Wasn't new Savage supposed to be easier than first?

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

I don't monitor new reddit threads every second.
Grats to Elysium, but 3 days it took them will equal to weeks/months for reguar statics.

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you dont have to check threads that frequently. i myself checked the time when the other poster said it was cleared. just have to not jump to conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You don't win anything, the point is with the way they have been directing the content and the constant obsolete gear trend that "difficulty" between SCoB and FCoB back in 2.5 or whatever isn't the same as 3.2. That claim that they made about A5-8 would fall between the two former raid difficulties was 100% false from the get go.

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Or you could just not make assumptions about things that you know nothing about... because clearly the OP jumped the gun and you jumped on his bandwagon just as fast as anyone white knighted.

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Originally Posted by LionFranco

Or you could just not make assumptions about things that you know nothing about... because clearly the OP jumped the gun and you jumped on his bandwagon just as fast as anyone white knighted.

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Or you could follow your own suggestions about not knowing whether or not someone attempted the content with a raid group.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

I don't monitor new reddit threads every second.
Grats to Elysium, but 3 days it took them will equal to weeks/months for reguar statics.

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The 3 days to clear might be highly attributed to the fact that A6 savage is "buggy as shit". I expect they'll be fixing it sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Or you could follow your own suggestions about not knowing whether or not someone attempted the content with a raid group.

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I wonder how people say with a straight face that Savage content should be easier than it is currently. Most of us don't even know whats going on in there and basing it off world first groups, people who excel at taking content down quick, and having that represent the rest of the players. You can only get real data off groups that don't go to these over the top lengths.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

I'm pretty sure most serious progression raiding groups left FFXIV.

Progression raiding isn't really a thing anymore nowadays. Most competitive players are playing the hearthstone or LoL ladder and the days where raiding was a thing (eg from 2006 to 2010) are long gone.

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The raiding scene was actually around and thriving as early as 2000 in EQ days.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...down/?sort=top

A6S is down.

I think you're kinda missing the point of savage....

This isn't normal mode where people can clear it in a day or two.
Quoting Yoshi P here when he said "people should get the mechanics down first"

Once you learn mechanics isn't easier to know when/how you should optimize your DPS?

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Originally Posted by Yawnie

I think you're kinda missing the point of savage....

This isn't normal mode where people can clear it in a day or two.
Quoting Yoshi P here when he said "people should get the mechanics down first"

Once you learn mechanics isn't easier to know when/how you should optimize your DPS?

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Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Weeks of failure/frustration/hating each other for 3 minutes of "Woohoo yay we beat the boss guys"

Whatever floats your boat I guess

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Yep, I'm with you. I think with age I've lost my gaming persistence. Yes, give me hoops to have to jump through to do something, but when it comes to bashing my head against a brick wall I'll pass.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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Most midcore groups are tackling Sephirot EX and getting weekly items, and some still unlocking content. Where are these people who are quitting over raid content that just came out?

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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is it? Because I haven't heard of it.
Also he said "less DPS checks", not "less hard".
They also said that they'll introduce cross server raiding to fix the problem.

I really don't have a problem with things being hard. Gives you something to aim for.

I don't want to be able to do everything the first few days of an update. If it bothers you so much, then don't participate in it. Some people want it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I wonder how people say with a straight face that Savage content should be easier than it is currently. Most of us don't even know whats going on in there and basing it off world first groups, people who excel at taking content down quick, and having that represent the rest of the players. You can only get real data off groups that don't go to these over the top lengths.

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Never stated it should be easier, just the fact that SE claimed that it would fall between the difficulty of SCoB and FCoB. My group never was a world first group at any point in time nor a server first group at any raid. I believe on my server that we only have one server first group and as of last night they haven't cleared A5S where as they cleared A1S the next day upon release.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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Where are these mythical droves of raiders that are unable to find groups so they're switching servers? Cause I mean, this seems like it'd be a pretty asinine time to go server hopping seeing as how quite a few people came back to the game for this patch. Oh right, they're actually just still unlocking content, farming Normal for weekly drops, and learning Sephirot EX. I'm sure some groups are actually in the recruiting stage as well, now that people are back from breaks and such.

The focus is on mechanics, not dps checks. Different type of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Instead of Savage the difficulty should be called "Self-torture mode" cause I don't know how anyone can actually enjoy doing that shit

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People like to challenge themselves.

Do you not understand why people like Dark Souls or Bloodborne either?

Also raiding is a social experience. It's something to do with friends. Don't see what is hard to understand about that.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Where are these mythical droves of raiders that are unable to find groups so they're switching servers? Cause I mean, this seems like it'd be a pretty asinine time to go server hopping seeing as how quite a few people came back to the game for this patch. Oh right, they're actually just still unlocking content, farming Normal for weekly drops, and learning Sephirot EX. I'm sure some groups are actually in the recruiting stage as well, now that people are back from breaks and such.

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Jenova had a few raid groups break up because of A3S that and the fact Jenova has a very tense line drawn between the raiding community and the nonraiding community. A majority of the raiders here don't want to help people learn and when they can't clear or need a sub they get rather vocal and cause fights.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Jenova had a few raid groups break up because of A3S that and the fact Jenova has a very tense line drawn between the raiding community and the nonraiding community. A majority of the raiders here don't want to help people learn and when they can't clear or need a sub they get rather vocal and cause fights.

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That was Gordias. I'm well aware of the problems with Gordias, but OP is insinuating that it's still a problem with Midas.

I don't think enough time has passed to actually determine whether or not it is.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That was Gordias. I'm well aware of the problems with Gordias, but OP is insinuating that it's still a problem with Midas.

I don't think enough time has passed to actually determine whether or not it is.

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I'll give you that it's still very early, yes. But honestly from someone who really doesn't shoot for server/world first clears A5S feels like they didn't attempt to curve the problem they had with Gordias. But only mask it with lesser DPS checks and higher mechanic based fights.

ITT: "my definition of fun is correct and no one else's can possibly be correct"

If A7S isn't cleared by reset after next you may have a point or something. Until then we are only on the fourth day, if anything it would be considered to easy most likely if it was cleared by this point. Though if A6S is actually buggy then yeah needs to be fixed.

This is what should have happened in Gordias. Part of A3S' issues was the sheer lack of a difficulty curve. You went from a challenge to a sudden insurmountable wall. Lucrezia and Elysium will probably have it down by sometime next week, which is a huge step up from the five weeks it took for them to clear Gordias.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Instead of Savage the difficulty should be called "Self-torture mode" cause I don't know how anyone can actually enjoy doing that shit

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The same reason Dark Souls and Bloodborne are so popular. People like a challenge. Frankly, I find a lot of games far too easy nowadays. Things like this are nice for those who want it.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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yes... the same thing happening again... on the 4th day of brand new content :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Weeks of failure/frustration/hating each other for 3 minutes of "Woohoo yay we beat the boss guys"

Whatever floats your boat I guess

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4 days is not weeks

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Quoting Yoshi P he said the first Savage was too hard which had grave consequeinces like people forced to switch servers because they couldn't find a group to clear it on their server. And we see now the same thing happening again.

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he meaned the dps checks.
Do people now fail the dps checks or the mechanics in the new savage?

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I'll give you that it's still very early, yes. But honestly from someone who really doesn't shoot for server/world first clears A5S feels like they didn't attempt to curve the problem they had with Gordias. But only mask it with lesser DPS checks and higher mechanic based fights.

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sooo it's actually how Savage raiding is supposed to be? People are not penalized for going non meta groups and taking a paladin main tank, or an astrologian off healer, but the fights are sufficiently challenging to keep the players engaged?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The same reason Dark Souls and Bloodborne are so popular. People like a challenge. Frankly, I find a lot of games far too easy nowadays. Things like this are nice for those who want it.

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I didn't find Bloodborne that hard, minus the out of whack camera and bosses that were too big and made said camera issues even worse.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I'll give you that it's still very early, yes. But honestly from someone who really doesn't shoot for server/world first clears A5S feels like they didn't attempt to curve the problem they had with Gordias. But only mask it with lesser DPS checks and higher mechanic based fights.

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Uhh. But... the problem with Gordias was hellishly steep DPS checks and boring mechanics?

I don't follow. ._.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The same reason Dark Souls and Bloodborne are so popular. People like a challenge. Frankly, I find a lot of games far too easy nowadays. Things like this are nice for those who want it.

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Can't say I've ever been stuck on a boss longer than a few hours in Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1/2 or Bloodborne, the games really aren't hard and aren't locked behind artificial checks either. Got the boss moveset down? Congratulations, you can clear it while naked with a ladle.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is what should have happened in Gordias. Part of A3S' issues was the sheer lack of a difficulty curve. You went from a challenge to a sudden insurmountable wall. Lucrezia and Elysium will probably have it down by sometime next week, which is a huge step up from the five weeks it took for them to clear Gordias.

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Lucrezia's not in the race; their raid group broke up over a month ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...rezia_is_over/

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Uhh. But... the problem with Gordias was hellishly steep DPS checks and boring mechanics?

I don't follow. ._.

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A5S feels like it was intended to be in Gordias in my opinion, we got spike bomb phase and that was it so I cant tell exactly how much the fight is different, wiped around 53%. But overall the mechanics were just as boring as A1-4 and it felt like the damage we were doing was less noticeable. While that could be due to us being between 205-208. From my own personal feelings and experience had I not known A5S was in a different raid then A1-4 you would have fooled me.

Guys, look at the OP. You've all been successfully trolled. Congrats.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

A1 and A2 were cleared Day 1 with A3/4 being massive gear/time wall for most of statics which even led to the official apologize from developers.
But now top groups like Lucrezia and Elysium can't even come close to clearing A6S for days in full i220+ pentamelded, which equals to i240 and weeks of progression for regular statics who don't have perfect skill level and play 15 hours per day.
Do we have a raid designed for 1% of most hardcore raiders... again?

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Pentamelded 220 does not equal 240 you are missing out on so many main stats.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Weeks of failure/frustration/hating each other for 3 minutes of "Woohoo yay we beat the boss guys"

Whatever floats your boat I guess

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If thats what you think about raiding then sorry, but you're not made for raiding.

This is my point of view from a semi-HC progression raider.

It's day 4, my group's cleared A5S yesterday and we snatched ourselves all our Sephirot weapons tonight.
Most of our wipes today in Sephirot were caused by our members goofying around and laughing.
Heck, as a BLM Raider using my MNK rotation was pretty damn challenging when I was crying of laughter from Phase 1 to halfway through Final Phase.
Tomorrow, we're going to A6S for pretty much all day and I expect it to be loads of fun.

So... as most opinions seem rather biased from outside impressions, have this point of view from me.
Midas Savage so far (!) IS EASIER than Gordias. No if's and buts, no trick questions.
"But Kanri, why do the world prog groups take longer to clear it then?"

Simple, all other raids so far operated on a basis of "Deal with simple mechanics, while breaking through very high DPS walls".
And with the right people thats actually really straight forward to do.
The puzzle is pretty limited and straight forward and those group's players are a pinnacle in mastering their jobs damage outputs.

With Midas, it's different. The puzzle is now consisting of a tenfold more pieces and is therefore harder to figure out by trial and error.
You need to see different phase's pieces and then try to put together the big picture, which takes smart thinking but more than anything: time.

A6S from what I have seen throws a lot of mechanics at you in very short order that have to be handled delicately and it takes time to put all the pieces
together just talking about mechanics, then all of your pieces have to fit together so well that you meet the overall enrage timer, which means some strategies that might've worked
prior will now fall apart and you need a new approach - and if the claim of Elysium is true that there's a bug making 7 minute pulls worthless, and I have no reason to doubt their legitimacy,
then that expands the time needed to clear it (sadly artificially) even more.

People are going to hate me for this but: This game needs challenging content like this, but the general consensus needs to open their mindset to the intention, otherwise the game will grow immensely shallow very soon.
Taking the fights down in short order like this is effort, growing a great team mentality and ability is a massive endeavour.
And the people that go these extra miles are rewarded appropriately, with reputation and early access to the endgame gear.
And the people that do not want to go there need to learn to live with the consequence that the endgame gear will find it's way to them later. And this is absolutely fair. You fight for the early access.
The other group of people get weekly high item level gear which will more and more eliviate the challenge to deal with the fights, and things become more and more possible if people are adamant about it.

The only thing I wish is that unlocking the 10 clears achievement would dynamically remove the lockout of the dungeon, so even people that clear it relatively late can at least deck themselves after their victory.

...apologize if my logic isnt exactly coherent, I'm writing this at 3 AM-ish.

Kanri.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Raiding would be a lot better if they would just RESET COOLDOWN ON WIPE. please give my thread on the subject a like and comment. I want to raid again but the waiting between so many deaths is really really bad for the game in my opinion.

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Not exactly...It gives time for people to rethink a strategy in the learning stages of any raid.

The way I see it, these types of raids are supposed to be this way. They are indeed aimed at the more hardcore. Perhaps they intended on it being slightly easier and more accessible to new comers but if they made it too easy, they would be discounting the population that enjoys the harder content, which while smaller than the general population, they serve a very valuable purpose in the game.

Games like this are supported heavily by the progression system. When the content is harder, it makes it all the more satisfying to stand out in populated cities decked out in your end game gear AND more importantly, it gets other players to strive for that level so they can experience that feeling too. Not all reach that point, but if that were the case, the desire to do so would diminish and so would the subscriptions.

Aside from all this non sense though, there is plenty of other stuff to do in the game aside from this end game stuff and there are plenty of players leveling alt classes to keep this other content relevant. (Mostly XD)

Also SE has done a decent job at making end gear more attainable near release of their next patch so players can catch up and be ready for the new stuff.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFox

Finally overcoming a major obstacle in a game after a few hours? Yeah, that's definitely rewarding and can be a lot of fun.

But weeks? That's ridiculous and I know a lot of people aren't doing it for fun, which is what a gaming is supposed to be about. Hardcore raiding is toxic in a lot of ways.

But don't be so thinskinned it's just one guy's opinion.

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Why do you think the majority of hardcore raiders still play this game? Something challenging that takes weeks to clear is what makes any MMO game good.
If it were easy, I wouldn't see people playing this game as it would just be faceroll after faceroll content.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

When majority of raid population is left with 1-2 fights for 6 months AGAIN, it doesn't do well for a game and sub numbers.

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You are comparing the 99% of players to the elite hardcore 1% of raiders that can clear content in a matter of days to determine how hard Midas is.
I don't think your argument is justifiable and the statistic doesn't make sense to compare. It's only been a few days. People are still like ilvl212 or whatever...
The ilvl jump of 30 levels is also an extremely marginal increase in numbers. We are jumping to conclusions a far to early to even judge the content.

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Originally Posted by LionFranco

Dude...we are 4 days into the new patch, perhaps instead of acting like it can't be done, perhaps be a little more patient as people...LEARN THE FIGHTS. No one is going to be an expert in 4 days...

Seriously...

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I agreed 99%.

The other 1% is that people are not being consistent, meaning instead of following guides, they want to do their own thing. Everyone forget that this patch is about Mechanics > DPS.

In the normal modes of Midas, with the exception of A8, people are still trying to burn everything down with bad positioning. I even seen a few healers trying to focus dps'ing Sephirot. I feel like people need to know the mechanics, THEN they can break the strats when we get higher iLvs, because right now, iLv205-209 ain't cutting it.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Welp, time to mark off "white knight" on my Raid Thread Bingo Card.

If I get "toxic" "elitist" and "trash" I'll win a free banana.

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I hope this doesn't devolve into a "Toxic" discussion and I am by no means an "Elitist". I still haven't cleared Coil 6-13 or even stepped foot into Alex Savage (I probably couldn't get past the "Trash"). I don't even have anything to contribute to this discussion, I just wanted to help Ashkendor win that banana.