Tanks are still taking STR accessories.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

tank swaps can be pretty easily ignored in m5, m7, and m8 on normal assuming your healers have boss awareness of when to queue up the bigger heals .

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Thats a LOT of faith in the DF.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Thats a LOT of faith in the DF.

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Tell me about it. I just finished Cuff of the Son (story) and despite telling the other tank when to swap. I had to solo tank while he had grit off for everything besides the doubles phase (~i200 or just over by the looks). Thank got DF healers kept me alive despite dropping once into the 200's. Before food (Kaiser) I currently have ~22000 hp and dropping to 200-ish with some cool downs. Thank god they were good healers.

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Looking at the numbers fending pieces will always give more attack than strength, but not so much secondary. From what I can tell the difference between plain Vit and Str accessories at the same ilevel is about 1 ATP.

However given the gap on left side fending gear between STR and VIT. Strength Materia III has +4 (1.8 atp), STR IV +7 (3.15 atp) and STR V +15 (6.75). I am assuming +STR wont go above or much past Vit's initial value. If fending left (not including the belt) can add at least 4 to 7 points of Str from one meld you could get anywhere from +9 ~+15.75 atp by melding one strength Materia onto each left fending. That leaves the second slot (if there) for a larger secondary then go conservative on the remaining three unless you can afford it. The right side on +i220 I'm assuming could hold 1 full Strength V meld.

If anything closing the gap between Strength and Vitality on the left and boosting STR and DPS secondary (or Acc for savage) looks like a more practical means given the current adjustments. So despite the difference in secondary on melded slaying and fending accessories. Other than max HP, what does a difference of 5 ATP amount to in comparison to the difference in crit/det? If you can put one full Str V Materia on each fending accessory (+33.75 atp) and over meld the secondary. How would that be optimal compared to putting one Vit V Materia on Maiming accessories and doing the same thing?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I dunno about the other tanks but an i240 fending set with 0 parry is possible on DRK.

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If you don't mind me asking but what is this magical no parry set, and can it be done with i220? (I don't have a static for raiding savage at the minute)

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

If you don't mind me asking but what is this magical no parry set, and can it be done with i220? (I don't have a static for raiding savage at the minute)

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Look at gear on Ariyala.

I don't know what it is at i220 because, as a DRK main and as a raid MT, I do not go out of my way to minimize my parry stat during progression, nor do I recommend it.

But if you're not raiding then screw it. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/DRK will show you.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

If you don't mind me asking but what is this magical no parry set, and can it be done with i220? (I don't have a static for raiding savage at the minute)

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like Syzy said, Ariyala, it's done with 240 "BiS" and yes it can be done with 220 because it's crafted or midian, just mix and match.

Disclaimer: i found a picture telling acc caps but i can not verify if they are correct but if they are BiS CAN NOT be done with 0 parry (whats 36 parry though?) if the following is to be believed.

http://imgur.com/Eotal1y
http://imgur.com/Eotal1y

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._accuracy_cap/

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

If you don't mind me asking but what is this magical no parry set, and can it be done with i220? (I don't have a static for raiding savage at the minute)

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You can do it with a mix of 220 crafted and 220 midan, basically using those to replace anything 230 that has parry. I agree with Syzygian that you shouldn't go out of your way to minimize parry during progression, but if you're able to gather the items needed for the crafted stuff, it's surprisingly cheap.

What you can do right now if you're not planning to raid or have the ability to gather the crafted mats is:
-Lore headpiece
-Lore body
-Crafted arms
-Midas belt
-Midas legs
-Midas feet
-Midas choker
-Lore earrings
-Lore bracelets
-Left Lore ring
-Right crafted ring

The Lore right side is pretty horribly optimized. I would not recommend buying the crafted stuff off the MB unless you're rich and have money to throw around. Although, you could make the argument that higher ilv on right side means more defense and vitality, which would benefit the group as a whole a bit more than better secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Thats a LOT of faith in the DF.

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It helps when you go in as a certain tank for each turn as well. I'll go as PLD for A7 and DRK for A8 and your cooldown affinity for each respective tank buster will allow you to not require a tank swap and lessen the load on less skilled healers.

Recently did the switch from STR to VIT and won't ever look back. I've done Midas on DF twice now (full clear last week, this week just did M6 and M7..)

As someone stated: It's possible to cheese the tank swap but I wouldn't trust my life in DF healers (No offence to healers; I just trust my wife healer to keep me alive a lot more.). So the extra health is nice if I get a tank that doesn't provoke off of me. Also, the cushion in health allows us to deal with a situation if we do muck up; that buffer does wonders.

I'll let the others DPS the crap out of things. I'll just focus on staying alive, now.

Whenever and whatever I'm tanking, I'll take a 22% discount on damage much sooner than absorb the full brunt of it for a questionable increase in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Whenever and whatever I'm tanking, I'll take a 22% discount on damage much sooner than absorb the full brunt of it for a questionable increase in DPS.

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Where are you getting that 22% from exactly, and it's not a "questionable" increase. It's a tradeoff of 20% more damage received for a 20% damage gain for DRK, as well as being able to use Blood Weapon and getting more MP back and increasing DPS even further, and for PLD a 20% more damage received for a 15% damage gain. Taking off your tank stance situationally has its uses.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Where are you getting that 22% from exactly, and it's not a "questionable" increase. It's a tradeoff of 20% more damage received for a 20% damage gain for DRK, as well as being able to use Blood Weapon and getting more MP back and increasing DPS even further, and for PLD a 20% more damage received for a 15% damage gain. Taking off your tank stance situationally has its uses.

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Not completely accurate. With Grit and Darkside on, you operate at 92% of your default damage with neither active. Turning grit off buffs your damage to 115%. That's a straight up 25% damage increase swapping from Grit -> no Grit. It's a 20% loss to swap back to Grit.

Similarly for Paladin, going from 85% -> 100% is a gain of ~17.6%, not including the additional Sword Oath auto buff. Going back is a 15% decrease.

Percentages are multiplicative, not additive. You should really not think of 80% damage -> 100% damage being a 20% boost in damage, because it just honestly is not.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Not completely accurate. With Grit and Darkside on, you operate at 92% of your default damage with neither active. Turning grit off buffs your damage to 115%. That's a straight up 25% damage increase swapping from Grit -> no Grit. It's a 20% loss to swap back to Grit.

Similarly for Paladin, going from 85% -> 100% is a gain of ~17.6%, not including the additional Sword Oath auto buff. Going back is a 15% decrease.

Percentages are multiplicative, not additive. You should really not think of 80% damage -> 100% damage being a 20% boost in damage, because it just honestly is not.

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With all Paladin buffs on + math paladins are 93.5% damage where Dark Knights are 92% damage.

I think Grit should be changed to 15% from 20% like Shield Oath.

If VIT was scaled to .5 instead of being tied with STR at .45, it would solve this and make tanks very happy campers.

I haven't seen any serious tanks on my server taking any STR acc. They are running full VIT. Maybe pentamelding their crafted VIT 220s, but that's the extent of what I'm seeing. VIT is simply too important.

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Originally Posted by JustalGalkus

Lets face it. Any tank worth his salt isn't going to be using slaying for any reason. the VIT has too many pluses to be casually discarded in lieu of some minor DPS increase which to be honest is complete shit now regardless of what you do.

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Well said :-)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

With all Paladin buffs on + math paladins are 93.5% damage where Dark Knights are 92% damage.

I think Grit should be changed to 15% from 20% like Shield Oath.

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You can't compare the percentages and say which one is stronger. You also need to look at rotational potency. Then you can multiply your pps by your percentage fluctuation and see which one is actually dealing more potency per second (on average). Even then, it'll only give a rough estimate, especially in the case of Dark Knight.

Assuming 0 sks for both (2.5 gcd) since that's optimal for both tanks:

Dark Knight
Rotation - 106.462 pps
ogcds - 37.166 pps

Total: 143.628 pps
Damage penalty: 80%*115% = 92%

Final: 132.138

Paladin
Rotation: 107.556
ogcds: 30

Total: 137.556
Damage penalty: 85%*110% = 93.5%

Final: 128.614

DRK's is skewed down. It shows the minimum amount of Low Blows you'll get. Reprisal is skewed up, since I counted it as being hit everytime it's off cooldown, which doesn't happen. Overall, the DRK one is an underestimation.

PLD's is skewed up. It shows the maximum amount of pps you can possibly be doing. Spirits Within varies with Health (so you'll either have a variable cooldown on it, ranging longer than 30s at times, or you'll do less-than-maximum damage with it (more likely) quite frequently). That coupled with Shield Swipe not always being used on cooldown.

For better comparison:

DRK: 132.138
PLD: 128.614
PLD: 121.049 (pre-3.2)

They brought PLD closer to DRK, but it absolutely did not eclipse.

Granted, good usage of Fight or Flight can essentially make the two classes equal in terms of tank stance taking damage dps, but if we were to change Grit to 15% instead of 20%, DRK's pps according to these calculations would jump upwards to 140.397, which puts the disparity in dps between DRK and PLD back to where it was before the PLD buff. And anyone who argues that DPS between the tanks was fine before 3.2 is just wrong. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by JustalGalkus

Lets face it. Any tank worth his salt isn't going to be using slaying for any reason. the VIT has too many pluses to be casually discarded in lieu of some minor DPS increase which to be honest is complete shit now regardless of what you do.

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I see a lot of people giving props to this quote but the problem being is that a lot of these fending pieces don't have any Crit on them (5 total, 3 of them in the choker slot); that's always going to be a loss.

I've did an experiments to see just how lazy I could be with it recently. I used the following abilities:
- Flash
- Circle of Scorn
- Fast Blade
- Riot Blade
- Shield Lob

I did not lose enmity in any of the fights.

If you want a tank that just stands there and does nothing to contribute to damage, the abilities are already in place for this and there was no need to adjust anything in regards to damage. These changes did not buff paladins, they nerfed warrior and dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

I see a lot of people giving props to this quote but the problem being is that a lot of these fending pieces don't have any Crit on them (5 total, 3 of them in the choker slot); that's always going to be a loss.

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I don't know if you quoted the wrong post or not but:

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minor DPS increase

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Huge Equilibrium HP recovery increase.

You've lost me. Minor increases in Crit are going to result in huge Equilibrium HP recovery increases? How exactly?

Equilibrium can be a critical hit on HP recovery, it has saved me several times doing this in Alexander when the healer, "lagged out" or so they continue to claim.

With the new gear it isn't a minor increase in crit. The build goes from 775 Crit to 854 Crit for Warriors and up to 897 Crit for Dark Knights, without melds. More crit = more heal backs. This counts for paladin's Clemency too.

Right, but if you're going from Fending -> Slaying you're losing a large chunk of HP, even with VIT melded. So is that slight (yes, that is a slight increase) in crit % chance worth giving up that HP for? I'd have to go check, but I'm 99% sure you can avoid Parry entirely at least on accessories with Fending, so I'm not even sure if this matters at all. I think people are genuinely stuck in this mindset from 2.0-3.1 that Slaying can still matter, but when it did we were giving up some HP for a lot of AP - that's when it was worth it, especially pentamelds vs Fending/Slaying. Now it's like... is a minor increase in AP (literally like 1-2 a piece, if that) plus some slight increase in crit chance worth giving up a solid chunk of HP? I really can't get behind that logic.

You need enough HP to survive the tank buster and then the blow immediately following it. Extra HP is not necessary and it is better to begin min-maxing at this point. Due to damage from tanks no longer meaning anything, assigning more points into vitality doesn't help more than assigning it into strength. The rest of these points should be focused on secondary stats.

Accuracy, once at cap has no point in getting any further.
Determination helps with overall damage, but overall damage meaning nothing any longer, again no point in doing this.
Skill speed, lets you get hits off faster but as we aren't focusing on damage any longer this means nothing as well.
Parry, lol parry has been broken since 3.0.
Critical Hit Rate, the last of the stats, the only one that affects more than just damage output. This is where we should focus.

Right, however, that HP does have a worth - it does equate to an increase in healer DPS, GCD to GCD, as they base their healing/DPS GCDS required based on your HP% at certain points. So your minor increase in damage and minor increase in crit rate will equate to a loss of healer DPS, and therefore a loss of gDPS. You will cost yourself DPS in the end, have less HP, and just be an unnecessary hindrance to your group. If we're talking about min/max BiS, then you can just go with the Fending accessories that avoid Parry. For progression you want to be using full VIT, not trying to meet HP thresholds, because your group doesn't know the mechanics and you're going to want that extra HP, on top of the fact that you'll only be dealing slightly more personal DPS if you try and min/max at that point which may even, as I said, cost you gDPS in which case you've literally gained nothing and only lost.

I have been tanking as WAR since 2.0. I discovered STR tanking in early 2.1. I know everything there is to know about it. It is no longer worth considering. If you would like to be a hindrance to your group because you think that it's still a thing, be my guest. Enjoy your slightly higher crit Equilibrium rate.

You're not losing any healer DPS to an extra 2460 HP on the tank.

The idea that this is about strength versus vitality anymore is ridiculous. The tank damage is now negligible and your HP pools are more than set, this is all about secondary stats on the equipment.

1 broil is more dps than the extra you can put out with slaying or pentameld accessories.

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Originally Posted by Adera

1 broil is more dps than the extra you can put out with slaying or pentameld accessories.

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Neat. Please read the previous posts about the secondary stats explained. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Adera

1 broil is more dps than the extra you can put out with slaying or pentameld accessories.

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Not sure if serious. You better expand on this.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

Not sure if serious. You better expand on this.

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Using best slaying over worst fending you gain about 5,22 AP from right side gear. Let's assume you have 900AP. 5,22/900 = 0,0058 = 0,58% more. So You'll effectively gain give or take 0,6% personal dps. Let's say you do 800 dps with with full fending. After the switch you will do 1,0058 x 800dps. = 804,6 . So that is 4,6 dps more.

Now let's say a single broil does 1200 damage (which is heavily less than it actually would.). If you cast 1 broil per minute that's 20 dps. If you cast 1 broil per 4 minutes thats 5 dps.

So basically your ~5dps more is worth 1 broil every 4 minutes by a scholar that isn't even geared properly. Have fun with your slaying accessories.

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Originally Posted by Adera

Using best slaying over worst fending you cain about 5,22 AP from right side gear. Let's assume you have 900AP. 5,22/900 = 0,0058 = 0,58% more. So You'll effectively gain give or take 0,6% personal dps. Let's say you do 800 dps with with full fending. After the switch you will do 1,0058 x 800dps. = 804,6 . So that is 4,6 dps more.

Now let's say a single broil does 1200 damage (which is heavily less than it actually would.). If you cast 1 broil per minute that's 20 dps. If you cast 1 broil per 4 minutes thats 5 dps.

So basically your ~5dps more is worth 1 broil every 4 minutes by a scholar that isn't even geared properly. Have fun with your slaying accessories.

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These are correct numbers.

Let's go back and read the previous posts and pretend it's not about Attack Power, but the overall effectiveness of the critical hit rate secondary stat on the tank's abilities like it was stated in them?

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Let's go back and read the previous posts and pretend it's not about Attack Power, but the overall effectiveness of the critical hit rate secondary stat on the tank's abilities like it was stated in them?

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In which you are trading said health for a slightly higher chance to crit Equilibrium.

Yes. About 2460 HP for a crazy amount of critical hit rate, because 2460 HP is not going to make or break anyone with an item level over 200 and HP over 23000; it's okay to min-max towards critical strike and not push towards 25,000 HP. That will come eventually, and not be needed as a buffer.

I think there's diminishing return when stacking crit, my SMN used to have about 800 crits but rarely procs, about the same when my crits was about 550 - 600.

Dang can't edit on phone. Which is now I rather be stacking spell speed now on SMN which contributes to my actual dps rather than stacking a bunch of useless amount of crit.

The problem is this: You will never know the situation where that 2300 health may come in handy either because you miss a stun, you get hit from an AoE you couldn't avoid for x reason or for any other part.

The x amount of % that adding strength over vitality in sacrifice to your health pool really doesn't matter if you die. People may not think an extra 2k health is good, but to me, it's an extra cushion that could let me survive a big blast that normally I wouldn't survive due to tank buster + extra hit at the end.

I'm still not buying the whole STR > VIT argument right now in 3.2. Sure, one can squeeze out more DPS by adding strength gear, but the minute increase in DPS is negligible. It really is.

I'm still not convinced one should go Strength after meeting bare minimum HP thresholds to survive the hardest hits. I never have. There's too many possibilities that I splat because of x reason. I wanna remove said reason to exist, so I maximize my living.

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

I'm still not buying the whole STR > VIT argument right now in 3.2. Sure, one can squeeze out more DPS by adding strength gear, but the minute increase in DPS is negligible. It really is.
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You don't have to because VIT is better due to it seemingly having the same weight as STR now and the added bonus of granting HP. The reason you'd want to avoid VIT accessories due to them normally having Parry and Accuracy, mainly parry. As parry is lack luster and accuracy is useless after you hit the cap for that particular fight. -- This is from a DPS focus by the way.

With that said. Can probably get the 220 crafted accessories and throw on STR in the 100% portion and choose your secondaries if you want to max out your DPS potential. Haven't played around with Alexander Savage yet, but I'm not over geared for Seph EX normally am left standing with about 7-13k after each tank buster, assuming I'm at full health. Not 100% sure about just throwing on all Crit though.

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Originally Posted by Seku

You don't have to because VIT is better due to it seemingly having the same weight as STR now and the added bonus of granting HP. The reason you'd want to avoid VIT accessories due to them normally having Parry and Accuracy, mainly parry. As parry is lack luster and accuracy is useless after you hit the cap for that particular fight. -- This is from a DPS focus by the way.

With that said. Can probably get the 220 crafted accessories and throw on STR in the 100% portion and choose your secondaries if you want to max out your DPS potential. Haven't played around with Alexander Savage yet, but I'm not over geared for Seph EX normally am left standing with about 7-13k after each tank buster, assuming I'm at full health. Not 100% sure about just throwing on all Crit though.

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Yeah if you are planning on MIN/MAX'ing, you wanna reduce the amount of wasted stats like Parry and add more stats like Crit..To me, it might add a bit more damage to your life, but I'm not MIN/MAXing because I'm simply not doing Savage mode content.

I think my worry about these threads is that new people who tank come in and read this stuff about how people are still using strength accs and think "Oh, ok, i should get str accs cause they are better itemized" when truth be told, if you're not doing Savage, going full Fending through Lore tomes is just fine. Even if you went Lore with +Parry and added STR/Crit onto the ACCs, you'd still most likely be able to do all the fights just fine.

Just gotta be careful about what information is out there and what kind of threads we create when this is supposed to be the forums for tanks to come look at info. The title is a bit skewed in perception when in fact, you don't really see it 'that' often anymore in 3.2

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I think there's diminishing return when stacking crit, my SMN used to have about 800 crits but rarely procs, about the same when my crits was about 550 - 600.

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In Dc universe online, crit was divided into two categories: Crit chance (critical hits occur more often) and Crit magnitude ( critical hits did more damage.)

I believe that crit in our game was changed such that everyone has a base crit rate and any additional crit from gear/abilities/melds will only raise the magnitude, not the chance.

So your summoner still has 20% crit rate ( I don't know the number, just making something up) but if you were to stack crit, instead of your Ruins criting for 700 damage, the ceiling would raise and they would crit for 780 damage.

There is somebody that I came across on IG (If you don't know, there's a huge FFXIV community there!) and he is i219 with all crafted gear, got full fending set, and just melded crit and det onto it, and noticed his DPS was MUCH higher than it was when STR tanking was king. So there's something to think about. Best of both worlds!

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Originally Posted by SeleneFatalis

There is somebody that I came across on IG (If you don't know, there's a huge FFXIV community there!) and he is i219 with all crafted gear, got full fending set, and just melded crit and det onto it, and noticed his DPS was MUCH higher than it was when STR tanking was king. So there's something to think about. Best of both worlds!

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Would kinda makes sense because we couldn't Meld with STR before 3.2, and Det increases damage and healing at a flat rate. So the damage, at some point, would spike higher than what we were doing as STR tanks.

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Originally Posted by SeleneFatalis

There is somebody that I came across on IG

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What does IG mean?