Please consider: Apartments to those that don't own a house first.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Wrong there is a morals and saying being totally selfish is just as moral as people who arn't is an out and out lie.

I didn't say we should, but god forbid players try to ease a burden for the time being -_-

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You are completely missing my point. What you view as morally inapprpriate behavior (multi-house owning, property flipping), others might view as acceptable practices of modern capitalism. You CANNOT saddle the playerbase with an arbitrary moral code, whether you like it or not.

Square can set "rules", or "terms", with clear consequences for those who flout or break them, but any "honor code" invented by the playerbase is total rubbish and holds no real bearing outside of potential social repercussions (blacklisting "early hunt pullers", run sellers, or other practitioners of concepts you don't personally agree with).

I really do wish they would put a lock on house owners accounts for the first week. I have a house in Lav beds, and i understand about the housing space limit and wanting more storage..but there are people who doesnt even have a place to store their things in the first place. I'm not talking about some snot nose new person who's just joining the game but some veteran players who's been playing for years and still never managed to get a home some how.

While I know it won't happen. I wish they would add that.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

[...]but any "honor code" invented by the playerbase is total rubbish and holds no real bearing outside of potential social repercussions

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Note that this is pretty much what laws IRL are. Laws have no substance - they gain relevance because we as populace have agreed to heed them and designated law enforcement units to increase the efficiency of "social repercussions". "Don't kill innocent people" is nothing but an arbitrary honor code we want to see enforced, hence we made it law. And even a dictator cannot hope to see their demands enforced without people supporting them.

Video games like to play with that bit - killing might not be universally considered a bad thing. Some might consider killing the old and weak fair game. Or suppressing a gender/race. Conflict between law and justice is a common theme - public uprisings because the laws clash with the underlying honor code of the populace.

That said, I wouldn't knock off "arbitrary honor codes" just like that. It's how we govern our life.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Snip

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http://65.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md...gqko2_1280.png

All I got from this post >w> ♥

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Originally Posted by FearTheOldBlood

Oh i just mean your signature is correct. A cash shop as big as the one we have in this game should not exist in a sub MMO. There should be in-game ways to obtain these items or they should be way less expensive. $25 for a moogle mount? That's half a new game...

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This is a tiny cash shop for a mmo.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

There should be a week long lock preventing those that currently own a FC house or a private residence from obtaining an apartment.

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No there shouldn't be. Typical greed.

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Originally Posted by Charlayy

No there shouldn't be. Typical greed.

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But if you have a house...why the hell do you even need an apartment to begin with? The FC house I agree is stupid, but owning your own house? You don't need an apartment, sorry.

Man, this discussion happens in every thread about housing. It's this whole idea of "As long as Yoshi himself doesn't step in and tell me I'm doing something wrong then what I'm doing is obviously fine". Based on how many people feel this way you'd think that they actually would step in at some point but I figure that they don't have time or just don't really care that much at this point. I personally don't own a house right now because it's like putting a dog collar around my neck and promising SE that I'll keep my sub up non-stop.

As an aside: what exactly are folks spending all of these hundreds of millions that they make off of re-selling on? I've never got this. Are you hording hunting hawks? Are you doing this for a sense of power? Maybe they're just hording money for the sake of seeing the gil counter go up? I can't think of a single thing in this game that would require a cash flow like that is all I guess. It's honestly easier to justify greed in the real world because at least I can buy something other than a shinier pair of pants when it comes to actual money.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But if you have a house...why the hell do you even need an apartment to begin with? The FC house I agree is stupid, but owning your own house? You don't need an apartment, sorry.

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I can't place anymore stuff in my house.

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Originally Posted by Harlow

As an aside: what exactly are folks spending all of these hundreds of millions that they make off of re-selling on? I've never got this. Are you hording hunting hawks? Are you doing this for a sense of power? Maybe they're just hording money for the sake of seeing the gil counter go up? I can't think of a single thing in this game that would require a cash flow like that is all I guess. It's honestly easier to justify greed in the real world because at least I can buy something other than a shinier pair of pants when it comes to actual money.

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Reselling stuff is clean money ( I know sounds hilarious :D) - it has no additional costs.While crafting etc. is just endless earning and spending.

I am just a poor blacksmith making kettles most of the time, but when I started crafting I realized one thing - You can never have enough gil.

When I was just a simple white mage I had about 1M and was happy with it.

Then I started crafting some low level items and was happy with having few millions. This allowed me to start buying simple things like furniture for my new FC room.

Then I hit level 60 and was... shocked! I needed gear, I needed melds. That moment my perception of gil shifted. Suddenly I was not even able to afford crafting materials because HQ mats cost more than HQ products and I lacked the gear/melds to compete with the market.

Gear and melds cost money. A lot of money. You can look at someone making 100M through resale of a house and alone it seems like they will never ever need more gil.

But if they decided to start crafting... the full crafting gear about 30M (depends on the market). Melding? Easily 10M a piece => 13 slots x 10M => 130M + 30M = 160M. And help derp you are minus 60M and you wonder where did all the gil go~

tl;dr A lot of money for one person is not enough money for another one.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

But if they decided to start crafting... the full crafting gear about 30M (depends on the market). Melding? Easily 10M a piece => 13 slots x 10M => 130M + 30M = 160M. And help derp you are minus 60M and you wonder where did all the gil go~

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If you're crafting then why the heck are you buying crafting gear? Kind of defeating the purpose there. Unless if you're doing it at the early point of a patch to earn hundreds of millions back in return. In which case... well, you're at the point where you don't even need gil anymore.

Also, if you're spending that much on melding, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

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Aren't you a little bitter popoto :3

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

If you're crafting then why the heck are you buying crafting gear? Kind of defeating the purpose there.

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Maybe because it's locked behind specialists? You know you can have only three... but I was talking about the instance when a non-crafter would start crafting. Some people make their gil by other means than crafting. Or maybe they just need pentamelded gear for raiding. etc.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Unless if you're doing it at the early point of a patch to earn hundreds of millions back in return. In which case... well, you're at the point where you don't even need gil anymore.

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Unless you are not a full-time crafter. Personally I make enough to buy stuff and have left enough gil to give it away... yet I have no where enough gil to pay for max crafting melds.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Also, if you're spending that much on melding, you're doing it wrong.

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Here you got me interested. How do you make grade V materias break less during overmelding?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

tl;dr A lot of money for one person is not enough money for another one.

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I mean, I can dig that concept having all the crafts at 60 myself and having friends that, like, a million gil is legit money to them but after patch day rolls by and you get your new crafting gear in one way or another and meld it up what do you spend gil on for the next literal year until the next set drops? Taking it one step further why even bother going all out with melds when you can make a ton of cash even just being geared in a junky old set of HQ Chimerical Felt gear with standard melds? I've honestly all but run out of things to buy and I'm not even a dude who goes out of his way to make money or anything at this point. If I start getting low I just pound out a few specialist glamour pieces, make a couple mil and I don't have to worry about it.

Point being, it's beyond easy to make cash in a legitimate fashion in this game to cover anything you could ever want. There's no reason for folks to do morally dubious stuff like screw other players over and buy up as much housing as they can just because Yoshi and team didn't think a housing feature all the way through again and there's nothing to outright stop them.

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Originally Posted by Harlow

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Personally, whenever there is more gil than I need I either waste it on getting few more points through better melding or I give away stuff to other players. You can never run out of people who could use something ^^"

It heavily depends on the server of course. For example on Ragnarok it seems like everyone and their mother is crafting so unless you want to spend entire day changing prices the good stuff doesn't sell much.

Making gil being "beyond easy" is subjective. If the player makes 500k a day etc, and they can make 50M in few hours by resale it's a big difference... tbh I kinda doubt that the rich crafters would bother that much with it, because as you said, they can make gil when they want to.

btw. In my opinion, I know it sounds crazy, if you (general you) don't have a house it's better for you that someone who wants to resell it buys it. Why? Because if the person buys it to sell you can buy it from them with enough gil/friendship/eRP or whatever they want from you. The house is still available - it just costs slightly more.

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Originally Posted by FearTheOldBlood

Your signature is on point

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And your signature...

No blood! No bone! No ash! *goes to cry in a corner*

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Personally, whenever there is more gil than I need I either waste it on getting few more points through better melding or I give away stuff to other players. You can never run out of people who could use something ^^"

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Ah, the trick I use is that I've given myself a gil floor of 20mil. That gives me a bunch of cash to work with if anything weird comes up and it lets me make minions and stuff for my friends without much worry.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Making gil being "beyond easy" is subjective. If the player makes 500k a day etc, and they can make 50M in few hours by resale it's a big difference

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This just kind of comes back to the question of "why would anyone need to make 50m in a few hours?" I guess. Maybe Balmung just has an awesome economy or something but I'm struggling to think of a single thing that's over 12mil and that's, like, the hunting hawk because people don't play the diadem much. I can, off the top of my head, think of a handful of things that you could do at level 60 to make well over 100k a day without ever even touching a crafting class.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

btw. In my opinion, I know it sounds crazy, if you (general you) don't have a house it's better for you that someone who wants to resell it buys it. Why? Because if the person buys it to sell you can buy it from them with enough gil/friendship/eRP or whatever they want from you. The house is still available - it just costs slightly more.

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I mean, if by "slightly" you mean four times the original cost? Also the scenario where someone happens to befriend a house hunter and they like you so much that they sacrifice 20 million gil that they bought that small plot specifically to make because you're such a good guy seems shaky at best.

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Originally Posted by Harlow

I mean, if by "slightly" you mean four times the original cost?

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One of the issues could be that the plots have certain price set by the game while the actual price is much higher due to the limited amount of plots and the gil in such amount being easily available. Then the players who achieve the in-game price feel like they are being cheated by the players selling the houses for profit, because they think that were it not for the reseller they could have bought it for the original price.

I don't think so. It could happen of course, but more likely the plot would have been bought by some other player and being lost forever.

A plot being on the marker for higher price is not perfect, but it seems better than plot being off the market entirely. For example if someone wanted my house they would have to take it over my dead sub :P (or wait till I move somewhere else). On the other hand if I bought the house to make money they would be able to get it for high enough price.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

One of the issues could be that the plots have certain price set by the game while the actual price is much higher due to the limited amount of plots and the gil in such amount being easily available. Then the players who achieve the in-game price feel like they are being cheated by the players selling the houses for profit, because they think that were it not for the reseller they could have bought it for the original price.

I don't think so. It could happen of course, but more likely the plot would have been bought by some other player and being lost forever.

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There's a fault in your logic. If nobody had bought it for the act of reselling the house, then someone would have bought it because they actually wanted it at its game designated price. What you're actually doing is screwing that person out of money, or a house.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

There's a fault in your logic. If nobody had bought it for the act of reselling the house, then someone would have bought it because they actually wanted it at its game designated price. What you're actually doing is screwing that person out of money, or a house.

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Alright let's say that nobody would buy houses for profit.

What happens next?

People are going to complain that some RPers buy houses for their alts.

Let's say that there are no alts.

Then people are going to complain that person x does not decorate their house and just has it.

Let's say that all the people would decorate their houses.

Then people are going to complain that person x does not spend time in their house...

There would always be something. Yet in the case of resale the house is still on the market while in the other instances it's lost.

btw. All the players have the same chance to buy a house when the new wards are added. The last time that happened I took a day off from work to buy a mansion in Mist... I got stuck in Q and had to settle for a medium house in Goblet. Was I mad about the Q? Well of course. But it was fair race so I had to get over it.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Alright let's say that nobody would buy houses for profit.

What happens next?

People are going to complain that some RPers buy houses for their alts.

Let's say that there are no alts.

Then people are going to complain that person x does not decorate their house and just has it.

Let's say that all the people would decorate their houses.

Then people are going to complain that person x does not spend time in their house...

There would always be something. Yet in the case of resale the house is still on the market while in the other instances it's lost.

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Disregarding that these scenarios are all wild speculation on your part they do touch on how poorly planned the housing system was in the first place. I'm not sure why they settled on a housing system that had such a small and finite amount of homes. Was it because they thought that none of their servers would be overpopulated? Did they not expect the game to be as popular as it is? Why did it take them this long to finally come up with a system that's been in other MMOs for well over a decade now instead of just starting with apartments?

Considering that we are now forever trapped in this broken housing system though, yes, I'd rather have a person that will actually use the house in some way buy it instead of a person that has bought the house solely to resell it to a person that will actually use it at a grossly inflated price. These people aren't the FFXIV equivalent of Robin Hood by stealing from the slow to give to the rich. Please stop trying to paint the people that do this as somehow being philanthropists when they're doing exactly nothing to help out anyone but themselves.

They aren't philanthropists, they are greedy bastards, but they also aren't much different from people who buy stuff on MB fore resale.

I am judging it from the perspective of a person who wants to buy a house. If there is one plot and three players who are going to buy it, one being the player who can't get to the plot it time, one being the greedy bastard and one being a cute little miqote girl who wants to start her own flower garden, it's better if the greedy bastard buys it because then the player is able to buy the plot from them. Now I know that it is heart crushing that the little girl got beaten to it by the greedy bastard, but it leaves the plot open for whoever is willing to put in the effort to pay the greedy bill. It ain't nice, yet it's capitalism.

You are right, the system is broken. That's where I see the core of the problem, not the greedy sellers, but with the way the system is implemented. It's mind-blowing how difficult it is to add more housing in this game...

It would be nice if everyone could get a house, but I am afraid that such a thing would come at cost of making the housing entirely instanced on house by house basis... I am not sure many players would like such a thing. I have few friends who totally hate the idea and once the housing is freely available in instances they lose any interest in it. So I wouldn't be surprised if a noticeable part of the demand for housing came from it's limited availability.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

If there is one plot and three players who are going to buy it, one being the player who can't get to the plot it time, one being the greedy bastard and one being a cute little miqote girl who wants to start her own flower garden, it's better if the greedy bastard buys it because then the player is able to buy the plot from them. Now I know that it is heart crushing that the little girl got beaten to it by the greedy bastard, but it leaves the plot open for whoever is willing to put in the effort to pay the greedy bill. It ain't nice, yet it's capitalism.

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And then the little girl who really wanted her flower garden pays the greedy bastard triple the cost of the house, then pays for the house, and gets her garden.

What was gained? Nothing for anyone but the greedy person.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But if you have a house...why the hell do you even need an apartment to begin with? The FC house I agree is stupid, but owning your own house? You don't need an apartment, sorry.

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I mentioned owning an FC house, not simply being a part of it. Same with owning a FC house "room" I didn't include that specifically because the FC can collapse at any moment and your room is toast.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And then the little girl who really wanted her flower garden pays the greedy bastard triple the cost of the house, then pays for the house, and gets her garden.

What was gained? Nothing for anyone but the greedy person.

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The girl got house, the greedy person got gil. Two players are happy. 2 happy people > 1 happy person... tho it changes nothing for the homeless you :P

Now in all seriousness. Higher price is decreasing the amount of players being able to afford the plot and so increasing your chance of buying the plot - if you have enough gil.

The greedy player is not changing the game much, the plot is still there - they are just making it cost a little bit more. (ironically fixing SE's mistake of keeping the pricing so low when the demand is so high and plots limited).

As I said before buying houses is fair for everybody. The person who gets to the plot first can do whatever they want to do with it even if you dislike what they do with it.

Part of the reason we got here is because of people's greed in regards to houses...and now you are asking those who brought us here not to greed again. Sounds like a very poor plan xD.

As long as it's not possible to have 3 apartments, one per ward. One of the main problems is people owning multiple properties, which makes it inconvenient to others.

Honestly if it were up to me you would only be able to have one property. That way the entire server has enough for everyone

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Part of the reason we got here is because of people's greed in regards to houses...and now you are asking those who brought us here not to greed again. Sounds like a very poor plan xD.

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If you are talking about OP, they are asking SE to block the house owners from being able to buy apartments for a week. That's doing something evil on the premise of doing good.

In my opinion Yoshida learnt his lesson and the apartment space is flexible enough to be multiplied based on the demand (in the best case scenario on server by server basis and without waiting for patches).

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Originally Posted by Archaell

If you are talking about OP, they are asking SE to block the house owners from being able to buy apartments for a week. That's doing something evil on the premise of doing good.

In my opinion Yoshida learnt his lesson and the apartment space is flexible enough to be multiplied based on the demand (in the best case scenario on server by server basis and without waiting for patches).

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Ah, sorry, didn't read the topic and assumed he was talking about asking others not to buy :P. Totally my fault. I think there are enough apartments tho.

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Originally Posted by Harlow

Man, this discussion happens in every thread about housing. It's this whole idea of "As long as Yoshi himself doesn't step in and tell me I'm doing something wrong then what I'm doing is obviously fine".

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Except in this case the apartments preview specifically mentions that house owners can also own an apartment. Ie: the dev team are explicitly stating that it's ok to have one of each.

And in the 3.4 trailer it mentions not to worry about running out of apartments - they set it up so that they can add more easily enough.

Assuming we're talking about the same thing being wrong. I think house flipping is wrong and we see people being punished for it. I'm just commenting on the owning a house and apartment bit (for actual use and all that.)

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Here you got me interested. How do you make grade V materias break less during overmelding?

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Why why WHY would you overmeld grade V materia? Only a couple of pieces of gear would actually need it overmelded to hit the stat cap. And the pieces that could use it I currently refuse to overmeld because I don't currently need those stats to craft anything. Overmeld with IV and III materia. They're good enough and loads cheaper and more accessible.

From what I understand an apartment is just like a FC room?

I already have a house. I don't see why I would want to own an apartment.

I remember reading somewhere that they have the ability to increase the number of apartments as needed during the live letter discussions / pre-discussions.

They said that so people wouldn't worry, their system scales a great deal so they can add more to meet demand. They know of the super servers and are going to try and meet demand, they just don't want to take up server resources unnecessarily by adding 10,000 rooms when they only need 6,000.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I remember reading somewhere that they have the ability to increase the number of apartments as needed during the live letter discussions / pre-discussions.

They said that so people wouldn't worry, their system scales a great deal so they can add more to meet demand. They know of the super servers and are going to try and meet demand, they just don't want to take up server resources unnecessarily by adding 10,000 rooms when they only need 6,000.

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Yeah, I saw it in the live letter translation thread myself.

They can scale the apartments up if the initial amount doesn't meet demand.

That's very good.

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Originally Posted by eternalstar01

the apartment being not subject to auto-demolition is very attractive to me.

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So long as the feature is developed in such a way that there are a fixed number of apartments, which seems to be the case, then it will be subject to auto-demolition. I don't know whether it will be on the same terms as housing plots, but it will exist. If it doesn't start off with the auto-demolition feature when first released, then it will be added later, as it was with the houses. (It'd be better to have the system just start off with auto-demolition in place, so we could at least know in advance what the rules for it are. Being added later seems too much like a bait and switch.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

So long as the feature is developed in such a way that there are a fixed number of apartments, which seems to be the case, then it will be subject to auto-demolition. I don't know whether it will be on the same terms as housing plots, but it will exist. If it doesn't start off with the auto-demolition feature when first released, then it will be added later, as it was with the houses. (It'd be better to have the system just start off with auto-demolition in place, so we could at least know in advance what the rules for it are. Being added later seems too much like a bait and switch.)

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They already said it's not subject to it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They already said it's not subject to it.

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Nor were house plots ... until they changed their minds and added it after all. Either they'll have to change the system so that there is no fixed number, or they'll need to add a way to free up the limited number of apartments that exist. One or the other is going to have to happen at some point.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And then the little girl who really wanted her flower garden pays the greedy bastard triple the cost of the house, then pays for the house, and gets her garden.

What was gained? Nothing for anyone but the greedy person.

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Greedy person gets reported and banned.

You lock people out of it and I bet you people with toons (that are level 50...takes what...a week to get?) will purchase them out of spite anyways.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The purpose of the apartment system was to encourage those who didn't have a private space to be able to obtain one.

There should be a week long lock preventing those that currently own a FC house or a private residence from obtaining an apartment.

Otherwise, we will all be back at square one when this first started. Some people owning multiple properties, just because they can.

Please take this into consideration before 3.4 drops. Thank you.

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This is illogical.
The apartment also encourages some house owners switching to apartment for the "No TIMER".
So do we need to suggest let house owners get an apartment first?

Of course when apartment runs out of free rooms, we will start seeing ppl suggest to take away others' rooms
for the reason "if you don't access your apartment then you don't need it".
And this is what everyone deserves to have eventaully, I am looking forward to it.

Assuming 4.0 supports ishgard housing and apartments since 4.0 will have more RAM since it won't support ps3