any other game they have become inferior to melee DPS sooner or later.

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Certainly have to disagree there. Just some quick examples: Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and A2 you could use a Summoner with a Red Mage's Doublecast and wipe the floor with back to back summons. In FFT I think it was a Black Mage with mathematics could hit any enemy on the screen with their strongest magic spells costing 0MP. FFX Lulu was the only one to be able to effectively dish out damage to Flans and some other monster types that you'd run into frequently.

I see no problem with voicing a concern when it is not addressed directly in the copy. There are a few scenarios where it slipped their mind or its in planning or the like. If the next communication clears this up great. I think half the fun of getting new skills is the fact they look awesome right? There is a reason FF is known for summons in every iteration since 6.

That said I think the concern about cure spells probably deserves its own thread. And that would be a valid question too.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

They can, but it doesn't mean they will.

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Doesn't mean they won't either. If you want it, why don't you make a Poll post and ask for Likes.

No body is going to say they don't want spells to get kooler looking as they progress.

To me in this game tiered spells mean nothing tbh once you learn the next set of spells the old ones are unset because of space needed on the action bar.

Yoshida says graphic enhancements will roll out eventually (I read Japanese forums).
They are just working on the battle system for the moment.
One of the biggest selling points of FF14 or any FF series is its awesome graphics so they are not goona keep
boring spell effects forever.

This could take away a lot of the potential strategies involving magic type damage. Casting classes were always about finding a balance of damage, cast time, and mp consumption. Now they won't be able to do any of that... spell potency, cost, and cast time all determined by your level? Mob almost dead, have enough mp for what would have been Fire II for the kill, but are now helpless because of the system? Yeah, sounds completely stupid to me.

As per the usual, I'll wait and see, but on paper, 1.2 sounds like a heaping serving of bad ideas. Maybe this is all to make the adv jobs seem that much better.

From the description, it looks like the upper tiers will still be accounted for:

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Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.

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He did not indicate how one would choose to use a lower potency Fire in cases where you may have no need to use the highest tier of that spell though. That is the only part I am concerned about because situations do arise where a lower potency spell would be needed instead of full boar higher tier spells of the same kind.

It just seems to me that they would plan to account for the situations where that would be useful and make that convenience available within the new system. Perhaps this thread will bring up the need for further explanation on that.

In a hypothetical situation, I just can't see them forcing a healer to use a Cure III to merely cap off a player's hp during battle where that healer would normally use the lower tier Cure to not waste mp. I have faith that plans are in order to compensate for this.

I could easily see something like this:

Fire by level

1 - puff of fire and smoke
10 - increases to a torch
20 - increases to campfire-sized
30 - increases to bonfire-sized
40- minor eruption not dissimilar to ifrit
50- full sized eruption
and 50 flare-minor armageddon

Why start whining when the patch isn't already out?