cool, I really think this game needed housing at release. I like that they will give us a garden but I'm worried that they have not mentioned anything about a mailbox.
YoshiP DoL/DoH translated post
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11-10-2011, 01:56 PMLoLo
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11-10-2011, 01:56 PMShyd
The player housing stuff blew my mind! Hope it all gets implemented and then some!
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11-10-2011, 01:59 PMKingZeus
please add the legendary fish into the game! >_<
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11-10-2011, 02:04 PMRane
Yet another great post from Yoshi-P. I think he really gets where this game needs to go, and I look forward to getting there. Hell, I'm even beginning to enjoy the journey!
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11-10-2011, 02:28 PMLiennSuch long text just to have me /facepalm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
So now the dev team motto is "Save the e-peen! Save the World!" Indeed adding hardcore content will fix all gathering and crafting issues of the game...not!
But thanks to Bay for posting it! At least now we know there will be nothing for DoL/H before 2.0...and way less than expected after too. -
11-10-2011, 02:51 PMMeowyWowieSingle best thing I've heard coming from Yoshi P.Quote:
I have seen many posts asking, "What happened to being able to play only as a Disciple of the Land or Hand?"
This was a statement from the previous team, and I am very sorry if any of you were under the impression that you can experience all aspects of FFXIV by playing only as a specific class. I would like to officially retract this statement. I'm very sorry for the confusion surrounding this.
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11-10-2011, 03:06 PMPrettyPrincess
He mentions decorating thine exterior...what about the interior?
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11-10-2011, 03:49 PMKaplanHomahru
Amazing post :D I was just thinking about personal airships the other day and I can't wait. And I'm all for an engaging main scenario for DOW/M
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11-10-2011, 04:09 PMLienn
Just because a battle is meant to be epic doesn't mean it need to be battled. We do could have different perceptions of the same battle depending of the discipline you using...like as DoW/M you being able to straight fight it while as DoL you needing to sabotage a bridge or something (like damaging pillar or cutting ropes) while the companion NPC hold the battle part or having to fix a buch of parts from a damaged cannon or airship as DoH then make ammo and shoot the enemies while companion was distracting them.
...but now we already know that, probably, with the change of main scenario to a battle-oriented content, not only the DoL/H with lose even more importance ingame but we allso might be losing all the companion-related content since DoW/M don't actually need companion for battle content. -
11-10-2011, 04:22 PMInaacaMaybe you should go back and reread Yoshi's post again. At least half of that monster post goes toward addressing exactly this argument, and the reasons why he thinks it isn't a good route to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
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11-10-2011, 04:26 PMCSLionheart
That was one of the best, most promising Yoshi posts I've read in a long time. And that's saying something, since there have been some awesome ones lately. I'm thrilled that the main scenario will require battle classes in the future. The lack of any sort of challenge in the main storyline was something I hated from day 1, and the dev team has finally answered my plea ^^
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11-10-2011, 04:47 PMLiennNo, he's not. i'm talking about different perceptions of the same battle...he was taking about different battles directed to each discipline. This is slightly different. I did notice my post was unclear...but i meant like you having a battle like "they fight at bridge until it falls, then they're attacked by an airship"...this would happen regardless of the class or discipline..it's the very same event...just the role you would take in this event would change based on your class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inaaca
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11-10-2011, 04:58 PMEstelliosQuote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
It's longer but I don't want to quote several paragraphs. I really don't think you read these things Lienn.Quote:
Even if there are quests with different angles, such as scenario A1, scenario A2, scenario A3, they will be no different from scenario A1. It’s possible to flesh out some ideas, fix the axis of time and create "A1", "A2", and "A3" as parallel episodes. However, in this case, after clearing episode A, once you play episode B, you're already heading towards the future of the scenario and if you then play episode A2 or A3, narrative paradoxes will develop.
So, you're thinking now, "Well, how about if you create a episode A2 version 2 in case you play episode A2 after clearing episode B…" This is just not possible. For a console game, there is a finite end point so something like this is possible. You can even play again from the beginning. But for an MMO, as long as it is being updated, the "what ifs" can continue on infinitely.
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11-10-2011, 05:02 PMLiennSo i'll quote your quote lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
By parallele episodes he means like those old path books...you get to a point and it will split in several parallel paths, each one tellling the very same period of the story but in a different way...maybe in a different place, maybe in a different army...the thing is that these parallel events are different between each other and here I'm talking about the very same event.Quote:
Even if there are quests with different angles, such as scenario A1, scenario A2, scenario A3, they will be no different from scenario A1. It’s possible to flesh out some ideas, fix the axis of time and create "A1", "A2", and "A3" as parallel episodes. However, in this case, after clearing episode A, once you play episode B, you're already heading towards the future of the scenario and if you then play episode A2 or A3, narrative paradoxes will develop.
So, you're thinking now, "Well, how about if you create a episode A2 version 2 in case you play episode A2 after clearing episode B…" This is just not possible. For a console game, there is a finite end point so something like this is possible. You can even play again from the beginning. But for an MMO, as long as it is being updated, the "what ifs" can continue on infinitely.
It's simple to understand...i'm talking about a linear story...he's talking about a branching story. -
11-10-2011, 05:03 PMBaxter
new crafting/gathering mini game sounds fun. Using tp/mp. This bit of information alone is so much more than I could ask for.
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11-10-2011, 05:07 PMInaacaUm... sorry but... refer to the area I'm bolding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
He's talking about the same thing you are.Quote:
Even if there are quests with different angles, such as scenario A1, scenario A2, scenario A3, they will be no different from scenario A1. It’s possible to flesh out some ideas, fix the axis of time and create "A1", "A2", and "A3" as parallel episodes. However, in this case, after clearing episode A, once you play episode B, you're already heading towards the future of the scenario and if you then play episode A2 or A3, narrative paradoxes will develop.
So, you're thinking now, "Well, how about if you create a episode A2 version 2 in case you play episode A2 after clearing episode B…" This is just not possible. For a console game, there is a finite end point so something like this is possible. You can even play again from the beginning. But for an MMO, as long as it is being updated, the "what ifs" can continue on infinitely.
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11-10-2011, 05:18 PMMunbaThis is... really AWESOME to hear. :) Can't frikin' wait.Quote:
Another thing we have planned for housing is an underground facility for building boats and airships. (This will be implemented sometime after the release of 2.0) We will release an image for housing as soon as possible, so please look forward to this patiently.
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11-10-2011, 05:22 PMLiennHe's talking story-wise. Like i said...they would be branching in his example...A1, A2 and A3 would take the very same spot in the story...he explains this later...this is why he says that both would bring issues...Quote:
Originally Posted by Inaaca
Well...i saw this coming and know this might end with the entire block of text filled with bold marks...but w/e =P
i'm not talking about A1, A2 and A3...i'm talking about A...just like that rank 46 mission is...it's the very same for every discipline but the role you have there is different.Quote:
Even if there are quests with different angles, such as scenario A1, scenario A2, scenario A3, they will be no different from scenario A1. It’s possible to flesh out some ideas, fix the axis of time and create "A1", "A2", and "A3" as parallel episodes. However, in this case, after clearing episode A, once you play episode B, you're already heading towards the future of the scenario and if you then play episode A2 or A3, narrative paradoxes will develop.
So, you're thinking now, "Well, how about if you create a episode A2 version 2 in case you play episode A2 after clearing episode B…" This is just not possible. For a console game, there is a finite end point so something like this is possible. You can even play again from the beginning. But for an MMO, as long as it is being updated, the "what ifs" can continue on infinitely.
The way to avoid this is to have a flag so if you don't clear A1, A2, or A3 then you will not be able to reach episode B.
However, if you set it up so A1 is the Disciple of War/Magic one, A2 is the Disciple of the Land one, and A3 is the Disciple of the Hand one, it results in you not being able to move forward unless you play as every class. Creating these types of flags ultimately results in a loss of freedom.
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11-10-2011, 05:34 PMInaacaHe addresses that too. Your examples are different, but the idea is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Quote:
Also, the same goes for content that is intertwined with battles.
"While in the dungeon, if you do not have a Disciple of Land in your party, certain items will not drop. Inside the dungeon there will be doors that can only be opened by keys that can only be made by Disciples of the Hand."
While it is possible to plan and implement something like this, the below points ultimately display a number of problems.
* Battle classes would need to save a spot for a class with no battle proficiency (Stressful)
* Disciples of the Land and Hand will be bored during battles (Stressful)
* Battle balance would be off if we made Disciples of the Land and Hand count as party members (Stressful)
If we gave Disciples of the Land and Hand support abilities, then class identity would be destroyed. (I understand that there are comments like this though lol "It's fine! Wouldn't it be cool? Just try it for this dungeon!" So, I'm thinking maybe we can try it out just once if we have the time.)
With all this said, I really think it is better to create specialized content for each class.
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11-10-2011, 05:38 PMAlphaDragoonHe's saying that they thought about making story quests have a "crafter POV" and a "fighter POV" on the same quest...and that it wouldn't be a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Yoshida's basically saying, "Crafters = side jobs, battle classes ARE the main game". Sucks for crafters, but it makes sense. -
11-10-2011, 05:40 PMellohwellI know what you're saying. But what if the devs want to include a very serious battle in the story progression?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Sure, they can include crafters and gathers in this battle by having them man a catapult or pilot an airship or serve as a diversion, etc, but then this causes balance issues, and the fight will never be as serious as a fully combat-class oriented fight. And so, I guess this was the reason SE are making these changes; they want to add some serious fights into the main scenario questline.
SE said they are also adding systems so that crafters and gathers will have roles during large scale PvP, so it's not like these disciples have been forgotten entirely.
I really dont see the problem because there's still so much to do as a crafter/gatherer anyway (provided SE still focus on this aspect of the game and try to improve it).
Crafters and gatherers are so often marginalised but I dont see the main scenario as such an integral part to crafting/gathering gameplay anyway, so I personally dont care and understand where the devs are coming from with these changes. -
11-10-2011, 05:51 PMMihana
If they're removing this stuff then I'm curious as to what's the plan for stuff like Parley. Outside of the main storyline there's a few useless NPCs you can use it on, and then a few of the quests for classes. Personally it feels like the ability is a complete waste.
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11-10-2011, 06:05 PMBaxterI hope it burns alongside the old engine lol. That game is about as worse as the lagQuote:
Originally Posted by Mihana
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11-10-2011, 06:19 PMLiennIt's a completely different point. It was just an example of how "bad" would a mix of disciplines would work...irrelevant to what we were discussing ^^:Quote:
Originally Posted by Inaaca
Indeed. He was clear about wanting a battle-oriented game. If it's the way he wants to go there's nothing we can do...to bad that it will be like the last Rocky movie...they actually picked the worst path possible for FFXIV since now it not only will be facing WoW and the current gen battle-oriented MMOs but also FFXI. In the end they picked the path where 2 games of SE will be competing for the very same niche.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon
I do liked the original concepts of FFXIV and still think it can be a great (spin-off) game (since "the" FFXIV is the 2.0) so now, instead of going against the concepts Yoshida picked to build FFXIV under i prefer to just point the positive aspects the original FFXIV had and would still have (to both 2.0 and SE) by staying as a spin-off game since it always was targeting exactly that players (mainly casual players) FFXI lost due it's HD/party-based concepts.
You see...this is a very simple example of a benefit that having the original FFXIV as spin-off would have...2.0 wouldn't need to give a crap to non-battle content...it could just do a fast, automated crap for DoL/H like FFXI and the other current MMOs have, leaving the more complex system to the original game.
Not everything needs to be about battle in a game. If he wants FFXIV to be about battle, SE should be nice and also leave the option for those that prefer battle as a secondary aspect of the game! ^^ I wouldn't mind buying the original FFXIV again if it happens to become a spin-off (obviously assuming they resume the alpha/beta test and, this time, release it as complete as it should've been released the first time). -
11-10-2011, 06:32 PMInaacaThen what in the world are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Yoshi addresses, among other things:
-The same quest from different viewpoints depending on class.
-Separate parallel quests for each class dealing with the same situation.
-Classes working together within the same quest.
What are YOU talking about, if not any of these? He pretty much covers the bases here. -
11-10-2011, 07:05 PMJunpeiI Think hes been watching too much NCIS! How do you get a boat out of your basement!?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat
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11-10-2011, 07:12 PMBetelgeuzah
He could have explained it a bit better, but the basic idea is there:
Creating all content to work in parallel is too time-consuming.
That doesn't mean the different roles of adventurers won't be represented in the future.
Content for DoL and DoH (both parallel and separate) is scheduled to arrive after the six main pillars of the economy foundation are in place and fleshed out.
The DoL and DoH should see their efforts shape the world in practice (through features like signing items and NPC's talking about you and such).
Whatever you guys think, I think this is all very interesting. He could have went into much more detail about such things as how they plan to cater for DoL/DoH-exclusive players, how they will try to avoid monopolization through everyone leveling all DoH/DoL to level cap (while not making it too hard to make a career out of them) and so on. It is all very relevant in this game as the economy is very player-centric and dependant. It in great part creates the identity of this game as a full-fledged virtual world rather than a themepark with other visitors. -
11-10-2011, 07:49 PMManafont
yet i dont see any battle information.
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11-10-2011, 08:12 PMHollandBecause that post is not about the skill changes for Battle classes. The one you are looking for will come when its ready to be showed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manafont
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11-10-2011, 08:45 PMLauro
WOOT "My Boss" Fayette Started this Thread :) hehe sorry "ingame/personal" joke :)
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11-10-2011, 08:55 PMKio
Gathering has always been my primary means of entertainment in MMOs (I suppose I'm a bit strange in that regards) and the one thing that constantly bothers me is that in this version I have absolutely no means of defending myself.
Sure we got stealth, but I feel that there was now a cheap excuse to move aggressive mobs back on top of a lot of node spawn points, and if you are slightly under level as you often will be, you will be attacked. You can't do anything but try to foot it away and hope their long distance attacks (which they all seem to have) don't kill you before you can escape their territory.
This system is terrible to me, especially since where I'm targeting is merely for leveling up purposes. If I wanted a sense of thrill and danger, there should be special areas with rarer items available in the wasted areas of Mor Dhona.
I really wish the crafting and gathering classes were, instead, just a skill subset that you leveled up on your character. It just feels boring and pointless to me to have all these "classes" that I leveled that have no uniqueness to them, no abilities, and what skills you do acquire are often renamed duplicates off one another. I hate having to completely change my class, be forced stripped naked, just to hit one node, or repair one earring, and then have to switch back and regear. But if a mob is about to strike me dead, I can't change classes and clear them lol. It's frustrating. Even all the minigames are completely the same. Having 2 types of nodes that require 2 different tools is sort of dumb to me too, I feel like it was thrown in there to having an excuse for someone to use the otherwise neglected subweapon gear slot.
What I'd love to see happen would be that the gathering or crafting tool was something equipped in the subweapon slot or something similar and didn't change your class from say, a 50 marauder to a 20 weaver. But if you had the weaving tool in that slot you could repair your gear and earn skill exp for weaving without class change. Or, like his example, you'd be able to craft the needed key with a goldsmith tool equipped in subslot, but not drag your party down because you're still the level 50 battle class.
For gathering, you could implement individual stealth spells like in XI for the battle classes and then everyone can enjoy the fun of having to sneak around mobs and explore. May even keep botters and rmt down since you would have to level a battle class in order to progress to higher level areas. -
11-10-2011, 09:02 PMBetelgeuzahIt seems that the purpose of these classes escapes you. It's not the gameplay mechanics that make them appealing (or not). It has never been the case, in any MMO.Quote:
I really wish the crafting and gathering classes were, instead, just a skill subset that you leveled up on your character. It just feels boring and pointless to me to have all these "classes" that I leveled that have no uniqueness to them, no abilities, and what skills you do acquire are often renamed duplicates off one another.
You know what feels pointless as a crafter or gatherer? That everything you do is actually pointless because the economy is largely irrelevant and perhaps even unexistent. You only do it for yourself at best. NPC's, quests and instances take care of your duties and you are left with a a simple "click a bush to collect mats you can turn into items for yourself which are weaker than what you can get from NPC's" system. Additionally "click a bush to collect mats you can turn into items which you can sell in the AH for money that is largely irrelevant when it comes down to it since best items are obtained elsewhere."
Granted, the "click a bush" part is irrelevant here as the mechanics are not really important, and there's nothing wrong with this kind of system if you can't make the mechanics any more meaningful. Still, you can have equipment and other gathering/crafting related items and knowledge you need to gather to become better at your task, so in that way the roles can be fleshed out without touching the mechanics. -
11-10-2011, 09:31 PMHiirNoivlThat's my whole point from our discussion on the Translation board!! XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
I'm glad you understand why I feel DoL is not needed. :3 -
11-10-2011, 09:34 PMBetelgeuzahWhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
Economy is largely irrelevant according to you?
Mats turned into items are weaker than what you can get from NPC's?
Money is largely irrelevant since best items are obtained elsewhere? Where, Dzemael?
The only thing that might be even remotely relevant as far as XIV is concerned is that DoH and DoL use a middle-man to sell their products. Even EVE does that and an economy simulator can't get any better than that game. -
11-10-2011, 10:02 PMHiirNoivl
lol As a DoL I'm basically an NPC. People mostly see all my DoL work behind my retainer. :3 "Who's going out gathering all that crap? I dunno." My DoL work is largely invisible. Sure I could dump all my inventory and rename my retainers after myself but... I've collected a lot of stuff. And besides, I want my DoL work to have more face time! Mail system will help with that a lot maybe. But only if it's quicker than heading to the MWs. I submit that it will not be.
Economy is irrelevant because gil is largely irrelevant. Gil is dirt. Want some of mine? XD
The best items are obtained elsewhere... from crafters. You don't get the best items from gathering. You get mats from gathering... making the items is the crafter's job.
See? We agree. -
11-10-2011, 10:09 PMChezenGiven time and resources (resources being the key word) I think it maybe it's possible to give DoL/H their own main story. It could be one that really has nothing to do with the battle main story. Maybe a storyline that starts because of early events in the main, but becomes a completely separate story by itself. Because it would be separate, their would be no need to be concerned about completing it at different times with the other storyline, and only a minimal amount of watching would be needed for continuity. Yoshi-P mentioned making some quests just for DoH/L, so what if he could turn that into their own "main story"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Airget
It would make DoH/L back to being on somewhat equal footing, add another layer of interesting content for the game, and give more content an adventurer may or may not choose to complete.
Just a thought. -
11-10-2011, 10:20 PMTheFatHousecatRepost for justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kio
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11-10-2011, 10:28 PMCendresAnd he's saying these things will not be happening anymore, which Lienn opposes. If I got where that convo was going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inaaca
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11-10-2011, 10:30 PMBetelgeuzahCrafted items have the gathering items' value attached to them. There will be no best items if there are no mats to make them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
If gatherers were not needed in the process of making said items, they would be rendered useless. This is the case for most MMO's but not FFXIV.
Money has value because money is used to obtain items that have had actual value ever since 1.19. Items have value because they make a difference in performance which they previously did not. Aiming towards improving performance is one of the main incentives of playing an MMORPG. After level 35 equipment is used to provide greatest improvements, so they have the greatest value as well.
Gil is hardly irrelevant, although you need larger quantities of it to make a difference as opposed to some other currencies.
Your DoL work can be seen in any armor or weapon that exists in the game. Just because there are no neonlights showing "MATS GATHERED BY HIIR NOIVL" doesn't mean your effort is invisible. -
11-10-2011, 11:04 PMHiirNoivlActually... that sounds pretty awesome... Having a storefront would be great. :D And a little sign "Gone Fishin'. See retainer..." when I'm out. XDQuote:
Your DoL work can be seen in any armor or weapon that exists in the game. Just because there are no neonlights showing "MATS GATHERED BY HIIR NOIVL" doesn't mean your effort is invisible
Well, I guess I'll go stock my retainer and go afk.
Peace out!