Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

Every iteration of RDM as a tank I have seen is just a bad clone of DRK... We have a magic based Tank already, shoehorning a FF classic to suit the desires of people to scared to Tank as a Samurai is simply destroying the identity of a second FF staple... The reason there is no sword DPS is because iconically the sword is wielded by heroes, heroes don't stand behind the enemy, they face it head on.

Aspects of Samurai would be completely lost if they didn't have things like the Samurai challenging their foe to a dual, the use of medium/ heavy armor, the tenants of Bushido i.e. death before dishonor... (cutting people from behind while they faced another was kinda not honorable)

In my unimportant humble opinion the "desperately needed" sword DPS would be much better served by RDM and BLU. Flame General Raubahn Aldynn's dual wielding heavy sword use would be perfect for the Kirito try hard wanna be's, and even makes sense given the heavy implication we will be focusing on Ala Mhigo soon.

The same could be said for RDM as his foil Ilberd seemed quite formidable with En-Fire and what appeared to be an advancement of the 1.0 sword skill Red Lotus Blade.

They'll add 2 new classes. One of them can be Tank or DPs and the other is solid healer. Just like they did with SMN and SCH. I said tank and DPs because many people keep arguing about a certain class whether it should be tank or DPs. Doing it this way, players get to chose the role for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yeol

They'll add 2 new classes. One of them can be Tank or DPs and the other is solid healer. Just like they did with SMN and SCH. I said tank and DPs because many people keep arguing about a certain class whether it should be tank or DPs. Doing it this way, players get to chose the role for it.

---

They aren't adding new classes, just jobs.

I'd like them to do another hybrid class with 2 jobs.
Tank/DPS or Tank/Heal like the current Heal/DPS from Arcanist.

I'm not expecting either tank or healer. 2 dps it is i guess, one for str, one for int to balance the drops. maybe a tank, for balancing leveling, though it is always just a temporary fix.

unless we get a class, that could fill more than 1 role. like a rdm i.e. that could be tank, caster or healer depending on the situation

I think we will get Samuari Dps and Red Mage healer but dunno what will we get for the 3rd job I don't think we need more tanks it's not going to make more people play them in anyway.

would rather a new dps over a tank or healer

Given the games heavy bias towards dps in everything. A red mage even as a sword wielding melee / healer could work particularly well. How much time do healers spend healing? It's not a great deal so a melee healer isn't inpossible.

The problem the game faces however in regards to new classes is "balance"
It really kills diversity and uniqueness between jobs astro is a pretty good example of this. The strive for balance makes it hard for ast to feel unique or have its own identity. And it's why people say there's no real room for a fourth healer or tank.

Everything is so interchangeable that it's in essence exactly the same.

Paladin for example was meant to be the defence orientated tank. But the game revolves so heavily around dps that defence isn't needed or desired. Thats why plds were shunned for a long time. Mitigation and incoming damage are laughable and that's why healers are expected to spend so much time doing dps.

If they shifted the game design to focus more on healing and mitigation and less on dps then you'd create room for a lot more variety and diversity in jobs. Where at present it just doesn't happen.

As a scholar for example there's no difference at all if my tank is a warrior or dark or paladin for example. It doesn't affect anything. It doesn't require me to play my role any differently because the tanks are so indifferent. It's not like a warrior needs more healing than a dark or paladin does. They all take the same damage from that tank buster. They're all exactly the same.

Adding a fourth tank then wouldn't make any difference or change anything either because again it would ultimately be exactly the same because "balance" and it'd be the same with a 4th healer which would just repeat whats basically happened with astrologian ending up as a whm clone because balance restricts diversity so much that ast can't possibly be unique.

Dps wise i'd love a Ranger class. true dps with no cast times or "support" that's what I originally envisioned ARC as all the way back in 1.0 they made it bard which was kinda sucky but livable, then they added minuet and "bow mage" and well that completely destroyed it.

I believe the game needs to move away from being so dps focussed and make healing and mitigation actually matter and be important. the problem at present is the game revolves exclusively around dps checks. and because of that the only thing that ever matters is dps. healing doesn't matter, neither does mitigation. no amount of healing or mitigation will save the group from a failed dps check for example (save for an extremely rare lb3 from a tank) incoming damage to tanks is such a joke that tanks can spend so much time in dps stances because the defensive stance isn't necessary because nothing hits hard enough to pose a threat. and healing is a joke which is why healers spend so much time in cleric stance and toss out little more than the occasional regen medica or adlo.

If they addressed this it would open up so many options for job diversity and individuality

What I would want:
Red Mage as Tank. Lots of support to the party, but magic oriented tanking. Kinda like blm met drk who met pld again. (Even though it would make a perfectly fine dps as well)

Blue Mage as healing support ranged magical DPS (Not TP/MP support like bards. Stuff similar to mantra and other things like white wind, vanish and mighty guard.

Dancer as an off healer. Able to dps using tp while in melee range or mp to be a caster.

Samurai as melee, because allot of people want a sword (not dagger) based dps. (Even though it would make a perfectly fine tank as well)

I don't know enough about FF jobs to speculate but I hope we get a hybrid dps some day. Like Diurnal / Nocturnal but as melee and caster stances. Perhaps Red Mage or Blue Mage or Dancer could fill this role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

Blue Mage as healing support ranged magical DPS (Not TP/MP support like bards. Stuff similar to mantra and other things like white wind, vanish and mighty guard.

Dancer as an off healer. Able to dps using tp while in melee range

---

These sound cool.

Red Mage: (Tank) Ideally, I think this would only work as a tank. The White Mage, Black Mage, and Red Mage represent an ancient trinity in the Final Fantasy franchise. FFXIV has a trinity as well, the Gaming Trinity of the Tank, Healer, and Damage Dealer. As White Mage and Black Mage fit well into two of those roles, Red Mage would be left the role of a Tank. How does a Red Mage tank? Using iconic Red Mage abilities. The en-element spells to generate aggro and inflict status conditions upon enemies. Abilities like Phalanx to reduce damage, Blink to increase evasion, lengthy self-heal buffs to increase survivability, etc... With heavy reliance upon Parry as a form of damage mitigation, much as Blocking exists for Paladin. Its not ideal and doesn't fit the Red Mage thematic 100%, but it's the best we can hope for.

Blue Mage: (DPS) I can't really see this as anything other than a DPS to be honest. It certainly has some utility in other games, and it can bring utility to FFXIV, but in the gaming trinity, it'd fall into a DPS more than a Healer or a Tank.

Samurai: (DPS) I don't see this being anything other than a DPS given Yoshi P's comments. That, and I'd like to see another armored DPS like Dragoon.

Dancer: (Healer) A melee, DoW healer would be a refreshing change of pace, especially if we get a DoM tank in the Red Mage. Using combo's and perhaps abilities which place debuffs on enemies which heal party members who strike said enemy.

Beastmaster: (DPS) A melee DPS for certain. Ever since I saw those tigers added, I've been wondering when they'd add this class. It'd be interesting to see a Whip as a weapon as well. Sort of the DoW version of a Summoner, I imagine. A melee, dot-laying DPS with a pet.

2 dps would be my most likely guess, i have to agree with the tank and ast having had to be made into a pseudo whm because of balance(not to mention it was literally described to be a replacement scholar OR whm) is this really what a NEW job in either role is going to be from now on?If so, or until such time as that they can find a way to balance both roles whilst keeping a full identity unique to each, it will be very...lackluster? Dont get me wrong, im all for another tank and healer, for queue time relief, but i fear that shoehorning something like RDM to be stuck to either meta would sort of wreck how awesome, fun and jack of all feel it could easilly have as a dps with less strict meta imo. Again this is all my opinion and i dont have any problems with whatever route they might take i just honestly have no idea how they would make a new tank completely different from the 3 we got. And a healer cvompletely different from the 3 we have. Logic would dictate if its only going to be 2, then it will be the 2 most needed roles, well i would say this until 2.4 rolled out. Tanks were in need bad and we got a brand new DPS to level...so going by that I can say its likely that they could roll out 2 dps this time around if thats all we are getting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

How does a Red Mage tank? Using iconic Red Mage abilities. The en-element spells to generate aggro and inflict status conditions upon enemies. Abilities like Phalanx to reduce damage, Blink to increase evasion, lengthy self-heal buffs to increase survivability, etc... .

---

Only problem is that Phalanx is not iconic, Dualcast is, En-elements and Magic Sword are from Mystic Knight. If the community wants a tank with Magic blade spells, magical cooldowns and self-heals/barrier cooldowns they should ask for Mystic Knight and not Red Mage.

I can only wait and see how much the FFXIV dev team will destroy the RDM personality to put it into the game...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fevelle

Only problem is that Phalanx is not iconic, Dualcast is, En-elements and Magic Sword are from Mystic Knight. If the community wants a tank with Magic blade spells, magical cooldowns and self-heals/barrier cooldowns they should ask for Mystic Knight and not Red Mage.

I can only wait and see how much the FFXIV dev team will destroy the RDM personality to put it into the game...

---

yea most of the rdm tank ideas are just making mystic knight tank, which i am OK with. I want both in the game, so id rather RDM not take away Mystic Knight and be that tank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ADVSS

yea most of the rdm tank ideas are just making mystic knight tank, which i am OK with. I want both in the game, so id rather RDM not take away Mystic Knight and be that tank

---

I can say I would love to wear the Mystic Knight's iconic FFV armor on my character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

snip

---

Really?

I could see both Red and Blue mage fitting into any of the 3 rolls.

No matter what they put them into, I hope they force RDM on the front line.

They should add one for everyone. I get people love to DPS, but there are people like myself who rather healer or tank.
Be fair and add 1 for ea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraluna

They do not really need another 'me too' healer as introduced in HW.

What they should look at is reworking the Astro to move it away from WHM, adding more differentiation.
It uses the core abilities of the whm - and as such will always be thought of as a semi-clone of that class.

---

I agree. AST is a lil bit of disappointment for me. It's a glorified WHM with card tricks and
most of the time you're praying to the Twelve you're getting Balance or at least Arrow cards.
They still have no idea what to do with the Noct stance and it's been well over a year.
So I am hoping the next healer can bring something nice to the table. It just feels like they
tried to do something new with AST but they just fell back and made WHM's sister.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fevelle

Only problem is that Phalanx is not iconic, Dualcast is, En-elements and Magic Sword are from Mystic Knight. If the community wants a tank with Magic blade spells, magical cooldowns and self-heals/barrier cooldowns they should ask for Mystic Knight and not Red Mage.

I can only wait and see how much the FFXIV dev team will destroy the RDM personality to put it into the game...

---

I was mostly going off my experiences in FFXI, in which those were iconic Red Mage spells. That said, Mystic Knight seems like it would be too close to Paladin or Dark Knight to successfully get into the game at this point. I'd be happy seeing Red Mage fill the spot and use it's, "Jack of all Trade's," theme toward the goal of tanking. The original Red Mage healed and DPS'd, if I'm remembering the first Final Fantasy game right. It seems to me that's a great way to generate threat and survive when taking damage. It bends these aspects of the Red Mage toward a single goal, which was ever the strength of the class. The only difference is, in FFXIV, the end goal is pre-determined by the role system, rather than the player's playstyle. We sacrifice the player's ability to choose in this case, but it's not like we haven't done that with existing classes anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

snip

---

yea the new tank thing would be hard to do, but mystic knight could fit, though it had mostly debiffs and damage dealing sword enhancements. I like the idea of a sleep sword or stun sword, things i see a tank could use for both pvp and pve. Much like this iteration of DRK though, i slightly agree, except the en-spells definitely would be a mystic knight(Rune fencer you might recognize from 11) because red mage is so popular, like dark knight they COULD do what they did with drk and make it a tank so more people will play it, but i dont want this to be a repeat. I can also see SAM being either a tank or dps and the same rule would apply. as i see it if both are implemented and have to have 1 be a tank id take sam over rdm. then again, looking at palace of the dead which besides being what it is, i think theyre watching results of different party comps and i also swear DRG is a tank whenever i enter potd.

If dancer was a healer - i'd love to see the character dance at the person they were healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aillith

If dancer was a healer - i'd love to see the character dance at the person they were healing.

---

as long as they periodically smile and wink at the person im down with that

I hope not.
With AST SE have shown they have no idea how to design novel healers and balance them effectively. You had a really interesting mechanic with Synastry, then you turned it into Divine Seal 2.0; nice job, you incompetent spods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glasya

I hope not.
With AST SE have shown they have no idea how to design novel healers and balance them effectively. You had a really interesting mechanic with Synastry, then you turned it into Divine Seal 2.0; nice job, you incompetent spods.

---

No they had an opportunity to just put time mage in as a healer and didnt want to commit entirely - as a result we got a dilapidated healer that started off with low potencies, because i truly believe it was designed to seem-lessly switch in combat as whm or sch at will, and they didnt do this because "too stronk". So better than that idea(i had seen too many instances of a whm dying and noct ast being screwed in 8 mans) they just upped its potencies and gave synastry a (clemency) effect. This, I feel like is where the entire idea went bad. I mean at the root of it, if youre gonna make a tank/healer be half of both healers/tanks, thats...thats just not good identity design, but if the idea is either or at a moments notice, then you have a good fill in. which is all it ends up becoming. The meta has to become looser or even tighter for both of the crucial roles, before they can just add one, but the meta itself is sort of what ruins it when it comes to role/job design. This is why I feel like 2 dps is almost risk free. Almost. They can do DPS pretty alright. MCH being a gun bard, no thanks. They have to look at gameplay in this next expansion, and I feel like the smartest move is to take a while longer on tank and healer especially, until they can find a way. Its that reason alone I almost hope for 2 jobs tops- fine make em dps. Spend another year to calculate and formulate what makes a new tank or healer new and great.

I'm calling it now - SAM tank, RDM healer, BLU DD. The only job out of these three that won't be horribly mangled would be possibly SAM, but we've seen from DRK and SCH that they're fine rewriting jobs from the ground up and adding some flavour that reminds us what the jobs used to be.

For whoever said BST - as different as BLU would be from a real BLU, a BST would be faaarrr worse. Consider how much SMN's Egi's actually matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeadRiser

It's funny that people have been asking for Blue Mage but it won't be the kind of Blue Mage they are expecting if they are working on that.

And Red Mage will not be a dps since Samurai was already said that it would be a dps. Red Mage will either be healer or tank and I'm leaning more to a tank.

As for a healer... I'm hoping for dancer.

---

Where did they say SAM will be DPS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Where did they say SAM will be DPS?

---

Yoshi P expressed his preference for Samurai to be a DPS. So while not confirmed, people are assuming that if we do see SAM in the expansion. It will be a DPS. That, and we already have two sword wielding tanks. Another would be somewhat redundant.

If we're gonna go into how generic the classes are and how a shift from DPS checks can help. They already implemented a few mechanics that can served as healing checks at least and I can think of a few other ideas

• Landmine/Hell Wind: From Deep Dungeon and Mhach we have two AoE mechanics with similar purposes, reducing hp to near death. All they need to do is make them more consistent and then shortly follow up with a normal weak AoE of similar range
• Doom (Wanderer's Palace): Another Heal or Die mechanic. It doesn't have to be Doom itself but a potent DoT that cannot be esunaed but can be removed by healing the DoT would have to be at least as potent as the one in Shor Khai's 2nd boss as most run of the mill DoTs can be canceled out by a simple medica II
• Wound: A mechanic from FF XIII, it works by reducing the Maximum HP. Only found in XIV as one of several effects of Bad Breath and as a Floor Gimmick in PotD
• Speaking of which, Multi-debuffing moves: They are few and far between and associated with Morbols, but they can also serve as a healing check of sorts. Just revolving about Esuna/Leeches/Exalted Detriment rather then healing spells

Tanks are trickier, if not impossible to work with since they need to contribute DPS to get enmity and the only workaround to that is Provoke. And I dunno about you, but I think the already decimated tanking community would decrease if they were forced into glorified emote classes. As it stands "Emnity checks" might as well be lesser or greater extent DPS checks. Mitigation however might be easier to work with. In fact I think a good fix to Parry would be avoiding tank busters and replacing them with fast and furious hits. Instead of 1 big hit for massive damage, make it 10 smaller hits that over time chips away at the tanks health. It would be a decent start at least.

As far as 4.0's Jobs go I'd say the only impossible role assignment would be Healer Samurai. Everything else seems fair game (provided that Samurai an either Red Mage or Mystic Knight are the only new Jobs)

I'm surprised that no one pointed the fact that SE said in an interview that realeasing 3 new jobs on every extension was too much work for them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Watachy

I'm surprised that no one pointed the fact that SE said in an interview that realeasing 3 new jobs on every extension was too much work for them...

---

I think that has been twisted around. IIRC they also mentioned the development of NIN with that, so the interpretations might vary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I think that has been twisted around. IIRC they also mentioned the development of NIN with that, so the interpretations might vary

---

If i remember well thay said that 3 jobs for each extension represent too much work and in the case of the NIN, he has been developed since the beta.
But i don't remember the thread where i've seen this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I think that has been twisted around. IIRC they also mentioned the development of NIN with that, so the interpretations might vary

---

This right here. I don't remember them saying 3 jobs was too much stress for them, and everyone I talk to doesn't remember them saying that too. Now what I do remember them saying is Ninja was way too stressful and they won't be doing another patch job, and I was very up to date with the heavensward hype and that's all I remember. I have heard many people say this same thing though, I haven't seen anything myself on it though.

Future tanks and healers will ALWAYS be weighed by either a.) how much DPS they can perform while marginally assisting at their primary role, or b.) how well they can singularly perform at their primary role, thus giving more time for the other tank or healer to...DPS.

Frankly, I'd rather SE work on fixing across-the-board potencies, cooldowns, and encounter designs FIRST, then worry about new classes.

Yes, they should add 3 classes, one of each. For some reason.

First, you cannot let a specific role without a new class, that's rude, and will cause unbalance: E.g, you release only a DPS and healer. Everyone wil get them at first, so the first weeks wil lbe horrible in Duty Finder and class balance (like happened with ninja, and Dark Knight)

Seconds, right now, we're: 3 tanks, 3 melel, 4 ranged, 3 healer. Releasing 1 tank, 1 melee and 1 healer will balance all. 4 tanks, 4 melee, 4 ranged, 4 healers.

That's my bet.

If it is necesary discard a role, I will discard a DPS. Discard a Tank/healer is shoot to the DF foot.

The samurai might wield katanas or, what is also an option, a glaive. The fighting style would change with the weapon used.

At the moment, we have:

3 tanks
3 melees
2 supporters
2 mages
3 healers

Time to throw in 1 additional Supporter (Redmage?) and 1 additional Mage (Geomancer, Dancer, I dont know) ; )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Stuff

---

It could be as simple as increasing the potency of mitigation on tanks as well as the amount of damage enemies do. it wouldn't be overly complicated either.

the issue with mitigation is it's weak and unnoticeable in most cases. and part of that is that also down to the incoming damage overall. when a tank can spend most of there time in dps stance because they are taking nextto no damage. using rampart to mitigate 20% of that almost neglible damage makes an unnoticeable amount of difference.. in most content a tank could run through without a single cooldown and it wouldn't make a real difference at all as to how much healing was required.

They could make a huge boost to the potency of mitigation cooldowns and add a huge buff to the damage enemies do. if enemies hit for like double there current damage but rampart mitigated say 50% of that for 20 seconds, you create a scenario where there becomes a noticeable difference between tanks that use mitigation effectively and tanks that don't bother and also increase the overall importance of healing. the problem that exists at the moment as far as tanks go is mitigation doesn't realy matter or make a difference the damage the y take is so laughable they can literally pull every single mob in a dungeon and / or spend most of there time in a dps stance. and its the same for healers.

a scholars sacred soil for example is never going to save the group from a massive incoming damage spike or bosses ultimate attack, only 2 things happen here.

1 the group clears the dps check which results in the incoming damage being next to nothing and the group sails through with ease. in which case using defensive buffs is often laughable because the bosses ultimate will hardly scratch the parties hp pools so mitigating 10% of nothing ultimately is nothing.
2 the group fails the dps check which results in an instant wipe and no amount of defencive buffs or healing will save you.. sacred soil divine viel fey covenant succor and stoneskin, you're still gonna wipe.

from a healers perspective or at least my scholars for example another reason I say mitigation is laughable Is because it doesn't change very much.
if a tank eats 15k damage and mitigates none of it. 1 of my psyckiks isn't enough to heal him. but 2 ends up with the tank being overhealed
if that tank ate that same 15k attack and mitigated 20% of it with a cooldown. it wouldn't change. 1 of my psykiks wouldn't be enough to heal him. but 2 would result in overheal. and its because of this that the mitigation goes completely unnoticed and is often irrellivent. the amount of healing required is no different whether a cool down is used or not.

this is why I think they need to move away from being so dps orinentated and make mitigation and healing more important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

the issue with mitigation is it's weak and unnoticeable in most cases.

---

No. The issue is that mitigation is only useful up to the point of survival - if you can survive the tankbuster + following AA (Whether with a small mitigation cooldown or a huge one), more is a waste, as healers can pick up the slack. Mitigation has one point and one point alone - to extend your effective HP. Healers function the exact same purpose - to convert Mana into HP and thus, extend the effective HP of the party. This means the two can be substituted as long as people don't die instantly and whether that's favorable depends on the conversion rate of mitigation/mana to effective HP respectively.

This alone wouldn't be such a big issue. The big issue is that healers are so powerful that the effective HP of a party is pretty much infinite if mechanics are followed and any boss could be downed even if DPS are performing very badly simply because the fight goes on forever. For this reason, hard enrages exist. And since the hard enrage cuts off the fight at a given point in time, mitigation and healing only need to barely make it to that point, any further is wasted. DPS on the other hand helps you cut off the fight before the artificial cut-off, thus winning the fight. And that's why DPS is king in progression, which trickles down.

Note that if healers are already this powerful in high end content, many will resort to DPS in low end content out of sheer boredom. And tanks have even less of a reason to bother with mitigation because they'll hardly be one-shot ever.

Frankly, it cannot be solved without nerfing healers big time and I doubt people are much in favor of that, so the DPS metagame is here to stay.

Zojha, it's funny that you should say that, as I actually made a similar statent in the healer subforum - in no other MMO that I have played have heals scaled so powerfully relative to max HP, without some form of cooldown beyond the global on them to boot. That's why upthread I said I'd prefer that they focus on scaling and re-tuning cooldowns and such so that the meta doesn't continue to be this weird amalgamation of "but what do they bring DPS-WISE???", rather than add more jobs that will only continue to be judged by that measure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Seconds, right now, we're: 3 tanks, 3 melee, 4 ranged, 3 healer.

---

I rather wish people wouldn't say, "4 ranged." It feels disingenuous. Its more accurate to say we have 2 ranged, and 2 mage DPS. DoM has 3 healers and 2 DPS. We're due a new mage DPS class. Maybe then SE will stop making the DOM sets identical for both healers and DPS (Shiva) and instead differentiate the two roles (Could've been Shiva Healer and Ramuh DPS).

The title for this thread confuses me.