your healer may hate you.

My healer hates me, but that's purely because I'm his best friend and I like to "help" him by playing hide and seek around corners and out of his line of sight just so I can hear him cuss me out over skype and laugh, but that's just me

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I only get annoyed if a BRD doesn't foe with a healer dps'ing if they're also not aoe'ing. Otherwise yeah, save it for paeon.

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people need/use paeon in expert? why are the pulls taking so long?

As a healer i hate everyone.

They do things
that require healing
what do they think I am there for.

As a babynewb healer, with no healing jobs above level thirty: I mostly hate it when the tank doesn't hold down aggro. Nothing hinders a me as a healer as much as being dead. I don't mind so much when the tank over-pulls; it just means I can spend a bit of time actually healing instead of being a dps that occasionally slaps a band-aid on the tank.

I feel like you all are dealing with a lot of new tanks who are both completely new to the game and chose tank not knowing and completely new to tanking period

A lot of times you can move just as quickly through the dungeons without massive pulls. The DPS is more focused because you can 1-2-3 mobs with single target skills as opposed to slowly creeping away life bars using nothing but aoe skills. And healers can help with offensive spells and debuffs as opposed to spamming tank heals for dear life.

But no one ever wants to believe that... it's not the "cool" way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

A lot of times you can move just as quickly through the dungeons without massive pulls. The DPS is more focused because you can 1-2-3 mobs with single target skills as opposed to slowly creeping away life bars using nothing but aoe skills. And healers can help with offensive spells and debuffs as opposed to spamming tank heals for dear life.

But no one ever wants to believe that... it's not the "cool" way to do it.

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The time it takes to do that makes it pretty clear which way is better.

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Originally Posted by EudoxiaB

your healer may hate you.

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Haters gonna hate.

My armor must be cursed or there is a bug in the game. I do the same pulls, the same way. But occasionally I'll have the healer tell me I'm wearing paper. I thought at first the healer may have had the wrong idea just spamming physick constantly or using a cannon in main scenario while I slowly died.

However! These healer assured me that my paper armor was to blame! They were name-calling too, so you know they were serious business! There must be a curse!

I use benediction on trash pull. In all honesty who saves them for even boss fights in dungeons?! If you have 10% mp and then use bene at the end of the pull you clearly didn't dps enough. After all the best tank mitigation are dead mobs. Doing nothing to help will only make it worse. Then again I don't expect any healer to do dps in dungeons, that's their own choice. But I love to dps than rather say; omg nothing happens and I'm at full mp. Instead of going off with that attitude, go and help.

I've rarely ever had to use Benediction in a dungeon. I feel that if I had to use benediction then someone (maybe myself) messed up something big time.

I have, however, used Benediction often in PvP when someone's HP is just dropping super fast or I manage to get within spell range right before they are about to die and Swiftcast isn't up yet.

Benediction is there for a reason. Its not a limit break. Its a free heal, and a good one. If you are stuck at 10% mp and refuse to use it...well do the math.

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Originally Posted by EudoxiaB

just because you see a well geared, experienced tank grabbing ALL the trash in a dungeon and dragging it to one spot so the dps can aoe, that doesn't mean your tissue paper wearing self can do the same thing. Benediction is NOT meant to be used on trash pulls. if your healer has 10%mp after a trash pull, you're pulling too big. period. and don't take off and do it again when the healer is under 50% mp. you may feel like a god, but you're just a goof with inferior gear. stop it.

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And then on the flipside, I've gotten hate from healers because I DON'T pull big. They're awfully presumptuous about the group they're with, like we all know what we're doing. :rolleyes: Not to mention most classes don't have much in the way of AoE (black mages and later on monks are the only ones I can think of), making it even less worthwhile. My philosophy, especially when it comes to tanking random content, is slow and steady wins the race. Any time it's otherwise, it becomes a mess.

It's funny how useful my MB on BRD would be until I started leveling.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Schmoe

My philosophy, especially when it comes to tanking random content, is slow and steady wins the race. Any time it's otherwise, it becomes a mess.

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Exactly... one wipe completely negates any time you save by rushing through the thing. Why bother? It's really not that much faster. Most of the dungeons are built with gating. So it's really impossible to be that much faster then just grabbing packs of 3 and 4.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

You don't need healers for the current expert dungeons anyway so I don't really care if they hate me. Everything hits like a level 50 mob. It's stupid.

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All credit to you and other dudebros in this thread for my new signature. *eyeroll*

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I generally aim to have the dungeon cleared before the healer has time to formulate an opinion about me. Ideally, they should still be too engrossed in their TV show to notice.

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Best quote ever! Literally should be the message board equivalent to a mic drop.
When I heal, if I have to stop watching Veep, and get out of Cleric Stance... Urgrhgr Vote kick becomes an option! (kidding)

It also depends on the healer. When I go as SCH I don't have the tools a WHM does (like Benediction) so if the pull is too big I spend more time healing and less time contributing to DPS. A slightly smaller pull goes faster because Selene can keep the tank up while I DoT the enemies.

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Originally Posted by Edvardelis

It also depends on the healer. When I go as SCH I don't have the tools a WHM does (like Benediction) so if the pull is too big I spend more time healing and less time contributing to DPS. A slightly smaller pull goes faster because Selene can keep the tank up while I DoT the enemies.

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To be fair new expert dungeons rarely need heals. Im usually in cleric 90%of the time as whm and sch. Whm is a bitch on mp tho compare to sch :p.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

All credit to you and other dudebros in this thread for my new signature. *eyeroll*

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Are you the dev who made the dungeons or something? Sorry, they suck.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

people need/use paeon in expert? why are the pulls taking so long?

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Because they're using Paeon!!11!1

But seriously, I'm all for people taking a slow and easy pace if that's what they are comfortable with; I'll be a little disappointed but it will be something locked away deep within my heart, don't you worry. That said, I get the impression that most, if not all of the Tanks I get who pull small do so because they somehow think the DPS isn't good enough. Look, I get that Ninjas aren't the best AoE'ers out there(the person I often party with) and Bards don't have the most amazing damage(the class I play), but that's no reason to stop. I am by no means a good Tank and I certainly do not raid, but I've done a full pull on Amdapor City(HM) plenty of times with an i201 Dark Knight, one instance even involving one of our DPS d/cing, leaving us with only a lonely DRG. No Living Dead or anything special required. I had to burn through more CDs than usual of course, but there was no real danger throughout.

Now, account for the fact that most people are less lazy than I am with iLevel upkeep these days and you can rest assured that DPS should not be a a concern for large pulls in the current Expert.



On the topic of songs though, I no longer bother with checking if the healer is even DPS'ing. I just sing and focus more on myself rather than wasting rotation and cast times on starting it whnever they decide they are ready, plus some classes might gain small benefits from it such as through Mudra skills perhaps? I'm not sure but I have no other use for that MP so I may as well spend it.

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Originally Posted by EudoxiaB

if a healer has to pop Bene and get to 10% mp every pull because they're dpsing, you have crappy bad dps. a healer shouldn't have time to do more than pop aero 3. if they do, the dps aren't pulling their weight

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How about you get off your high horse and stop telling other people how to play their game? People can pull as much as they want, healers can DPS or heal as much as they want and if other players in the group have a problem it's THEIR issue to address and come to a common agreement, not YOURS.
I apologize for my harsh tone but entitled feeling people like you make me sick.

WHM here

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Benediction is NOT meant to be used on trash pulls.

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You're doing it awfully wrong. Benediction is perfect to use mid holy spam.

Also I do hate you tanks. Why? Blame 2.4-2.5 warriors and the tank deeps meme while doing large pulls. Nothing was worse than have a sad excuse of tank go full str, not use a single cooldown and try to pull big like a good tank.
What was the most annoying is that people jumped on this bandwagon because youtubers did it and the hype was all over about tank dps, but when they read the guide of going full str they completely missed the part where they're tanks and defensive cooldowns must be always used.

The dps meme was so dank i've even had to babysit a goddamned PLD on full str with sword oath on during a large pull on wanderer's palace HM during a expert run (you know the typical double pull after the 1st boss? yea that one), it was just ridiculous.

Dungeons aren't too bad. If they pull too much and the group wipes, they typically tone it down a little.

Alexander raids, on the other hand - I downright loathe tanks in these. Why? I'll call it 'tank ego': you always got this one tank that HAS to take all of the damage. In their minds, the other tank is a lawn ornament. If both of the healers are geared to do it and everyone avoids unnecessary damage, then that is fine and dandy. Duty Finder groups (at least the ones I get) don't do that, though. Even if it's apparent that people's gear isn't sufficient for a one-tank-takes-all setup, they'll try again. I've even seen, on occasion, one of these tanks chastising the other tank for following fight mechanics and taunting off the huge tank buster hit.

I have the exact opposite problem: where the offtank decides that I should try to solotank it without letting me know about it.

Just because I could survive it doesn't mean that I want to put that to the test. I'd much rather follow the intended mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I have the exact opposite problem: where the offtank decides that I should try to solotank it without letting me know about it.

Just because I could survive it doesn't mean that I want to put that to the test. I'd much rather follow the intended mechanics.

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My biggest beef with offtanks is when I say I'm gonna solo tank the entire thing, then they decide to soak/provoke, etc. I already had my mitigation up. Your wasting my mitigation. YOU'RE WASTING MY MITIGATION! If someone decides to provoke/soak/whatever after I already declared I'm gonna solo it, then they can solo it.

If my healer hates me I know I'm playing my Job right.

#JustDarkKnightThings

I hate everyone.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/f31d09c32...wxho2_1280.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I have the exact opposite problem: where the offtank decides that I should try to solotank it without letting me know about it.

Just because I could survive it doesn't mean that I want to put that to the test. I'd much rather follow the intended mechanics.

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Had this the other day with Vortexer.Got to 3 stacks and i knew the healers were struggling.Switched to Sword Oath.Dark refused to provoke off me and i died.Was useing migitations also.There response was 'sorry i thought you knew what you were doing'
Told them they should be swapping on 3 stacks which resulted in them completly flaming me and telling me that i should be taking way more stacks than that.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

My biggest beef with offtanks is when I say I'm gonna solo tank the entire thing, then they decide to soak/provoke, etc. I already had my mitigation up. Your wasting my mitigation. YOU'RE WASTING MY MITIGATION! If someone decides to provoke/soak/whatever after I already declared I'm gonna solo it, then they can solo it.

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If you say that you'll solo it, then fine. I've got no issue with that. I can focus on using my cooldowns to pump out more damage.

But if the main tank says nothing, then I'm going to assume that tankswaps are needed. I'm not going to risk the boss deciding that, after a Tank appetizers, those Healers look especially delicious.

Agree with this, you dont need bene for bosses in dungeons lol. Big pulls is where it's at.

Howdy howdy Blue Castle here with a word of advice about big pulls...

Remember my fellow harbingers of death, you control who lives and who dies.

KYA HA HA HA, if some padded little brat of a tank wants to pull like he's a big boy
then you have every right to watch him burn for it! HAHAHAHAHAHA

but in all seriousness a good party communicates and works as a team.
if the team cant work together it might be time to throw in the towel.
but in our case the leave, kick or vote abandon.

Hey, slow tank here, least formerly, been trying to do larger pulls recently to get out of my comfort zone, but anyways, I'm of the opinion that unless your gear is getting scaled down, or you're just at the cap for the dungeon, DO NOT PULL ENTIRE BETWEEN BOSS GROUPS IF YOU WON'T USE CDS.

Signed,
Someone who has to deal with this shit from both sides of the coin on a common basis

I don't think the point of the OP was that large pulls are bad. Large pulls are just fine as long as the tank is able to handle it in both gear and knowledge to use their skills correctly. What itches healers are those tanks who have seen this done and try to pull it of themselves and while fail for sheer lack of gear or misuse of mitigation abilities blame the healers for it, even if the healers has had to pull all caps to try and keep them alive.

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Originally Posted by EudoxiaB

Benediction is NOT meant to be used on trash pulls.

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For me Benediction is a regular heal I often use it on trash :S

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Originally Posted by EudoxiaB

just because you see a well geared, experienced tank grabbing ALL the trash in a dungeon and dragging it to one spot so the dps can aoe, that doesn't mean your tissue paper wearing self can do the same thing. Benediction is NOT meant to be used on trash pulls. if your healer has 10%mp after a trash pull, you're pulling too big. period. and don't take off and do it again when the healer is under 50% mp. you may feel like a god, but you're just a goof with inferior gear. stop it.

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I'm going to do it and nothing you can say will stop me. Quit being lazy.

Benediction is better used on large [risky] pulls rather than on dungeon bosses, given the tank and healer aren't total goofs there's no instance where using Bene on a boss is a necessity or absolutely required.

As a Tank I rotate my cooldowns as I see fit and I have yet to see a healer who couldn't keep up with healing during my expert roulettes.
The only time where Healers are forced to Bene me is when I slack off and pull big without any deffensive cooldowns up.
I also keep an eye at my Healer's mp and quit pulling big as soon as I see that the Healer's new / is struggling.

So no, highly doubt my healer hates me.

Always gauge your party before the mass pulls. 9/10 it's the DPS that can't cut it, not the healer.

I'm usually running with a healer from my own FC, and she has made it very clear that she hates teacup tanks who do baby pulls. Small pulls put her to sleep, which is why she brings me along for her roulette's in the first place. She doesn't want to deal with some random who might only pull one mob at a time. So, I highly doubt she hates me.

When it comes to random healers, I'm still not worried. So long as a tank is rotating their CD's efficiently, the healer shouldn't really have anything to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

You don't need healers for the current expert dungeons anyway so I don't really care if they hate me. Everything hits like a level 50 mob. It's stupid.

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Ikr once our party lost a healer after the first boss in one of the new dungeons we cleared all the way to the second boss with no problem at all

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Originally Posted by Destous

I couldn't disagree more. I like to pull everything up until I hit a mandatory stop in the dungeon via a wall or a key door or something like that. I like it when I heal tanks who do the same thing; because regardless of finishing the trash pull at 50% MP or 5% MP, it's faster and it's more exciting/fun. Healing while the tank plays it safe with every pull is the most boring way to play this game. The second most boring way to play this game is tanking mobs 3 at a time. Setting cruise control to "cool" and playing without any sense of risk is boring.

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I couldn't disagree more. Maybe some like it like that, but I can't find any fun in just cure bombing the tank without time to use any other ability, hoping no DPS get hit by an aoe because the tank decided to pull the entire floor in one hit. If everyone is over geared then sure, but on a DF party, its not the case.