Please Add no bonus option for PF

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Originally Posted by LunaSnowfield

Balmung is full of elitists(baddies) ***holes that deserve to die already.

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IDK about you but saying someone deserves to die over anything they do in a video game is far worse than any elitist.

May want to take a step back at that point and think about what you just said.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

people being self entitled that they demand everyone be so good they never make a mistake

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I would say that someone joining a farm group knowing that they are not capable of farming and expecting the seven others to devote their collective time to teach/carry him/her is far more self-entitled.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

I would say that someone joining a farm group knowing that they are not capable of farming and expecting the seven others to devote their collective time teach/carry him/her is far more self-entitled.

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Its more a case of people being hypocritical and always blaming me, who just happens to be the one with a bonus, i dont join the farm groups but people still seem to point the finger are the bonus person...when i dont do anything wrong follow what im told....when its either most times a dps...

Only problem I see with this:
If this starts becoming the norm, people will increasingly buy clears just so they can't be singled out for their "bonus" or lack of clear.
Sounds like the problem would be exasperated.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

This kinda attitude is what ruins Raids in FF, people being self entitled that they demand everyone be so good they never make a mistake, the raids have become so easier compared to Sephi ex that people just think once you clear you can never make a mistake.

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Ummm........ I never said that, please don't put words into my mouth. People can make mistakes, people can even wipe if the reason was justified. What is not ok is joining a farm party and having no idea how to do the fight.

Also. What you are saying is that it is self entitled to expect that people meet the requirements set by THEIR party finder, this isn't even about peoples attitudes to raiding, this is about the respect to the party leader who is trying to get people of a certain skill level and a like minded goal to clear content, they are the ones who matter, not the real self entitled person who doesn't care about the other 7 people and only wants their own clear no matter what.

As I said before, communication and respect is what is important.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Only problem I see with this:
If this starts becoming the norm, people will increasingly buy clears just so they can't be singled out for their "bonus" or lack of clear.
Sounds like the problem would be exasperated.

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I can see that too, and it is really easy to fix but won't be... because SE...

this > people buying clears > prices for clears going up > RMT becomes more popular > we get more RMT. Cut out RMT and it makes buying clears a lot harder, but we know that won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

IDK about you but saying someone deserves to die over anything they do in a video game is far worse than any elitist.

May want to take a step back at that point and think about what you just said.

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>World Leviathan

May want to take a step back at that point and think about what you just said.

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Originally Posted by LunaSnowfield

>World Leviathan

May want to take a step back at that point and think about what you just said.

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What has my world got to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

You clearly don't get it, at all. If I want to make a farm party, that means that in my PF, I want people who have cleared the fight at least once, preferably more than that.

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Great! You want to set arbitrary rules, then that's your deal. I just don't want the game mechanic itself to be working against the players. There's no rule that states a new player is automatically going to suck, but if you automatically assume so then that's your problem.

Just don't try to make it anyone else's problem.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

This kinda attitude is what ruins Raids in FF, people being self entitled that they demand everyone be so good they never make a mistake, the raids have become so easier compared to Sephi ex that people just think once you clear you can never make a mistake.

Also the more people who clear the better as it shows to SE that this content is just the right difficulty, the less players doing it will result in a nerf.

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Nah, it's not that. People are getting the mistaken impression that raiders in general think our shit doesn't stink and we never mess up. I'll be the first to say that I have Sephirot on farm and I still screw up from time to time. An honest mistake is an honest mistake. We all make them. That's completely different from someone having no idea what to do past the adds, though.

I'm willing to take people with a bonus message at their word that they've been to 5% or enrage or whatever. I'm willing to take them on a farm run but if after a few pulls it's clear they have no clue what they're doing, they get a boot to the ass and get put on my blacklist as well for lying. I'd still love to see this option in Party Finder because I have run into many people that join parties explicitly labeled as "farm run, know the fight" without having the first clue about anything in there and just hoping for a carry. Sorry, but no. If I'm farming, I'm not there to give myself a headache explaining everything to some dude that won't even pull up a 10 minute video on Youtube or a backache carrying dead weight through the fight. It would still be possible for those 5%'ers to join, simply by sending a tell to the party leader. Most of us are pretty reasonable and understand that it happens sometimes.

In short, if I want to teach I join a learning or clear party. I'm always willing to teach friends (and friends of friends, lol) and people in my FC. As for carrying, I'll carry friends and paying customers, not freeloading sneakthieves that try to sabotage my farming. I have a serious dislike for people that lie like that when I'm willing to help with learning if people only expend the effort to try.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Great! You want to set arbitrary rules, then that's your deal. I just don't want the game mechanic itself to be working against the players. There's no rule that states a new player is automatically going to suck, but if you automatically assume so then that's your problem.

Just don't try to make it anyone else's problem.

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The fact of the matter is that someone that's cleared the fight is way more likely to know the fight than someone that hasn't. The only real exceptions are 1) someone that paid for a clear/got carried by friends and 2) someone that's been to enrage but hasn't quite cleared yet. Aside from those two exceptions (which seem to be a pretty small minority in my experience) the vast majority of people that have cleared are going to know the fight better than people that haven't cleared. I don't see why this is suddenly an "arbitrary rule" to want people on your skill level to farm with and why you seem to think it's such an awful thing to want to be able to make a Party Finder option that would filter out those players that are just looking for a carry.

I just do not see why splitting the raiding community up from the others even more into the first ones who have plenty of time to clear and those who don't have as much time but love to raid...doesnt make sense since the raiding community is one of the smaller groups i mean how many are actually doing Sephi Ex? I only every seen at most 2-3 parties.

The majority of raiders use a pre made group of 8 people so whats the point in adding the no bonus filter? The whole idea is to find 8 ppl that work together, there is no way a sephi ex run clears perfectly without voice coms.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

The majority of raiders use a pre made group of 8 people so whats the point in adding the no bonus filter? The whole idea is to find 8 ppl that work together, there is no way a sephi ex run clears perfectly without voice coms.

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While I disagree with your post as a whole, I'll answer this bit in particular. People have lives and not everyone can make all raid days (emergencies, real life etc.), sometimes statics are incomplete. What happens in these cases is that they go into PF and PUG someone. A lot of the time people are respectful, but we have entire raid nights ruined because of PUGs lying, not pulling the DPS, not understanding the mechanics, and that just isn't justifiable when we requested someone who is on the same level as our group.

This isn't even taking into account people that don't have statics and rely on PF to farm for their gear. Here is a question: If I advertised a Thordan bird farming group, why shouldn't I fully expect everyone to be competent at this mechanic intensive fight? And why shouldn't I want measures to make sure that the entire session won't turn into someone joining for the clear and then leaving when they have it (best case scenario, worst case is they completely screw us and we have to disband)

I really don't get people vehemently against this.

You seem to be making arguments against PF Farm parties excluding people that haven't done it before. That's not really the topic at hand. The topic is about a tool which would, as many others stated before, prevent people from lying about if they did it already or not.

What's the gripe? Would you prefer farm parties form, go in, see the message, everyone gets pissed at whoever the potential 'leecher' is that lied their way in, and then disband?

This obviously wouldn't affect learning parties, which form and sometimes actually succeed anyway.

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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I make practice and clear groups all the time. Please try again. It's still not your right to join a farm party when you are not fit to farm. You talk about self-entitlement but think it's ok to hijack a group without consulting the PF leader beforehand without meeting the requirements set.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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So you are saying that lying is acceptable? Also, I have been in many learning groups, they are fine, maybe you are joining at the wrong time of day. Alternatively, make some friends, and even if you don't have all 8 people, PF groups are more attractive the fuller they are. PLEASE do not lie to a group, and please don't come here trying to justify it as acceptable, because it is not.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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Do you feel that gives people the right to join those that are farming the fight then?

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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And not implementing this would help that separate situation out... how? Most farm parties DON'T continue on after getting that message, so people aren't getting their clears from those.

So I get where the OP is coming from, but if the party wipes consistently because of one scrub they should be easy enough to identify. If there are multiple scrubs then it isn't really a farm party, is it?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

So I get where the OP is coming from, but if the party wipes consistently because of one scrub they should be easy enough to identify. If there are multiple scrubs then it isn't really a farm party, is it?

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Why should the party have to wipe first though? These types of PFs are in PF all the time, adding this would just make it easy for those that set up those parties.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

I just do not see why splitting the raiding community up from the others even more into the first ones who have plenty of time to clear and those who don't have as much time but love to raid...doesnt make sense since the raiding community is one of the smaller groups i mean how many are actually doing Sephi Ex? I only every seen at most 2-3 parties.

The majority of raiders use a pre made group of 8 people so whats the point in adding the no bonus filter? The whole idea is to find 8 ppl that work together, there is no way a sephi ex run clears perfectly without voice coms.

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Wut? Are you serious? I've been in farm parties where one wipe = disband and we didn't use voice comms.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

The majority of raiders use a pre made group of 8 people so whats the point in adding the no bonus filter? The whole idea is to find 8 ppl that work together, there is no way a sephi ex run clears perfectly without voice coms.

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You can't always get a full party, so people frequently pug for 1-2 spots in PF even when going premade. Yes there's always some adjustment of tactics (it often causes a couple of wipes before a clear while people get used to the strat we're using) but that's completely different than someone that just plain doesn't know what they're doing. This option isn't being made to exclude anyone, because those people are already excluded. The system just doesn't back it up and we're forced to take people at their word. If people didn't lie, it wouldn't be an issue. The party description quite clearly says that we want someone that knows the content. If someone joins the party with a bonus, we aren't taking them for a clear unless that person knows the fight, they've talked to the leader beforehand, and there's some kind of an agreement there. If someone joins the party knowing absolutely nothing about the fight and just looking for a carry, they're just proving that they can exploit the way the system works in order to sneak in. We're basically looking for more rigid system support in the Party Finder to prevent would-be freeloaders from wasting our time.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because no one joins training groups...they see practice and don't bother.

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I actually join them pretty frequently to help out or to learn a new role in the fight, as do plenty of other people I know.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Why should the party have to wipe first though? These types of PFs are in PF all the time, adding this would just make it easy for those that set up those parties.

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Exactly. It would be an enormous time-saver.

Eh i give up, only a few of us see this as a tool to split the entitled from those who wish to clear it...just because you haven't done it doesn't mean you do not know the fight..you do not know how many times someone has done it so how can you instantly judge them as being incompetent at the fight?

How does having a Bonus suddenly mean i do not know what to do or im an idiot? Last time i checked u need 8 ppl to clear, if the run is not so much as flawless u wont clear it.

Edit: Maybe its just Lich is full of entitled players who refuse to help people learn.

Why would you be joining a farming party if you don't have the fight on farm?

I mean, if you really want the clear, send a message to the one hosting the PF and say you have experience in the fight and ask if they're willing to give you a chance. That's really the respectful thing to do. If you get rejected, you get rejected. I've had a farm group take a new player and he performed okayish, so we kept him. It doesn't hurt to ask if you're confident in your skill.

For something like SephEx (which I am positive this thread was triggered by), I'd be a bit rough on those lying about their experience, too, because it requires everyone know the battle like the back of their hand. But on something we've overgeared, like, say IfritEx? Who cares.

Edit: And just to put it out there, I join Clear parties to help groups clear quite frequently. But you know what? Not joining clear parties doesn't make someone "entitled." Namecalling because someone doesn't want to help others wipe to something they themselves spent hours wiping to is just silly.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Eh i give up, only a few of us see this as a tool to split the entitled from those who wish to clear it...just because you haven't done it doesn't mean you do not know the fight..you do not know how many times someone has done it so how can you instantly judge them as being incompetent at the fight?

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No one is saying that just cause you havent finished the fight doesnt mean you don't know the fight.

Hell the majority of players who start these parties are fine if you send a tell informing them of your status on the fight. Some may not take you but most will.

Its not about not clearing it, its just a method of usually getting quicker clears because, lets be honest for ever 1 that hasn't cleared and could help farm there are 9 other who cant. So this would ensure less need to kick those that try to sneak their way in.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

No one is saying that just cause you havent finished the fight doesnt mean you don't know the fight.

Hell the majority of players who start these parties are fine if you send a tell informing them of your status on the fight. Some may not take you but most will.

Its not about not clearing it, its just a method of usually getting quicker clears because, lets be honest for ever 1 that hasn't cleared and could help farm there are 9 other who cant. So this would ensure less need to kick those that try to sneak their way in.

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You dont know some of the people on my server its kinda horrible when people start yelling at each other after 1 wipe...i dont get why people cant accept this is a very hard primal fight. Maybe it should show up who hasnt finished the fight rather then say there is a bonus.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

You dont know some of the people on my server its kinda horrible when people start yelling at each other after 1 wipe...i dont get why people cant accept this is a very hard primal fight. Maybe it should show up who hasnt finished the fight rather then say there is a bonus.

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Those people will sadly be rude with or without this addition, I'd be willing to say that every server sadly have those type of peoples.

I would honestly really like this option because there is no actual way to be able to know if someone joining your farm party is lying about the 'know the fight' part or not. It would help save the time of everyone else in the party and well---actually get the farm itself going. I have nothing against helping others with clears, especially when I have been helped as well but, a farm party just isn't the way to go to get your clear (or your clear and the mount ), you're not exactly being fair to the other 7 people in the party who are there for loot. As many others have suggested, sending a tell to the party leader if you know the fight and for example are on an alt or any of the other reasons given, goes a long way and its a lot better than joining, lying (which is what the option of the no bonus could help with) and then surprise everyone else with the bonus which will cause different reactions (most likely not all that pleasant) from the people who're there to actually farm :(

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Originally Posted by Melondra

That message was placed in the system in order for party's to know if they have new players in the content and for the other players to give them direction in order for everyone to be in the same page. The system was not designed for players to alienate other players because that new bonus message comes up.

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Bonus message hurts new players much more than helps unless it's a faceroll dungeon or story trial.
But, then again, before bonus message system people were asking to link achievements or gear from clears so removing it will solve nothing.
What needs to be done is more learning parties like on JP servers so everyone could find their progression or farm goals.

There shouldn't even be an argument about this.

1) If you don't want to use this feature, and you want to start a farming party and have no problem with carrying new ppl or new ppl in general great! Don't use it! Have a farming party with "bonus ok"

2) If you want to prevent ppl who havent cleared content form joinning a farming party. Great! Use it! No one will come into the party you have created and break your rules.

3) If you want to join a farming party but haven't even cleared the content., start your own! Or join guy #1 bc he doesn't care but don't lie and get into a "No bonus" party.

Adding this feature simply ensures that guy #2 doesn't have ppl in his party that do not meet his requirements. It's literally an extension of selecting Ilv. Nothing more.
New ppl who haven't cleared content should start their own parties.


Done. This shouldn't even be a conversation. There's no reason to not add this. The only thing that changes is ppl cant lie and join "no bonus" parties. And are then forced to start their own and meet other ppl who havent cleared it and they can work together and clear it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

There's no rule that states a new player is automatically going to suck, but if you automatically assume so then that's your problem.

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But you see, wee little Popoto, should someone who happens to have a bonus, but has been to enrage, /tells me and asks me if they can join, I will consider it. I have done in the past with Thordan EX, my static got to enrage consistently, next day I asked a farm group if I could come in and get my clear and stay and farm for a while. They said yes.

Communication is the problem, not the "assumption that people with bonus suck". You snake into my farm PF with a bonus without saying anything, damn right I'm gonna be pissed. Yes you might be good, but that's not the point. The point is that in my PF requirements I stated you should have cleared the fight before joining this group. If you're gonna ignore a simple request out of spite and jealousy, you're the one with the problem, not me.

So lets say you find a way a to exclude bonus players from the PF, this still doesnt guarantee that the other players know what they are doing or that they are able to clear the run. A bad player that was carried once can easily lie to you and be bad. What happens then? How will you filter those players?

Removing bonus players is possible, but it wont fix the issue, at it best you will remove total clueless players from the group (which can be verified by asking them questions about the fight), at it worst you are putting a wall before newcomers who have skill and want to learn and improve these newcomers often do their best to prepare by reading guides.

No, it won't guarantee anything, but it will improve the likelihood of a successful group. We aren't asking for a 100% perfect, bulletproof solution to making effective farm groups out of random people, but an option like this would prevent a lot of hassle and animosity since the bonus person would probably be kicked (and possibly blacklisted) anyway.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

A bad player that was carried once can easily lie to you and be bad. What happens then? How will you filter those players?

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Kick and/or blacklist - same way they get filtered now. But such players are a minority among those that have the clear. If it gets to the point that a substantial proportion of players that have cleared a fight don't know how to do it, then this game will be beyond hope.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

at it worst you are putting a wall before newcomers who have skill and want to learn and improve these newcomers often do their best to prepare by reading guides.

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The place to do that is not in a farm group. If someone is in that place where they've learned the fight and they're sure they can clear it but they just need to find those seven others that won't screw up, then they can ask the party leader to be allowed to join. But again, such players are a minority among those that don't have the clear.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Removing bonus players is possible, but it wont fix the issue, at it best you will remove total clueless players from the group (which can be verified by asking them questions about the fight), at it worst you are putting a wall before newcomers who have skill and want to learn and improve these newcomers often do their best to prepare by reading guides.

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They can make their own clear parties any day of the week. Ther's nothing at all stopping them.

I recall a Titan EX farm I did once. A DRG snuck in who had no clear, died to every landslide and not only got Gulfaxi on their clear, but did the same crap and got nightmare on the very next clear. Then they left afterwards. Is that fair? Cause when you're against options like this, this is the EXACT behavior you're enabling.

That was months ago too and I STILL don't have Nightmare :(

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Originally Posted by LunaSnowfield

Balmung is full of elitists(baddies) ***holes that deserve to die already.

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People actually do content in Balmung? I thought everyone just goes to Ul'dah to ERP

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

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While I like your attitude and I have gotten a clear or two in a farm run. I did put in the effort on my own to learn the fight and practice it.
Why if a party leader ever asks - hey there's someone with so and so % asking to join I'll always be for it. Often enough that person will be doing a lot better than most of the people on farm and do less mistakes in the end.

Thordan especially was fun in this... we've had farms and then we had "farms" where you wiped for an hour for one clear - with people that 5 minutes before executed everything flawlessly...

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Originally Posted by Laerune

So lets say you find a way a to exclude bonus players from the PF, this still doesnt guarantee that the other players know what they are doing or that they are able to clear the run. A bad player that was carried once can easily lie to you and be bad. What happens then? How will you filter those players?

Removing bonus players is possible, but it wont fix the issue, at it best you will remove total clueless players from the group (which can be verified by asking them questions about the fight), at it worst you are putting a wall before newcomers who have skill and want to learn and improve these newcomers often do their best to prepare by reading guides.

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Can we just stop posting this logic in any thread about any topic, please?

Just because a suggestion doesn't stop all bad cases of a thing from happening doesn't mean it wouldn't be an improvement.

If something helps a bit, it helps. It doesn't have to solve every problem ever to be worth it.

Here is a question what if someone has the achievement but they haven't cleared the fight on say their 2nd class which is equally geared to their main..they flag up as a bonus but they have a clear..how do determine if they should be in your farm group? You cant.

I reckon there should be a training icon or practice icon rather then a ban all non clear people.

I always ask if I could join a group if I KNOW I'm clear-ready and they are farming. Sadly, the leader don't always communicate it to the group, so when we enter, everyone is disturbed when the bonus pops up. In one group, the ones who had the clear and complaining were the ones messing up the most.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Here is a question what if someone has the achievement but they haven't cleared the fight on say their 2nd class which is equally geared to their main..they flag up as a bonus but they have a clear..how do determine if they should be in your farm group? You cant.

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Such a person should explain this situation to the party leader and ask to join.

I know someone who did exactly this back during 2nd coil progression with a group looking for a tank for T6 and ended up in two statics at once.

*EDIT: I assume you meant an alt character of course

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Here is a question what if someone has the achievement but they haven't cleared the fight on say their 2nd class which is equally geared to their main..they flag up as a bonus but they have a clear

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First time bonus is per person, not per class. Guildhests are the only exception, and nobody farms those.