The cooldown reset on A8s is unbearable

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Originally Posted by Pells

So.... Everybody buffs up, you send the sacrifice in to start a fight with the boss while everybody else waits outside the arena. He dies, boss resets, cooldowns reset, _AND_ you still have your buffs up?

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I was thinking more of a full party wipe, when everyone is killed and no one can fight the boss, so you have to release, when the boss resets, your cool-downs are reset (or greatly shortened) until the fight starts up again. Naturally this would be mostly limited to contained instances like raiding or trials rather than dungeons (as that could be exploited rather easily)

I'm not really giving an absolute answer here, just a possible example of how it could be done.

POSTING WHILE WAITING FOR IMPORTANT COOLDOWNS. I guess we could change our strategy every other pull to reflect cooldown readiness or I could just switch jobs this raid tier again :). Or you could sell a cooldown reset item in the cash shop :)



Just make a potion or something that you can only use out of combat. Or just make them reset when the screen darkens like they should have for the past 3 years or whatever.

Why put A8S in the title here? Rest of the title works without it just fine.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Why put A8S in the title here? Rest of the title works without it just fine.

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Probably because the first phase has 2 things that can instantly kill everyone during progression if one person makes an error. A6S would also work, though not so much after the nerf.

^ Exactly what this person said. Learning the mechanic thats 30 seconds in is really painful.

I'm not sure why people are disagreeing with this.

Why not release no new content or features at all since those can all be exploited

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Why put A8S in the title here? Rest of the title works without it just fine.

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Because then it would read "The cooldown reset on is unbearable" and that doesn't make much sense at all!

I haven't read the full 5 pages but I support this. Waiting for cool downs takes a huge chunk of raid time when it's all added up.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

That type of reset doesn't really make sense, though, Pell. I think most assume a CD reset to be the second you Release, or in fights like A8S and EX Primals, when the entire party wipes.

I can't think of a possible way to exploit that, since sacrificing a player to reset the boss will only reset their CD's, not the 7 others (would still need to wait for MP and TP, though).

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This makes a good point. Resetting cooldowns at "release to start" (i.e. not being raised), and activating said measure only in Raid and Trial duties would be good. Of course, to me it'd be fine to have it in Dungeons as well. PvP... Probably not. Don't really play it myself, but I can imagine it could lead to balance issues. But since they're clearly capable of having a different skillset (and LB system) in PvP, I'm pretty sure they'd be able to have a different "release to start" mechanic in there as well.

The thing I find funny is resetting CD's is entirely doable as they have the mechanic in SSS, almost like they're mocking us with it.

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

I think you're reaching on this. Like really reaching. If you're brand new to a fight and you're with your static, you honestly think you'll die when you see a new mechanic, then immediately wipe, and run in YOLO without discussing it? If you have a static that only talks about strategy because you're waiting on cooldowns, you might need to find a new static.

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With how the fights are so heavily scripted, there comes a point where everybody knows what needs to happen. It's a matter of training your muscle memory and reflex to see it through consistently. You know when you fucked up, and can probably call it before the wipe even finishes happening. Not every wipe, especially a week or two into trying, is going to need a long discussion after it.

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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This really should be a high priority for the team. It is a real time waster when we have to wait for really long cooldowns to finish just so we can have another go just to wipe quickly again in progression raiding. I even hold some abilities back during certain points so we don't have to wait for it while in the learning process. This is a major flaw in dungeons/trials/raids.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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But that doesn't make sense. What is there to abuse? You use a high cooldown reset, enter a dungeon to reset it, but what do you abuse it on? who actually cares about world monsters to save/reset cooldowns for them? dungeons? by the time you get to use that skill on important scenarios, your skill would already be up. There is no scenario that makes it abusable other than it being useful on raids. And by the way, SSS already resets cooldowns, I don't see why they're still holding back the idea of actual raiding scene cooldown reset.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

If the CDs were instantly reset upon a wipe, teams would call for wipes more frequently as there would be no penalty.

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...and so?? What's the big deal here? If a team is learning and want to wipe and try again, how is that a problem?

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Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

SSS already resets cooldowns

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Exactly. If there was a possible abuse out of this people would have already done it, and would still do it thru SSS if it were implemented in raids.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Exactly. If there was a possible abuse out of this people would have already done it, and would still do it thru SSS if it were implemented in raids.

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People do abuse the reset on SSS already. The difference is that abusing this on SSS doesn't have an impact anyone outside of the person cheating the system. Just because you do not know of the methods to abuse it, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are a few videos that have been published where this abuse was obvious (i.e. having buffs running when the SSS starts allowing them to double dip on those buffs).

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

(i.e. having buffs running when the SSS starts allowing them to double dip on those buffs).

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Well... a wipe (i.e. death) removes all buffs anyway, so...?

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

People do abuse the reset on SSS already. The difference is that abusing this on SSS doesn't have an impact anyone outside of the person cheating the system. Just because you do not know of the methods to abuse it, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are a few videos that have been published where this abuse was obvious (i.e. having buffs running when the SSS starts allowing them to double dip on those buffs).

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So what if people are "abusing" this and double dipping. It's a single player dps meter and has zero impact on any actual raids. People only hurt themselves by inflating their own numbers as they will be weaker in an actual raid.
Even if this is a problem or a concern that it could be abused in actual raids, the devs could have all magic/skill based buffs stripped when entering these areas.

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Originally Posted by Gokuhan

So what if people are "abusing" this and double dipping. It's a single player dps meter and has zero impact on any actual raids. People only hurt themselves by inflating their own numbers as they will be weaker in an actual raid.
Even if this is a problem or a concern that it could be abused in actual raids, the devs could have all magic/skill based buffs stripped when entering these areas.

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Sigh, I suggest you read what that post was in relation to. In fact, I'm a little confused at your entire post since you essentially rephrased everything I stated in an effort to counter my point? My post was in regards to someone stating that since SSS resets all cooldowns, if the possibility of abuse was present, people would already be abusing it. My post stated that people do in fact abuse the cooldown reset and then I go into stating essentially everything you said in the first half of your post.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Well... a wipe (i.e. death) removes all buffs anyway, so...?

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I suggest you read the entire thread, as others have provided hypothetical situations in which a boss wipe does not necessarily equate to a full raid wipe. Granted those are hypothetical situations, the Devs would have to account for their possibility when implementing a cooldown reset. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for cooldown reset after a wipe as it's annoying having to wait. But, I'd rather they did it in a way that prevents it being abused instead of just doing it and fixing the abuse after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

My post stated that people do in fact abuse the cooldown reset and then I go into stating essentially everything you said in the first half of your post.

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Which is why people (like myself) suggest that you only get CD's reset if you release (so you need to be KO'd and then be removed from the battlefield). This way the only thing you're waiting on is MP.

what about doing a cooldown reset like ''your all need to stay alive like 3 minute after the beginning of the fight'' if wipe after the 3 minute spend well all cooldown going to reset in that way no abuse at all

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

I suggest you read the entire thread, as others have provided hypothetical situations in which a boss wipe does not necessarily equate to a full raid wipe. Granted those are hypothetical situations, the Devs would have to account for their possibility when implementing a cooldown reset. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for cooldown reset after a wipe as it's annoying having to wait. But, I'd rather they did it in a way that prevents it being abused instead of just doing it and fixing the abuse after the fact.

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and yet others have provided solutions to those hypothetical situations (as in, don't combine the cooldown reset with boss reset, but with the reviving; that way only the people who actually engaged the boss and died would "benefit" from it).

Edit: Reviving at start, that is. Not being Raised. So in case of a "partial wipe", you couldn't have someone raise them to just outside to save them the run back. If you did, they'd have cooldowns on any CDs they'd used AND have the rez debuff.

Prediction: When they do add this, people will quickly figure out how to abuse it for unintended purposes.

I don't really care if someone will try and abuse it. I'm just fed up with wasting half an hour or more waiting on CDS during the 2 hours that we are raiding... Which is 10 wipes and wait for 3 min CDs(we never wait for the 5min or higher ones). True overall it seems like a minor thing but it does zap focus because instead of constantly focusing on the fight you now have 3 minutes to stare at nothing, watch youtube, get distracted etc...

As someone said - make them reset on release or everyone dead reset.

WoW has been doing this for years with no exploits or problems. Technically speaking, WoW resets cooldowns upon engaging, not wiping from, a boss to ensure there's no abuse. The only flaw with it is that they only applied it to cooldowns longer than 3 mins. for some bizarre reason, but I think recently they applied it to all cooldowns. However, WoW does play slightly differently from FFXIV, so I don't think resetting cooldowns upon engaging a boss is a good idea for FFXIV because hardcore raiders would feel encouraged to still wait for cooldowns before engaging so that everyone gets a double-use out of them. For FFXIV, cooldown reset should obviously happen upon a KO Return.

The devs really seem to have no clue what they're talking about in regards to this specific issue if they're still discussing this as anything more than a no-brainer. It's gotten especially worse ever since Heavensward made FFXIV fights considerably longer than most of WoW's fights. Note: I can't speak to Warlords of Draenor raids, only everything before that.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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If you want to avoid it being exploited in any way you can do this:

-Reset the cooldowns along as removing any possible buffs and debuffs.
-Apply it only on certain duties, like Alex savage or Seph ex. Not on dungeons.
-Apply it only if all party members were present in the fight that wiped.

Under those conditions I don't think it could be exploited in ANY way.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

People do abuse the reset on SSS already. The difference is that abusing this on SSS doesn't have an impact anyone outside of the person cheating the system. Just because you do not know of the methods to abuse it, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are a few videos that have been published where this abuse was obvious (i.e. having buffs running when the SSS starts allowing them to double dip on those buffs).

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Wait...so you're saying the abuse is doing SSS with double buffs? LOLOLOLOLOLOL....

...lol

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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I don't think it's hard to prevent abuse.

• Only apply it on Ex-Primals and savage (maybe only apply it as long as the content is new, i.e. until it's accessible per df with less than 8 players).
• Either don't reset on entering or make all players lose their buffs by entering (like when you get synched down and lose Protect/Stoneskin/Defiance) and reset CDs (like in SSS)
• make every player stay dead, until the instance is resetted (like in A6S).. there is no benefit in staying in front of the boss gate anyway.
• reset CDs, when instance is resetted (like how you get Echo in old Content on reset)

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

The dev. team is aware that there is a large demand for cooldowns to reset after a wipe. During the Niconico Chokaigi event held in Japan recently, Yoshi-P mentioned that while there are some concerns about the possibility of players abusing the cooldown reset, that they are actively looking into this.

We'll be sure to follow-up once we have more information.

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Hallelujah

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Wait...so you're saying the abuse is doing SSS with double buffs? LOLOLOLOLOLOL....

...lol

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Sadly, it appears reading comprehension fails you horribly. Let me state it again in an easier way for you to understand.

Kit-Kat: SSS already resets cooldowns

You: Exactly. If there was a possible abuse out of this people would have already done it, and would still do it thru SSS if it were implemented in raids.

Me: They are abusing it on SSS, thus the potential for abuse in raids exists.

So yea, having the potential to use some of your burst dps/healing/mitigation buffs twice during the start of a fight can impact a clear or a wipe at sub 5%.

You would think it would not be posible to map hack or do many of the other things that have cropped up in the lifespan of FFXIV. The point is coding is so complex and so many things could possibly go wrong that would not be expected that they want to very very thoroughly test such a change to ensure nothing strange crops up that could somehow under conditions X Y Z cause all CDs to reset when it was not a wipe. Things like this that were not originally worked into the code are more complex to add later and make sure nothing goes wierd, and the worst thing would be to put it in and have some way to reset them that could be found and abused like crazy before it was known to SE and stopped. That is what they dont want, and what we all should not want to happen either.

lets be honest, if your just learning mechanics, you dont need all CDs ready when pulling anyways, and by the time your hitting enrage and know all the mechanics, the wait isnt that long unless there is a long CD that you use right at the end of the fight and plan to use again in the first bit of the fight (which is not common)

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

Sadly, it appears reading comprehension fails you horribly. Let me state it again in an easier way for you to understand.

Kit-Kat: SSS already resets cooldowns

You: Exactly. If there was a possible abuse out of this people would have already done it, and would still do it thru SSS if it were implemented in raids.

Me: They are abusing it on SSS, thus the potential for abuse in raids exists.

So yea, having the potential to use some of your burst dps/healing/mitigation buffs twice during the start of a fight can impact a clear or a wipe at sub 5%.

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But...aren't buffs canceled when you die?

The request is asking that cooldown timers be reset on wipe. When you die, your buffs expire, but the cooldown remains intact. Trials and fights like A8 don't let you release until the party is out of combat, so resetting the cooldown timer on release can't be used to double up, nor let players die just to get their buffs back. In fact, with boss lockouts, I don't see how resetting cooldowns on release in instanced content could be exploited.

The "abuse" that I think they're referring to isn't so much double-stacking CDs or anything exploitative like that. I think it's more along the lines of groups intentionally wiping because they screwed up their opener, or because they had an early accidental death, or heck even if someone didn't get as many critical hits as they wanted to in the first 20 seconds. The reason we want it is to not have to wait after popping cooldowns right before a wipe, they just have to find a way to set it up so that people can't just abort every time they have a bad pull.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

Me: They are abusing it on SSS, thus the potential for abuse in raids exists.

So yea, having the potential to use some of your burst dps/healing/mitigation buffs twice during the start of a fight can impact a clear or a wipe at sub 5%.

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I am so confused.

How are people abusing it on SSS?

1) When you exit SSS, all your CD's are put to their maximum.
2) When you enter SSS, they're all set to 0 so you can use them all in your opener. the amount of time it takes to exit, and re-enter SSS, is obviously long enough that at best you might get ONE, maybe TWO gcd's in? if you're LUCKY.

So where are you getting this 'abuse' of SSS from?

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

But...aren't buffs canceled when you die?

The request is asking that cooldown timers be reset on wipe. When you die, your buffs expire, but the cooldown remains intact. Trials and fights like A8 don't let you release until the party is out of combat, so resetting the cooldown timer on release can't be used to double up, nor let players die just to get their buffs back. In fact, with boss lockouts, I don't see how resetting cooldowns on release in instanced content could be exploited.

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I'll make the same statement to you as I did someone else, read the entire thread where people have come up with hypothetical situations that a boss reset =/= a full party wipe. Others have developed solutions to those hypothetical situations, but you can't just say that it's a simple fix because all you need to do is this when it comes to programming.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I am so confused.

How are people abusing it on SSS?

1) When you exit SSS, all your CD's are put to their maximum.
2) When you enter SSS, they're all set to 0 so you can use them all in your opener. the amount of time it takes to exit, and re-enter SSS, is obviously long enough that at best you might get ONE, maybe TWO gcd's in? if you're LUCKY.

So where are you getting this 'abuse' of SSS from?

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There were videos posted when SSS was first released that showed people with dps cooldowns active and off cooldown to be reused again during the encounter. Abilities such as Raging Strikes which on a normal SSS attempt you can only use once due to it's cooldown period were able to be used a second time. This could have been hotfixed to be no longer possible, but since I never bothered attempting this myself (as I and others have stated, doing this only cheats yourself) I can't say for certain if it is still possible. As for how they did it, I wouldn't know either as the videos started with the initiation of the SSS combat and did not show how they managed to have the buffs running prior to initiation with the skills themselves off cooldown and available for use.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

There were videos posted when SSS was first released that showed people with dps cooldowns active and off cooldown to be reused again during the encounter. Abilities such as Raging Strikes which on a normal SSS attempt you can only use once due to it's cooldown period were able to be used a second time. This could have been hotfixed to be no longer possible, but since I never bothered doing this myself (as I and others have stated, doing this only cheats yourself) I can't say for certain if it is still possible. As for how they did it, I would know either as the videos started with the initiation of the SSS combat and did not show how they managed to have the buffs running prior to initiation with the skills themselves off cooldown and available for use.

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I mean. Heres the thing, I checked it myself (Because hey, doing research) - and like I said. AT BEST, you can get 1, maybe TWO attacks in if you play it right, with the buff up. It's really not as broken as you're trying to play it out to be. Matter of fact, most the time - those very same buffs (raging strikes) would've been popped before the first hit anyways. So no, it's really not broken to have that, and even if you COULD get a whole 1-2 extra whopping attacks in, you'd likely be screwing up your own rotation doing it, and poorly training yourself for a real encounter.

And you somehow think that people will abuse this in a raid scenario? No. First of all, when you DIE, you lose all your buffs. So that's already out the window. As for what you said - the idea of resetting it based upon the Boss itself resetting, that is indeed available to abuse if they chose to do it that way.

But like you said, read the whole thread. There were counter-suggestions that said it should only happen during the Fade to Black Reset screen, which is ONLY possible in the scenario of a full party wipe. This means things like a5S sadly wouldn't have the benefit, but honestly - I think SE should avoid annoying turns like A1/A5 (Where you have to fight a striking dummy miniboss before an actual boss.)

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

But like you said, read the whole thread. There were counter-suggestions that said it should only happen during the Fade to Black Reset screen, which is ONLY possible in the scenario of a full party wipe. This means things like a5S sadly wouldn't have the benefit, but honestly - I think SE should avoid annoying turns like A1/A5 (Where you have to fight a striking dummy miniboss before an actual boss.)

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Thank you for showing your ability to cherry pick what you want to read. Try reading the first part of my post in response to Jpec07 in which I state that others have come up with solutions to those hypothetical situations. In fact, let me make it easier for you and I'll just re-post it here.

"I'll make the same statement to you as I did someone else, read the entire thread where people have come up with hypothetical situations that a boss reset =/= a full party wipe. Others have developed solutions to those hypothetical situations, but you can't just say that it's a simple fix because all you need to do is this when it comes to programming."

Just spouting off methods to prevent the type of abuse I'm explaining doesn't mean that it is easy to implement or that it is even possible to implement based on the current code. It might be a situation where if they want to do it in one of these methods, it would require the code to be rewritten from scratch. It could also mean that it is just a simple coding addition that is very easy to implement. The end result is, we just don't know the current coding situation so spouting off how easy it is to prevent abuse is meaningless.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if you get 1-2 extra attacks in by abusing the system, the fact that the system can be abused needs to be addressed before implementing changes (another thing I've mentioned at least once already in this thread). Another form of abuse that I personally haven't thought of yet is outlined inPLitz's post below:

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Originally Posted by PLitz

The "abuse" that I think they're referring to isn't so much double-stacking CDs or anything exploitative like that. I think it's more along the lines of groups intentionally wiping because they screwed up their opener, or because they had an early accidental death, or heck even if someone didn't get as many critical hits as they wanted to in the first 20 seconds. The reason we want it is to not have to wait after popping cooldowns right before a wipe, they just have to find a way to set it up so that people can't just abort every time they have a bad pull.

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Edit - Used the correct quote at the end, originally had the wrong person quoted.

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Originally Posted by PLitz

The "abuse" that I think they're referring to isn't so much double-stacking CDs or anything exploitative like that. I think it's more along the lines of groups intentionally wiping because they screwed up their opener, or because they had an early accidental death, or heck even if someone didn't get as many critical hits as they wanted to in the first 20 seconds. The reason we want it is to not have to wait after popping cooldowns right before a wipe, they just have to find a way to set it up so that people can't just abort every time they have a bad pull.

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Honestly is a good point, the ability to reset all cooldowns upon wipes would just encourage the mentality of dying until they get the ideal situation they are aiming for.