TL;DR of live letter

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Originally Posted by NargaHuntress

Man i just upgraded from ps3 to ps4 to get away from this kind of "hate"? What kind of add-ons would you absolutely need to play this game? I'm serious, what kind? What would it do? That doesn't involve a ui overhaul. Maybe im just some lowlife console user to understand what significance or type of add-ons what benefit this game, but i would like to see reason behind the need.

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Something akin to Deadly Boss Mods which would have timers for every phase of the boss. So you would hear a "3, 2, 1" on Ravana EX before Invulnerable phase and you know, as a Monk, to use Tornado Kick cuz you'll lose your stacks anyway. Therefore you get a heads up to each mechanic, phase change, etc... and thus are able to react accordingly. Granted it may not be necessary if you know every fight and have done it 1,000 times, but for new people who are learning, even T5 it will be "Divebombs in 10 seconds... counting down" you know get your butt into the ditch to dodge.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Something akin to Deadly Boss Mods which would have timers for every phase of the boss. So you would hear a "3, 2, 1" on Ravana EX before Invulnerable phase and you know, as a Monk, to use Tornado Kick cuz you'll lose your stacks anyway. Therefore you get a heads up to each mechanic, phase change, etc... and thus are able to react accordingly. Granted it may not be necessary if you know every fight and have done it 1,000 times, but for new people who are learning, even T5 it will be "Divebombs in 10 seconds... counting down" you know get your butt into the ditch to dodge.

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I am now suddenly amused at the thought of having DBM in FF14 and when a high damage event is about to occur to hear "RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL".

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Originally Posted by Noshpan

I am now suddenly amused at the thought of having DBM in FF14 and when a high damage event is about to occur to hear "RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL".

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It would help tanks do their tank busters too

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Something akin to Deadly Boss Mods which would have timers for every phase of the boss. So you would hear a "3, 2, 1" on Ravana EX before Invulnerable phase and you know, as a Monk, to use Tornado Kick cuz you'll lose your stacks anyway. Therefore you get a heads up to each mechanic, phase change, etc... and thus are able to react accordingly. Granted it may not be necessary if you know every fight and have done it 1,000 times, but for new people who are learning, even T5 it will be "Divebombs in 10 seconds... counting down" you know get your butt into the ditch to dodge.

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Am I the only person that thinks shit like this is basically getting your computer to play the game for you? ._.

I mean seriously, how much hand-holding do we need? ._.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Am I the only person that thinks shit like this is basically getting your computer to play the game for you? ._.

I mean seriously, how much hand-holding do we need? ._.

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That's like saying "Isn't a calculator basically doing the math for you?" Uh no. You still need to punch in the numbers.

Just because it's telling you what's coming up doesn't mean you actually have to care or do anything. "I know the tank buster is coming in 10 seconds but let me just not pop any big defensive cooldowns" "I know the vulnerable phase is coming up but let me just not pop foe's requiem"

"Isn't having giant orange circles for AOE on the ground basically playing the game for you?" not if you don't move out of the circles...

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Originally Posted by Krissey

That's like saying "Isn't a calculator basically doing the math for you?" Uh no. You still need to punch in the numbers.

Just because it's telling you what's coming up doesn't mean you actually have to care or do anything. "I know the tank buster is coming in 10 seconds but let me just not pop any big defensive cooldowns" "I know the vulnerable phase is coming up but let me just not pop foe's requiem"

"Isn't having giant orange circles for AOE on the ground basically playing the game for you?" not if you don't move out of the circles...

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That's just it though. The game itself already has cast bars (or the boss has special animations) for skills. We already have floor aoe indicators, with the exception of a few attacks that don't show them. A countdown to mechanics is just lolsome to me.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That's just it though. The game itself already has cast bars (or the boss has special animations) for skills. We already have floor aoe indicators, with the exception of a few attacks that don't show them. A countdown to mechanics is just lolsome to me.

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Then don't download the addon. Your game is still "hard". The people who want more precise control over a fight and precision can download the addon. Ez.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Then don't download the addon. Your game is still "hard". The people who want more precise control over a fight and precision can download the addon. Ez.

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You say this like we're actually getting addon support anytime soon. With how Sony handles things, I don't think we'll ever see it. It's just not feasible to implement it for only part of the playerbase so if console players don't get it, nobody will.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Then don't download the addon. Your game is still "hard". The people who want more precise control over a fight and precision can download the addon. Ez.

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I bet you're that kind of person that thinks they can remove the echo without the party questioning you doing so. do you really want "no ps4" to be popping up in the pf?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I bet you're that kind of person that thinks they can remove the echo without the party questioning you doing so. do you really want "no ps4" to be popping up in the pf?

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Did you misquote me? I'm not the one asking to "keep the game hard because addons play for you".

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Did you misquote me? I'm not the one asking to "keep the game hard because addons play for you".

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The add on you suggested just sounds ridiculous and not the sort of thing I would be behind. that you think it would be treated as an option if implemented is laughable. It would be shoved down the throat of every pf in current content, and as hard to deal playing without it as a needle in a haystack.

Ashkendor is right, playing the game like that wouldn't be very rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Something akin to Deadly Boss Mods which would have timers for every phase of the boss. So you would hear a "3, 2, 1" on Ravana EX before Invulnerable phase and you know, as a Monk, to use Tornado Kick cuz you'll lose your stacks anyway. Therefore you get a heads up to each mechanic, phase change, etc... and thus are able to react accordingly. Granted it may not be necessary if you know every fight and have done it 1,000 times, but for new people who are learning, even T5 it will be "Divebombs in 10 seconds... counting down" you know get your butt into the ditch to dodge.

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Like bosses don't give ample warning before these phases anyway. We don't need anymore hand holding.

Have any of you participated in a raid where someone else called out a mechanic for you? You make it sound like this isn't the case, but it's extremely common.

I've been in raids where mechanics were called out for others. When mechanics I was in charge of were called out, I got more annoyed because I was already in place to take care of it.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Am I the only person that thinks shit like this is basically getting your computer to play the game for you? ._.

I mean seriously, how much hand-holding do we need? ._.

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Some people like that extra hand-holding as you call it. Some don't. So only certain players will use that particular plugin. That's the thing with addons, the whole idea is designed around customizing the experience to suit your tastes. For some people, that's getting extra warnings about combat mechanics. For others it means changing your access to inventory listings, or hotbar arrangements, or all sorts of other things.

My favorite plugin in LOTRO is one that lets me view the inventory of all my other alt characters as well as my storage vault at any time. Is it necessary to play the game? No. But it makes it easier. Another one I like gives me expandable hotbars, so I can have hotbar access to a lot more things than are displayed at a time. Again, it's not necessary, since I could access any of the items, mounts, or skills I put there by digging through menus and windows to get to them, but having expandable hotbars for them makes it easier. There are tons of these convenience feature type of plugins that players can choose from, as well as numerous combat oriented ones.

And the game developer still controls what can and cannot be done. In order for players to make a plugin like Krissey's example, that will notify you when a given attack is about to go off, first SE would have to give the plugin system access to knowing enemy attacks. In order to make a plugin for tracking what inventory your retainers have, first SE would have to give the plugin system access to seeing your retainer's inventory. And so on. Each piece of information the plugins can work with has to be explicitly enabled by the game developer for that access. So if SE's concern is simply that they don't want DPS meters, for example, then they could have a plugin system that's not given access to damage numbers, or one that gets access to your own damage numbers but nobody else's. (They'd probably get complaints about that, since DPS meters are one of the things a lot of players want to add, but it's still the developer's decision.)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Have any of you participated in a raid where someone else called out a mechanic for you? You make it sound like this isn't the case, but it's extremely common.

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there a difference between what people do in voice chat and a automated program attached to the ui handholding you through every move.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

there a difference between what people do in voice chat and a automated program attached to the ui handholding you through every move.

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There is a difference, but that difference is not important in this context. In one situation a person is hand-holding and telling you what to do and another a computer program is. The difference is who is doing the work, but to you there is no difference. Either way you have the mechanic warned for you, so that you don't have to worry about it yourself. In both situations, you have equal amount of hand-holding.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

There is a difference, but that difference is not important in this context. In one situation a person is hand-holding and telling you what to do and another a computer program is. The difference is who is doing the work, but to you there is no difference. Either way you have the mechanic warned for you, so that you don't have to worry about it yourself. In both situations, you have equal amount of hand-holding.

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I very much have to worry about it, I don't want that sort of thing in every encounter, and I don't want it forced on me to have it. I do not need to have the person doing so, and i can choose to not have it, I refuse an add on, and I'm likely to be removed from even learning parties.

I don't want add ons getting thrown in my face over every bit of playing.

It's Both ps3 and PS4. Because any very useful addons would need to be ported to Playstation somehow!! to keep everything fair.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I very much have to worry about it, I don't want that sort of thing in every encounter, and I don't want it forced on me to have it. I do not need to have the person doing so, and i can choose to not have it, I refuse an add on, and I'm likely to be removed from even learning parties.

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I am not sure I am following what you are saying with this post. However, I'll try to respond - I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you.

if you do not need to worry about mechanics being called by another person, you do not need to worry about it from an addon either. You can disable to addon or ignore the person. If you need the person to call out, you can just have the addon do it for you.

I take it that you're worried people will require it and kick you if you don't have it. I'm not sure how they could know or prove if you have it or not. If you don't have it, join the learning party, know your mechanics and boom you're fine.

If you're concerned that you'll be failing mechanics, because you're missing out on callouts from the addon, in these scenarios are you likely to receive callouts from a player?

Here's an example from another with a similar addon I was explaining:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZBwKr2HCz8

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I take it that you're worried people will require it and kick you if you don't have it. I'm not sure how they could know or prove if you have it or not.

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I think the person you're addressing wants to experience learning parties where everyone is figuring it out together.

They are worried that like day2, someone might put up plugins for that fight the. That person can't experience it this way and everyone will require you to use the add-on.

People calling out every mechanic during the fight In party chat is a very rare circumstance. So as is this person doesn't experience that often is content.

With add on the fear is every fight will be this way, or you're not allowed to play. And you suggesting just join cuz they won't know. You just asked this person to intentionally be dishonest cuz they "won't know".

Honestly a lot of it did seem like them saying that they have no idea when to drop PS3 support and because of that they don't know when content is coming or not.

I don't want it. I haven't wanted it since I started playing the game, and I don't want it still. It was bad enough to deal with looking for different debuffs of players. having add on stuff all over, cluttering the screen and dictating what I should do next? nono.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

I think the person you're addressing wants to experience learning parties where everyone is figuring it out together.

They are worried that like day2, someone might put up plugins for that fight the. That person can't experience it this way and everyone will require you to use the add-on.

People calling out every mechanic during the fight In party chat is a very rare circumstance. So as is this person doesn't experience that often is content.

With add on the fear is every fight will be this way, or you're not allowed to play. And you suggesting just join cuz they won't know. You just asked this person to intentionally be dishonest cuz they "won't know".

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That's a fair desire, but why not just make a PF that says "Blind run, no add-ons/video". I too like doing blind runs and figuring things out myself :) Though I don't feel that is reason enough to prevent add-ons from being added.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I bet you're that kind of person that thinks they can remove the echo without the party questioning you doing so. do you really want "no ps4" to be popping up in the pf?

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ACT triggers are already a thing, do you see "PC players only, must have codeword for triggers"? Do you see "Must have Discord/Mumble/TeamSpeak for callouts" very often? I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

... having add on stuff all over, cluttering the screen ...

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Many addons de-clutter the screen by removing all the stuff that's not currently relevant, and bringing it back up only when you need it, or only showing the parts you select. One of the main benefits is that the UI becomes configurable at a far more detailed level than the basic game options provide.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That's a fair desire, but why not just make a PF that says "Blind run, no add-ons/video". I too like doing blind runs and figuring things out myself :) Though I don't feel that is reason enough to prevent add-ons from being added.

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Because it would go over about as well as running a minimum ilvl ANYTHING.

In fact ill do it tonight and let you know how it went.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Many addons de-clutter the screen by removing all the stuff that's not currently relevant, and bringing it back up only when you need it, or only showing the parts you select. One of the main benefits is that the UI becomes configurable at a far more detailed level than the basic game options provide.

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I want to believe this, really I do, but when I see some of the add ons generally used on WoW(because this is clearly where this is going), I think its going to be...too far

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Because it would go over about as well as running a minimum ilvl ANYTHING.

In fact ill do it tonight and let you know how it went.

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You'll do what tonight? Add-ons are not in the game.

However, if you wanted to actually study, you could randomly choose a large number of sample times to put up a PF and do half of them posting "learning party Seph EX, must have watched a video" and "Learning party seph ex, blind run no video". After you have a sample of ~100 of that, you could give a decent outcome of the differences.

All of that said, if the majority of players would want you to have the addon to join their party, then the majority of players would want the add-on and it's something that the dev team should support for that reason alone.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

You'll do what tonight? Add-ons are not in the game.

However, if you wanted to actually study, you could randomly choose a large number of sample times to put up a PF and do half of them posting "learning party Seph EX, must have watched a video" and "Learning party seph ex, blind run no video". After you have a sample of ~100 of that, you could give a decent outcome of the differences.

All of that said, if the majority of players would want you to have the addon to join their party, then the majority of players would want the add-on and it's something that the dev team should support for that reason alone.

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I was going to apologize, but tbh, I just don't care anymore. Nothing matters, does it!? Its just another thing I'll have to get used to to enjoy a theme park.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I was going to apologize, but tbh, I just don't care anymore. Nothing matters, does it!? Its just another thing I'll have to get used to to enjoy a theme park.

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Apologize for what?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Apologize for what?

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I don't want a mess of addons, and as complicated as the game can be at times, add ons taking me through every part of the fight would feel even worse.

I used to be excited for live letters but it's been a while since they've felt anything but a big joke on their playerbase. Every question gets the same vague answer about limitations or lack of time/resources.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Am I the only person that thinks shit like this is basically getting your computer to play the game for you?

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Yes. It'd be one thing if the computer moved you away or did something to get you away from harm (see: tool assisted runs for console games). All DBM and Big Wigs does is warn you in a noticeable way. It's up to you to still react and do whats needed to not die.

Going to the Twintania example, yes, it'd be really useful to have an addon like that warn you on divebombs, with the ability to set it to send a raid warning when someone is in conflag, who is tethered to dreadknights and so on. Sometimes you don't have the time to scan the whole battlefield, and if you're like me you're not coming near the mic to say anything on chat because you're too busy trying to not die.

Not mentioning some of the memory game fights (turn 9 comes to mind) would be more manageable. In before "it took me a million wipes to learn T9 so it has to take EVERYONE a million wipes!!!!!1!one".

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I don't want a mess of addons, and as complicated as the game can be at times, add ons taking me through every part of the fight would feel even worse.

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I still am confused about what you were going to apologize for 0.0

However, that's a fine opinion for sure. I really miss addons personally. I loved that Wildstar, for example, fully embraced addons. It's too bad it failed in many other aspects.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I used to be excited for live letters but it's been a while since they've felt anything but a big joke on their playerbase. Every question gets the same vague answer about limitations or lack of time/resources.

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I agree. I feel that they should just not do the live letters if this is the sort of thing we get. This letter seems to be getting a lot of praise for giving so much info - yet I feel we got very little to nothing. One of the drawing features of this game was that the dev team listens to its players, but I feel that it was simply an illusion that we all fell for.

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Originally Posted by Seezur_Undies

Bethesda is creating add-ons/mods for Fallout 4 so it is either not the addon issue or PS4 is not the problem because addon/mods are possible for PS4. PS4 is getting a major hardware overhaul which may be why they can use the mods and addons for Fallout 4 as well as adding 4k monitor compatibility

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GTA5 as well?

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I used to be excited for live letters but it's been a while since they've felt anything but a big joke on their playerbase. Every question gets the same vague answer about limitations or lack of time/resources.

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Agreed. They we're so nice in the 1.x era. Now it is just excuses and glamour answers...or almost nothing at all. I don't even bother watching them anymore :/

Yeah I found the live letter quite underwhelming. On the one hand I kinda admire the honesty of just saying "I don't know" if you don't have an answer. But it seemed like there weren't answers for 2 out of 3 questions. Everything may or may not happen at some point in the future and we're just being impatient was the general gist of it.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Going to the Twintania example, yes, it'd be really useful to have an addon like that warn you on divebombs, with the ability to set it to send a raid warning when someone is in conflag, who is tethered to dreadknights and so on. Sometimes you don't have the time to scan the whole battlefield, and if you're like me you're not coming near the mic to say anything on chat because you're too busy trying to not die.

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Because divebombs, conflags, and fireball totally don't make a sound and put a huge marker over your head. Dreadknights totally don't mark and stun the person they're aggroed to, either. Seriously, now. You really need the computer to spell it out for you?

If this is what people want, I sincerely hope we never get add-on support.

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Not mentioning some of the memory game fights (turn 9 comes to mind) would be more manageable. In before "it took me a million wipes to learn T9 so it has to take EVERYONE a million wipes!!!!!1!one".

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It didn't take you long to try your hand at villifying me for my opinion there, chief. I could care less how fast other people clear it or don't clear it. You're talking to someone that loves to join learning and clear parties and used to spend Saturday nights teaching content in Party Finder so other people clearing is actually something I like seeing. I just think that the amount of hand-holding being asked for here is pretty far out there. I mean, when you have an experienced player call out the raid, that's at least a player that's sharing their experience and helping others with the timing. That's someone that took the time to learn the fight helping others do the same, not the computer reading the files clientside and calling out every skill 10 seconds in advance.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Because divebombs, conflags, and fireball totally don't make a sound and put a huge marker over your head. Dreadknights totally don't mark and stun the person they're aggroed to, either. Seriously, now. You really need the computer to spell it out for you?

If this is what people want, I sincerely hope we never get add-on support.

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Actually don't care if you helped people out or not, its peoples own problems imo if they can't get a group running because theres always a underlying reason for it, just to add, I am not a big fan of boss timers however, whats the difference between, a divebomb marker and divebomb timer? In the interest of fairness, there shouldn't even be a marker at all and every one should look at twintania in this example. The player is still getting a handholding in this respect.