VIT vs. STR 3.2

So basically vit all the way? Cuz we can't meld str into vit accessories and vice versa anymore?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ed3891

WAR got screwed over by this patch in a big, big way. I don't understand how people could fail to realize that our high damage output directly translated to the restoration of lost health, as compensation for our overall lower defense. It's not the 7-8k Fell Cleaves I'm going to miss; it's the 3-4k Inner Beasts and 1k Storm's Path that kept me standing.

Rather than refine DRK and PLD to operate in their areas as well as WAR previously did, they decided to beat us down.

Long and short of it is, I'm switching over to SMN as my main.

---

Exceeeeeept that our defense was not by any means inferior and is arguably superior.
All that extra healing really ended up as overhealing and isn't part of our rotation to surviving the tankbuster(s). It was just a nice extra that happened to scale really well with our damage. I think it's purpose was to make up for the -5% healing disparity in Defiance with ShO/Grit(?)

Ok so I'm a fairly new tank with PLD being my highest at 51 right now so obviously I can't comment on end game yet....however I don't get all the complaining here. When I want to play my tank the point is that I am tanking. IMO the DPS we do is just a bonus and a tool to keep the monsters attacking me instead of the party so I don't get why people are getting so upset over a DPS loss. Honestly reading the forums before the 3.2 str/vit changes were announced kind of put me off trying to tank. Reading that you want to avoid the main tank stat and that using the stance designed for tanking is actually bad in many cases just really unmotivated me. It wasn't until they released the 3.2 changes that I really focused on leveling my tank.

Seems like I'm in the vast minority, on these forums anyways, but I just don't get why people who care about dps #s wouldn't just play a dps class.

It's because basically what we're looking at here is pvp being harder, solo content being harder, and less damage = less aggro. Remember how hard it was to keep aggro on your gladiator from 15 to 40? Just imagine with damage being lowered how bad the new tanks will have it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

It's because basically what we're looking at here is pvp being harder, solo content being harder, and less damage = less aggro. Remember how hard it was to keep aggro on your gladiator from 15 to 40? Just imagine with damage being lowered how bad the new tanks will have it.

---

Gladiators and Paladin forever flashing until Shield Oath?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

It's because basically what we're looking at here is pvp being harder, solo content being harder, and less damage = less aggro. Remember how hard it was to keep aggro on your gladiator from 15 to 40? Just imagine with damage being lowered how bad the new tanks will have it.

---

That's true about solo content (longer at least if not harder) and PvP, but for group content SE did adjust enmity to compensate so (hopefully) that's taken care of already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

It's because basically what we're looking at here is pvp being harder, solo content being harder, and less damage = less aggro. Remember how hard it was to keep aggro on your gladiator from 15 to 40? Just imagine with damage being lowered how bad the new tanks will have it.

---

Frankly no, aggro hasn't really been an issue IMO once I learned the dungeon and patrol routes and such....anyways I doubt the small boost to dmg you get at lvl 40 from whatever str you have managed to scrape together will make much of a difference for new tanks. I didn't even start adding my bonus points to str until 40 anyways since I was "rebelling" against the meta ;).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nutz

That's true about solo content (longer at least if not harder) and PvP, but for group content SE did adjust enmity to compensate so (hopefully) that's taken care of already.

---

Yes but they only increased enmity modifiers in tank stance and if savage blade aggro increase is only as high as the other tanks second hit in their combo and now with the damage nerf wouldn't it end up being worse? I have not tried a dungeon on my alt yet to see if it is harder or not but I will say when I did tam-tara regular on my i201 warr with full vit it seemed like I didn't have as much of an aggro lead as I used to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronin_cse

Frankly no, aggro hasn't really been an issue IMO once I learned the dungeon and patrol routes and such....anyways I doubt the small boost to dmg you get at lvl 40 from whatever str you have managed to scrape together will make much of a difference for new tanks. I didn't even start adding my bonus points to str until 40 anyways since I was "rebelling" against the meta ;).

---

Then you never played with a good thaumaturge who can rip hate off you before you could even blink. It's unfair how easy they can rip hate at low level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

Then you never played with a good thaumaturge who can rip hate off you before you could even blink. It's unfair how easy they can rip hate at low level.

---

Having leveled gladiator/paladin on two characters now, especially at lower levels, between aoe and single target threat it is almost entirely about keeping your gear up to date. i've done countless dungeons at lower levels on that class with a broad spectrum of players and never encountered this problem. perhaps you are talking about when the game first came out?

As far as the damage nerf goes too I forgot to mention marauder didn't get any enmity changes nor did dark knight other than tank stances so wouldn't doing less damage without tank stance modifiers make low level tanking harder? I'm just wondering thoughts or experiences on this would be, because imo low level tanking is hard enough on new people, no wonder there's hardly any tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

Then you never played with a good thaumaturge who can rip hate off you before you could even blink. It's unfair how easy they can rip hate at low level.

---

Sure that happens, but the tiny amount of dmg I would have gotten from str wouldn't make a difference. You just pop a taunt and get the threat back, or you ignore it because it just has a sliver of health left anyways. That situation won't change post 3.2 and might even be better because lower lvl tanks probably have more vit from their quest gear and such anyways, and totally new players wouldn't intuitively use a stat that isn't their main stat anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Having leveled gladiator/paladin on two characters now, especially at lower levels, between aoe and single target threat it is almost entirely about keeping your gear up to date. i've done countless dungeons at lower levels on that class with a broad spectrum of players and never encountered this problem. perhaps you are talking about when the game first came out?

---

No I recently leveled on an alt in halatali having the best gear possible for my level full str (before 3.2) and I couldn't hardly keep hate on mobs that my i190+ black mage friend would hit. This would only happen with the first mob of a group or if another wandering mob would come by and she attacked it first (me without having provoke yet too)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronin_cse

Sure that happens, but the tiny amount of dmg I would have gotten from str wouldn't make a difference. You just pop a taunt and get the threat back, or you ignore it because it just has a sliver of health left anyways. That situation won't change post 3.2 and might even be better because lower lvl tanks probably have more vit from their quest gear and such anyways, and totally new players wouldn't intuitively use a stat that isn't their main stat anyways.

---

That's very true, when I first heard "go str instead" I as like WHAAA :@ lol but I believe there's posts on here too saying lvl 60 tanks are even having a harder time keeping single target aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

That's very true, when I first heard "go str instead" I as like WHAAA :@ lol but I believe there's posts on here too saying lvl 60 tanks are even having a harder time keeping single target aggro.

---

Most of the one's I have read so far were from people still trying to tank in dps stance with a couple exceptions.

Plus PLDs got enmity buffs too so I am satisfied :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronin_cse

Frankly no, aggro hasn't really been an issue IMO once I learned the dungeon and patrol routes and such....anyways I doubt the small boost to dmg you get at lvl 40 from whatever str you have managed to scrape together will make much of a difference for new tanks. I didn't even start adding my bonus points to str until 40 anyways since I was "rebelling" against the meta ;).

---

I will say, as someone who is fine with this change, pre-50 content wise, you have very little overall differences in your VIT to STR stats. Your accessories were only giving you a boost of like, 6 in whatever stat it was allocating in. At level 50 with the higher item level gear is where you could finally start to see the greater effects of vit vs. str gear. At level 60, it was night and day.

I did run Ex roulette with my 210 vit tank and had much more trouble holding hate than usual than I did with my 200 str tank. Granted, I could grab right back, but my rotation had to be changed to compensate. Especially for big AoE hitters like BLM's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malicewolf

I will say, as someone who is fine with this change, pre-50 content wise, you have very little overall differences in your VIT to STR stats. Your accessories were only giving you a boost of like, 6 in whatever stat it was allocating in. At level 50 with the higher item level gear is where you could finally start to see the greater effects of vit vs. str gear. At level 60, it was night and day.

I did run Ex roulette with my 210 vit tank and had much more trouble holding hate than usual than I did with my 200 str tank. Granted, I could grab right back, but my rotation had to be changed to compensate. Especially for big AoE hitters like BLM's.

---

This is why I was wondering. My 205 summoner was pulling aggro on my friend's 207 dark who was spamming unleash and abyssal drain like crazy.

Edit: I like the idea of being a real tank now via more HP and whatnot. What I'm worried about is will it now be harder to keep aggro? I don't want to have to work 20x harder just because they changed str and vit :c

may be a wrench in the works but... what if vit influences more than just flat AP? like flash being boosted by str.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

may be a wrench in the works but... what if vit influences more than just flat AP? like flash being boosted by str.

---

... You are confusing things. Flash was and still is influenced by Attack Power. Strength boosted Flash because it boosts AP and AP influences the amount of enmity Flash generates.

But still for some reason [Slaying] > [Fending] in terms of DPS. Just a little better, like 5%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LinarUnders

But still for some reason [Slaying] > [Fending] in terms of DPS. Just a little better, like 5%.

---

Well, I mean... shouldn't that kind of be the case anyways? It's called slaying for a reason. It helps you kill better. The difference here is that instead of it boosting you to pretty much be on par with a DPS, it gives you a "slight" edge on your strength at the cost of hp.

Except, now, instead of it being, "hey! get 500 more DPS by putting all STR gear! We don't need that extra HP!" it's become, "hey! You can get like, 50 more DPS by putting on all STR gear and lose out on thousands of hp in the process."
You know... kind of like what a tank role should be. Yes, it was cool that tanks could really dish out the damage, but I have seen a LOT of people telling tanks that they should be "DPS'ing in attack stance" and calling those in tank stance noobs... Once again, to be able to maximize your role is one thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

Then you never played with a good thaumaturge who can rip hate off you before you could even blink. It's unfair how easy they can rip hate at low level.

---

Bards too. Bards at 30 are REALLY strong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Maybe you shouldn't be in DPS stance when you're tanking.

---

I think you forgot to read the part when I said "I was in tanking stance" I was only WARNING to any tank that TRIES to tank in dps stance, they will lose hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

Exceeeeeept that our defense was not by any means inferior and is arguably superior.
All that extra healing really ended up as overhealing and isn't part of our rotation to surviving the tankbuster(s). It was just a nice extra that happened to scale really well with our damage. I think it's purpose was to make up for the -5% healing disparity in Defiance with ShO/Grit(?)

---

Equilibrium when used correctly doesn't over heal and was also part of surviving tank busters.

Being able to line CDs up, Deliverance through a tank buster while using Holmgang, then landing a Berserked 15k Equilbrium + a 3k Second Wind to instantly negate the risk of dying to successive damage with no healer assistance was a thing. Your WHM can save their Benediction for the DRK's Living Dead. As a tank, your timing with instant healers will be much better than most healers because you are much more aware of your individual HP fluctuation. Being able to stay in Deliverance until the last second, Defiance, IB and Equilbrium to top yourself up the split second before a TB hit (when your healer is likely already pre-casting a heal to land after the TB hit) is part of surviving a TB and not prone to over heal.

Blood Bath is generally really ineffcient healing but Equilbrium was not. There is a reason a lot of top raiders think it is the best skill WAR has.

Anyways, I think we are going to need to wait until we actually have i220+ accessories slotted with a grade V STR or VIT materia to judge the actual impact of the 3.2 nerf. As is, the right sides we're using are going to have less damage contribution because of how AP was split between STR and VIT. We're going to need to wait until we can actually get closer to the maximized STR / VIT total of 3.2 before judging the overall nerf.

Also, something else people are forgetting is that because the AP was split between STR and VIT, 1 point of STR or VIT is less than half of the stat weight main stat used to be relative to our secondaries. What that means is that while the gap in STR / VIT between slaying / fending right sides will increase with ilevel, 40 points of crit is no longer equal to ~6 points of mainstat -- it's now equivalent to much more. So yea... STR right sides are not dead at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian_

Equilibrium when used correctly doesn't over heal and was also part of surviving tank busters. Being able to line CDs up, Deliverance through a tank buster while using Holmgang, then landing a Berserked 15k Equilbrium + a 3k Second Wind to instantly negate the risk of dying to successive damage with no healer assistance was a thing. Your WHM can save their Benediction for the DRK's Living Dead. As a tank, your timing with instant healers will be much better than most healers because you are much more aware of your individual HP fluctuation. Being able to stay in Deliverance until the last second, Defiance, IB and Equilbrium to top yourself up the split second before a TB hit (when your healer is likely already pre-casting a heal to land after the TB hit) is part of surviving a TB and not prone to over heal.

Blood Bath is generally really ineffcient healing but Equilbrium was not. There is a reason a lot of top raiders think it is the best skill WAR has.

Anyways, I think we are going to need to wait until we actually have i220+ accessories slotted with a grade V STR or VIT materia to judge the actual impact of the 3.2 nerf. As is, the right sides we're using are going to have less damage contribution because of how AP was split between STR and VIT. We're going to need to wait until we can actually get closer to the maximized STR / VIT total of 3.2 before judging the overall nerf.

Also, something else people are forgetting is that because the AP was split between STR and VIT, 1 point of STR or VIT is less than half of the stat weight main stat used to be relative to our secondaries. What that means is that while the gap in STR / VIT between slaying / fending right sides will increase with ilevel, 40 points of crit is no longer equal to ~6 points of mainstat -- it's now equivalent to much more. So yea... STR right sides are not dead at all.

---

Equilibrium is pretty good when I need that heal, but naturally doing so would require being locked into Defiance which negates the purpose of Holmgang on a TB instead of using the wide arsenal of cooldowns available (Inner Beast itself including). It's not to say it wasn't a viable method of survival. My personal experience though whenever I get an opportunity to use it it was often accompanied by a heal regardless and came up as 12K when I was full. Much sad.

The issue now is people are making it out to be worse than it is. Heals are -20% less effective than they were before but still are a considerable 80% of what they were. The only problem is that there is a much larger HP pool to cure through so the percentage of HP healed will appear smaller.
If the damage scales up with the new HP threshold even the previous heal amount would not have matched it as well as it did prior.

Case and point I still heal for 2.2 and crit for 3.5k heal with IB under Berserk. But then again I have no clue how much I healed before because I never had a reason to Defiance for prolonged periods of time past the opener :^)

Old i150 Penta melds > i210 Fending and slaying.( In terms of overall attack power. )swapping out slots as you get i220 pieces and melding STR,CRIT Det where Applicable

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by repoe

Old i150 Penta melds > i210 Fending and slaying.( In terms of overall attack power. )swapping out slots as you get i220 pieces and melding STR,CRIT Det where Applicable

---

I wouldn't suggest melding Str just yet, since there miiight be more changes to values coming in upcoming patches, and also you get pretty much the same value out of Vit than you get with Str. If Yoshi P decides he wants to make Vit contribute .5 and Str .4 you're pretty much screwed, and it's not likely to be the other way around since Str tanks was what they were trying to avoid.

Why would he be screwed? On a 0.5 to 0.4 split STR would still be the best meld for the 100% slots by far.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression from looking at the new tome equipment that the stat increase from 210 to 230 or 240 didn't seem too big compared to other times. I was talking with some buddies that maybe they intentionally didn't make the main stat cap out so that people would be forced to meld the gear's main stat materia onto the available slots to compensate for this "loss", thus making materia and crafters more useful in a more demanding way. I should have explained that beforehand in my previous post. This was all theory, though, since neither of us has been arsed to get new equipment yet because we've been busy.

Supposedly you can't meld main stats onto gear that already has that main stat on it. So you aren't supposed to be able to on left side gear.