All Tanks are equal.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Don't joke about that, I've actually seen some people meld battledance Vs into their lore gear.

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I sold one(a retainer brought it back, I though malm kelp would be worth more!) for 500K on Jenova last week, or the week before...

Considering warriors seem to fail to see their Midan wep is far superior to plds and especially drks.

Why war got worst augmented wep and even 230 one you ask? Simple to keep the illusion of balance dpswise before Warriors get that amazeing stat Midan axe.

Warrior:
Midan Metal Axe
Strength +148 Vitality +162 Critical Hit Rate +123 Determination +83
Augmented Hellfire Battleaxe
Strength +141 Vitality +154 Parry +84 Skill Speed +120

PLD:
Midan Metal Sword + Shield
Strength +148 Vitality +162 Determination +84 Skill Speed +61 Parry +35 Critical Hit Rate +25
Augmented Hellfire Blade + Shield
Strength +141 Vitality +154 Parry +60 Critical Hit Rate +86 Determination +23 Skill Speed +34

DRK:
Midan Metal Greatsword
Strength +148 Vitality +162 Determination +83 Skill Speed +123
Augmented Hellfire Guillotine
Strength +141 Vitality +154 Parry +84 Critical Hit Rate +120

So to correct the thread title "All Tanks are NOT equal."

I am genuinely curious as to what a WAR(s) did to you to have scarred you so severely that your entire view of the WAR class, population, and perhaps even concept, is so skewed towards complete unadulterated hatred that you are unable to rationalize a reasonable argument/thought process.


SPEAK TO ME CHILD! TELL ME WHAT AILS YOU ON YOUR DAY TO DAY BASIS! POINT ON THE DOLL WHERE THE BAD WAR TOUCHED YOU!

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

So to correct the thread title "All Tanks are NOT equal."

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Why do weapons that you're more than likely never going to see bother you so much?

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Why do weapons that you're more than likely never going to see bother you so much?

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She'll see them on all the WARs doing more dps than her DRG, which then causes her to come to the forums and complain about how op WAR is and then praise SE for nerfing WAR even though the other two tanks were hit harder.

...The secondary stats of the Augmented Hellfire Guillotine compared to Midan Metal Greatsword thou...

DAT Axe is ugly as all hell but den stats so sexy

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

-snip-

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Honestly can't say I care about a weapon that is only rewarded after clearing a tier.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Considering warriors seem to fail to see their Midan wep is far superior to plds and especially drks.

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One thing to note, is that all this could change with their planned overhaul to parry. For all we know the change could be so good, you'll actively want parry over everything else. (Not likely, but not impossible either).

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I am genuinely curious as to what a WAR(s) did to you to have scarred you so severely that your entire view of the WAR class, population, and perhaps even concept, is so skewed towards complete unadulterated hatred that you are unable to rationalize a reasonable argument/thought process.


SPEAK TO ME CHILD! TELL ME WHAT AILS YOU ON YOUR DAY TO DAY BASIS! POINT ON THE DOLL WHERE THE BAD WAR TOUCHED YOU!

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Top fucking kek

Ok guys lets be honest here, WARs are ridiculous. Why do you think every static wants a WAR? there tank stance gives them the same benefits as the other tanks EXCEPT WARs actually get more HP in their tank stance ant PLD and DRK do not, now yes PLD can block occasionally (from the front) and DRK can parry but WARs also have the highest damage output of all tanks so where is the balance there? Now i do have to say the DRK and PLD do seem to be balanced amongst themselves so clearly SE can keep tanks equal but still retain their uniqueness so why are WARs so much better? I would also like to know why WARs are the only tank that in DPS stance can actually match (and sometimes even beat) DPS on damage.

If we are all honest with ourselves then we would HAVE to admit that WARs ARE the superior tanks and highly imbalanced, but if they weren't then we probably wouldn't get many end game raids done. However SE do not need to nurf the WARs but simply buff DRK and PLD to match them.

Assuming equal base VIT, WAR/PLD/DRK all have the same eHP in and out of tank stance. In fact, PLD/DRK receive more effective healing from healing abilities than WAR, which is generally balanced out by WAR's self healing.

WAR/PLD/DRK do comparable damage, parses generally benefit WAR more as their damage is burst based. The actual problem is that only WAR and NIN bring the slashing debuff, and not having a WAR means you get less DPS out of your NIN to have comparable tank DPS to an X/WAR combo resulting in less gDPS.

Also WAR can't beat a DPS in damage anymore, even bad ones should reasonably be able to beat us. You have to be doing completely god awful to get outparsed by a WAR.

Thank you and well said Spook. Somebody's got to stop the madness

is a pld/drk +nin combo viable? Nope nin loses to much dps, unless the group is over geared for the raid.

That simple sentence shows all tanks are not equal. Don’t even try to deny that warriors!

edit 1: and also I love how people that love playing warriors also seem to be keyboard warriors that don't want ballance as would lose their priority spots.

edit 2: due to loss of dps of nin in our drk/pld formation I will have to level and gear war just so we have the raid dps needed to clear stuff, that ballance?

true tank ballance each class 33.3infinity% choice instead of war 75% and pld or drk takes other 25%

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

edit 1: and also I love how people that love playing warriors also seem to be keyboard warriors that don't want ballance as would lose their priority spots.

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Alright, I confess. After swapping to Warrior two weeks ago I've gone mad with power and am 100% convinced that only I, as a god among petty pebbles, deserve to be able to out tank a Paladin, out heal a White Mage and out DPS a Monk.

Every other class is clearly a trap designed to ensnare silly, naive noobs into picking something that is not Warrior. Because of this, I feel like it is my god given duty (because I didn't fall for said trap) to bathe this forum in my righteous and just rage.

all they need to do is rework nin slashing debuff in away that dosent drop the nins dps then I think ballance will be ok.

and here was me thinking that the NIN dps loss from having to apply their own slashing debuff would be somewhat mitigated by the PLD and DRK dps benefiting from that same debuff... unless you know, the PLD and DRK are constantly running about in perma-tank stance, because then the dps loss from NIN applying the debuff is not your problem.

I keep waiting for more "Animal Farm" quotes but so far only the Dragoon has touched one.

"All Tanks are equal, but some are more equal than others."

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Originally Posted by Daragon

and here was me thinking that the NIN dps loss from having to apply their own slashing debuff would be somewhat mitigated by the PLD and DRK dps benefiting from that same debuff... unless you know, the PLD and DRK are constantly running about in perma-tank stance, because then the dps loss from NIN applying the debuff is not your problem.

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spoken like a true warrior pity us Drks and plds cant apply our own slashing debuffs or you would lose number 1 raid group choice.

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Originally Posted by Daragon

and here was me thinking that the NIN dps loss from having to apply their own slashing debuff would be somewhat mitigated by the PLD and DRK dps benefiting from that same debuff... unless you know, the PLD and DRK are constantly running about in perma-tank stance, because then the dps loss from NIN applying the debuff is not your problem.

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WAR's benefit from their own debuff as well. No matter which way you slice it, three classes in either set-up benefit from slashing resist down. The only way the WARless set-up pulls ahead is if PLD or DRK did more damage than a WAR (which they don't) by such a margin that the DPS loss incurred by the NIN is made up for.

Whilst I think Valkyrie-Amber is hysterical to the point of comical, they aren't wrong. WAR is the god of the OT spot, when you get to a point where WAR's are doing purple cages in A7S (Berserk says hi) you'd be crazy to not bring one. Unless your intention is to play WARless for some sub-optimal (the lulz) reason.

I was merely pointing out the fallacy in your argument since you seem to only be looking at the dps of 1 job as opposed to raid-wide dps, which is what people should be focussed on when raiding. If you want to be arbitrary about it, then I guess it'd go something like this...

Tanks first: WAR is clearly OP and always will be for some reason blah blah so that's in regardless, DRK does more damage than PLD so back to 3.0 style and PLD is out.

DPS: NIN has Trick Attack and Goad, DRG has piercing debuff to help BRD and MCH, so MNK is gone. then we take BRD since MCH has that pesky turret, and BLM as it still has a slightly better single target dps rate. so MCH and SMN are out.

Heals: well AST is too RNG on cards so we'll just stick with SCH and WHM.

There we go, every raid group should now be WAR, DRK, NIN, DRG, BRD, BLM, SCH, WHM because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Daragon

There we go, every raid group should now be WAR, DRK, NIN, DRG, BRD, BLM, SCH, WHM because reasons.

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Still better love story than War/War setup. Thanks god, there is place for poor DRK out there, despite the fact we bring only raw deeps, no utility at all, until you really want to kick out the monk.

While i understand DPS choice, exchanging BLM for MNK may prove a better idea, since good MNK is good. 3 mellee is a bit crowdy, but it no longer matters since all stacks at bosses sexy butts for most time.

umm if you have a drk monks utility apart from mantra is nill.... + 3 melee slows lb gadge slightly like if you went 3 casters for example. hence why mch and melee heavy partys are not that common, compaired to the the old 2 melee 2 caster style.

on a side note to all my warrior haters out there. yes I used to main drg but switched to monk 3.0 cause I liked the less passive mostly rear style.

I never truly mained pld since about 2.4-2.5 and yes that’s my only 60 tank, now starting to level war agin its style reminds me more of a melee dps...

my drg and mnk dps were always good so if war continues like that would be cake for me, I can see why Warriors complain cause any nerfs could kill war a fun class
as nerfs can kill all but again. only reason I’m leveling war is cause our nins dps is dropped and btw as pld I stand st in sword oath 90% of the time my pentamelded green 220 hq.
My dps gain from our nin sets me at about 1k dps but the nin suffers more than 200dps loss cause pld cant even do slashing debuff on their own. my idea was we are drk/pld tanks
so take nin slashing, sadly it doesn’t work so well.

So again like old times a war is needed all party’s, while i agree war seems fun at this point but I would be blind to say the style isn’t more fun and strong feeling... but cause the others
suffer a change is needed rather than nerf war why not just buff pld and drk to allow for true party choices instead of the optimal set ones till over geared.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

umm if you have a drk monks utility apart from mantra is nill.... + 3 melee slows lb gadge slightly like if you went 3 casters for example. hence why mch and melee heavy partys are not that common, compaired to the the old 2 melee 2 caster style.

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Not sure where you're getting your information, but you're wrong. LB gauge is only slowed when there are multiples of the same job in the party.

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Originally Posted by NIN104

Ok guys lets be honest here, WARs are ridiculous. Why do you think every static wants a WAR? there tank stance gives them the same benefits as the other tanks EXCEPT WARs actually get more HP in their tank stance ant PLD and DRK do not

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Wrong. Not the same Benefits.
PLD's Shield Oath: Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 15%. Increases accuracy by 5%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath. Effect ends upon reuse.
DRK's Grit: Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Effect ends upon reuse.
WAR's Defiance: Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.

WAR would be OP as hell if they had a reduced damage received by 20%, increased maximum HP by 25%, increased enmity, lowers damage dealt by 25%, increased HP recovery by curing magic by 20% for self, and increased chance to hit by 5%. As a WAR main...even I think a tank stance like this is madness.

But as for the OP, this thread should not have even been created. All tanks are equal? This is far from the truth, play all three tanks at 60 and see for yourself before making this kind of ridiculous thread.

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Originally Posted by Reaver_Bharash

Wrong. Not the same Benefits.
PLD's Shield Oath: Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 15%. Increases accuracy by 5%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath. Effect ends upon reuse.
DRK's Grit: Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Effect ends upon reuse.
WAR's Defiance: Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.

WAR would be OP as hell if they had a reduced damage received by 20%, increased maximum HP by 25%, increased enmity, lowers damage dealt by 25%, increased HP recovery by curing magic by 20% for self, and increased chance to hit by 5%. As a WAR main...even I think a tank stance like this is madness.

But as for the OP, this thread should not have even been created. All tanks are equal? This is far from the truth, play all three tanks at 60 and see for yourself before making this kind of ridiculous thread.

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Paladin is 15% now instead of 20%.

This is why Dark and Paladin are near the same DPS when they are going full damage.

All Tanks are Equal just some more Equal than others

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Originally Posted by Ragnorak

All Tanks are Equal just some more Equal than others

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Meaning they aren't equal at all.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Not sure where you're getting your information, but you're wrong. LB gauge is only slowed when there are multiples of the same job in the party.

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Sorry but if i remember correctly one patch note they say more than 2 melees dps Or casters afect your LB

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Originally Posted by Kathyz

Sorry but if i remember correctly one patch note they say more than 2 melees dps Or casters afect your LB

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I believe they did that in 3.1 (?) and then quickly reverted it. In 3.2 they made so that if you have 2+ of the same job and/or you break the 2/2/4 composition. Likely to try and discourage solo tank/heal comps and bringing an extra DPS.

Side note: 3.2 also made it so doubles in DF solo content no longer slow LB gauge.

Edit: Exact wording:

Dungeons and trials accessible solo via the Duty Finder:

• The Limit Break Gauge will no longer fill more slowly when multiple members of the same class/job are in the party.

Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly under the following conditions:

• Three or more party members are playing as tanks.
• Five or more party members are playing as DPS.
• Three or more party members are playing as healers.
• Two or more party members are playing the same class or job.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

I believe they did that in 3.1 (?) and then quickly reverted it. In 3.2 they made so that if you have 2+ of the same job and/or you break the 2/2/4 composition. Likely to try and discourage solo tank/heal comps and bringing an extra DPS.

Side note: 3.2 also made it so doubles in DF solo content no longer slow LB gauge.


Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly under the following conditions:

• Three or more party members are playing as tanks.
• Five or more party members are playing as DPS.
• Three or more party members are playing as healers.
• Two or more party members are playing the same class or job.

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Ooo thanks for the info i dint get that!! And sorry for troubles :3

Ok so a bit off topic but at least two people mentioned liking monk because its mostly rear... of monks 6 primary attacks 3 are rear and 3 are flank... Two of the short duration buffs are from flank attacks... What are you people talking about?

I also find it fun that the majority of content for the majority of people this stuff doesn't matter. The differences between dps, healers, and tanks is meh most of the time. Unless for some odd reason you care about server/world first clears... and if you care about that stuff you have multiple jobs leveled and geared anyway. That is also ignoring skill level. A great PLD will be better than a bad DRK or WAR on every measure.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Paladin is 15% now instead of 20%.

This is why Dark and Paladin are near the same DPS when they are going full damage.

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What are the top parses for both?

I have a hard time seeing PLD getting close to DRK MT damage with that 5% increase. DRK has stronger DOTs, permanent 15% damage boost vs 30s up, 60s down 30% increase, more oGCD abilities, and the average potency of alternating DASE and DE combos is still higher than straight RA combos.

If PLD damage ever gets even close to DRK damage, that is the day DRK becomes a completely useless tank for anything but clearing huge amounts of trash.

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Originally Posted by Falar

What are the top parses for both?

I have a hard time seeing PLD getting close to DRK MT damage with that 5% increase. DRK has stronger DOTs, permanent 15% damage boost vs 30s up, 60s down 30% increase, more oGCD abilities, and the average potency of alternating DASE and DE combos is still higher than straight RA combos.

If PLD damage ever gets even close to DRK damage, that is the day DRK becomes a completely useless tank for anything but clearing huge amounts of trash.

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It's not just that, it's also the buff to the enmity multiplier of Savage Blade and Shield Oath, allowing for less need to use Rage of Halone to hold hate, plus the HUGE buff to goring blade (both the initial hit and the dot potency were buffed). Don't forget that that 5% lower penalty on Shield Oath is actually a 6.25% increase in damage.