Request - DO NOT delete parry from the game

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

Tanks need a trait called Runic, allows them to parry(& block for PLD) magic damage

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Given that DRKs are the "Magic" tank, they should be the ones to get this with the parry, and the only ones to give them more of a difference from PLD and WAR. Been thinking this since the job came out.

I would like to see the current DA effect made baseline on DD, then a new DA effect where both the Parry and Evasion then applied to magic attacks as well.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Given that DRKs are the "Magic" tank, they should be the ones to get this with the parry, and the only ones to give them more of a difference from PLD and WAR. Been thinking this since the job came out.

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So that we can further remove PLDs from anything with magic damage? WAR's spot is still nearly guaranteed. Only PLD's magic resistance lags substantially behind the others'. Why further that relative gap where it matters (dueling for the non-WAR position)? DRKs waste Dark Dance, Low Blow, Reprisal, and Foresight, but gains Dark Mind against pure-magic compared to pure-physical attackers (a mitigation gain, 15% from a RNG 6% or 30% from an especially RNG 26%, though a MT dps loss and half duration). A WAR wastes Raw Intuition and Foresight (about 7% mitigation over time). A PLD wastes Shield Swipe, Bulwark, Shelltron, Foresight, and its entire bonus means of passive mitigation (a whole lot more). Which then, if limited to a single tank, most needs Runic, do you think?

Diverse identities come from gameplay, not niche. Making one tank the "magic tank" merely succeeds in diminishing to removing composition choice.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I would like to see the current DA effect made baseline on DD, then a new DA effect where both the Parry and Evasion then applied to magic attacks as well.

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That'd be cool except for how it wouldn't be a free bonus to LB / Reprisal procs (nice for dps-focused situations) would conflict with BP at all times, would be worth a whole lot more for free (approximately 6.67% physical mitigation over time, up from 2%), the DA form would be useful only versus magic enemies, and would further give DRK a mitigation edge vs. magic (which it doesn't really need).

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Here's how I think Parry should be changed, to make it a more viable stat (yes, I know some of this has probably been mentioned before...but it bears mentioning again):

Warrior: No change. Reasoning: Warrior isn't really a Parry tank, and Raw Intuition even works against stacking parry by giving a 100% parry rate for its duration. WAR is fine here.

Paladin: Make Parry increase the block rate of Shields instead of its normal effect. Reasoning: Paladins "parry" by blocking incoming attacks with their shield. Doing this right would change the balance of what shield is best in any given situation, but that's probably a Good Thing. :)

Dark Knight: Make it so that whenever they parry, they get a free autoattack (or other "attack" with a reasonable potency) against the target they parried, possibly with a (very short, like 1 sec) internal cooldown. Reasoning: Despite the huge sword, the Dark Knight seems to be more of a "finesse" tank than a "power" tank. The cooldown would be to prevent this from making DRK very OP in AoE situations, but needs to be short enough that (given good RNG) a DRK could, theoretically, proc this attack on every incoming autoattack from a single target.

Thoughts?

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If you want to make Parry more valuable for Warrior despite Raw Intuition, have the parry stat increase parry strength where parries are guaranteed (the same can actually be done with Shelltron, but Shelltron probably needs that less, being the whopping 30%+ it already is with a tower shield).

The Paladin change sounds reasonable. I'd just append one other factor to it. Make it increase parry (now block) chance by a percentile of base (given the shield type/rating), so that a tower shield gains less block chance than a buckler. Tower shields may still be preferred over bucklers even as bucklers near 100% block with Bulwark just for their extra Shelltron snap-mitigation, but at least then we aren't guanteed to, say, take a i205 tower shield over a i220 (or higher) kite or buckler. Rename the "Parry" stat to "Guard" to reflect the change.

For Dark Knight, I really don't think they need even more of a potency per minute difference between MT and OT vs. physical. They already have the highest dependence on parry of any tank. If you want to increase that severely, have Dark Dance increase the parry stat instead of base chance, or cause a combination of both.

I'd recommend not splitting the effects of Parry ("Guard") up among the different tanks, though; be consistent, aside from Guard affecting Block rate instead of Parry chance. And, when guaranteed, Guard increases Parry (WAR/DRK) or Block (PLD) strength.

Make any other adjustments via the abilities themselves. (For instance, Shelltron might always average its particular forced block with the strength of an equal-ilvl kite shield, Dark Dance might force its first parry (parry gives snap mitigation) and increase parry chance (against the target[?]) with each subsequent parry (such that we still have reason to pop it well before a given TB, instead of always saving it for the second of), etc.)

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Originally Posted by Falar

I don't see how evasion not working with BP is a problem. You can't have BP up all the time, nor Dark Dance. You have other mitigation for when BP is up.

It WOULD provide more chances for LB/RE procs, since now magic damage would be parryable and I don't think even MORE magic mitigation is a bad thing. An on-demand proc for RE would be nice, like a parry version of shelltron though. I don't see that fitting any of our current skills, it would probably have to be a new one.

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It's not that it's a problem in and of itself. But simply, enough enemies typically makes for some serious damage, for which you want serious mitigation. It's also when you most want DA-ADs to keep yourself up, a massive mana drain. Blood Price itself has the most effect when you have many fast-attacking enemies against you. And yet you already have two forms of mitigation locked out to you if you want to maximize Blood Price -- DA-DP and DA-DD. Now you'd have 3 forms detracting from BP, while also unable to collect bonus damage dealt from parry procs (mostly Low Blow, though that too would hamper BP during that duration).

I never said DA-DD would provide fewer procs. I said regular DD would. I merely said there'd be zero reason vs. physical to ever use DA-DD.

Personally, I'd greatly prefer all magic attacks actually had a place within a spectrum of actually magical to physical damage, or aethereal (Bio) to manifested magic (Stone, Ruin), and the latter was affectable by dodge, parry, and block. I don't think DRK and PLD (who has no compensating skill) should lose such large parts of their toolkit just because they're not being attacked physically.

I think MORE magic mitigation is a bad thing if it could cause DRK to take the lead in specifically magic fights, and especially if that requires balancing that would diminish its anti-physical capabilities to compensate. That would, again, merely phase it out of physical fights while phasing PLD out of magical ones.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Upon further thought, my wish list would be that they DO change parry to where the value affects both the rate and the damage reduction. Then they can change DD to where it boosts both parry rate and how much damage it reduces (maybe it could be just a straight +xxx to Parry since the value would affect both) and make the DA effect that now Parry also works on magic attacks. That should do wonders for RE and LB procs and make it a great cooldown while getting rid of evade. The only issue then would be RE procs as OT.

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Any time something is changed to do two things, without being doubly buffed, it does each of the two less than it used to do the one. You'll see the same with critical strike chance, having been changed to chance and effectiveness both (granted, with a sum of the two values not only failing to tapper off but being the highest weighted secondary stat for almost every job, a slight overbuff). But consider, what's actually more useful for parry? Coverage, or effectiveness? It's already considered unreliable mitigation, so should we be more reliant on a larger RNG trigger, or simply have that trigger be more reliable (greater chance, especially when paired with Parry rate buffs)? I personally would prefer the latter.

Having DD increase the Parry stat directly would increase dependence on that stat, for better or worse. Keep in mind that it is already weighted highest for DRK among all tanks, and that DRK is already equipped with basically an alternative to DD in the form of DM. Buffing anti-magic proc-damage/utility and mitigation would certainly give DRK a considerable anti-magic lead over WAR and leave PLD further in the dust. I personally don't think that is necessary nor wise. If anything, I'd rather see DD and DMs as two different (to some extent mutually exclusive) options, with situational preference, for dealing with magic attackers, or either (physical or magical). Keep in mind though at 30% chance at 20% mitigation is only 6% (further increased by parry stat effectiveness and base parry, ofc). Until exceeding 25000 magic damage to be taken, a single DA-SE (of, say, 1500 damage-as-healing for the prior value) would provide more mitigation/restoration, along with its extra 160 potency.

As for RE procs as OT, here's a suggestion that I've thrown out before that might be worth your time: Sole Survivor can now also be used on a party member, granting your half your parry chance and bonus parry effects to the target over the duration. During this time, any parries, blocks, or dodges either of you make will generate procs for these categories for both of you. That's an overbuffed spitball of an idea, but it would at least accomplish most of what's needed among OT utility capabilities.

I don't see how evasion not working with BP is a problem. You can't have BP up all the time, nor Dark Dance. You have other mitigation for when BP is up.

It WOULD provide more chances for LB/RE procs, since now magic damage would be parryable and I don't think even MORE magic mitigation is a bad thing. An on-demand proc for RE would be nice, like a parry version of shelltron though. I don't see that fitting any of our current skills, it would probably have to be a new one.

Upon furhter thought, my wish list would be that they DO change parry to where the value affects both the rate and the damage reduction. Then they can change DD to where it boosts both parry rate and how much damage it reduces (maybe it could be just a straight +xxx to Parry since the value would affect both) and make the DA effect that now Parry also works on magic attacks. That should do wonders for RE and LB procs and make it a great cooldown while getting rid of evade. The only issue then would be RE procs as OT.

They could just make it a better % chance return, like say 1 parry equals .1% chance. You can reach 1k parry with melding currently. Or just make parry return part of the damage that was negated. Parry sephirot's tank buster for 15k, reduced 3k worth of damage, returns 600 damage.

I think they should also make the activation rate visible on the character sheet.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Warrior: No change.*

Paladin: Make Parry increase the block rate *

Dark Knight: *whenever they parry, they get a free autoattack *

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* - cut

I like the idea, but i believe it would be a bit unfair. All tanks have access to parry (rest roles as well!) and parry should work same for each class, otherwise it may break current mitigation balance between classes. I.E: warrior without parry change would surely prefer to be OT, letting DRK take MT for additional dps coming from counters. Following that, new meta would make WAR meld their gear with crit/det while DRK should meld full parry (assuming counters would deal more dmg than crit-chance would provide). And after all, we want all tanks to meld parry, we want parry to be usefull for all tanks.

Ah, and i would love to see tanks melding different materia, not just parry. until its already been spoken, that dps meld full crit/det, tank full parry, but i hope it won't look like this.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I would like to see the current DA effect made baseline on DD, then a new DA effect where both the Parry and Evasion then applied to magic attacks as well.

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Actually DA+DD is quite overpowered right now lol. 20% chance for full mitigation is a lot! on trash pulls it works like charm, on bosses less of course, but it's still something when you are out of CD by accident.
If parry would affect magic dmg, then i would call Dark Dance just fine.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Actually DA+DD is quite overpowered right now lol. 20% chance for full mitigation is a lot! on trash pulls it works like charm, on bosses less of course, but it's still something when you are out of CD by accident.
If parry would affect magic dmg, then i would call Dark Dance just fine.

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I think the ability to Parry magic damage via DD would really help out. All these recent fights it seems like I never use reprisal as either I am the OT or the enemy is pure magic damage. If you OT, the slight magic damage you experience throughout the raid can then trigger Reprisal and if you are the MT against a non-physical attacking boss you can also proc Reprisal.

This is one of the main knocks against the Dark Knight----that our best debuff is unvailable as OT or as MT when the enemy is pure magic.

DA DD is by no means overpowered. Yes, its a lot of mitigation when used but it takes a LOT of valuable MP (when tanking trash, MP is critical), is on a 60 second cooldown, and negates some of your MP returns on blood price. I only use it AFTER blood price expires.

I was thinking that maybe parry should be treated differently with each tank. For warrior, each stack of wrath has an increased parry chance (to try and bridge the gap to 100%). Paladin doesnt do enough damage, so paladin parry could return some damage, possibly generating enmity as well. I dont know enough about dark knight to comment, but from what others are saying, dark knight should get to parry magic damage. This provides uniqueness for all 3 classes, and a reason to meld it.

I've mentioned this another thread and I'll mention it here to. They promised a fix for parry but here's my overall on it:

Either make parry useful or kill it with fire, at this point I don't care what they do as long as they do SOMETHING about it.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Accuracy does scale with all the stats because well. If you can't even hit the target you can't even benefit from the stats. So when you do, you do benefit from the stats.

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What you're describing is not accuracy scaling with stats, but stats scaling with accuracy. "Accuracy scaling with [stat]" means you get more accuracy from stacking [stat].



I do kind of miss STR/DEX affecting Parry. But considering the extreme stat increase with each ilvl increase we get at lvl 60 compared to lvl 50, it'd probably scale really badly. (At lvl 50, a ten-ilvl increase gave us +2 of Def/Mdef and +5-7 of main stats... Now? Ten ilvl increase means +4 Def/Mdef, +10-12 main stat. So effectively twice what we got at 50.)
Actually... considering that kind of difference in stat increases between lvl 50 and 60, it wouldn't be surprising if they added diminishing returns to all secondary stats -_- Since lowering the returns over-all would suck when doing level 50 duties either at-level or synched.

Man parry is not that bad.....I actually like it as a tank. And as a OT let's be honest do we realllllllllly matter when you're apart of a team with great knowledge of dps? We're pretty much there as a back up tank doing dps of what a bad dps can do.......yall trying to make Tanks OP for no reason.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Man parry is not that bad.....I actually like it as a tank. And as a OT let's be honest do we realllllllllly matter when you're apart of a team with great knowledge of dps? We're pretty much there as a back up tank doing dps of what a bad dps can do.......yall trying to make Tanks OP for no reason.

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Yes, we do matter. Even if our role is as backup tank, we should strive to do the best we can however we can. If we all had this mindset, then we'd have a lot more 'bad tank' threads. As any player of any role, you should be striving to be as 'OP' as you can be. That's generally what being a good player means.


Unless you like being a slacker.

In which case do you really think you belong in such a 'great team'?

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

yall trying to make Tanks OP for no reason.

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OT is a member of a 8 man party. And you should do your best to make some dps.
Otherwise party has only 7 members.
And that's not good.
For party.

I love parry....I've loved parry since 1.x.....I was the guy in 2.0 that melded max parry stats and DEX; while drinking dex potions to get the most out of parry!! To this day my tanks have completely full parry melds (220 drk at 950 parry with food?) ...........BUT THE SHIT SUCKS ASS.... I get on a good day 15% overall parry in a dungeon run (however I do average much higher than that in a sephi fight). Still I expected for over 900+ parry stat I would get better than 15% occurance * 20% mitigation/occurance = 3.0% mitigation avg (AND THIS IS ASSUMING HOMOGENEOUS DAMAGE ....I may have only parried all the shitty lil hits and ate all the big ones....).


Yes I understand if we're talking avg mitigation parry's avgs are comparable to all other tank cds (example Inner beast 20% mitigation for 6 sec on a 22.5 sec recast: 20%*6sec/22.5 sec = 5.3% avg mit [its actually better than 5.3% after the first use and if you factor in infuriate] ). But the main argument is "reliability". I don't think parry (with the exceptions of parry cds) SHOULD be a TANK-BUSTER reliable stat, however consider Storm Path. Storm Path is not a TANK-BUSTER saver by it self, yet if applied properly its a 10% avg mitigation [ that's huge!!]. I'd like to see parry mirror "Storm Path" functionality. I'm just dissatisfied with 3% avg mit with having over 900 parry stat (mind u that avg is WITH USING MY PARRY SKILLS like RaW int on WAR and DA+dark dance on Drk).

Back in 2.0 running thru second coil (not t12.....) on GREAT days I could get 20-40% parry rate and I was all str WAR so my parry's were worth about 27% mit/occurance (5.4-11% avg mit).

I like the idea someone said that they focus raids more around job doing roles [tanks taking more dmg not just large busters, healers healing more, and dps responsible for more dps checks]. That will force tanks to be more concerned with how to get their avg mitigation up instead of worried about their DPS.....

THEN they should increase the effectiveness of parry. I'd like to see for example that 1000 parry would result in an avg of 16% mitigation (which is HUUUGGEEEE....soo maybe 16% too big? how about 15%? whatever the new goal I want tanks to worry about avg dmg mitigated vs avg dmg dealt...... 3% avg mit is too damn small for a non-reliable tankbuster stat)

Javid put it well together.

Parry as a secondary stat, cannot be a second thought for tanks, but full parry melds also shouldn't be a thing.

Making parry to be a certain trigger each window time, depending on a value of parry would make it more profitable. skill speed affect ticks over time, why not make parry similar?