Let's Get Rid of Cross Class Ability Restrictions

I wish we could go back to the 1.0 days when people didn't care about who was using what abilities.

The problem is there's really no content as of yet that calls for flexibility in ability choices. There's no single choice you can make that is as impactful as a subjob in FFXI. For WAR for example, /MNK to begin with, /THF later if you wanted for big hits, /NIN or /SAM still later on, then situational subjobs for certain content, etc. Deep Dungeon might have provided that sort of open ended flexibility in secondary ability choices but we don't really have anything meaningful to choose from.

If there's no content that allows for freedom in choice and not enough abilities to actually have a choice to draw from, they might as well get rid of cross class altogether with 4.0 and just redesign everything from the ground up.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

I wish we could go back to the 1.0 days when people didn't care about who was using what abilities.

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lol wut?

1.0 encounters (on release, not after they got nerfed into the ground through skill adjustments):
ifrit : sentinel mandatory for all party members.
darkhold : stack archers and lancers for the long range damage on ogre, dps had to have tank skills cross-classed for skeles at batraal.
moogles: stack bards because screw chasing moogles around on melee
aurum vale: stack blm for coincounter, melee for miser's mistress, preferably mnk.


The community very much cared what skills you had and used. The groups that did it successfully with so-called "balanced parties" were in the minority.

edit: The concerns about balancing are a real thing, very few people cold find a dedicated group that could successfully clear content on release without having at least 4 or 5 jobs leveled to cap, and certain jobs just weren't taken into some fights. Our mt had to theory craft the crap out of his opener to be able to take his pld into chimera in cutter's because of the damage scaling vs war, and even though it was doable it was certainly not optimal.

Increasing the amount of cross skills really would not address anything, infact it'd just make the intial problem worse; there's no job identity, there's button bloating and skills feel homogenized. It'd be a much better alternative to get rid of cross skilling in general and bake in those "required" abilties into the moveset; WAR and DRK would have their own form of provoke that acts as their own skill rather than being derived from PLD. DPS classes would have their own way of managing TP (such as how much has purification) rather than everyone using invigorate, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Increasing the amount of cross skills really would not address anything, infact it'd just make the intial problem worse; there's no job identity, there's button bloating and skills feel homogenized. It'd be a much better alternative to get rid of cross skilling in general and bake in those "required" abilties into the moveset; WAR and DRK would have their own form of provoke that acts as their own skill rather than being derived from PLD. DPS classes would have their own way of managing TP (such as how much has purification) rather than everyone using invigorate, etc etc.

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Would love to see baseline TP last longer and Purification, at cost of uptime, be the Monks way to deal with TP needs thereafter, hopefully following a buff to Meditation to make it scale with skill speed or even current GCD. I wonder what the others would do though... Fun food for thought.

Then again, I'd also like SE to consider if TP as a mechanic is even as interesting as it could be. More class-centric or class-integral changes or replacements to certain stale cross-class abilities would help, of course, but in most fights there seems either to be no party concern or only a tertiary concern as to TP maintenance, making the mechanic itself often unnoticeable atop being a basically dull concept in the first place. And unless making Skill Speed even less viable than it otherwise would be is working as intended.

Always imagined that Warriors would have an enmity ability like "Challenge", or they'd get the Provoke ability while Gladiators get taunt, and Dark would, if not "Challenge" get their one edgy equivalent, all with subtle differences made effective by their class mechanics. (For instance, if a Provoke-like were to increase enemy movement and auto-attack speed upon targeting, but reduce the damage dealt with each AA, that would help out significantly with AA procs. If guards (blocks, parries, and dodges) were made more likely based on the enemy's (negative) accuracy, a Taunt that imparts lost accuracy for greater AA damage could similarly benefit a Gladiator—and that's just the simplest benefits one might attach.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would love to see baseline TP last longer and Purification, at cost of uptime, be the Monks way to deal with TP needs thereafter, hopefully following a buff to Meditation to make it scale with skill speed or even current GCD. I wonder what the others would do though... Fun food for thought.

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TP should be a persistant thing for physical dps as something they need to manage, just as much as how scholars need to check their MP before going nuts with ruin III. Another option is for the next job to utilize TP in a similar way BLM does. I mean when you look at it, they came up with purification on monks and MCH has reload (which is underutilized for resource management, ). NIN and BRD feels like wasted potential when expanding upon this, but instead get skills that add no depth to their jobs (Dream within a dream for example) or skills that homogenize gameplay even more (Wanderer's minuet).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Always imagined that Warriors would have an enmity ability like "Challenge", or they'd get the Provoke ability while Gladiators get taunt, and Dark would, if not "Challenge" get their one edgy equivalent, all with subtle differences made effective by their class mechanics. (For instance, if a Provoke-like were to increase enemy movement and auto-attack speed upon targeting, but reduce the damage dealt with each AA, that would help out significantly with AA procs. If guards (blocks, parries, and dodges) were made more likely based on the enemy's (negative) accuracy, a Taunt that imparts lost accuracy for greater AA damage could similarly benefit a Gladiator—and that's just the simplest benefits one might attach.)

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Honestly for purposes like, i wouldn't mind skills sharing the same properties when it comes to mandatory purposes, like provoke being reskinned to be warrior/Dorkish in flavor. I mean it's not like they didn't shy away from making abilities functionally the same to each other (see WM/GB and quick notch/spread shot), provided said abilities do not define job mechanics (such as dork arts or wrath stacks)

It's because of some people complained about it during 1.0.

I never liked these limitations.

I really don't want to see dps using Protect over an offensive cooldown

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Originally Posted by rjspencer4

I really don't want to see dps using Protect over an offensive cooldown

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That dps would be bad anyway if they had to use protect in the middle of a battle.

What i would like to see them do though prolly will never see is for them to remove cross classing and instead release classes from jobs. Each class could equip certain jobs and that class would serve as the base. Like how in XI if you switched your weapon you would get access to different weaponskills. Blm could use Thaumaturge for fire, ice, lightning spells and Conjurer For Earth, Wind and Water spells for example.

This is sort of hard to fix issue, because the system would work great for a BARE class ala FF5, but with traited skills you could have paladins raising in battle, some more mitigation on foresight, less risky b4b a decent keen flurry etc. Then you have the baffling skills that mrd and gld provide: skull sunder savage blade riot blade. Just why? they have to be comboed after specific skills that arent even cross class-able, i would think rampart or berserk or anything else would be a better pick tbh. Balance aside

Also dont get why archer cannot use goad, but gladiator can, and death blossom

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Originally Posted by Zari

Wait so the current one is an illusion of choice but removing the restrictions wouldn't also be the same damn thing? People would find whatever the new mandatory cross class skills are and take those. It is the same damn thing

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No you'd have the choice to take what you want to take. Unlike others I see little need to optimize damage in scripted encounters. Only reason my BLM does now is simply there is nothing else to take. You could choose to pump those numbers or bring utility. It gives you options. But if you hate options and would prefer the design philosophy to hold your hand by all means stick with what you have now.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

No you'd have the choice to take what you want to take. Unlike others I see little need to optimize damage in scripted encounters. Only reason my BLM does now is simply there is nothing else to take. You could choose to pump those numbers or bring utility. It gives you options. But if you hate options and would prefer the design philosophy to hold your hand by all means stick with what you have now.

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You would take abilities that would not optimize your DPS? Really?

This game is set up where healers and BRD/MCH can handle support like functions. If I knew you were intentionally not using abilities to optimize your DPS over support functions not needed, I would have no problem kicking you out.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

No you'd have the choice to take what you want to take. Unlike others I see little need to optimize damage in scripted encounters. Only reason my BLM does now is simply there is nothing else to take. You could choose to pump those numbers or bring utility. It gives you options. But if you hate options and would prefer the design philosophy to hold your hand by all means stick with what you have now.

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Honestly, if that utility doesn't end up a potential very near or further increase to raid DPS, it's not really a choice.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Why not? Could be a fun experiment. Do you hate fun?

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It just started sounding more irrelevant than fun-seeking when you said you wouldn't be optomizing dps. Note that you didn't just say 'personal' dps or the like. Instead you mentioned scripted encounters, negatively I'd assume... despite that being where you can in turn script out your utility decisions to create the least clash or repetition. Fun-seeking to most MMO players, I honestly think, is optomization. The more innovations the game allows, the more complications that form from intuitive and/or tactically-minded adaptations to those means of adaptations, the more fun. Saying that something will be "fun" regardless its actual usability... tends not to live up to its description. I'd imagine that's why you're being met skeptically.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I see. So all people care about is optimal DPS. Makes sense. Ultimately boring. If the skills we have now are mandatory they should simply scrap the CC system and place skills that grant the same effects within the job's own skill kit.

I mean if we really do have no choice then they can at least be honest about it.

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They've been honest about this part of MMO gaming since you saw your first floating combat text. This is a number game. Not a dance-off—which, upon digitalization, would probably also be a number game. Healing, enfeeblements, TP refreshes, kiting, tanking, CCing, etc., are all effectively raid DPS increases. The fight or relevant portion of it ends more quickly or with fewer resources necessary for later combat spent because of that combination of effects. Does that make them boring?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You would take abilities that would not optimize your DPS? Really?

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Why not? Could be a fun experiment. Do you hate fun?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly, if that utility doesn't end up a potential very near or further increase to raid DPS, it's not really a choice.

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I see. So all people care about is optimal DPS. Makes sense. Ultimately boring. If the skills we have now are mandatory they should simply scrap the CC system and place skills that grant the same effects within the job's own skill kit.

I mean if we really do have no choice then they can at least be honest about it.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

This is sort of hard to fix issue, because the system would work great for a BARE class ala FF5, but with traited skills you could have paladins raising in battle, some more mitigation on foresight, less risky b4b a decent keen flurry etc. Then you have the baffling skills that mrd and gld provide: skull sunder savage blade riot blade. Just why? they have to be comboed after specific skills that arent even cross class-able, i would think rampart or berserk or anything else would be a better pick tbh. Balance aside.

Also dont get why archer cannot use goad, but gladiator can, and death blossom.

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I have absolutely no idea how they chose who would and who would not get access to Rogue skills, or why non-native tank cross-classes are even available to the other tanks. At least they come with some cool animations. (DRK Skull Sunder is the funniest shit.)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If BLM could cross class every single skill that anyone can cross class, they would have 5 abilities that could increase dps, and that's including Straight Shot and Aero. Are either of those a larger dps increase than a melee/tank getting a Goad?

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Gotta ask, did you read Velhart's post on the very first page? Moreover, if it's giving TP in a fight long enough for a Bard's not having to Paeon (which, like Ballad, is always partly wasteful, AND dps-decreasing) to outweigh the minor advantages of any other buffing ability, it's giving DPS.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You would take abilities that would not optimize your DPS? Really?

This game is set up where healers and BRD/MCH can handle support like functions. If I knew you were intentionally not using abilities to optimize your DPS over support functions not needed, I would have no problem kicking you out.

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If BLM could cross class every single skill that anyone can cross class, they would have 5 abilities that could increase dps, and that's including Straight Shot and Aero. Are either of those a larger dps increase than a melee/tank getting a Goad?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Why not? Could be a fun experiment. Do you hate fun?

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What is fun about using useless support abilities? What is fun is optimizing DPS and seeing your numbers get higher. What is fun is working hard in a fight to make sure my contribution to the team is as high as my ability as a player can take it to.

Also, fun lies in the content itself, not what you can customize your bar with.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If BLM could cross class every single skill that anyone can cross class, they would have 5 abilities that could increase dps, and that's including Straight Shot and Aero. Are either of those a larger dps increase than a melee/tank getting a Goad?

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Actually, it sounds completely broken. Everyone level Ninja and put Goad on for a rotation.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Why not? Could be a fun experiment. Do you hate fun?

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Could give them a stick with 1 stat of whatever as long as it balance they'll say. It will require work to keep anything balance but to keep it simple for the sake of keeping something simple is just being lazy. I'm not a fan of the cross class abilities it pretty bland compare to other mmo's. I think what's is actually lacking is some horizontal progression but nothing to crazy at first and introduce it with the new features and keep the current formula for the vertical the same if need be. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Actually, it sounds completely broken. Everyone level Ninja and put Goad on for a rotation.

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Skill speed becomes not-junk, I can imagine worse things.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If BLM could cross class every single skill that anyone can cross class, they would have 5 abilities that could increase dps, and that's including Straight Shot and Aero. Are either of those a larger dps increase than a melee/tank getting a Goad?

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If a BLM could take Straight Shot the 10% crit buff would probably outweigh anything a Goad could provide.

It's rather curious that a Rogue can CC the Archer skills SS and Venomous Bite alongside the rest and can benefit off of every one. Including Hawk's Eye. A skill on BLM that does pretty much nothing.

From a strict DPS build sense I would easily drop Physick for Straight Shot day 1.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

If a BLM could take Straight Shot the 10% crit buff would probably outweigh anything a Goad could provide

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Straight Shot would take a full 2.5 seconds (BLM Skill Speed), and do less than 100 damage for the skill itself. It would be nice on an opener, and any other time you're using multiple oGCD abilities. Aero would also be situationally nice for the instant cast time 200 potency.

Physick is junk, there are several skills I would gladly drop it for.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Straight Shot would take a full 2.5 seconds (BLM Skill Speed), and do less than 100 damage for the skill itself. It would be nice on an opener, and any other time you're using multiple oGCD abilities. Aero would also be situationally nice for the instant cast time 200 potency.

Physick is junk, there are several skills I would gladly drop it for.

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Straight shot is a weaponskill. All weaponskills are instant cast, even empyreal arrow. The restriction really is being in melee range.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Straight shot is a weaponskill. All weaponskills are instant cast, even empyreal arrow.

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Yeah... That's why it would be useful to weave in oGCD skills.

Even though it's instant, you wouldn't be able to start casting a spell for 2.5 seconds after you use it.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Skill speed becomes not-junk, I can imagine worse things.

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And you are saying exactly what is the problem with the system you suggest. With oddball things like this, it would be way too hard for the developers to make a real in depth and complex boss fights like we do get right now because they have to take into account every single way a party takes this in, and with the amount of options the supposed system you want would do, they would have to hold back on adding depth to the content itself or else face each boss being exploited and taken advantage of based on the "options" players have alone.

With how it is set up now. Developers have a much, much better idea how to make a boss fight and can bring unique ideas to the table for content itself because jobs have a set kit. I will still never get why people insist that adding bells and whistles to your character is more fun than having real in depth boss/dungeon content. It is sad that some are insistent on wanting to hold the developers back to have this illusion of freedom.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It is sad that some are insistent on wanting to hold the developers back to have this illusion of freedom.

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The are constantly balancing everything, having a more diverse skill set wouldn't bog the developers down. The overpowered methods (Titan-Egi vs Ramuh) are quickly nerfed, while the quirky player strategies not considered during development are often left untouched. If Goad were available for Jobs to cross class, it would be nerfed down to 100-150 TP as a cross class skill, and traited in to full strength for ninjas.

ps - I'm not the one to suggest the system, I'm only discussing the suggestion.

I dislike everyone's take that "best in slot will always happen so no need in variety"

You know how I know this is bull?

Jobs.

Jobs themselves are exactly like what you're saying.

There is going to be the best in slot job for the group so why bother making more jobs? Might as well let SE just tell us Nin, Drg, Brd, Blm is all you need. Might as well delete monk, Smn. No need for future jobs.

Oh wait, but people play those jobs anyways, just like in XI people would do different builds to maximize their fun despite their being a best in slot item for each spell.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The are constantly balancing everything, having a more diverse skill set wouldn't bog the developers down. The overpowered methods (Titan-Egi vs Ramuh) are quickly nerfed, while the quirky player strategies not considered during development are often left untouched. If Goad were available for Jobs to cross class, it would be nerfed down to 100-150 TP as a cross class skill, and traited in to full strength for ninjas.

ps - I'm not the one to suggest the system, I'm only discussing the suggestion.

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You are proving my point even further each time you post. So with the already trial and error they go with in this system, you now suggest they make that system even more open? Your solution to jumping over the pothole just leads you to falling off a cliff.

Velheart, you bring up great points but you descend into hyperbole. There is no way Square Enix would open up the cross class abilities without some adjustments.

Furthermore, this game is not a game where highest dps trumps all. Each encounter is a puzzle and the abilities we have are the tools we use to solve that puzzle. I feel my idea would free the developers to become even more creative in their encounter designs, particularly in light party content, because they wouldn't have to worry about the lack of a particular class and their abilities in an encounter.

Perhaps, it's as you say. That certain skills will be deemed mandatory and there will still be cookie cutter builds. But, I have learned one thing while playing games. Never underestimate the cleverness of a player when it comes to designing a character.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

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I never said the current system is perfect. I actually use that non-perfection to further illustrate my point that being more open causes more problems than the ones already there. I would argue however that the balance is in a pretty decent state right now. Not the best, but it is working pretty well. I think you would benefit to try to learn how this affects things on the developer's end especially for this. I respect your approach to the topic and like I said in a perfect world I would be for it, but I look at the reality of the situation of dealing with a system like this and I simply cannot agree to it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You are proving my point even further each time you post. So with the already trial and error they go with in this system, you now suggest they make that system even more open?

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What exactly is that point, that it's too much work for the developers to balance out anything except damage dealt?

I'd like to see dps that do more than just dps, tanks that do more than just dps and mitigate tankbusters, healers that do more than just dps and toss out the occasional cure. With the current instance system an all out support job would be worthless in 4-man while essential in 8-man runs, but what's wrong with expanding support abilities of all jobs?

What exactly do you propose, Stouter? What else can anyone do besides DPS plus their job role in combat?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I never said the current system is perfect. I actually use that non-perfection to further illustrate my point that being more open causes more problems than the ones already there. I would argue however that the balance is in a pretty decent state right now. Not the best, but it is working pretty well. I think you would benefit to try to learn how this affects things on the developer's end especially for this. I respect your approach to the topic and like I said in a perfect world I would be for it, but I look at the reality of the situation of dealing with a system like this and I simply cannot agree to it.

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*Hugs* And I respect your points against my suggestion. In truth, I'm an art guy when it comes to games. I wouldn't know where to start as a developer. :)

However, I don't need to be a developer. I'm a customer who is expressing a desire to have a bit more freedom in personalizing my character and getting rid of the cross class limitations was the first thing which came to mind. The forum debates the positives and negatives of my idea and the developers either review my suggestion or put it in the shredder. :D

In addition, I love floating ideas just to see what other players think. The counter-idea of pruning abilities from the classes while front loading them with the essentials is very interesting. I'd like to see more debate on that topic. After all, we all want the same thing, a great game.

In terms of balance, I agree. We currently have no overpowered classes/jobs and every class is fully capable of completing all the content. That's a wonderful place to be.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

*Hugs* And I respect your points against my suggestion. In truth, I'm an art guy when it comes to games. I wouldn't know where to start as a developer. :)

I love floating ideas just to see what other players think. The counter-idea of pruning abilities from the classes while front loading them with the essentials is very interesting. I'd like to see more debate on that topic. After all, we all want the same thing, a great game.

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Out of curiosity, do you think there's an artistic place for a revamped Cross-Class system? Something that could aid the game's engaging-ness, even if in an almost passive way, that a ravamp to the CC system would be an intuitive fit for?

On the latter topic, I think both would be good ideas. QoL changes, I think, could start with one very simple idea: multi-skill / dynamic slots, wherein you can attach one ability per requisite stance to a particular hotbar spot. Inner Beast and Fell Cleave could share the same slot, as could Fang & Claw and Whirling Thrust, for instance. Similarly, you could narrow the buttons spent on combo abilities from, say, 8, to 2 on DRG, or from 6 to 3 on NIN, though the latter would be more messy. However, that would be a band-aid approach, and unless made default, an unnecessarily additional step. I'd like to see the feature nonetheless, but I don't think it a full solution by any means.

I feel like the first concern of skill pruning ought to be what each class's, job's, and skill's gameplay ought to really be. At present, skills especially have little difference from one another. A Savage Blade is a non-Maimable Skull Sunder is a 13-potency short Spinning Slash. Differentiating those abilities would not only go away for plotting a course for pruning and improved class identity, but also likely for cross-class abilities.

This may however be reliant on other systems. In the past I've suggested a few such as Stagger (wherein dps plays into interruption and DPS players themselves play a more pivotal part in party survival) and/or Pain (a longer-term equivalent, which works hand in hand with Stagger and brings out composition differences further), Multi-strikes (an actual difference between abilities that hit multiple vs. a single time, playing into Stagger), Links, Elemental Wheel Revamps, Shared Resource Pools (e.g. passing certain magic types back and forth, using them in different ways), etc., but these all run the risk of being both a server and development overload. I'd like to see what other ideas people have out there, especially in regards to undermechanics that could allow for further ability and composition differentiation without breaking balance.

Sorry for the brevity of the response; only on between oven timers atm...

for button bloat if necessary it would be nice, if say for Warrior, abilities in deliverance acted like equilibrium, aka the defiance only abilites getting traits to have a use in deliverance for instance, and any job thats got stance locked skills etc(though bloodweapon is the only other example i can think of in this case)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Out of curiosity, do you think there's an artistic place for a revamped Cross-Class system? Something that could aid the game's engaging-ness, even if in an almost passive way, that a ravamp to the CC system would be an intuitive fit for?
*snippity snip*
Sorry for the brevity of the response; only on between oven timers atm...

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I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you are asking. Could you ask your question in another way, please?

Oven timers? Whatcha' cooking?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you are asking. Could you ask your question in another way, please?

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Hmm, I'm not really sure how else it can be asked. You mentioned being an art guy when it came to games, and at least for me—somewhere between the two—a whole lot comes out in a game's animations, maybe not by themselves, but certainly centered on them. Are there any issues you see with the game, or areas that it can be improved, that you think might be done through or be finalized by certain revamps to the cross-class system. Could any of that have artistic considerations, too, rather than merely mechanical.

For instance, one of the issues I most have is that animations seem rather detached from their effects in this game. We have abilities like Spinning Slash that somehow don't do AoE damage, despite seemingly striker a wider and deeper area than Overpower. There's no difference between abilities that strike once and abilities that strike multiple times. And there's no backing difference between Strength and Dexterity—their just two different names for an attack power stat, split to ensure that one needs more, wholly separate sets of accessories between MNK & DRG and NIN & Ranged. Though I can't imagine a revamp to the cross-class system fixing those things by itself, not with only that goal in mind would a revamp seem at all worthwhile, I can imagine that other beneficial changes could be designed such as to lead to that revamp.

Agreed, something needs to be changed with the system(adjust, get rid of, etc) especially with probable new skills introduced in expansion.
I personally enjoyed the sub class system from FF11, not saying that FF14 could adpot that type of system instead of cross-class but i wouldnt be opposed to it. :cool: