Dark Knight: Still Searching for Your True Identity

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

I don't see the problem with Unmend having a provoke effect PROVIDED THAT GLADIATOR was NOT a CROSS CLASS. It's a "What if" idea.

In A5s there's an add that always critical hits, and it's good to know that Raw Intuition won't work against it.

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It's not an issue of parity so much as relative strength of tanks across the board. As it's been, a poorly timed Provoke can kill the other tank or wipe the whole party by being on CD when needed next. Unleash wouldn't have that limitation, since it has no CD. If it were to have an internal cooldown on that effect alone, it would also need a way not to use that effect until necessary, or else you'd be locked out from using Unmend at all within a CD of the tank swap. Dark Arts could do that, but then you'd be paying 2k mana, a GCD, and a combo, with no CD, for an effect PLD pays only a 40s oGCD for.

Additionally, how would WAR cover this need? If Provoke is no longer cross-class, how are they going to do their instant swaps?
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I'm actually not certain Block always precedes Parry? I'd heard that they're ordered in %mitigation. I'd have to Shelltron test... a lot... at some point. But yeah, it is definitely Crit vs. Hit first, and then the Hit may be dodged, blocked, or parried. Pop Awareness first, and Raw Intuition should work on auto-crit mobs again. Alternatively, (just theoretical, as there is no precedent or current situation for it) if you were tanking two mobs who you couldn't face simultaneously (somehow, idk, both huge maybe, with a smaller attack range than hitbox) and the other hit harder than the auto-crit one, you could just face away from the auto-crit attacker for whom there is no defensive merit to face anyways, and just parry everything from the other... Strange, yet sound, if Awareness weren't available.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

This just blew my mind just now. Why isn't this a thing.
I think the cross classes should be LNC/MRD.
On a side note. Really good ideas here, but would these changes be a 4.0 thing or a patch thing?

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Thanks for the kind words. I think PLD/LNC works itself out better considering the two "mandatory" cross class skills that come from PLD. Provoke and Conv are far and away better than Foresight I think. Plus I a change to PLD/LNC doesn't require a ton of reworking for SE. No need to change current skills or add new effects. The real question, I think, is whether or not the gains I mentioned make up for the further diminishing of our already small pool of our physical mitigation tools. I tend to think they do.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why not just buff Dark Dance in the first place, rather than having a second, near-identical, 200% effect at 150% cooldown CD?

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I think because it gives you greater control of when you want to proc a Reprisal. Which is something a lot of people seem to dislike about the way Reprisal works at the moment. You would essentially be able to apply the KF on top of every other DD due to the way the recast times line up or hold onto it for when you want that mitigation. Either way theres still an element of chance, but you would have greater control.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's not an issue of parity so much as relative strength of tanks across the board.

Additionally, how would WAR cover this need? If Provoke is no longer cross-class, how are they going to do their instant swaps?

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Well unmend could be an oGCD or something. Or it could be made to not interrupt combos.
It's safe to say cross skills aren't changing at all. This thread was about finding the identity of DRK, and I felt that LNC/MRD would better fit it based on an earlier post.

That being said this IS a DRK thread, and my apologies if I came across the wrong way, but I was talking about if DRK did not have GLA cross skills. Warrior is fine how it is.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Well unmend could be an oGCD or something. Or it could be made to not interrupt combos.
It's safe to say cross skills aren't changing at all. This thread was about finding the identity of DRK, and I felt that LNC/MRD would better fit it based on an earlier post.

That being said this IS a DRK thread, and my apologies if I came across the wrong way, but I was talking about if DRK did not have GLA cross skills. Warrior is fine how it is.

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My mistake / idiocy. I read it as "not a cross-class skill (in general)" even though you were quite clear that you meant only that DRK wouldn't have access. My only real point is that you need to be careful when trading out toolkit parts. With those Unmend changes for instance, an oGCD would be the strongest dps increase in the game at present (at 323 mp every GCD for +120 potency), especially when paired with the lack of combo-break, which already makes it more powerful than Shield Lob or Tomahawk.

The game tends to have two defined type of crossclass choice - Thematic and Rolebased. Bard originally used to have Conjuror as one of its cross classes for thematic purposes, but people complained it didn't do enough damage and they swapped it to the much more boring Pugilist/Lancer.

Paladin has that issue. Conjuror is very much a staple attachment of the class in the series, the concept of wielding white magic, but in practise most of the options are pretty pointless. Stoneskin is really the only thing of worth from the choices for them and even that's incredibly niche. Marauder? Sure. Generic tanky/plate class that gives reasonably okay tanky utility stuff, but I think we all realise Paladin would be better off with something like Lancer, Pugilist or even Rogue instead of Conjuror (heck, Rogue would be awesome as they'd get Shadeshift and a weak AOE in deathblossom, plus group utility in Goad, and thematically they could always use daggers before the ninja patch anyway... but I digress).

DRK has been given Gladiator and Marauder and to me it feels like a 50/50 thematic/utility choice. Gladiator HAS to be taken by tanks for Provoke but DRK has always been seen as the flip side of a paladin coin really... so it also feels thematic to have them available. Marauder is just the "heavy plate dude" spec. Lancer would clearly be of use to DRK and the idea of Blood for Blood on a tank class as a strategically used DPS cooldown would be fantastic and rather unique to DRK (and suit its higher skillcap). It would give them a bit more identity.

Lancer would also give them Feint - i really am curious as to why none of the actual tank classes has decent access to a Slow (though yes, a lot of bosses are immune). Haymaker doesnt really count given evasion requirements - Feint would be perfect on DRK as the class does have that feel of debuffing and draining. If not in pve then in PVP having Feint available would give them much needed utility, as currently Feint is super strong in PVP but DRKs are just flat out inferior to PLD and WAR for the tank spot. It also boggles the mind that Keen Flurry, a parry cooldown, isnt available to any tank. Surely it should be available for the one tank that actually benefits from Parry? And I think we all know how nice Invigorate is.

Just having the regular GLD/MRD attached to them homogenises them a little too much. It's clear they started with baseline PLD/WAR abilities and just tweaked them a little for DRK and tried to weave in the dark arts thing later, but the class feels scrappy. It also suffers from self-obsolescence. Early DRK has Unmend and Unleash as being massively class defining magic abilities with a feel that makes them really stand out amongst the tanks... then you get Abyssal Drain and both become rarely used niche abilities.

If DRK is supposed to be the "battlemage" tank it needs far more magic damage in its kit. It needs Unmend to be used as part of its rotation (free procs or guaranteed crit procs after another skill crits maybe? Something like that?). It needs most of its wishy-washy skills that deal physical damage converted to Magic. It needs to feel like the class you want tanking when you have a bard and a double caster comp so Foes Requiem does more than just boost one dpser. It needs cross classes that make it stand out in its role rather than continually trying to be homogenised to be "PLD with different animations".

I feel the MMO mindset of things being Fair is what's killing DRK, and to a similar extent AST. A new class comes along and if they excel too much at something then the older classes get angsty. If it can't do something as well as the older classes then peopel complain. There's no element of -risk- with the new heavensward jobs. They were mostly cut and pasted versions of current jobs with a few minor tweaks and some fiddlier mechanics added to make them seem different, but in practise their niches are so close to existing classes that they don't really serve a purpose. SE need to take more risks. Make DRK a class that does almost 100% Magic damage in melee. Let them be a tank that takes Lancer and if people press Blood for Blood before a tankbuster that's their problem.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Too long

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There are a lot of things to talk about if it goes that direction. There will be metas that cater to certain compositions, i.e. Heavy magic comp, Full physical comp. That leads to the most troublesome problem in the game, which is how purchasable (both tomes/gil) gear are locked to each job. It's no longer an issue for tanks/healers alike, but it poses a lot of challenges how SE will want to distribute in-game currencies for DPS-ers since there WILL usually be the 1 most preferred meta, which easily leads to unbalanced gameplay. There are a lot more things to talk about like how fast you can maximize DPS from all the changes that make each job unique or how each job interact different with the others but to me it seems quite clear that SE wants a "fair" play where any job can be used to clear the hardest raid, no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Lancer would clearly be of use to DRK and the idea of Blood for Blood on a tank class [...]

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Nope. One thing- tanks will never get HP manipulation skills like B4B or Convert (BLM skill)
Simply put, you are trolling healers. Not o mention situation: "Convert used, cure II pl0x" ...Oops. Dead. That was bad timing. OT please voke it.

Of course, you can say: "Then use it when the timing is good"
Tell that to sprouts/trolls/chat-blinded sons of Leroy Jerkins who knows better how to play their class.

Don't get me wrong. i like the idea. i would love to see Dark Arts eating HP, if you have run out of MP, or Passenger eating up HP. But nay, those are just our dreams.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Nope. One thing- tanks will never get HP manipulation skills like B4B or Convert (BLM skill)
Simply put, you are trolling healers. Not o mention situation: "Convert used, cure II pl0x" ...Oops. Dead. That was bad timing. OT please voke it.

Of course, you can say: "Then use it when the timing is good"
Tell that to sprouts/trolls/chat-blinded sons of Leroy Jerkins who knows better how to play their class.

Don't get me wrong. i like the idea. i would love to see Dark Arts eating HP, if you have run out of MP, or Passenger eating up HP. But nay, those are just our dreams.

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Except for the fact that Dark Knight's have Living Dead, and when they have that up they want to die.

Adding a slashing debuff to something like nonDA PS combo would be just perfect and it's so simple Devs should do it now.

On more complex notes I'd like to see a party utility that is more unique to DRK and here an idea: Sole Survivor + DA. You can place it on a party member and that player MP consuming skill will draw from the DRK MP pool instead of his own. This wouldn't be original only but synergies with Walking Dead, Blood Price and other skill, not to say could be used to push some caster DPS in case of need.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Nope. One thing- tanks will never get HP manipulation skills like B4B or Convert (BLM skill)

Don't get me wrong. i like the idea. i would love to see Dark Arts eating HP, if you have run out of MP, or Passenger eating up HP. But nay, those are just our dreams.

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How would a tanking role lock you out from any and all HP conversion skills? You can easily have it work in a less deadly fashion. You can have an ability take up 30% of your current health over 30% (at 100%, 21%, at 70%, 12%, etc.). You can easily have a continuous drain. You could have a capped (per second) % damage taken increase that feeds mana or attack power in return. None of those things are likely to get you one-shot anymore than failure to pop Foresight. We already have plenty of health/timing/order-dependent abilities--Spirit's Within, Blood Price being hamstrung by DA-DD & DA-DP, etc. If a (now overcharged) DA-Souleater could already heal to 10% HP or more, and any single CD can make up most of the health cost, what's wrong with a DRK having the option to blow a bit of health to prevent overhealing at one hit and charge up increased effectiveness for the next? Now, I don't either think B4B or Convert are especially fitting abilities (B4B especially simply locks itself to OT rather than increasing MT complexity, achieving next to nothing, and at cost of far more useful cross-class abilities), but there's no real reason to lock out HP manipulation abilities for a tank; in fact, they're about the only role in which those skills are more than a mere 'is massive raid damage coming soon, y/n' check and actually enhance gameplay. It needn't be limited to idle dreams--the only idleness is in refusing to experiment with them in their most integrate-able role.

We have the coolest Anima weapon, so there's that. Also we have Plunge which is the single best thing ever. On those very rare occasions where I use a tank that is not a DRK I think "This is all very well but where's the Plunge?"

They shoulda been a DPS >_> this is what happens when you take a traditionally damage focused archetype then try to do something "new" and inverse it ._.

Fun idea. Put spike aura ALA vengeance on Shadowskin/ShadowWall and Magic Counter on Dark Mind. Make counter attack damage the same as what the skills reduce damage by. So 20% 30% and 15%/30% respectively.

Could be fun.

Does nothing for OT however. But we would get armor spikes.

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Originally Posted by Sephorai

They shoulda been a DPS >_> this is what happens when you take a traditionally damage focused archetype then try to do something "new" and inverse it ._.

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the funny is in the older ff they never have tank clases, only dps and healers, and the sage can dealt high damage and heal in the same time so nope, drk dps like paladin like dragoon like warrios and a large ect in the older ones.

the only think they change in this game is sacrifice, now is know like darkside and sacrifice MP instead of HP to increse our attack power, accep it, this is a MMO how heavy armor clases are tank, or complaing why our paladins can't be dps like cecil was.

Except a Dark Knight can far out dps even the strongest of magic casters in actual true to form FF games. Not so in special snowflake MMO FF XIV that wants to reinvent the wheel but just came up with a rugged boulder.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Except a Dark Knight can far out dps even the strongest of magic casters in actual true to form FF games. Not so in special snowflake MMO FF XIV that wants to reinvent the wheel but just came up with a rugged boulder.

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in middle game yeah, in the end all clases dealt a max 9999hit so nope

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Originally Posted by shao32

in middle game yeah, in the end all clases dealt a max 9999hit so nope

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You mentioned something similar in the other thread, and that is way beside the point. You're missing it completely. Also, FFXI is an mmo, and they had DRK right. But nevermind that, I'm happy that you're happy it's a tank in FFXIV. Just understand why people can be pissed off at some things when they're spot on, and don't try to change their minds by debating something that's actually a fact.

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Originally Posted by shao32

in middle game yeah, in the end all clases dealt a max 9999hit so nope

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Really just proving my point that DRK hit as hard as dps but with heavy armor. End of discussion.

yeah im undertand why ppl dont like this version of drk for wathever reason, but complaing for everiting over and over and over againg makes this is the only section of the forum how ppl complain for this job in particular and dont undertand this is FFXIV, this is not ff1,ff2, ff3 ect ect ect, in fact every ff have they own version of the clases with minor changes, i dont see ppl complain why cid dont have the iconical dragoon armor in ff7 or in dps forums why the blm can't dealt top dps only with ice spells.

every ff have they own identity and in this one, drk is a tank, and the best dps in MT mode, end.

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Originally Posted by shao32

yeah im undertand why ppl dont like this version of drk for wathever reason, but complaing for everiting over and over and over againg makes this is the only section of the forum how ppl complain for this job in particular and dont undertand this is FFXIV, this is not ff1,ff2, ff3 ect ect ect, in fact every ff have they own version of the clases with minor changes, i dont see ppl complain why cid dont have the iconical dragoon armor in ff7 or in dps forums why the blm can't dealt top dps only with ice spells.

every ff have they own identity and in this one, drk is a tank, and the best dps in MT mode, end.

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You're also complaining. And it's not for whatever reason. You obviously don't understand why (you just proved it there in this post), so really, just let it go and let's discuss FFXIV's. Please?

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

You're also complaining. And it's not for whatever reason. You obviously don't understand why (you just proved it there in this post), so really, just let it go and let's discuss FFXIV's. Please?

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in this particular post i have the freedom to say why i feel like a true dark knight and why, ppl use the excuse of older ff and i debat it.

for the part of "complaing for everithing" is more for the nektulos and the 99999999999999999 post about the drk, of course he can post whatever he want and i can debat all post because im a drk and im a tank for a lot of years so i try to debat why a job who can dealt all the conent and is in the 1º world raid groups dont need those chnages.

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Originally Posted by shao32

in this particular post i have the freedom to say why i feel like a true dark knight and why, ppl use the excuse of older ff and i debat it.

for the part of "complaing for everithing" is more for the nektulos and the 99999999999999999 post about the drk, of course he can post whatever he want and i can debat all post because im a drk and im a tank for a lot of years so i try to debat why a job who can dealt all the conent and is in the 1º world raid groups dont need those chnages.

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DRK doesn't need changes. DRK doesn't feel like a DRK. Two different concepts, the two of them being true.

Edit: Just for the record, I don't think it needs changes, maybe a tweak or two, but it definitely doesn't need any change. Maybe some QoL here and there, but still, that's just a maybe, from my PoV.

DRK needs identity instead of WAR/PLD half ass hybrid. Which is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

DRK doesn't need changes. DRK doesn't feel like a DRK. Two different concepts, the two of them being true.

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for you and other ppls DRK doesn't feel like a DRK, a respectable opinion, but other ppl like me feel DRK like DRK, at least with they heavensward lore that SE give us.

meaby i sound rude sometimes and is because my english is not my 1º language so sorry for that.

i like the dark arts system, is something unique that war and pld dont have.

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Originally Posted by shao32

for you and other ppls DRK doesn't feel like a DRK, a respectable opinion, but other ppl like me feel DRK like DRK, at least with they heavensward lore that SE give us.

meaby i sound rude sometimes and is because my english is not my 1º language so sorry for that.

i like the dark arts system, is something unique that war and pld dont have.

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How is Dark Knight different from Warrior and Paladin?

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Originally Posted by shao32

i like the dark arts system, is something unique that war and pld dont have.

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Actually Warrior already has it in Infuriate.

Which Dark Arts is a MP costing Infuriate on a 5 second recast that enhances certain actions that can be considered on par or related to IB/FC and Cyclone/Decimate.

So basically not original at all. DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Actually Warrior already has it in Infuriate.

Which Dark Arts is a MP costing Infuriate on a 5 second recast that enhances certain actions that can be considered on par or related to IB/FC and Cyclone/Decimate.

So basically not original at all. DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

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Infuriate isn't an additional effect unlocker. It's a weaponskill-unlock, with an attached passive boost. If not already capped. Now, if the DA-variants were a separate skills that consumed all or nearly all of your mana, and Dark Arts skipped the process of building that mana back, then those DA and Inf would be basically the same thing. But it doesn't. And they aren't. Combos themselves are the closer example of what DA does. Except this is a second layer, and it's paid for with mana, rather than sequenced GCDs. It might not be exciting, but it is technically original.

I'll agree though that DRK is mostly a Mystic Knight. Though that works for me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Infuriate isn't an additional effect unlocker. It's a weaponskill-unlock, with an attached passive boost. If not already capped. Now, if the DA-variants were a separate skills that consumed all or nearly all of your mana, and Dark Arts skipped the process of building that mana back, then those DA and Inf would be basically the same thing. But it doesn't. And they aren't. Combos themselves are the closer example of what DA does. Except this is a second layer, and it's paid for with mana, rather than sequenced GCDs. It might not be exciting, but it is technically original.

I'll agree though that DRK is mostly a Mystic Knight. Though that works for me.

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Building on Mystic Knight since DRK is really a lost cause I think the devs need to rework it more into THE magic tank. Magic Parry would go a long way IMO. DRK as it is, is the only Tank class I enjoy. I like WAR a lot but everyone caters to one and I kinda hate that.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Building on Mystic Knight since DRK is really a lost cause I think the devs need to rework it more into THE magic tank. Magic Parry would go a long way IMO. DRK as it is, is the only Tank class I enjoy. I like WAR a lot but everyone caters to one and I kinda hate that.

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I have no interest in "a magic tank". I'd love a tank for whom magic is central, or the gameplay for which is built around internal-external magic interaction. But I've no interest in a niche anti-typal tank. If it's enough bonus mitigation vs. a tank-busting magic boss, it's double DRK, LB be damned. If merely a fair bonus, it's DRK-WAR. PLD hangs itself in the unemployment corner. If DRK's average value is so centered on magic that its physical capabilities must be reduced to compensate, then DRK does the same whenever its unique skills go to waste, especially where mitigation outweighs damage (physically dependent LB/Rep unless Runic becomes a thing).

Well it's getting to the point where content is Phys heavy? Go PLD/WAR

Magic heavy? DRK/WAR

Can WAR function just fine? WAR/WAR

And I guess that's the issue. WAR is always valued at all times in any content while in some cases no one wants anything to do with PLD or DRK since their kit doesn't bring anything of value.

With DRK it quite simply wants to be in that MT slot all the time or it's kit gets crippled. Especially in lieu of Reprisal and Bloodprice.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Well it's getting to the point where content is Phys heavy? Go PLD/WAR

Magic heavy? DRK/WAR

Can WAR function just fine? WAR/WAR

And I guess that's the issue. WAR is always valued at all times in any content while in some cases no one wants anything to do with PLD or DRK since their kit doesn't bring anything of value.

With DRK it quite simply wants to be in that MT slot all the time or it's kit gets crippled. Especially in lieu of Reprisal and Bloodprice.

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I feel like DRK could play either side equally if only either WAR's OT damage when supplied (raid contribution irrelevant for this example) with a slashing debuff was equal to or faintly beneath DRK's (and perhaps PLD) despite those lost procs (unless consuming CDs for Abandon stacks and triple-FCs), OR if DRK just had some way to transfer those parry procs (or per-hit mana absorbs) to/from the MT while forced out of that position. That being said, I don't personally think OT and MT are really a thing any longer than mechanics (vuln stacks, etc.) force the MT out and the other in (in any other case, if the OT has CDs up and the MT has exhausted his, he should be [soft-]swapping in), but that potency/utility/generation difference per position really does seem an oversight for DRK (and PLD).

(At the same time though, I still want Defiance to increase ability healing taken, now that we have heal-potency abilities (Tetra, ED, Lustrate) rather than only 100% (Bene) and 25% (old Lustrate) max HP heals--yet another oversight that hasn't been fixed.)

What DRK needs is some sort of utility especially, but not only, as an OT, and I would preferably like to see that in the form of higher damage myself, but in the end, any kind of utility would help. I think we all agree on that.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

DRK doesn't need changes. DRK doesn't feel like a DRK. Two different concepts, the two of them being true.

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I've always wondered where this ideology came from. The real life origin of Dark Knights, the legendary black knights of medieval Europe, also known now as Knights-errant, were knights who wandered the land defending the people or seeking adventure to prove their chivalric worth or simply to earn the affections of a beloved.

In the series as a whole, named Dark Knights have always straddled the line of heroism and villainy. The very first, Leon (FFII), was a villain for most of his game, while Cecil Harvey (FFIV) redeemed himself. Zeid (FFXI) and Sidurgu (FFXIV) are both flat out heroes in their own right, who, while ruthless, get things done.

The Job doesn't really imply any mechanics either, while yes, they traditionally have cast from HP, Dark Knights in numerous installments use magic outright or forego this mechanic. Additionally, Dark Knights, while typically very offensive, usually buffer their self-consuming ways with high health, defenses, and vampiric attacks, traits we see in FFXIV. Really, Dark Knights here suffer more from oddities in their balancing than their lore or how they feel to play.

Pretty sure they take the dark magic aspect from the Blackguards and Death Knights of DnD. Maybe some of the other Undead classes.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

I've always wondered where this ideology came from. The real life origin of Dark Knights, the legendary black knights of medieval Europe, also known now as Knights-errant, were knights who wandered the land defending the people or seeking adventure to prove their chivalric worth or simply to earn the affections of a beloved.

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The wikipedia lesson is alright, and I'm not gonna talk about this again, so okay :)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have no interest in "a magic tank". I'd love a tank for whom magic is central, or the gameplay for which is built around internal-external magic interaction. But I've no interest in a niche anti-typal tank. If it's enough bonus mitigation vs. a tank-busting magic boss, it's double DRK, LB be damned. If merely a fair bonus, it's DRK-WAR. PLD hangs itself in the unemployment corner. If DRK's average value is so centered on magic that its physical capabilities must be reduced to compensate, then DRK does the same whenever its unique skills go to waste, especially where mitigation outweighs damage (physically dependent LB/Rep unless Runic becomes a thing).

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Indeed. They should not make classes that are more "Physical" or "Magic" based, that is themeless and lazy. Dark Knight also doesn't scream "Magic Tank" due to they're own lore. They should be more physical then magical based with their own lore.

Dread Spikes as a tank stance for example, reflecting damage instead of preventing it. It just sounds lazy. Dark Mind for example, sounds like a renamed "Samurai" skill, because Samurai might be able to tap into their ancestors or something to prevent magical damage.

Why do I like Warrior?
It has its own playstyle, its not limited to being Physical or Magical. It has its own themed abilities, it plays differently then Paladin. Just like DPS. Imagine if DPS had a skill that did 'triple damage' on some encounters and was far ahead the other DPS?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Actually Warrior already has it in Infuriate.

Which Dark Arts is a MP costing Infuriate on a 5 second recast that enhances certain actions that can be considered on par or related to IB/FC and Cyclone/Decimate.

So basically not original at all. DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

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same 3 combos in all tanks

PLD, active mitigation, all they have no exception and nothing especial.

WAR, deliverance defiance system, they build 1-5 stacks of wrath-abandon to use some skills at 5 stacks, every stack give certains bonus, more similar is the monk now with gl and some skills.

DRK darkside system, permanent buff how unlock certain skills and increse you damage dealt to 15%, reduce you mp, with darkside up you can use dark art for aument or add addicional effect to certain skills.

PLD and DRK shadow skin, shadow wall,, dark dance and reprisal are the equivalent to rampath, sentinel, bulwark and shield swipe.

DRK also have salted earth, plunge, sole survivor, dark mind,abysal drain, blood weapon and blood price none of the other 2 have skills like that, and no mercy stroke is no similar, the concept is the same but works diferent.

i dont know you but is pretty diferent to me, original? yes or not i dont care, unique compared to the other 2 yes, is more close to paladin, for those 4 skills but the combos work diferent.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

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I feel that as far as basic weapon skills are concerned, there isn't a lot to build upon. Most of the weapon skills we should consider as various martial techniques used by most practitioners of the Job. Just for the tanks, there's an incredibly limited pool of prior abilities, even including FFXI. Because of this, we're left with different iconic abilities and traits.

For Paladins, these iconic abilities and traits are simple to list: holy-aspected attacks, healing, using a shield, minor curative magic, and the recurring ability, Cover.

For Warriors, these iconic abilities are more difficult, since Warrior draws from its namesake, as well as Fighter and Berserker. So for Warrior, their abilities and traits are: High damage output, high durability, stat reduction, favoring two-handed weaponry, and the recurring status ailment, Berserk.

Now, for Dark Knight, things get interesting. Dark Knight is known for a few abilities and traits, the most common being sacrificing their own health for additional damage. Yoshida's team, very wisely, instead rewrote this as Dark Knights sacrificing their aether for additional damage and effects. It is important to remember that lore-wise, MP is more than just a stat, it's a representation of your character's available aether to weave magic, and at low levels of it, your character is actually mentally and physically exhausted.

Anyway, moving on, Dark Knights are also known for just two other abilities, sapping the enemy's health (Souleater) or MP (Syphon Strike), and the ability known as "Souleater" in most games. Here, it's name is Dark Passenger and Dark Arts. Dark Passenger is its iconic effect, a wave of dark-aspected damage that hits the enemy team for high damage (150-250 potency on an off-GCD is rather high for an AoE). Meanwhile, Dark Arts is the other half of Souleater, the massive cutting of one's HP, or in this case, MP to deal additional damage or enhance other abilities.

The only trait that Dark Knights are missing, and it is a rather recent one, is their ability to syphon stats from their enemies beyond just HP and MP. Part of why I think Delirium increasing magic vulnerability combined with making Dark Knights purely magical in damage-type would be beneficial. It'd help solidify the Job's identity and fix some of the gameplay problems.

Most of DRK's "unique skills" can't utilize Dark Arts. Shadow Wall weaker then Sentinel, PLD can Parry and Block and also get a auto block every 30 seconds. Shield Swipe pacifies, Reprisal is Warrior's Storm's Path off a Parry.

Some of the DRK's skills are indeed unique but for the most part the job feels more of a hybrid between the two and offers little utility in way of OT whereas the other 2 most definitely can. WAR with Storm's and PLD with Clemency and Divine Veil or even HG+Cover.

@MiniPrinny: Lore reasons are just excuses IMO, besides that I feel DRK's need to buff their stats at least in LD/WD to mirror casting Doom on themselves. LD/WD as it is now just seems completely lackluster and does not synergize with the user but more with the healer. Whereas the DRK was once self sufficient the DRK now has to rely on his allies more then the other 2 Tanks do.