Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
If you give your neighboor the keys to your house, the combination of your safe and a written allowance saying 'You may take/place any items in my house.' then yes.
FC Chest Looting
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03-11-2016, 09:07 PMNeophyte
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03-11-2016, 09:54 PMReinhaThis right here is the reason why SE will most likely not take action. It's the OP's word against the "thief's". The have been cases of entire fc:s turning against a member in which case it would be easy to blame a leaving member of theft even if he only took what he put in. Only the involved know what really happened. Blacklisting is an option if you, OP, think you were in the right. The fact of the matter is that the person had a right to take things from the shared chest. Sharing a bank account doesn't only mean that you can take other people's things/gil. It also means other people can take your things/gil. It's how it is with real life bank accounts as well and that's why you shouldn't ever put all of your money on a shared account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
If you apply it to final fantasy, being able to look but not touch is called "Deposit Only" (like when you can enter a work room but not remove items from there). Not the same as "Full Access" to a bank tab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
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03-11-2016, 10:32 PMworldofneilI'm sorry, but that is a terrible analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
People with FC chest permissions were explicitly given permission to add/remove items from the company chest. Unless you have explicitly given your neighbour the same permission to take your car keys (and your car) it's not the same thing.
Sucky as it sounds, as others have pointed out, and as SE have demonstrated, if you give someone permissions to remove stuff from the chest, they are allowed to do just that, whether you like it or not. If you're not happy they could technically remove items at any point, for any reason, then don't give them chest access. -
03-11-2016, 10:33 PMJetstream_FoxI don't really think you know how theft works. I work at a casino, I have permission to enter soft count (where they count the money) if I take money out of this room, despite having access to this room, it's databases and safes, I lose my job. For that money belongs to my job, not me, despite me having full access to it. Based on your logic with me having full access, the keys and the codes, to my jobs ridiculous amount of money, I should be able to take it, quit, and walk out a free man and my job couldn't do anything about it, because they gave me access to this area per my job requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
Now let's apply to this final fantasy, I belong to a free company, I have access to slot one of the chest, I take all the items, quit your company and do whatever I want with those items. I still committed a theft because those items belong to your free company and were intended to be used by free company members. I am no longer a company member but I have all your stacks of alligator pears, that is theft, no matter how you want to slice it.
Either way I don't care since I'm the only member in my free company and no one can touch any of my 45 million I've saved up, any of the crafting items, grade 5 materia, or ilv 220 items I bleed out to the market for profit. -
03-11-2016, 10:53 PMProtopop
I agree that it would be nice to have GMs able to intervene and given tools in these kind of situations as this sort of thing happens a lot.
What would also be nice is if you could also set how many items or items from a stack a person could take per day on rank settings instead of it being all or nothing. As it is right now as long as you have permission to access the chest you can take everything that isn't in a locked tab. -
03-11-2016, 11:11 PMLionFranco
This is why My FC has specific rules about the FC chest and permissions are set accordingly. Only the first tab is the one everyone has access to, and only after their first week with the FC. Then the rules are very clear that they are to share any items in the chest (don't take all 300 cordial for yourself, take a stack of 20 or so), the last 2 slots and the Gil are only accessible by the most trusted members, and promotions can only be performed by guild leaders. We have no super rare items in that first tab, and if anyone wants materia or rare mats they only need to ask. I gather most mats myself and our airships bring most materia.
I trust most of the people in my fc, abut it is also about making sure you are careful with the items your fc has. -
03-11-2016, 11:15 PMEnergy2k8No, you are wrong. In Final Fantasy you have permission to take stuff from the free company chest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
Edit: Quoted the wrong part of your post. -
03-11-2016, 11:34 PMLadyValPretty sure 100% of FCs with chest access operate under the assumption of "You have access, and we are trusting you not to screw us," just as when I was working in fine jewelry I had safe combinations and security codes and my job assumed I would not screw them. The difference is, irl the police will hunt you down and punish you. GMs may or may not, in-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy2k8
If you believe that because you can, makes it okay if you do, then I find you have questionable moral character at the very best.
The FC leader should have been more careful with the chest and equally as important, the thief (who probably scammed the FC into believing they wanted to be a participating member just for chest access, which counts as scamming in the ToS and is punishable, read it) should be punished for his actions and SE should do something about it. -
03-11-2016, 11:43 PMCanadane
To those giving real life analogies, you most seem to be forgetting one thing. The rank was allowed full deposit/withdrawal access. They were given explicit permission using the permission system to take what they wanted.
There are ways to prevent this from happening. Keep page 3 on lockdown to a higher rank. Keep page 2 deposit-only. Keep page 1 full of stuff that wouldn't be the end of the world if looted. This is just one example of keeping things in check, but instead of handing over the safe combination and saying "take what you want" it's now giving access to only the minimum of items, and if they want something more important, they get an officer, manager, Godking Saley, or whatever you want to take it out for them.
It may feel like it's unfair when you're in Anethum's position, but the reality of it is, it was an oversight by Anethum as unfortunate as it was, but entirely fair dealings. -
03-12-2016, 12:02 AMDragonFlyyThe MMO that shall not be named doesn't on the simple grounds that it was the user (ie. guild Leader)'s fault, not anything that can be controlled by the game masters.Quote:
Other MMORPGs have no problem dealing with griefing like this with impunity
I do know one thing Blizzard added that helps a bit, but is different situation. Making it so an authenticator has to be attached to access the guild bank. That was a stolen account (even a leaders) can't get the items with an authentocator. As far as punisment and reversal of items taken from guild banks, Blizzard gives the same answer you got. Not their fault, not going to help.
As to the post about working in a casino. There is a difference. In the casino they never told you that you could take anything you wanted and in the contract you signed to work there it is explicit that you would not steal from them. In an FC chest, if you have permission to take an item, you are completely allowed. It's not even stealing really, it's just taking items. Morally it's wrong, but it's not against the rules. If someone broke the rules to get the items, then I'd agree with you, but that person was given the right to take the items. That's why SE won't intervene. Huge difference in your analogy. -
03-12-2016, 02:56 AMKosmos992kIt doesn't matter how publicly available the rules of this FC were, they do not amount to the law of the land or terms of service, they are a social construct within that FC only.Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnRyins
The contents of a FC chest are *NOT* public property, they are company property that is made available for individual use by authorized company members. There's no victim shaming in pointing these things out, nor is there any reason to return to the OPs flawed question. It's very frustrating when someone abuses their company chest privileges, you're certainly in your rights to report that player for griefing and disrupting your play, as are the other members of your FC. Other than that, there is nothing you can do because the player was in fact authorized to access the chest.
The GMs are not repo men, they are not going to recover the property that you believe was stolen, because it was taken by someone with authority to do so. They might discipline the player for the disruption of other players and griefing, but that's an entirely different matter.
The one thing that would 'help' this type of situation, would be the ability to set a maximum number of items, amount of gil, number of shards, crystals or clusters, that can be withdrawn by rank in the span of a day or week. That would slow down such abuse, but it would still be up to the FC master to set appropriate permissions and limits. -
03-12-2016, 03:04 AMTeryaaniThat lovely flaw was the reason that we've been hyper paranoid about who we give promotion permissions to.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlatantPyre
OP, we have a single open tab in our company chest and that's it. Everything else is locked to leader/co-leader. From past experience if you give people the right to take something, they're going to take it. The honor system doesn't work in the long run. -
03-12-2016, 03:09 AMAlphaFox
Morale of the story here, if you don't want people to "steal" have your FC leader (or yourself) check the rules and make sure random people you invite are not able to promote or raid the FC vault. Especially if your FC is prone to random invites.
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03-12-2016, 05:36 AMAnethum
Added an edit to the first post, as some of the posts in this thread have been more witch hunty and acerbic than it should probably be in a post about game action.
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03-12-2016, 06:27 AMSkivvyPoint is, this is a bloody video game and not real life. So enough of that silly stuff. A person was given full persmissions to take/receive items from a FC chest. They opted to take all and run. Nothing here is against the rules. Is it a shitty situation? Of course. We'd all like to think people are more decent than that, but there will always be those who surprise you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
Take more caution with those you promote and who has access to what. Also remember that anyone can promote above themselves, so that ability really should be locked down hard. -
03-12-2016, 06:29 AMDPZ2Always have to wonder about some players. Right? So, where do you come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
The big difference between working at a casino and being in a Free Company while playing a game is that you are not hired by the Free Company.
The only Justice that applies in-game is bound to the Terms of Service. The GMs are not police. You'll never have the satisfaction of knowing that punishment has been imposed. There is no "day in court" or "restitution". -
03-12-2016, 06:32 AMAlahra
SE doesn't generally intervene in player disputes of this nature unless there is explicit chat log record in which a player agrees to something (such as loot rules) and then deliberately goes back on that agreement.
If a rank has permission to withdraw and deposit, it has those permissions, and FCs unfortunately bear the responsibility for players who abuse those privileges. It is possible to set permissions per Chest tab, so it's generally best to keep the "important" stuff on a tab that only trusted members can access. -
03-12-2016, 08:19 AMUltimateAoe2i wonder where you crawl out of though tbh..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
You're comparing a real life situation to a video game...
a vidya gaem... pls.
Plus you'd be arrested because well, yknow, that's real-life theft. You're held accountable for your own job.
WHERE AS IN THIS SITUATION:
The FC leader didn't correct set his/her permission. So, it's the leader's fault, no one else. It doesn't mean that the person who did it will be left unharmed with no consequence, though. -
03-12-2016, 08:47 AMTheUltimateSeph
FC leader made a mistake. Should just learn from it and move on. I totally agree with everyone saying it's their fault.
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03-12-2016, 08:54 AMTeryaaniYeah, his example works if an exploit was used to get into the FC chest. There isn't a real world equivalent for this. Maybe a person who left a giant pile of stuff in front of their house with a "Take one" sign (as the person had permission) and then getting upset that the person took things.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2
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03-12-2016, 09:08 AMSkivvyQuote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
Or better yet, one of those "leave a penny / take a penny" things you see at cash registers. But in this case, some annoying prat came and took all the pennies. -
03-12-2016, 09:20 AMThirdKeyOfSunGood thing I only set pennies there and not the one hundred dollar bills then huh D:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
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03-12-2016, 09:22 AMSkivvyExactly ;) Gotta be smart with the important things.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdKeyOfSun
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03-12-2016, 11:51 AMAnaviAnaelTo me it's more like you invite your neighbors over and tell them to help themselves to the fridge and they eat all your food. You technically gave them permission, but it's still a rotten thing to do and completely disrespectful of your time and resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
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03-12-2016, 11:53 AMFaileExperimentEven in your flawed example, if you took the money and then quit your job, it doesn't mean you own said money. You just removed the money to perform your job duties. Your job duties will never at any point give you ownership of the money itself. The FFXIV inventory system works differently. If you can place something in your inventory, you own it immediately unless you place it someone else's inventory (FC chest, for example). So if some one has remove privileges to an FC chest, they will legitimately own anything they take out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
The FC may have their own "rules" about how to use the chest, but that isn't enforceable against anyone, because the only rules that matter are the FC chest permission settings. -
03-12-2016, 02:48 PMZantitrachBut nowhere in your job responsibilities does it become your money. Add bold to your words and type in caps all you want, your job has given you permission to count theirmoney, not take possession of it. Nowhere does the money become yours. This next poster said it more eloquently...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment