This game needs better DPS feedback

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

She was talking about players in level 60 duty finder. This isn't a place where people often use enmity reducing skills"

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Then you are running with terrible or, at very least, lazy, dps.
If I don't open with quelling I will almost certainly tear hate from a boss in my opener.

This doesn't make me awesome, "hey look at me, my dps must be great cos the tank cant even hold hate!", it makes the fight annoying for everyone else, with boss running about, healer having to try and heal me and the tank, and me prob dying when manaward/wall run out

I made a topic a month before 3.2 saying that with the incoming mentor roulette, SSS and the hall of the novice, they really had an opportunity and an obligation to do something about the general level of play in this game.

Needless to say that topic was swept under the run by a bunch of care-bears and topics about how we need to update the dozing animation on miqotes.

I think at this point it's safe to say that all three of those things have flopped badly. Mentor roulette is just another tome resource for most, SSS is way too vague and mechanically deficient, and hall of the novice didn't go anywhere close to far enough both in implementation and reach. SE failed and we failed SE and ourselves by not demanding more / providing better input.

They really should just have a screen at the very end of a dungeon run after a clear that shows how much % of damage was done by each player. Just the normal everyday 4 man dungeons, using the same setup as the PvP style final score screens would be fine.

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Originally Posted by whythehate

That is what we would hope every fledging dps would do, however some well most...are just ignorant to how poorly they do.

If you entered a duty in your shiny i230 weapon with lore armour and then saw at the end of the fight a player with a i200 weapon absolutely smashed your dps as the same class, maybe then these players would question their own playstyle or ask how the good dps did it.

I really love it when farming Alex and I see level 50 dps >¿<

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Well sorry, i really don't care if i finish a dungeon in 15 minutes or 18 minutes. I even sometimes forget to activate poison when i switched from another class for the duty. Shit happens, get off your elitist horse.

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Originally Posted by NailBach

Well sorry, i really don't care if i finish a dungeon in 15 minutes or 18 minutes. I even sometimes forget to activate poison when i switched from another class for the duty. Shit happens, get off your elitist horse.

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This is why we can't have nice things.

He said if you could see that someone undergeared compared to you, "smashed" your dps, maybe you could see there is some room for improvement. You could ask questions, but nope. We all have lazy dungeon runs sometimes of forgetful ones. As long as we recognize when we are trying and still not hitting as high as we want, we can look for ways to get better.

lul. 2 gud 2 get better.

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Originally Posted by NailBach

Well sorry, i really don't care if i finish a dungeon in 15 minutes or 18 minutes. I even sometimes forget to activate poison when i switched from another class for the duty. Shit happens, get off your elitist horse.

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I feel that this sort of attitude is degenerative to the playerbase as a whole. People mistaking sheer elitism for players who feel that laziness, an unwillingness to learn and "I play for fun"... (not "forgetting to activate poison") isn't a good mind set. The problem is muddled in false correlation of fun with being a terrible player which simply isn't true, trying to improve yourself and actually improving can be fun.

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Originally Posted by NailBach

Well sorry, i really don't care if i finish a dungeon in 15 minutes or 18 minutes. I even sometimes forget to activate poison when i switched from another class for the duty. Shit happens, get off your elitist horse.

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You know, people not caring or knowing about their DPS can also become problematic to other players. Most recently, in a situation like A8 when it was still relatively new, the instance isn't even that hard, but DPS failing to kill the adds makes the fight needlessly painful. I'm not talking about people doing 800 DPS (which is well below the ideal), I've seen plenty do close to 400; that is DPS so low that healers and tanks will beat them out. At some point, high DPS from other players can't carry under-performing players, and I have seen that happen plenty. It's not a situation that comes up often, but when it does, what then? There's only so much you can tell them on the fly, or even before hand, since there's no guarantee other people will know what to tell a player to improve, let alone considering whether they will take advice with good graces. When it becomes obvious that DPS is the problem, like tanking and healing being relatively transparent to mistakes, DPS shouldn't get a free ride to victory without some work.

To get to that point and not even being able to pull out of the bracket of level 50 DPS is astonishing. While not everyone cares, if people could see how they performed, then there very well are players that would want to improve.

It's kind of funny how this issue always comes into a issue of morality or a persons feelings or something.

Nowadays, a large group of one million people can be told they can't have pancakes because one dude sitting in the corner thinks pancakes are gross and hates them. Therefore, no one else can have any pancakes either, because of the one unhappy, pancake-hating angry person. Somehow, having pancakes or not, a innocuous choice, has become a topic for debate when it shouldn't be. That one dude could just not have pancakes, it's fine. Why does the rest of everyone else not get any just cause of the one dude? He probably only hates pancakes because he knows that they are tasty and delicious and almost everyone in the world loves them. He just wants to be the special pancake-hating dude. He can hate pancakes all he wants but why do we give him super villain powers of denying the entire world of pancakes?

Don't be the pancake hater... just don't.

I would like to say that it also doesn't help that skills in FFXIV are not ever entirely replaced by new ones as you level, while in most other MMOs, you just spam the same 5 skills or even less once you hit the level cap. That would probably throw off a lot of people in this game, the idea that you basically need to learn how to manage most, if not ALL of your skills in order to be truly effective.

I don't mean to say that this is actually a bad thing, but the sort of feedback we desire to have the community become better at playing as a whole is never really going to exist when 1) there are people that will take any criticism as a personal attack, and 2) there are people that will oppose any means of upfront damage feedback out of fears that it would foster elitism, even if it is just that - fears.

Like PvP the end of dungeons should show a scoreboard of how much damage/healing/damage taken each player has done. So then if a dps sees they are doing less damage then say a tank they know they need to improve.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

You know, people not caring or knowing about their DPS can also become problematic to other players. Most recently, in a situation like A8 when it was still relatively new.

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Its not a "past" issue.

It is still there.

Got a group this weekend with very bad overall DPS.

One of them did less than 400 DPS. The next one was around 550 DPS and the last was a little bit lower than 600 DPS.

I dealt around 1200 DPS, but that was not enough to catch up and bring this fight to an end. Between 55-60% the enrage did finish us.

I do not play DD as my main job and I'm not focussing to get the playstyle close to its maximum. I do not use food or pots for this job. I have not the best gear or am close to BiS. It should be an easy thing to beat my damage numbers.

So yes:

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people not caring or knowing about their DPS [...] become problematic to other players

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Originally Posted by NailBach

Well sorry, i really don't care if i finish a dungeon in 15 minutes or 18 minutes. I even sometimes forget to activate poison when i switched from another class for the duty. Shit happens, get off your elitist horse.

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You do realise doing your basic rotation mixing in a couple of ogcds will put you at 1k+ easy right? I'm talking 1 2 3 and your dots, I'm not talking perfect opener and absolute perfect cd usage?

If I'm seeing 600 dps your doing something completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like PvP the end of dungeons should show a scoreboard of how much damage/healing/damage taken each player has done. So then if a dps sees they are doing less damage then say a tank they know they need to improve.

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Or if the 2 dps were monks and one did 1700 and the other 700 to show the poor 700 dps monk he sucks bad. Then he will either quit out of frustation or use that frustration to get better.
Maybe, he will continue to watch netflix and not give a damn. Just like most df garbage.

Instead of feedback, why not let players clear a content like SSS first, before they are allowed to join the dungeon/raid via Duty Finder? Right now SSS is optionale, but if its mandatory, then players have no choice, but to put their A game on and do their best. Afcourse this will not stop lazy players who are able to preform well, but do not care about it. A good friend of mine is a Monk who is probaly one of the best dps players that I have met, but during Roulettes and 24 man raids, he half asses 99% of those runs. I asked him why and he told me, because he does not care.

Feedback is nice, but it wont help the "I play however I want to play" and the "I dont care" crowd. Atleast by placing a wall before they are able to join, you know that these players even if they half assed the entire run, are able to preform well.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Feedback is nice, but it wont help the "I play however I want to play" and the "I dont care" crowd. Atleast by placing a wall before they are able to join, you know that these players even if they half assed the entire run, are able to preform well.

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I am still baffled by those enrage wipes at A8 where you die at 60%, but the second try you magically get enough dps. Miracle how fast can people improve.

Parsers or not, it is true that there are many players who don't care and just want to get the rewards with minimal effort possible. The lack of accountability and team based rewards just makes it more appealing to do.

Personally I tink players should be rewarded for the effort. It seems only fair that those who try hard deserve something extra... tho I would not mind if the content was gated behind SSS or some single player trials.

The problem started when they allowed putting in effort to be "optional". People don't suck as bad you think they genuinely just "Don't Care" because outside of Raiding or EX Primals the game runs on minimum effort requirements.

General Rule of thumb; people are only going to do what is necessary to get the clear. They aren't going to go above or beyond unless they "feel like it" If they allow one person to do 50% of the DPS required to win and others to skate by with only putting out 15% per person then guess what? That's what you are going to get. <-This is the current issue

IF Loot & Tomes were based on performance like some MMO's that Rate & Reward you after completion, the General attitude of the player base would be better but since we all get the same rewards whether we try our best or not you breed these types of players. Sad to say it's not the players fault it's SE's for making the game's difficulty scopes so drastic from casual play to raiding and the rewards so underwhelming.

TLDR; SE Give players a better incentive to be "Good" other than a commend and the same loot option as everyone else. Stop rewarding everyone for being mediocre and start rewarding the players who stand out. Example; MNK in BiS EX farm does 1200+ DPS but who wins the mount ? The BLM who only did 400 DPS or the nin who fell off halfway through the fight. <---& you wonder why people play the way they do.

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Originally Posted by Animarelic

TLDR; SE Give players a better incentive to be "Good" other than a commend and the same loot option as everyone else. Stop rewarding everyone for being mediocre and start rewarding the players who stand out. Example; MNK in BiS EX farm does 1200+ DPS but who wins the mount ? The BLM who only did 400 DPS or the nin who fell off halfway through the fight. <---& you wonder why people play the way they do.

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Being helpful in a group ain't all about damage though. In Dc universe online we have scoreboards. After a wipe, people tend to kick the players who did the least amount of damage, failing to consider that these players may have done less damage because they were doing other mechanics such as raising party members or activating switches or carrying key items (since you can't attack while your character is carrying an object.) I'm not sure if there is a way to factor in the other kinds of group contribution into the scoreboard though.


Also where would healers be? A better group takes less damage and so they'd require less healing. This would lower the healers numbers and make them look worse than a healer that was in a bad group with plenty of missing HP to patch up.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

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You basically answered yourself. Give players points for damage, healing, mitigation and mechanics.

Healers in good groups dps instead of being idle so that is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Being helpful in a group ain't all about damage though.

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If a DPS is job is to do damage how is that not helpful? Also in most mmo's the score system doesn't usually come up until you get a clear.
There are no mechanics in this game that should ever cause you to lose 50% of your DPS w/o being able to recover. Rewards in these types of systems are based on DPS, clear time, damage done & received as well as Healing. Healers always have lower thresholds than DPS or tanks to receive a high rating.

The point of my post was that there is no incentive to be good period outside of EX Primals or Raiding. DPS is small part you also have healers and tanks who are bad as well.
Are you trying to say a system to give incentive would somehow make the DF more Toxic than it already is ? The only issue I could see is people being particular about gear and ilvs but it's not enough to warrant a party waiting for 15 mins to vote kick someone since the only rating affected significantly as a group would be time cleared.

TIL that expecting lvl 60 players to do higher DPS than lvl 50 ones is elitist.

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Enmity meter

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Problem with that is it's all relative to the highest hate. Ignoring everything that affects it, then yes, you might get a general idea about the players against a single mob, if the gaps are big enough. But what if the bars are relatively even and you still hit enrage? Clearly it's the healers or tanks not doing enough DPS, never mind the fact that every DPS was performing under par. Even the guy whose bar is three times longer than the shortest one might just barely be above what's expected.

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I am still baffled by those enrage wipes at A8 where you die at 60%, but the second try you magically get enough dps. Miracle how fast can people improve.

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It's not that baffling. It's omnipresent in real life in general; people eventually grow complacent until they start to fail, at which point they redouble their efforts. It's a constant seesawing of effort put in, such that people don't expend more effort on things that they need to.

People learn to do this sort of thing as young children, even -- for instance, seeing how far they can bend the rules without breaking them and getting into trouble.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

But what if the bars are relatively even and you still hit enrage?

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Tank DPS is calculated with 1-2-3 aggro combo nonstop and healer DPS not calculated at all, so you can guess what "that" means.

Fun thing to do (especially as a ps3/4 player):
Google fflogs
Enter your name
Select void ark on the right hand side and all bosses on the left. (Most likely to have an entry)
Repeat with all categories until you see some scores.
They may be a few months old.

As a healer (sch) I'm about to see my healing contributions, cleric stance uptime, dps, accuracy, how often I'm overhealing, and other random things like how often I have fey wind up/rouse up. They tell you how you stack up compared to dps averages for the encounter (or hps, but that's less relevant)

It's definitely a fun thing to explore your past fights with statistics.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Don't be the pancake hater... just don't.

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Ah! This has to be one of the best post on this forum.

I won't lie, having a better dps feedback should be something implemented already, because it could make a difference for some people.

It did for me at least: for the longest time I played dps for fun, since my main is a tank and I obviously don't need to check for my dps. However as a dps my main focus is having high damage without dying, but I never knew how good I was doing. However I recently managed to get my dps properly and now that I see myself doing good damage alongside others, I REALLY feel more confident in my rotations and I never felt this good playing a dps. I suddenly realized that my damage was good and I've been playing dps more than ever, actually enjoying my runs as dps instead of fearing that my damage would draw everyone back.

I know this thread isn't about parsers in specific, but I just wanted to say that "it" benefitted me a lot and having an official "dps feedback" of some sorts could benefit more and more people than anyone can imagine: and as of now I'm kind of leaving the tanking profession and going dps more and more often, because I'm more confident in my skills. Sure, you'll get the usual stick in the mud but you'll also get the one who wants to improve properly.

And if someone starts to say "oh but it can be abused", I have said something about this in another thread.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

The answer is simple: Everything can be abused: it's not our fault if we can find ways to exploit the mechanics of something. It's SE's job to make it work properly without being potentially abusive.

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So yes, I'm all for better dps feedbacks, as SSS is completely and utterly worthless and imprecise.

Sss is very good for learning different openers since it resets all cds :D

Last month I got contacted by a fellow blm, I was actually doing a pf lf a static for savage. He asked for help as he struggling with seph ex, I was able to teach him all the different blm openers out there and gave him plenty of gear and job advice.

Pleased to say the following week he managed to down the fight and has it on farm.

All this because he failed seph ex dummy :)

He still contacts me Ingame and I set him the challenge of beating a7s dummy since his current gear can do it and he's only 40 dps off, I really wonder how many people do try sss before they start learning it?

Too the comment below, 1hr of your time learning the job rotation is all it takes to deal fairly good dps.

new and returning players will already be not as good as players in the grind, do you think they are going to be as willing to get back into a game when there is less patience overall and a eye on their performance even in the df?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

I made a topic a month before 3.2 saying that with the incoming mentor roulette, SSS and the hall of the novice, they really had an opportunity and an obligation to do something about the general level of play in this game.

Needless to say that topic was swept under the run by a bunch of care-bears and topics about how we need to update the dozing animation on miqotes.

I think at this point it's safe to say that all three of those things have flopped badly. Mentor roulette is just another tome resource for most, SSS is way too vague and mechanically deficient, and hall of the novice didn't go anywhere close to far enough both in implementation and reach. SE failed and we failed SE and ourselves by not demanding more / providing better input.

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Well, I definitely said that SSS, Hall of the Novice and Mentors were all going to flop - this became even more clear as every new detail was planned. I did a quick google search to see, but here is one example of me saying how poor Hall of the Novice was going to turn out back in 2015.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I have fairly low expectations for the training hall. I am guessing it will do no better job of teaching players how to play than Guildhests.

Players need to know they are bad or not performing well before they learn to improve. They need appropriate feedback to show them as such. As the only difficult content in game is team oriented, it's very easy to blame messups on other players and avoid accepting any blame.

In order for the training hall to succeed, it actually needs to be difficult. However, it won't be, and it will simply be another way to reinforce in peoples minds that they are not as bad as they actually are.

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Bad dps? Where? o.O
I mostly get people that dont care about mechanics, or dodge zones atks lol
I mean.. I feel like im the only 1 that knows how to ->stun<- enemys like Echidna(snake form) her wide zone atk.
Or NOT staying behind Cerberus 'cuz his tailswap is hard to dodge <,<

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Bad dps? Where? o.O
I mostly get people that dont care about mechanics, or dodge zones atks lol
I mean.. I feel like im the only 1 that knows how to ->stun<- enemys like Echidna(snake form) her wide zone atk.
Or NOT staying behind Cerberus 'cuz his tailswap is hard to dodge <,<

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Jokes? I mean, most DPS are really bad. I see very few DPS who actually ignore mechanics and don't dodge in regular expert level content. Extreme/Savage is another question

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Bad dps? Where? o.O
I mostly get people that dont care about mechanics, or dodge zones atks lol
I mean.. I feel like im the only 1 that knows how to ->stun<- enemys like Echidna(snake form) her wide zone atk.
Or NOT staying behind Cerberus 'cuz his tailswap is hard to dodge <,<

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Just gonna leave this here

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Snip

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My condolences. It always makes me wonder what people do to get that low, though perhaps the answer lies in them not doing much. ~_~

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Just gonna leave this here

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Holy... that has to be a troll post lol

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Just gonna leave this here

..or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

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GTFO my class you lazy scrub REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Just gonna leave this here

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LOLOL, this is too good.

Unless you're doing Savage or some new extreme primal, the game doesn't really punish you for bad DPS rates (except for slower runs, which isn't very noticeable to the person underperforming anyway, unless everyone in the group doing the same). You kill the boss, you roll your loot and your chances of getting an item is the same as everyone else, then you exit/repeat, so you aren't given any motivation or indicator that you should be doing better until you step into Savage etc.

There is the SSS thing, but it seems like only people who are getting into raiding would use it.

I was in a sephirot ex clear party the other day, and one of the nin's commented that he was jealous of the rest of our dps. Checked his gear, mix of 220s/230s, 230 weapon, no melds.. So nothing overtly bad. Mention of DPS made me assume he ran a parser.

Friend checked his own after, and said nin was about 400 dps under the other 3 of us. He had glaring rotation errors (and never used his own trick attack). Having the tools (and internet to search rotations) won't always save you.

..we didn't clear anyway. :( hopefully he compared his data to the other nin for some tips. Parsers might be nice to have in game for some reasons, but it won't save everyone.

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Originally Posted by raela

I was in a sephirot ex clear party the other day, and one of the nin's commented that he was jealous of the rest of our dps. Checked his gear, mix of 220s/230s, 230 weapon, no melds.. So nothing overtly bad. Mention of DPS made me assume he ran a parser.

Friend checked his own after, and said nin was about 400 dps under the other 3 of us. He had glaring rotation errors (and never used his own trick attack). Having the tools (and internet to search rotations) won't always save you.

..we didn't clear anyway. :( hopefully he compared his data to the other nin for some tips. Parsers might be nice to have in game for some reasons, but it won't save everyone.

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I just want to point out that no one would have probably known how bad that NIN was doing without a parser, and now he probably knows he needs to improve because of it.

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Originally Posted by raela

I was in a sephirot ex clear party the other day, and one of the nin's commented that he was jealous of the rest of our dps. Checked his gear, mix of 220s/230s, 230 weapon, no melds.. So nothing overtly bad. Mention of DPS made me assume he ran a parser.

Friend checked his own after, and said nin was about 400 dps under the other 3 of us. He had glaring rotation errors (and never used his own trick attack). Having the tools (and internet to search rotations) won't always save you.

..we didn't clear anyway. :( hopefully he compared his data to the other nin for some tips. Parsers might be nice to have in game for some reasons, but it won't save everyone.

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I think you are misunderstanding the point. Parsers don't save people, they allow people to see they are underperforming. In your story, this is precisely what happened - that NIN saw that he was really low and now knows he needs to work on it. It's not a magical thing that saves people from being bad, it's a tool to help people understand their performance.

If a parser was made available at low levels to everyone, they'd get this feedback as they leveled up (the time when you are learning how to play), and then create positive DPS habits.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

How to tell if you're doing well (DPS edition):
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?

If you're 4/4 on these, then congratulations! You're playing the game adequately, and no one has any right to tell you otherwise.


If you're not, then you need to work on your own gameplay.

There's so much more to being a good player than putting out good numbers. Putting out good numbers is a good thing, but I would much rather take someone who knows how to avoid AoE, or who plays their class to boost the rest of the group, than someone who's so fixated on their rotation that they die 50% of the time.

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Great post/point. The thing is, many gamers these days - particularly in MMOs (in my experience) are obsessed with numbers. It's all about numbers. Everything is numbers.

Based on what I've seen I could well imagine some counter-points to your checklist (which I agree with) would be:
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
- "But they could have died faster if "so and so" was doing at least 500dps, which according to my parser they're not, which means they are not playing their class/role optimally (translated: "not up to my personal arbitrary standards which I'm convinced they are obligated to by virtue of being in a party with me, another player, picked randomly from a cross-server pool of players")

[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
"Yes, but are they using them at the optimal times (translated: When I, or some guide on the internet says they should) thus ensuring the best possible DPS? If not, then they're bads and need to "git gud", or not stay in my DF parties".

[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
The healer or raid leader should not have to explain the fights or what to do. That just wastes everyone's time because they have to take the time to explain something, which means the dungeon can take longer than it should (translated: "longer than I want it to"). You are supposed to watch videos before entering a dungeon so you know exactly what to do, even having never been in there before. If you haven't, then you're a bad and are being carried by everyone else"

[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?
"Yes, but we should have done it faster. According to my parser - aka "God" - such-and-such role was not putting out optimal DPS. They were 50dps short of where they should have been, which means it was taking far too long for us to clear the dungeon. These "bads" need to "git gud" and "learn to play", because I'm tired of carrying them."

And by the by, those quotes are pretty much a mash-up of many, many such responses I've seen from some people for whom the game is all about numbers, and whom believe it should be for everyone else as well.

As for the OP, well, all the tools someone needs to learn and play as well as they'd like are available. It's not as though they're withheld from some players, and only available to others. At the end of the day, it boils down to a simple truth:
"Not everyone takes numbers as seriously as you do, nor are they obligated to because you happen to insist they should".

No one is obligated to meet anyone else's personal standards. It doesn't work that way.

Believe it or not, many people play these games for enjoyment, to relax, to have fun. They aren't concerned about whether their DPS output is "optimal" or whether they need to spend another hour fine-tuning their rotations, for the benefit of someone else's parser numbers. Put simply, all the preaching and derision over them being "bads" is not going to change how they play, because they simply don't care. They're not playing for the same reason as you, and how you think they should be playing is of no concern to them, nor should it be.

Fortunately FFXIV provides a perfectly good tool for people to gather exactly the kind of group you want to. It's called Party Finder.

If you're dead-set on playing with people who believe in playing at the absolute peak of what's possible, then you should seek out and group up with those people. Someone joins your group who isn't up to your requirements, etc? Kick them.

However, if you're going through Duty Finder, well, you have no control nor say over who's in there with you. The convenience of having the game do all the footwork for you means you're not always going to get your ideal group. Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Can't demand everyone else "raise their game" to your personal standard.