DPS: Why is it so dang taboo?

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

your unique option is to deal with it, even if the one in your party is probably just doing auto-attacks and random things afking while you do the carry for his roulette.

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Just kick without saying anything, if you in the unlikely case get questioned by a GM cite playstyle differences.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

The problem stems from several sources. We currently live in the society of the participation trophy. Self esteem is considered more important than hard work so everyone gets a prize. People are coddled from a young age and any form of criticism, whether its constructive or not, is immediately evil. Our society's overblown focus on political correctness has demonized anything that could possibly be construed as slightly negative. Everything must sound like a my little pony commercial or you're a hateful bully that can't be tolerated.

Kosmos also had it right with the single player game mentality. Games have evolved into glorified button-mashers. Strategy and practice is a thing of the past. If it weren't for games like dark souls, people who like to be challenged would have no outlet.

All of these things compiled lead to one inevitable outcome: butthurt.

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Yeah, I bet you just run savage coil with minimum ilvl with new players blind all the time, huh? Y'know, since challenge is so important to you.

I also find it ludicrous how hard you work to strawman everyone that doesn't agree with you. The "so PC, so PC!!!!" crowd always does this. You work as hard as you can to demonize people not wanting others to be jerks to them and dress it up as being hypersensitive or overly politically correct when really, most people would just prefer game interactions to be civil. If someone's DPS is subpar, there are ways to say it other than "you suck, scrub" or worse. That you throw around "butthurt" and "super casual" give me a good idea what kind of interactions you likely have. :/

EDIT: whoops, typo

Like others have said, it's really in how you present the constructive criticism. Let's give two examples:

Unhelpful: "DPS is SLOOOOOW! Step it up, and git gud."
Helpful: "Hey, how's it going? I noticed you weren't using Heavy Thrust. If you work it into your Rotation, you'll find you deal much more damage. Just some advice."

You'll notice that the first comment doesn't actually do anything to improve the poor DPS player. It just tells them "step it up". If you don't understand your rotation...well, telling them "Do more damage" doesn't really do anything. If you don't know how to deal more damage, all it will do is irritate the player. If you give some friendly advice, in a polite manner, it tends to work much better. It also really helps if you ask if they want any advice before just declaring it. Just a simple "Can I give you some advice?" can do wonders.

On the "Political correctness" thing, there is a massive difference between being oversensitive, and someone legitimately being rude. Saying "Git Gud or GTFO" is just rude, and doesn't really improve anything. Saying "Hello, Fire spells deal much more damage than Ice spells, and Black Mages are intended to switch between the two" is a much better, more helpful piece of advice. If the player is a jerk about the advice, well, then the best option is to honestly just be quiet, deal with the slow run and go on with your day. One slow run is better than arguing through a whole dungeon.

*grabs popcorn* another thread about how you just cant possibly improve your DPS without 3rd party apps.

I just keep quiet when people are facerolling the keyboard. It's actually quite amusing, in its own sad little way, when someone with better gear is doing -300 to -600 dps less than you. I like having people like that around, actually, because it reminds me I'll never be that bad.

It doesn't matter if you're kind or abusive. It's different strokes of different folks. People will get offended at anything.

I don't parse myself, but BisEX was kind enough to give me a visual demonstration of how bad DF DPS are. On the twin mobs, my friend and I (both DPS) were lucky enough to both get the same debuff twice in a row. We finished our mob and turned to the other. It was at 70%. 70% FULL.

I don't get why YoshiP is resistant to making S3 an actual requirement. There's no elitism in a simple binary between "can do the absolute minimum to carry their own weight" and "can't." If you try S3 and can't do it, you shouldn't be trying to join the duty yet, and lying in PF about it to bait a carry is a serious abuse of other people's time and should be bannable.

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Originally Posted by melisande

*grabs popcorn* another thread about how you just cant possibly improve your DPS without 3rd party apps.

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Or the reading comprehension of a 6 year old.

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Originally Posted by Callback

I don't get why YoshiP is resistant to making S3 an actual requirement. There's no elitism in a simple binary between "can do the absolute minimum to carry their own weight" and "can't." If you try S3 and can't do it, you shouldn't be trying to join the duty yet, and lying in PF about it to bait a carry is a serious abuse of other people's time and should be bannable.

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Honestly, Stone, Sky and Sea does very little to alter the current state of the game, other than to give players who don't use 3rd party applications an abstract idea of their performance. As for myself, I'd rather just leave a PF group that's underperforming than try to ostracize a player that may be uninformed or ignorant about their theoretical potential. If a player wants to get better, they'll put the effort in to do so.

Outside of savage and maybe thordan no reason for anyone to "gitgud" cuz theres no challenge. Sad day when top 2 dps in Void ark are two tanks and one of them is MT.
Its not often you see tanks or healers complain about having to do there job. God forbid theres a dps check tho all hell breaks loose

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Because most of the game doesn't require anyone to "step it up". And because many of the people who think it's their duty to tell someone to "step it up" are not, let's put this delicately, even vaguely diplomatic in their manner of the telling.

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To be fair, there is no nice way of telling someone that they're not performing up to expectations. Every criticism is treated as a personal attack, and they will lash out at you for suggesting they could do any wrong.

I once suggested to a SMN that they should cast Ruin as a filler instead of just standing around waiting for their dots to expire, and that maybe he should cast ruin 3 when he used Dreadwyrm Trance (rather than just blowing deathflare off cd), which prompted a string of insults in my direction. They tried to tell me i was a terrible healer because everyone was not topped off all the time. Seeing how things had resorted to ad-hominem attacks, i decied to stop playing nicely and retorted, "well everyone would be nice and full if i didn't have to pick up the slack in dps."

That did it for him, he ran and facepulled the boss and bailed (and it was the fractal continuum boss so it was not possible to down it without the extra dps. Not that we were downing it before that anyway.

The moral of this story is that people hate to be criticized for their benefit.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Snip for mobile.

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i completely empathize with your experience. But the problem is that this is a game, and min/maxing isn't considered fun for a lot of players, even if it's something as simple as keeping your GCD rolling.

Players that want to compete and better themselves will put in the effort to do so. The other players merely want the Final Fantasy experience no matter whether Fractal takes 15 minutes or 55 minutes.

When you tell a summoner that they should use their damn DoTs and spread them, and they fail to do so for the entire dungeon, of course you will dimiss them.

I do try to help out, but when they don't listen, it isn't even about the numbers... You can see even without the numbers whether the person tries or not.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

When you tell a summoner that they should use their damn DoTs and spread them, and they fail to do so for the entire dungeon, of course you will dimiss them.

I do try to help out, but when they don't listen, it isn't even about the numbers... You can see even without the numbers whether the person tries or not.

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This is the primary reason why FFXIV needs an internal feedback loop for DPS. Until there is an objective measure to gauge player growth, we will continue to see people that think spamming ruin is bad because it has a low potency.

Well it is not as bad as when people start insulting you for playing a certain Job....

"Why are you playing a Dragoon? You should play a Monk because they have better DPS and die less."

"Lol You main a Machinist? Bard does far better DPS than that scrub tier job."

"Play another Job! Machinist sucks as a DPS Job and slows the group down with their low dps."

I swear I get more "Play another job" because how people think about Machinist Job that it annoying being one of the few players that actually know how to play a Machinist.

All I can say is....

"A player only does good DPS on those Jobs because they are skilled enough to min/max dps on them."

The other party members did told these people that they're being a A****** and I mostly ignore these people since I know I would run into them once in a while in DF.

Yes there are players with Job Stereotype issues playing this game and are not afraid to show it.

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Originally Posted by tgoodner

Honestly, Stone, Sky and Sea does very little to alter the current state of the game, other than to give players who don't use 3rd party applications an abstract idea of their performance. As for myself, I'd rather just leave a PF group that's underperforming than try to ostracize a player that may be uninformed or ignorant about their theoretical potential. If a player wants to get better, they'll put the effort in to do so.

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There's no ostracizing involved. I'm suggesting that if they can't clear S3 they can't queue at all without a premade who agrees to take them.

You'd rather continue having players lazy players effectively AFK and try to leech carries, forcing you to leave and re-queue wasting more of your time just for another group that's likely the same exact thing, than have a system that actually verifies that everybody you're potentially matched with is at least capable of being an active participant before throwing you into a duty together?

Tell me, what's the difference between that and just removing minimum ilvl requirements as well? A leecher's a leecher whether i200 or i150. If you're so content to just let them invade random parties without contributing, why not let them invade ones above their level too?

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

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Wait was this confirmed that Stone, Sky, Sea were going to be required unlock conditions for duties? The latest interviews with Yoshida seemed to imply that this was NOT the case and that they were purely optional practice tools. In which case the person you are quoting is entirely correct in that they will do very little to alter the status quo of the game.

It might help some players sure, but if they aren't an express requirement for entering a duty (which once again i don't believe that they are) it won't really do much of anything for the players that already think they're "good enough" and just skip it.

From the translated interview:

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Challenging a striking dummy before going into battle in "Stone, Sky, Sea"

What are the conditions to unlock "Stone, Sky, Sea"?

Yoshida: Each item will be unlocked when the corresopnding battle content is opened. The procedure to begin Stone, Sky, Sea itself is very simple. When you talk to the warrior in Idyllshire, he'll inform you that given the difference in players' arms, he's come up with a way for warriors to test their skills against a formidable enemy. From there, you'll exit Idyllshire and follow the navigation tips to the area.

Is the idea that you can use Stone, Sky, Sea as an objective measure for party recruitment?

Yoshida: Since that could lead to selectivity, we won't include that. You could put something like DPS who can clear with more than a few seconds as a comment, but players who look at it would have to assess themselves.

Of course, but they may have had no challenge based on their equipment.

Yoshida: Since the purpose is to become confident with the equipment you have and your current action rotation, there is no item-level sync. For example, if you attempt the extreme Bismarck Stone, Sky, Sea challenge at an average item level of 210 it should be easy. On the other hand, if you try the Alexander Midas Savage challenge with gear from Gordias, most people will find that to be quite tough. Then as you strengthen your equipment, you can come back and try the challenge again to become more confident that you can clear... the content is meant to be used in that way. It's a way to check that your equipment and skill are developing in parallel.

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Original source: Bookwalker Famitsu Weekly item listing (3/3 issue)


Translation source: Yoshida on Patch 3.2 Content - Famitsu Translation

EDIT: Reread, I'm tired you're saying they SHOULD in which case i agree.

DPS = Damage Per Second. Even if they do 100 damage and then sit afk for 100 seconds before doing more damage they have technically done DPS and fulfilled their role. :P Sure it may have been low (1 damage per second) but they did DPS. DPS classes get a free pass because they aren't even technically needed to complete most content. We are a luxury to speed things up even more for you tanks and healers that already get instant queues as opposed to our 30+ minute ones. Then y'all have the nerve to complain when we don't go fast enough for you? Lmao

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

I also find it ludicrous how hard you work to strawman everyone that doesn't disagree with you. The "so PC, so PC!!!!" crowd always does this. You work as hard as you can to demonize people not wanting others to be jerks to them and dress it up as being hypersensitive or overly politically correct when really, most people would just prefer game interactions to be civil. If someone's DPS is subpar, there are ways to say it other than "you suck, scrub" or worse. That you throw around "butthurt" and "super casual" give me a good idea what kind of interactions you likely have. :/

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His wording is pretty harsh but he's not wrong. I try to give constructive advice/criticism when I'm in a position to do so (i.e. when I'm familiar with the class in question) and the reaction to that is still very mixed. You never know if the person is going to take the advice in stride, ignore it completely, or react like I told them to go jump off a cliff. "I know how to play my class, thanks" is one of the more polite "negative" replies I've gotten. "Shut the *&#$ up, you don't pay my sub" is among the ruder ones. Some people just can't handle being told that they could be doing it better, even if you're offering them the means to do so.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

If the player is a jerk about the advice, well, then the best option is to honestly just be quiet, deal with the slow run and go on with your day. One slow run is better than arguing through a whole dungeon.

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I'd rather just kick them and potentially get someone better. Or at least someone with a better attitude.

S3 will never become a PF requirement. Yoshida mentioned in his interview that it's meant for personal use. Although it is a great opportunity for a performance requirement, this unfortunately won't be the reality.

@Callback: It seems like you had a tough time on PF groups in attempt to clear content. I can only speak from personal experience, but if clearing Savage/Extreme primals is a player's goal, they should invest the time and energy in finding quality players that share the same goal. You technically can't invade a PF, as the premise of it is to extend an invitation to players server wide that want to complete content.

Way back when (Six moooooonths soooooo loooong agooooo) I couldn't clear a bismark hard in duty finder, because we couldn't meet the dps check. Flat out. He'd always wipe us out before we could start the second phase because we weren't downing both of the big snake guys in time. It was frustrating as hell.

This story doesn't end with the group mastering the mechanics before the timer ran out and getting a heartwarming win at the last second, thereby proving that perseverance and determination can overcome any obstacle. It ended with pure vitriol and hatred and a lot of finger pointing as each dpser fell on the other ones in a cannibal orgy of blame, each desperately trying to prove for the record that nay, nay, it wasn't they who were lackluster, it was ye. Finally it was a dragoon who got the finger as it were, an cries of booooooot him entered the party chat. And he blew up like Jules in Pulp fiction and basically let everyone know in no uncertain terms that if he were allowed to, he could prove for a fact that everyone else sucked but him. And he left that trial like an old testament prophet leaving Babylon to get mounted by Jackals covered in baby oil or something.

Anyway, he was right, once he took off and got replaced, the dps got even woooorse. It was a friggin horror show was what. I want to say that the other dps fell on their swords in shame, but mostly they just blamed the Astrologian healer.

What a mess.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Mess

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SUCH IRREFUTABLE ATROCITIES SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.

When someone gets wrongly accused because of lack of actual feedback, something needs to be done to remedy this horridly broken system. It's so much better to be hit with the truth and to experience humiliation to spark motivation for improvement than it is to sit in ignorance, stagnating almost indefinitely because our pride will not allow 'subjective' opinion to determine whether or not we need to improve.

Just reading through the thread, I think the OP does have a very valid point. It seems as though if someone tells a tank where to position or when to use a CD, no one bats an eye. Tell a healer to put out DoTs when everyone is healthy, everyone agrees. Tell a DPS to change the rotation... I mean, everyone has had "that tank" or "that healer" that they felt were doing a poor job and feel confident in voicing their concern. Why is it that when a DPS is questioned, it is seen as a personal attack? Very valid issue by OP.

I do not think inserting something along the lines of how the PvP system is now would be a bad idea. After the last boss of an instance is killed, have a scoreboard pop up showing how much damage each player did, how much taken and how much healed. It would allow people to see how the true DPS is, without having to worry about being harassed during the run. Also, I think it would help DPS get more comms as people would get an idea of who was really doing a good job.

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Originally Posted by Fived

Just reading through the thread, I think the OP does have a very valid point. It seems as though if someone tells a tank where to position or when to use a CD, no one bats an eye. Tell a healer to put out DoTs when everyone is healthy, everyone agrees.

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You've got to be kidding with that statment, every time the healer DPS argument flares up the healer forum melts and everyone gets called an elitist Nazi or SJW. As for Tanks, if you've never met a salty one then good luck to ya, but if anyone is going to have a chip on his shoulder it will more often than not be the tank, safe in the knowledge that he's the least likely to get kicked.

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Originally Posted by Fived

It seems as though if someone tells a tank where to position or when to use a CD, no one bats an eye.

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People clearly aren't telling paladins how to tank as they level up, based on my DF experiences with them. I got sick of explaining to paladins in EX roulette long ago about how having the mobs scattered around them:
1 - slowed AoE dps
2 - increased damage they took from lack of parry/block

I just go into 2.x ST rotation autopilot when I get one of those paladins, which at least once a week.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

You've got to be kidding with that statment, every time the healer DPS argument flares up the healer forum melts and everyone gets called an elitist Nazi or SJW. As for Tanks, if you've never met a salty one then good luck to ya, but if anyone is going to have a chip on his shoulder it will more often than not be the tank, safe in the knowledge that he's the least likely to get kicked.

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Well, in defense of salty tanks, we only get that way because we hate being alive on days that end in Y. If we didn't take our warped frustrations out on fresh faced dps players brimming with optimistic Joie de vivre in order to make them feel spiritually dead like we do, then why are we even here?

"You know what I hate? People in their 20's. What does that have to do with anything? NOTHING! Now shut up and let me tank."

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Well, in defense of salty tanks, we only get that way because we hate being alive on days that end in Y. If we didn't take our warped frustrations out on fresh faced dps players brimming with optimistic Joie de vivre in order to make them feel spiritually dead like we do, then why are we even here?

"You know what I hate? People in their 20's. What does that have to do with anything? NOTHING! Now shut up and let me tank."

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You could say that our wretchedness is our personal élan.

Dc universe online had a scoreboard showing you damage in, damage out, heals given, received, etc.

People would look at the scoreboard after a wipe and kick the DPS with the lowest damage out, ( or healing out if its a healer.) These people fail to consider that a DPS may have boosted their numbers through damage padding and that healers may have been overhealing. Also personal scores tend to be lower when dealing with mechanics. (such as the person who stops attacking to open a door, bring over a key item or revive a fallen player.) I've been killed right next to scoreboard chasers who didn't bother to revive me because they were too occupied with maximizing their numbers.

Too many times I've seen people kick the player with lower scores and then our party continues to wipe again and again because they just so happened to kick people who were doing the mechanics. I think there was even a forum post somewhere where a dev came out and said they wish they had never added the scoreboard to the game since because of how the "hnnnngg moar deeps" mindset negatively affected the playerbase.

The parsers/scoreboards can be a very good thing to people seeking to improve though.

hey OP, you thinks thats bad, have you need a Frontlines match we're people are threatening to kick someone for they're "skill lvl" before the match even started LOLOL

Sad thing is, this isn't even a rare occurrence.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Way back when (Six moooooonths soooooo loooong agooooo) I couldn't clear a bismark hard in duty finder, because we couldn't meet the dps check. Flat out. He'd always wipe us out before we could start the second phase because we weren't downing both of the big snake guys in time. It was frustrating as hell.

This story doesn't end with the group mastering the mechanics before the timer ran out and getting a heartwarming win at the last second, thereby proving that perseverance and determination can overcome any obstacle. It ended with pure vitriol and hatred and a lot of finger pointing as each dpser fell on the other ones in a cannibal orgy of blame, each desperately trying to prove for the record that nay, nay, it wasn't they who were lackluster, it was ye. Finally it was a dragoon who got the finger as it were, an cries of booooooot him entered the party chat. And he blew up like Jules in Pulp fiction and basically let everyone know in no uncertain terms that if he were allowed to, he could prove for a fact that everyone else sucked but him. And he left that trial like an old testament prophet leaving Babylon to get mounted by Jackals covered in baby oil or something.

Anyway, he was right, once he took off and got replaced, the dps got even woooorse. It was a friggin horror show was what. I want to say that the other dps fell on their swords in shame, but mostly they just blamed the Astrologian healer.

What a mess.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

Yeah, I bet you just run savage coil with minimum ilvl with new players blind all the time, huh? Y'know, since challenge is so important to you.

I also find it ludicrous how hard you work to strawman everyone that doesn't disagree with you. The "so PC, so PC!!!!" crowd always does this. You work as hard as you can to demonize people not wanting others to be jerks to them and dress it up as being hypersensitive or overly politically correct when really, most people would just prefer game interactions to be civil. If someone's DPS is subpar, there are ways to say it other than "you suck, scrub" or worse. That you throw around "butthurt" and "super casual" give me a good idea what kind of interactions you likely have. :/

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Speaking of strawman arguments...

You completely misunderstood what I was saying and decided to just lump me in with all other "PC" arguments. My point is that there is no possible way to be constructive with any kind of criticism towards the people I was talking about. You can be as positive as you want about it, but any response other that blatantly lying and saying "no, you're perfectly fine" is an affront to humanity and the subject of demonization. I've seen more people explode over politely phrased pointers than I can count.

My argument had absolutely nothing to do with being rude. I'm not advocating being a douchebag. I was trying to point out that the reality of our society now is exactly what happened with your response. No matter how you try and phrase something, some emotionally stunted person is going to flip their shit because you didn't lie to them and tell them exactly what they wanted to hear.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

The statement "Could you AoE please?" for example, can be read as either snide or polite.

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I met English party (I guess they from Masamune) that teach me (ninja) to AoE at mobs. At first I'm thinking like why should I AoE? This is low level dungeon (Brayflox NM). But it proofs me that when I AoE it clears faster lol.

Sometimes you need to follow their style not just your ego to complete the duty. :)

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Originally Posted by Eul

I met English party (I guess they from Masamune) that teach me (ninja) to AoE at mobs. At first I'm thinking like why should I AoE? This is low level dungeon (Brayflox NM). But it proofs me that when I AoE it clears faster lol.

Sometimes you need to follow their style not just your ego to complete the duty. :)

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Unfortunately many DPS do not see it that way.

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Originally Posted by GaiTsutsugami

I just wanna start out saying, I main bard and I'm not exactly new, so I get how it goes as a dps. (Cleared thor and Alex S 1/2... screw 3). I also know the answer before I ask this so consider i for rhetoric's sake.

Why is everyone so touchy about their dps when they're told to step it up? Almost every single other mainstream MMO has some form of in game metric for dps aside from 'can i clear xyz.' Healers and tanks don't get a free pass, why do dps? Most dps complain too when a tank or healer makes one slip up, but 2/4 dps can drag 8 people down and suddenly you're a 'toxic' player for pointing it out.

I really, really, really wish parsing was a native function and we didn't have to use 3rd party stuff. I love ACT but I honestly believe this community could use a good wake up.

Anyway to avoid complain thread: ITT discuss times dps stood out to you!

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It becomes touchy due to the way we read it. Most of the times, it sounds harsh when you read it and hear someone voice as you're reading it. The thing is, sometimes we ARE trying our hardest; could just be a bad day for us. One day, I was constantly pushing 1200+ dps on Faust. After four wipes, my dps got lower, and lower, and lower, down to the point where after 6 or 7 wipes, I was at about 800 dps due to fatigue. At that point, I was told to step it. Like, really? after 7 wipes, y'all want to blame it on me?

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Originally Posted by Eul

I met English party (I guess they from Masamune) that teach me (ninja) to AoE at mobs. At first I'm thinking like why should I AoE? This is low level dungeon (Brayflox NM). But it proofs me that when I AoE it clears faster lol.

Sometimes you need to follow their style not just your ego to complete the duty. :)

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I agree! But then they find something else to complain about. Some time ago, I used Katon then Kassatsu + Doton. One of the members told me to do Doton then Kassatsu + Katon. I asked why, but he would never say, even after I asked about three times.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

It becomes touchy due to the way we read it. Most of the times, it sounds harsh when you read it and hear someone voice as you're reading it. The thing is, sometimes we ARE trying our hardest; could just be a bad day for us. One day, I was constantly pushing 1200+ dps on Faust. After four wipes, my dps got lower, and lower, and lower, down to the point where after 6 or 7 wipes, I was at about 800 dps due to fatigue. At that point, I was told to step it. Like, really? after 7 wipes, y'all want to blame it on me?

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6-7 wipes will drop your DPS 33%? I can understand if you start getting weary after, say, a whole queue's timer, but frankly, tiring that much after 6-7 wipes is some pretty underwhelming endurance.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Speaking of strawman arguments...

You completely misunderstood what I was saying and decided to just lump me in with all other "PC" arguments. My point is that there is no possible way to be constructive with any kind of criticism towards the people I was talking about. You can be as positive as you want about it, but any response other that blatantly lying and saying "no, you're perfectly fine" is an affront to humanity and the subject of demonization. I've seen more people explode over politely phrased pointers than I can count.

My argument had absolutely nothing to do with being rude. I'm not advocating being a douchebag. I was trying to point out that the reality of our society now is exactly what happened with your response. No matter how you try and phrase something, some emotionally stunted person is going to flip their shit because you didn't lie to them and tell them exactly what they wanted to hear.

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The gnome raises a good point. I've been in three free companies last year where people rage quit with a bunch of drama and whinging because you can't even tell people how they can improve over teamspeak in a friendly conversation. People don't want to be critiqued, they want to be told that they're awesome, the best, the greatest, one hundred percent pure sex with lightning bolt hip thrusts, and anything less than an affirmation of how wonderful they are is grounds for the ignore list and a smear campaign. It's both crazy and disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

The gnome raises a good point. I've been in three free companies last year where people rage quit with a bunch of drama and whinging because you can't even tell people how they can improve over teamspeak in a friendly conversation. People don't want to be critiqued, they want to be told that they're awesome, the best, the greatest, one hundred percent pure sex with lightning bolt hip thrusts, and anything less than an affirmation of how wonderful they are is grounds for the ignore list and a smear campaign. It's both crazy and disgusting.

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SOME people are like that, yes, not everyone. Vast majority will listen if the person "critiquing" isn't being condescending. Case and point, was in a Sohm Al run just tonight, where the blm was opening with thunder 3 and using 3 fires to get the Astral III status, I calmly explained that opening with a thunder 2, and use thunder 3 on thundercloud procs, and that using fire 3 is far more mana efficient, and adding in using Blizz 3 before the fire 3 for reduced mp cost on the fire, as well if so wished, they simply thanked me and began doing as I had said. There was no name calling, no drama, but, according to you and snuggles, interactions like this are impossible and NEVER happen. I'm FAR from a perfect rotation BLM, but I am decent enough to offer small tidbits of advice here and there, I have lots of room to improve myself, though, so if I stumble across someone that wants to politely explain something, I'll gladly listen. I'm under no obligation though to listen to someone that's being a rude, pompous, belittling jerk, however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

...according to you and snuggles, interactions like this are impossible and NEVER happen..

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Where did either of us once write "It is impossible and never happens,"? Snuggles and I merely pointed out the frequency with which it does occur. Your obstinate 'teaspoon of sugar' defense provides not the slightest surcease if the person in question is a deluded egomaniac as these games are wont to attract.

"Hey, if you keep blood of the dragon up you'll hit harder--"

"SILENCE! SILENCE! RAAAAAGH!!!"

This is an exaggeration. For realism, substitute "Silence, silence! Raaagh!" With "STFU, I know my class!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

The problem stems from several sources. We currently live in the society of the participation trophy. Self esteem is considered more important than hard work so everyone gets a prize. People are coddled from a young age and any form of criticism, whether its constructive or not, is immediately evil. Our society's overblown focus on political correctness has demonized anything that could possibly be construed as slightly negative. Everything must sound like a my little pony commercial or you're a hateful bully that can't be tolerated.

Kosmos also had it right with the single player game mentality. Games have evolved into glorified button-mashers. Strategy and practice is a thing of the past. If it weren't for games like dark souls, people who like to be challenged would have no outlet.

All of these things compiled lead to one inevitable outcome: butthurt.

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This is the most Valid point on this thread and defensive replies validates that. People will always try to make up for their short comings with an excuse and sometimes no matter how well you "candy coat" it they will still get offended by you.
I can count on one hand how many times a group failed a DPS check and any individuals asks " Was it me?" or "How can I get better?" Most don't they walk off and repeat the same mistakes over and over until they become unwanted.

Most players don't have an Epiphany they are forced into the realization they are playing incorrectly anyways. So why not be tactfully upfront in the first place? it'll only make them better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

SOME people are like that, yes, not everyone. Vast majority will listen if the person "critiquing" isn't being condescending. Case and point, was in a Sohm Al run just tonight, where the blm was opening with thunder 3 and using 3 fires to get the Astral III status, I calmly explained that opening with a thunder 2, and use thunder 3 on thundercloud procs, and that using fire 3 is far more mana efficient, and adding in using Blizz 3 before the fire 3 for reduced mp cost on the fire, as well if so wished, they simply thanked me and began doing as I had said. There was no name calling, no drama, but, according to you and snuggles, interactions like this are impossible and NEVER happen. I'm FAR from a perfect rotation BLM, but I am decent enough to offer small tidbits of advice here and there, I have lots of room to improve myself, though, so if I stumble across someone that wants to politely explain something, I'll gladly listen. I'm under no obligation though to listen to someone that's being a rude, pompous, belittling jerk, however.

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As far as I can see neither of them said that polite interactions never happen...but I agree with them that it seems to happen a lot that critiquing anyone ends badly.

I could name all the times I have politely asked a question or offered some advice and have been assaulted with profanities in response or even some occasions unjustly kicked from the group but it would take too much time. In my personal experiences 90% of the time I myself have offered help/advice, or when I've seen another member in the group do so, it ends badly. The player who is on the receiving end of the help/advice usually freaks out and gets immediately defensive no matter how politely people talked to them.

Maybe you've just been lucky? Or I have just been unlucky? It's really not something we can figure out a statistic on without running some kinda crazy study on the subject. Vast majority is only in your personal experiences, not everyone's. My personal experience for example is opposite of yours and I always ask/explain politely.