You can't tab target on PS4.Quote:
Originally Posted by KorenA
But that's no excuse because it's probably easier to use the D-pad or whatever it's called on the controller to switch targets. XD
Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf
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03-29-2016, 12:24 AMHoodRat
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03-29-2016, 12:54 AMKorenAI play and tank with all three classes on ps4 you hold r2 or l2 and use r1 or l1. R1 being the closest and l1 the farthest. Google is your friend buddy, you can tab target on ps4, and you're silly if you didn't think you could. Watch YouTube.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
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03-29-2016, 02:40 AMJackFrossAs was said, tab targeting exists and is just as good on controller. Even when a boss jumps, you can re-target immediately by holding a trigger and a shoulder button simultaneously (R2 and/or L2 with R1 or L1). L1 cycles left, R1 cycles right, according to the current target. Initial target is according to laterality on-screen according to your character position.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
In addition to this, you can hold L1 and cycle the enmity list by using up/down on the d-pad, which tends to be quicker for picking out a specific mob. I generally use that method as a tank, to grab the one that's missing aggro, since if I tab past it, it becomes annoying to tab back, because fingers. -
03-29-2016, 03:10 AMHoodRatI just changed the filter and used the D-pad back when I still played on PS4.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
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03-29-2016, 04:44 AMKorenA
Tanking low levels is extremely easy even if you are with people who are 60 syncd down, just make sure you have proper gear, and you tab target aggro. Meaning if it's 3 targets, 1, 2, and 3. Shield lob 1 and start combo, flash mob, savage blade 2, flash mob, halone 3 and you should be fine, with warriors? Tomahawk or just run in and over power, over power 2x, flash once and same idea, start combo on 1, skull sunder 2 and butcher 3, or just over power to hell. If you lose aggro, it's possibly you are either not paying attention, under geared or just possibly bad at tanking.
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03-29-2016, 05:02 AMSpookyGhost
I play on PS4 and just use a USB keyboard + mouse. ( ' - '
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03-29-2016, 05:38 AMDuuude007
after having leveled 2 tank alts 1-60 in the past few months, I have to say its all about knowing what helps the most.
Once you get the buffs, emphasis of dungeons is depending on the buffs, but pre buffs there is a MUCH higher dependency on gear, and in particular, MH/OH for tanks.
As long as these pieces are properly upgraded, the lesser dungeons aren't so critically difficult, even lacking the buffs.
That said, this is a learning phase for a lot of people (Brayflox Longstop comes to mind) Where DPS start getting much more potent moves and need to balance their own output on more than just one enemy. -
03-29-2016, 05:58 AMKorenATab for closest and shift tab for farthest ^_^, I play on ps4 with both controller and kb/mouse ! It's fun swapping between the twoQuote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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03-29-2016, 09:05 AMtherpgfanaticYou are the kind of tank that whines about how nobody should use AoE, aren't you? I've seen your type before.Quote:
Originally Posted by KorenA
When you have a pack of five enemies, and you need to cycle through performing a three part combo on each enemy to maintain threat, and you don't use your AoE threat generator, you lose threat to AoE DPS such as BLMs, BRDs and SMNs. Hell, even DRGs and NIN can pull threat off you if they use their AoEs. That's what happens every time I see a tank like you cycling threat on every mob in a pack and never using their AoE after perhaps the first pull. I've seen it a lot.
The way you suggest prevents DPS from using AoE to burn down the adds and clear the dungeon quickly. You are the most frustrating kind of tank to appear in DF. Level sync won't help you when you play the class incorrectly from the start. Tanks are given an AoE threat generator before they enter dungeons for a reason.
On top of this, your suggestion to have "proper gear" is impractical. It is pretty tough to find decent tanking gear that is the same level as the dungeon, as the gear that drops in dungeons can be mid-range level for the dungeon. You are also dependent on random luck with drops, and the grey gear awarded in quests and purchased from shops is pretty weak in comparison to the items dropped in the dungeon. Thus a brand new player tanking with level-synced down DPS has trouble holding threat most of the time.
The problem here is that level-synced players (who are at the max stats for the dungeon and have stats no normal character of that class at that level would have) makes up a substantial portion of the DPS players that new tanks end up with, and the game mechanics for tanks aren't well optimized because the developers can't seem to balance the mechanics of damage and threat very well while adhering to a design philosophy where tanks do substantially less DPS than a core damage dealing class. That's the core issue here. FFXIV devs can't seem to create a proper balance through levels 1-60 for tanks doing less damage while dealing more threat, especially pre-tanking stance.
Any suggestions that DPs players should play poorly so they don't do as much DPS as they can, to compensate for poor class design affecting low level tanks, are silly. The developers should address the poor design issues that cause the issue.
Furthermore the weakening of tank DPS really makes no sense. The core reason why tank DPS is lower in some MMOs than pure damage dealing classes is because of concerns groups would simply only use tanks and healers, and ignore damage-dealers, because tanks have higher suitability. The problem with this thinking is damage-dealers are nearly always given utility that allows max group DPS to only be obtained when they are in the party (debuffs that enhance damage, or buffs that enhance damage, or other utility like sleep traps, stuns, silences, etc. etc. which neither tanks or healers have access to).
FFXIV, for some reason, has decided to both give pure-damage dealing classes the utility skills making them vital for a group to do max DPS AND intentionally made tank DPS significantly lower than a pure-damage dealing class. The latter is unnecessary because of the former.
If tanks did equal damage to damage dealers, threat issues affecting low level tanks partying with level-sync DPS would never be a concern because the threat multipliers on abilities would ensure a tank properly doing combos and using AoE threat generators would maintain threat, regardless of how much slightly better equipped a DPS was over them.
Instead we have a situation where pure-damage dealing classes have to hold back on their damage output to prevent overtaking a slightly undergeared tank. -
03-29-2016, 11:11 AMSynestraPre-lvl30 MRD can use Invigorate, but yeah after that you sadly cant spam it that much before running OOTP.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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03-29-2016, 12:06 PMDarthVellaI have so many problems with what you just said, but I'll limit myself to the two main issuesQuote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
A) Tanks have the responsibility to set the pace of the dungeon, adjusting the way they play if a healer or DPS is inexperienced or undergeared and cannot keep up. To suggest that the reverse is somehow not applicable is an incredible double standard.
B) AoE enmity abilities are meant to build hate, not to be spammed. A competent tank can open with one or two big shots and then move to the tab-targeting rotation, and can re-use AoE again should the healer or DPS start to creep up on them. That's what Kor meant. Hell, you main Paladin according to your profile, you know this. -
03-29-2016, 12:43 PMgiantslayer
My first character was a gladiator/paladin. As a low level paladin learning the ropes with no Gil to buy HQ gear for myself, let me tell you: the struggle was real. I was able to stay on top of it most of the time, but it was hard until I got shield oath.
This was close to two years ago, back when gladiators didn't actually have swords—they had %*#+ing daggers and paddles (so glad they fixed that!). There was no "nerf," and neither was there a "all tanks must use STR" meta.
My point, though, is playing gladiator as a first class sucked a LONG time ago, not just in 3.2. By the way, noob tanks (especially Gladiators) having trouble keeping aggro over good DPS in low level content is not new either. I've seen that plenty over the years. -
03-29-2016, 01:02 PMJackFross
Even at 60, you're gonna lose hate in an AoE pull if your melee focus one mob while you're dealing with threat on the entire enemy party. In a group of 6-7, it's incredibly difficult to pick out that one mob that's losing hate.
But... that's not a bad tank. When there's 3-4 mobs and one of the dps is single-targeting, it's a bad dps. Not a bad tank who loses aggro to that bad dps. -
03-29-2016, 01:48 PMchidarake
why are people complaining about tank hate issues in low level content like its a new thing..it aint.
the only reason tanks have issues is due to gear and skill. there is zero reason why any tank class will lose hate to anyone unless the tank is under performing.
even if you have one dps aoe'ing and another focused, with strong heals going out you really should be able to hold hate regardless unless your servely undergeared and even then you just dps alittle less to generate more hate via whatever means you feel is best at that point. -
03-29-2016, 02:32 PMKorenA
Whew this pleb decided to come at me without barely having any tanks leveled, please see post #46 Mr Martel or please msg me on Marlboro for tank lessons. I'll be glad to teach you drk and warrior and probably paladin too. Need some tissue babeh?
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03-29-2016, 02:37 PMGeulaPeople are complaining because it is an issue and in at least my opinion should be at least addressed somehow by the dev team. Speaking about my opinion, while damage dealers and healers can perform their role undergeared/underlevelled usually without problem thanks to the way the game is balanced a tank will not be able to keep up even if they over-perform and that is in my opinion the reason why this is such a "hot thread". Let me point out though that the boss fights aren't a problem, it's the trash mobs AoE that is the issueQuote:
Originally Posted by chidarake
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03-29-2016, 04:07 PMtherpgfanaticNot pulling four or five separate packs of trash mobs onto yourself because the healers and DPS are undergeared is not the same thing as someone doing their DPS combo rotations correctly for max DPS output.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVella
If they aren't intended to be spammable, why do they have a very very short cooldowns of 2.5 seconds, the same as GCD, and are instant cast?Quote:
B) AoE enmity abilities are meant to build hate, not to be spammed.
That's a rhetorical question, by the way. They are meant to be spammed.
First off, if you are playing using a game controller there is no simple "tab-targeting". There is "attack the enemy nearest in front of where your character is looking" and "cycle through every clickable object or character within 100 ft of you, both enemies and players, without any consideration to distance" by pressing the arrow keys or whatever buttons you've tied those commands to. So let's not pretend it's a simple matter to tab-target through a pack of 5-6 trash mobs and land precisely on the one you want every time, especially when you may have 1-2 DPS inside the pack, along with other clickable objects in the general area like chests and lore notes. The most absolute and reliable way to target an enemy is to disengage from the one you are attacking and point your character directly at it then hit the X button.Quote:
A competent tank can open with one or two big shots and then move to the tab-targeting rotation, and can re-use AoE again should the healer or DPS start to creep up on them. That's what Kor meant. Hell, you main Paladin according to your profile, you know this.
And TIME is an important resource in this discussion, because while you are fighting with your tab-targeting to lock onto the enemy you want, the DPS and healers are all generating threat --and you are not.
Second of all, let's consider the amount of TIME it takes to actually cast a three part enmity combo on an enemy. It takes 7.5 seconds to perform a full combo. If you have three enemies, then it takes 22.5 seconds to complete one cycle through them. If you have 4 enemies, it takes 30 seconds. If you have five enemies it takes 37.5 seconds.
If you pulled two packs of trash mob (which happens often in a dungeon as certain rooms are designed to pull multiple packs onto the tank, along with wandering patrols that have a wide aggro net so a healer or range DPS very often unintentionally pulls aggro), you probably have around eight enemies to contend with. That is an entire 60 seconds / 1 minute to perform a combo on each individual enemy.
Meanwhile as an example you've got the SMN / ARCN spreading three stacks of dots on every enemy in the pack, and raining death with Garuda / Carbuncle (even the Carbuncle has Downburst which is an AoE damage skill) , and a healer who has probably used a HoT by now and is steadily gaining threat on every enemy targeting you as they contribute to DPS, even if you aren't generating threat on it by not using your AoE. And your other DPS have either spammable DoTs they can apply to the pack, or spammable AoE in the case of BLM / THAUM.
Are you still going to insist tab-cycling is superior to just spamming Flash / Overpower / Unleash to front load threat, or can we drop this farce of a "recommendation" which anyone with even a basic understanding of the game mechanics knows is not realistic?
tl:dr your recommendation to tab-cycle and cast a three part combo on every enemy is impractical unless the DPS and healers in the party are absolutely terrible at their class and making the run take x4 or x5 slower by not adopting AoE tactics against packs of trash mobs. As many players are indeed bad at their class I can see how you can get away with it, but any good player will pull threat off you because your tag-cycling technique is terrible at generating AoE threat.
I know, because I've encounter tanks like this before. They lose threat to my SMN all the damn time.
The point I was originally making is the proper way to tank trash mobs isn't working very well for low level tanks because of two factors;
1) a 15% DPS nerf to tank damage from the recent patch and;
2) The new enmity calculations are built around a tank having their tank stance on, which low level tanks do not have.
This becomes very apparent when a tank is with DPS who are level synced down to the dungeon and have the max stats any character can have at that level, meaning they have levels of DET and STR / DEX / INT that the majority of same-level DPS wouldn't normally have given the level range and improbability of a normally leveling character having the best possible items and the max character lv of the dungeon. Level synced characters can effectively be anywhere from 1 to 7 levels above the tank, yet the tanks enmity multipliers are not suitable for handling this difference. -
03-29-2016, 04:44 PMSeezur_Undies
Oh FFS! I am sick of the bitching about the stat switch from str to vit, it is not nor ever was a fuggin "Nerf" all you are qq-ing about is that you dont know how to use your mitigations/cooldowns correctly
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03-29-2016, 05:01 PMtherpgfanaticIt was a nerf. The STR / VIT calculation was not done the way people think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seezur_Undies
VIT is 0.44 AP and STR is 0.44 AP.
As VIT and STR are equal on tank gear, pre-materia slotting, Tanks in 3.2 only get 88% of the Attack Power an item used to give. And each point of VIT or STR is only worth .44 AP versus the full point of AP it used to be for STR.
Let me state this again for you; every STR materia you slot for AP is 56% less effective than it was before the patch.
Every VIT bonus at level up or from materia you take now is 56% less effective at increasing DPS, than STR was pre-patch.
So don't tell me it's not a nerf. It's a nerf. Tanks do less damage than they were capable of pre-patch. That's a mathematical fact and it explains why STR stacking tanks haven't been able to simply start stacking VIT and recover their DPS.
And here's the really stupid thing. Stacking VIT doesn't actually improve survivability for PLD or DRK. It really only benefits WARs because Defiance increases max HP by 25%. At level 60 each point of VIT is only worth 20.5 HP. When I switched from STR to VIT on my PLD, I barely even noticed the HP increase, but I most certainly noticed the DPS decrease.
I should also add this isn't the only issue affecting tank itemization. Much of our gear has parry on it eating up points allocated to the item, and taking away from potential DET or ACC. Parry is generally agreed to be a largely worthless stat, even if you are not a PLD (as Block supersedes parry).
All of this contributes to tank issues. -
03-29-2016, 06:24 PMAsdrubael
actually your last comment just defeated your entire point mista thread maker. the str type tanks usually only show up during the end game content or the person who is using the class or job is using an alt or starting over or their 2nd class. the AVERAGE NEW PLAYER WILL FOCUS ON VITALITY instinctively going with the logic of more hp will give more survivabilty WHICH in low lvl dungeons 20.5 hp per vit stat you have can mean life or death for a tank. even in lvl 60 dungeonsi've been dropped to 200 hp in lvl 60 dungeons where if i didnt focus on my vit i'd be dead. so rather than compaing about how your str jockey tanks got castrated look at the positive side the NEWBS that YOU are just SOOOOO concerned about can focus on vit and still have the same AP as a STR jockey does. if you're not a newb and experience tank i demand absolute perfection from you as the tank plain and simple doesnt matter if its an off tank class you learned tanking so do it right
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03-29-2016, 06:32 PMAriaEnia
Pre rage of halone and butcher's block, even dpses and healers can tank a few trashes, they don't hit that hard, so don't feel bad about it, even though keeping hate is easy on low level if you just follow your party's dpses' attack patterns, whether they want to single target or spread out. Just make sure that you tank the boss.
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03-29-2016, 06:58 PMccrocker58
Okay, after reading some of your posts op, it seems you don't have a full understanding of the class/role, at least in terms of this game. AoE threat abilities are decidedly not meant to be spammed. Doing so will quickly drain your resources, no matter your level. At that point, yes, holding aggro will likely be an issue.
"Tab" targeting is possible on control, as it has been mentioned, all you need to do is hold L1 and press D-pad up or down and it will cycle through any and all enemies on your enemy list (which should be all as you're opener will likely include an AoE) on the left of your hud, exactly the same as pressing up or down without holding L1 to cycle through the party list. You haven't mentioned how you switch targets, but I will say that clicking the enemy itself is harder and far more prone to error than clicking the enemy name in the list.
Tab targeting is not a sign of a bad tank or one that doesn't know what it's doing, as you stated in one of your replies. It is in fact the exact opposite. Resource management is very important, as I said earlier, and hitting a different enemy with each step of your enmity generation combo is a necessity for maintaining said resources. If you're having issues with DPS being all over the place, utilize marks. Mark the enemy you want the party to focus on and hit it with your ranged enmity first so it has some extra hate, then run through the group and use your AoE twice before doing your tab targeting cycle with your enmity combo. You can even set up a macro that will automatically mark whatever target you use your ranged attack on; this proved to be quite helpful when I started out. This is not a "farce" or even a recommendation really; this is literally how tanking works, and if you would like, thanks to playing on PS4, I can very easily post a run on my GLD or DRK in a low-level dungeon showing how it works. With all this in mind, holding hate will not be a problem, even against AoE heavy DPS. -
03-29-2016, 08:17 PMtherpgfanaticYou don't know what you are talking about. That you think low level tanks get 20.5 HP per vit stat is indicative you don't know the math behind classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asdrubael
How much HP you get per point of VIT scales with character level. Low level tanks get a lot less than a lv60 character does! With the exception of WARs in Defiance, HP isn't what makes a tank able to handle incoming damage better than healers and damage dealers. It is the tanks mitigation skills that significantly reduce or utterly ignore incoming damage. That's where the defensive nature is actually in. It's not in HP, unless you are a WAR who has less mitigation skills than a PLD / WAR does, so the extra pool of HP in Defiance compensates for that.
Second of all, as I already mentioned in the prior post, tanking gear has equal STR and VIT on it. There's no way for a low level tank to focus on VIT over STR. You get the exact same amounts of both on tanking gear.
Next time you want to make this accusation, you might actually read the math on how the game mechanics work.Quote:
you don't have a full understanding of the class/role, at least in terms of this game.
Suggesting tanks shouldn't unleash their AoE threat builders at the start of a pull is indicative you and the Asdrubael both don't truly understand how tank abilities work.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrocker58
Aoe threat builders are meant to be spammed. Obviously, not spammed to the absolute depletion of all TP / MP (although that isn't a big freakin deal for PLD considering Riot blade combo recovers MP), but they are meant to be spammed in the sense you cast them two or three times at the start, and continue using them after every other threat / dps combo. That's why AoE threat builders are instant cast and have no delay.
If they were not intended to be spammable, they would not be spammable! End of story. They have no reason to be spammable unless they were intended to be used that way.
Of course, WARs can and should equip Flash, effectively giving them twice as much AoE threat output as a PLD, which means there is absolutely no excuse for a WAR to not spam AoE at the start of combat.
As I already mentioned, it tabs through without any consideration whatsoever to the distance the object is at. It doesn't go precisely left or right of your character, which causes delays in targeting the enemy you want.Quote:
"Tab" targeting is possible on control, as it has been mentioned, all you need to do is hold L1 and press D-pad up or down and it will cycle through any and all enemies on your enemy list (which should be all as you're opener will likely include an AoE) on the left of your hud, exactly the same as pressing up or down without holding L1 to cycle through the party list. You haven't mentioned how you switch targets, but I will say that clicking the enemy itself is harder and far more prone to error than clicking the enemy name in the list.
This is well known aspect of tab targeting.
Also I don't need "advice" on marking enemies, nor would that even help a newbie tank with having threat pulled off them from AoE damage / heal threat for failing to keep building threat on the entire pack.
I personally don't have a problem holding threat on my lv60 PLD when I am level synced down and I have explained in detail in prior posts why a level sync character has better stats than an actual leveling character normally would in the leveling dungeon.
It's the newbie tanks I run with on my level synced DPS who do, and noticing this is a problem many other people experience is the reason behind this thread.
Also you might want to re-read the post I made where I discussed how the DPS nerf impacts low level tanks, since you seem to want to pretend like a substantial DPS nerf couldn't possibly impact low level tanks already poor threat output pre-tanking stance. -
03-29-2016, 08:55 PMgarret_hawkeNot exaclty true tank gear will always give at least 1 more Vit than Str they are not equalsQuote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
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03-29-2016, 08:56 PMKorenA
I dunno how to explain how idiotic you sound by writing wall of text for a irrelevant reason, the change is here and it's not going anywhere so stfu, and vit and str are both a .45 mod fyi, vit affects ap more cause gear has more vit on it, which will improve damage or threat. Ex more ap, more threat from flash and fof.
You speaking for low level tanks in dungeons while you are on a different class is also irrelevant, you're not sitting over the person watching every move, they just may be doing something wrong. And FYI this wasn't a boost to warriors, defiance holds ZERO ap bonus it's only threat and hp, the hp mod is affected by damage received by bosses, it was a direct nerf to all tanks dps. You would know that IF you played it, but you don't, you ONLY have a paladin so how dare you argue with people about a complete class set when you only have 1 out of 3? GTFO our forums pleb until you leveled them all, then maybe you have credit to argue -
03-29-2016, 09:22 PMtherpgfanaticIt is true that STR and VIT are identical points on low level tanking gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by garret_hawke
I'll even prove it. Here's a look at some of the helms from levels 15 to 30.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/b72ed2c9d5f/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/8e9422febb7/
I assure you, the rest of the tanking gear is the exact same ratio. It's not until lv40 that armor starts getting an extra point of VIT, and not until after 50 that there is a few extra VIT points on tanking gear. None of which applies to the purpose of this thread, which is about low level tanking.
My assertion that it is simply impossible for a low level tank to focus on STR over VIT (or the opposite) stands, since tanking gear for their levels has them both in equal amounts.
I already demonstrated step by step why you are wrong. Why are you making it worse for yourself by continuing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by KorenA
Also, a wall of text is what you just wrote. I didn't even read half of it, because the total lack of grammar and spelling made it come across as gibberish. -
03-29-2016, 10:58 PMJpec07
Tanking in FFXIV is not like tanking in WoW or other MMOs I've played. They don't hand you aggro/enmity just for existing, like candy to a spoiled kid on Halloween. You have to work for it, and you've always had to work for it.
This was discussed in another thread a few weeks ago, and my comments there stand:
EDIT:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Except not really. Tanks 1-30 (1-40 for PLD) have always needed to adjust their play style to include more Flashes/Overpowers/Unleashes if they're losing enmity. The first few dungeons are meant to be a learning/teaching experience, just as they always have been. And as a new tank in 2.55, they taught me to pay attention to my party comp and adjust accordingly. BLM, THM, ACN, SMN, and SCH always mean that I need to work harder, tabbing between targets, spreading my enmity combo around, making sure I have a lead on everyone, and using Flash more frequently. This has always been the case on trash mobs, and is just as true in Lost City of Amdapor HM and Antitower as it was in my first Sastasha run. If a tank still learns the lessons of enmity management against packs of mobs as relates to group comp, then the system is working as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikkusu
Just because new tanks (may) need to be (slightly) more conscious of their enmity now does not mean the system is broken. It's still substantially easier to hold enmity now than it was in 2.x.
I lol'd, but while both seem to make impassioned arguments about inane subject matter, therpgfanatic seems to have a better grasp on grammar and style than Nektulos-Tuor, enough to where I have a harder time believing they're the same person than I do that there could be two people out there so impassioned about non-issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
But then, I am the resident crazy parry fanatic, so I suppose anything is possible.
EDIT 2: Also, to therpgfanatic's credit, they're engaging with the participants in their thread far more consistently than Nektulos-Tuor, and offering legitimate counterpoints to even the strongest arguments against their position. So far as I can tell, any inflammation/saltiness on their part is in response to invective against their capacity as a tank (which, even if the argument is inane, is uncalled for). -
03-29-2016, 11:23 PMClaymore65I think you're misunderstanding a critical aspect of the "Tab Targeting" discussion here. People are not suggesting ONLY use tab targeting, and never use flash/overpower/unleash/etc. That would be an awful idea, and all of those abilities are extremely important.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
However, you seem to have this odd idea that you should only be spamming flash, or at the very least your writing heavily implies that. The more common strategy is to start with a Shield Lob, flash somewhere between 1-3 times, then move into Tab targeting to maintain aggro. As a Paladin, this can be critical since you have so little AOE damage, and runs go much faster. Tab targeting lets you spread both damage and the higher enmity moves (such as Rage of Halone and Savage Blade) on a multiple targets. This will get you more enmity in the long run, and spread out damage. Obviously, this is all situational. If your DPS is all focusing on one enemy, you should be focusing on that enemy. If you have 7-8 mobs and everyone is (rightfully) going AOE crazy, spam flash/unleash/etc. Part of tanking is knowing what the best tool for the situation is. Sometimes, that will be AOE enmity moves, other times that will be tab targeting, and still other times you can just focus on a single enemy.
As for the main topic, I haven't experienced much change, at least when I was leveling Marauder and Dark Knight. Keeping aggro is about the same. If I'm significantly outgeared/outleveled, yeah, it can be difficult, but that's been true pretty much forever. -
03-30-2016, 02:01 AMHoodRatThe average new player will focus on whatever they get their hands on. I've seen tanks with dex, dragoons with vit, I even once saw a bard in the Vault with piety and intelligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asdrubael
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03-30-2016, 02:05 AMSpookyGhostIt would be really difficult to balance around people randomly picking whatever stat they'd like. They could make all stats have some value on all jobs, which would be cool, but I don't see them doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
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03-30-2016, 03:02 AMKabzyI like this part. Is this really about our low level tanks or something else? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
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03-30-2016, 08:18 PMccrocker58I...said exactly this literally a paragraph down from the text you quoted. Selective reading I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
You can press left or right on the d-pad without holding L1 on control to select the nearest enemy to your left or right. Consecutive presses will cycle from nearest to farthest. Do you even play on a control? This is pretty basic stuff...so I'm going to assume you don't, and if that is the case you should not be attempting to argue about it. If you do play on control and didn't know this stuff...lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
As for the changes to STR and VIT, no. Just...no. There's literally nothing else I can say about this that hasn't already been said in this thread. Anyway, I'm done with this. Think whatever you want, tell people whatever you want. No matter how much logic and common sense are thrown at you, as far as you're concerned, you'll always be right. -
03-30-2016, 09:04 PMJaniseNot sure I really understand the problem here
I have an ilvl 207 DRK to 60.
I have started to level both GLD and MAR sincethe patch change just so I can have all tanks levelled
I have MAR/WAR on 35 atm and and a GLD on about 28 - have to say that at times it was hard to hold hate particularly in Roulette where I would be trying to hold agaisnt very well geared players synced down. But it was never an issue on other than a couple of occasions usually when Overpower didn' pick up all the mobs in a group. Since Defiance dropped I've had no problems whatsoever.
I would also add that NOT ONCE has anyone bitched or moaned that hate was lost on occasions. In fact most people are quite understanding and recognise that the disparity even in synced gear can create issues sometimes.
I should add that I'm pretty well geared so maybe its easier - but hell - I did my research and knew what I needed to be wearing to stand a decent chance of doing the job. Most people having major hate issues wil be simply undergeared or poor at understanding their mechanics IMHO
The other factor here is that actually having to work at holding aggro has made me appreciate far more the mechanics of each job. With DRK starting at 30 I didnt go through that curve so took a while to get the job down pat in the higher levels dugs. Working on getting hate back when I lose it has made me far more aware of 1) How not to lose it in the first place and 2) the best ways to get it back and hold it
Brutally honest? Seems to me that this is more a bitch thread about DPS being nerfed at higher levels than any great concern about lower levels having a hard time of it. I am levelling right now on both GLD and MAR/WAR and I have no complaints. -
03-31-2016, 06:41 AMErim-Nelhah
I decided to reroll to a new server, and have been playing GLA/PLD on my new toon. I had a handful of problems with holding hate on large pulls in Sastasha, Tam-Tara, and Copperhell, but once I was able to get ahead of the story level-wise and start overgearing the dungeons, I've had no real trouble.
--Erim Nelhah -
03-31-2016, 07:40 AMtherpgfanaticI'm not selective reading. I've been responding to your statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrocker58
I'm not selective reading. I've been responding to your statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrocker58
I play on a PS3. So yes, I use a controller. I'm very familiar with how it works. It doesn't focus on just enemies, either. It focuses on any clickable object within your characters field of view, which can actually be at the other end of a room or behind a wall depending on where your character is sitting and how the pathways in the dungeon are setup.Quote:
You can press left or right on the d-pad without holding L1 on control to select the nearest enemy to your left or right. Consecutive presses will cycle from nearest to farthest. Do you even play on a control? This is pretty basic stuff...so I'm going to assume you don't, and if that is the case you should not be attempting to argue about it. If you do play on control and didn't know this stuff...lol.
I believe tanking trash should be the same tactic, regardless of the makeup of the party. All damage dealing classes have access to something that can contribute to AoE damage, whether it's a DoT or a true AoE attack. If the player is good and understands their class, they will use those skills to take down the group rather than focus on an enemy 1 by 1. For example, it is always better for a Lancer to tag a group of trash with Phlebotomize before focusing on the tank's target with a DPS combo, as it can wittle about 15% of an enemy's HP off, which adds to the AoE damage an Archer, THAU or ARCA is doing (as well as the AoE that a DRK or MARD is doing). Runs go significantly faster if DPS adopt tactics better suited for taking down a group of trash and the tank should make it as easy as possible for DPS to use these tactics by using their AoE threat builder, even if it's just Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore65
(The only exception to this may be enemies that can wipe the tank, like grenades that explode, or bees with final sting, which should be prioritized above all else)
Yet, I also know that most damage dealing players suck. I've literally shown another DRG why they should pop Blood for Blood and spam Doom Spike on trash in Aurum Vale rather than do their single-target combo, and they still choose to do the much slower way of clearing trash. It seems a lot of players doesn't understand TP recovers very fast outside of battle and the encounters are usually designed to give enough time to fully recover TP between packs of trash, so depleting TP, popping Invigorate and then AoEing to 20% of your TP pool and then finishing off the leftovers with single target DPS combos is the way to go.
Regardless, if a tank builds the threat on an entire pack quickly and maintains it, DPS players who are good can clear the trash quickly and the run can go very fast and painless.
Anyway, to get back to my original point in the OP I made; I have seen low level tanks do everything correctly and still lose threat. That's an issue, and I think the biggest problem is the DPS nerfs all tanks took, and that has to do with the recent damage change that split AP between VIT and STR, which has created a loss of DPS for all tanks, even low level ones, for all the reasons outlined in the post I made before. -
03-31-2016, 07:49 AMDeathgiverYou should fix your target settings then, literally the only way I target an object instead of an enemy is if I use X to target instead of the d-pad. Even this can be worked around pretty easily if you move your camera so the thing you don't want to target is not in view.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
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03-31-2016, 10:39 AMKabooaHappened before 3.2 buddy. The issue wasn't losing 3dps in Satasha, the issue is that low level tanking in general is very difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
Fact of the matter is that you don't get training wheels for tanking in this game, for whatever reason, and holding everything is not only difficult, it's a crapshoot. At the same time, every dungeon before Stone Vigil (the point where Paladins finally get their tank stance), losing a trash mob doesn't kill your DPS. If anything, a DPS can tank a mob or two without stressing the healer much at all.
Yes, it's annoying.
No, it's hardly an issue. -
03-31-2016, 12:32 PMDarthVella
Look, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. It's next to impossible for a lowbie to hold hate against a DPS who's doing their job right, and that's disheartening for the tank and irritating for their party.
But it's not a new issue, and I think it hasn't been addressed because it's good training for the tank. It's an indication that maybe they're going about things the wrong way, and incentive for the party to offer tips. It's a good way to learn how much enmity is enough to keep ahead in later dungeons, and an easy tutor on not panicking when you do lose hate. It can use some fine-tuning, but it works well enough that it doesn't quite need it.
For that matter, expecting low-level tanks to spam AoEs for the sake of a fast clear is a terrible idea, because it teaches bad habits. I was told to use the Flash -> Riot combo during my first Satasha tank run; and while that got me through that dungeon, it was patently not enough to hold hate ten levels down the line and I was lambasted for not knowing about Halone. -
03-31-2016, 01:47 PMZari
Considering this has ALWAYS been a thing, NOT only after 3.2
This feels more like you trying to make excuses for why you think the dps nerf should be reversed just so you can be a dumb dps "tank" again -
04-02-2016, 06:59 PMtherpgfanaticHypothetically, if you are correct and it's always been a problem with low level tanks holding threat, you are then admitting there is a problem with low level tanks ability to hold threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zari
But here's the reality:
Before Patch:
4 STR = 4 AP
After Patch:
4 STR = 1.76 AP
2 STR + 2 VIT = 1.76 AP
4 VIT = 1.76 AP
Damage is a core part of threat generation, and low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output with the nerf. Even with a slight buff to enmity modifiers on 1 or 2 skills, that truth doesn't change.
What part of this is hard to understand?