POLL: Best healer for 4 mans?

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Carve and Spit stuff

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Non-Dark Arts'd Carve and Spit is really good emergency MP, though. And sometimes even better damage, depending on the size of the pack.

And if we're going to speak purely in damage dealt, Carve and Spit always gives enough MP for one Unleashed. Assuming a simple pull of two packs, that's anywhere between 4-8 enemies in the current lvl60 instances. That translates to 500-900 total potency for the 100 of CnS, and then 400-800 for Unleashed. And for a significantly lower MP cost than a DA CnS, at that. :p

Essentially, plain CnS and its MP recovery does have its uses. With 4 or more enemies, just use the extra MP for Unleashed. If you intend to spam Abyssal Drain for higher AoE DPS, use it at as early as 3 enemies.

Also, on topic, I decided to be naughty and do naughty things not too long ago. White Mage DPS is nice. :p (And yes, before you ask, the second Summoner hadn't done any of her Heavensward Job quests.)

http://i.imgur.com/8rl2wQz.png

for speed I think WHM is still pretty OP if not paired with DRK (they don't like holy)

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

SCH is weak with AoE

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You're joking right

For the topic: I've always been of the opinion that Warrior+Scholar+Bard+Black Mage is the god composition for dungeons.

He missed a tiny word in his sentence...

"SCH is weak in burst AoE"

that would be right - after all the topic is about speed-runs :o

Edit: my favorit 4 grp constellation for speedruns is Drk, Ast/Whm, Smn & Blm - the Smn/Blm combo is just awesome...

Speedrun speed runs?

Balance and consistency with minimal down time out of fights, constantly chain pulling from one set to the next for fast consistent take downs?

i'll take DRK-SCH-BLM-SMN all day any day.

Eos can handle the boss fights and 75% of the trash, ill act as a pesudo second SMN and watch everything melt.

WHM maybe be better here and there under certain circumstances but i'd rather the security of no OOM chance classes.

[also lack of having to co-ordinate with the DRK about Holy vs BP timing, just DoT and go]

Rather than vague, subjective opinions, how about some numbers? At the moment it's primarily a White Mage's word against a Scholar's word and only one person sort of tried to make a decent comparison with the potency. At the moment, it's nothing more but e-peen hurt.

numbers and potency are worthless if you cant play the cls or handle situations individuell... never understand all the complex math-posts in here -> they are plain theory without proofing anything at all. you can trust players if they play both cls and say whm is way faster killing trash mobs than sch - havent seen anyone in here who question this words... o.o

It gives you a theoretical indication that actually allows you to compare the capacity of the jobs without random variables. For example: I can heal and deal more damage than any other healer as a mnd specced and geared summoner. Obviously, that's a load of nonsense. But how would you proof otherwise?

There was also a statement going around that the fairy can solo heal it, which allows them to deal more damage than white mages. If this is possible, then why can't white mages with regen and an occasional tetragrammatron? Too much subjective crap with no form of (theoretical) proof

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Originally Posted by Neela

blablabla theoryiscrap

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There is no complex math-post here.
And your "argument" is bad and you should feel bad.

@Raminax Don't post the logs like that, you risk one ban forum.
I did it and caught 2 weeks ban.

whats up with you now Namo? o.o

just said i kill way faster with whm than with sch - should i feel bad about that?... if u say so, ill do. not. and if you count posts you'll see way more people agree with that "fact" than those 2-3 sch players. btw it's not that i hate schs actually my main is sch too - therefore i know for sure what i just said about comparising both healer on trash mobs. dont know why u got so mad on me... but well in the end i dont mind at all.

and yeah Lyrica u said it yourself "compare the capacity of the jobs without random variables", so thats what i meant - same thing with all those dps calculation on Faust... DDs doing fine on it because there is nothing what could interfere their "perfection"... but where do u have this perfect setting at all? nowhere else. i wasnt meant to be mean - i personally just dont like those calculations. because you said yourself again "It gives you a theoretical indication". :o

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Originally Posted by Neela

and yeah Lyrica u said it yourself "compare the capacity of the jobs without random variables", so thats what i meant - same thing with all those dps calculation on Faust... DDs doing fine on it because there is nothing what could interfere their "perfection"... but where do u have this perfect setting at all? nowhere else. i wasnt meant to be mean - i personally just dont like those calculations. because you said yourself again "It gives you a theoretical indication". :o

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You don't seem to get it. Whatever random variables would be around for one job, be it gear, ability or random crit damage, also applies to every other job. Unless you plan to make multiple comparisons with all those random factors involved, then feel free. But why would you when you can do it in it's most primitive form and simply go for the highest ceiling. If all healers can contribute 1000 dps throughout the run, but can only achieve 80% of it due to the random factors, then all three healers would be affected equally. You make a claim, sustain it with facts. Not "because I said so" arguments.

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whats up with you now Namo? o.o

just said i kill way faster with whm than with sch - should i feel bad about that?... if u say so, ill do. not. and if you count posts you'll see way more people agree with that "fact" than those 2-3 sch players. btw it's not that i hate schs actually my main is sch too - therefore i know for sure what i just said about comparising both healer on trash mobs. dont know why u got so mad on me... but well in the end i dont mind at all.

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It doesn't matter who get the best dps (Burst/substain). My problem is that you don't explain/use argument. And please, stop using fallacy.

In a perfect world where SMN's will be more like smn's and sch's have a different frame of dps, this would be it. ===>

Nerf ARC dot's.

BUff SMN's Egi's potency and add more interactive egi skills.

Make Egi's look more like primals.

Reflect 1 for 1 dmg as long as the sch shield lasts. Damage is reduced by magic defense.


And give WHM Aero 4, instant cast aoe 45 second CD, that actually summons a T5 Tornado instead of a mini twister or a geometric shape plus increases earth damage received.



The end /o/

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Originally Posted by LDR

Speedrun speed runs?

Eos can handle the boss fights and 75% of the trash, ill act as a pesudo second SMN and watch everything melt.

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Okay the part about Eos being able to heal most/all of the time by itself is something I don't really get.

I'm about at i200 now and sometimes I'm lucky to be able to have the tank shielded jump to cleric apply dots, bane and maybe one more AoE before tank < 50% and I have to jump back to healing mode. Granted for trash the tanks are always pulling multiple groups. Again even on bosses with AoE dmg and the occasional player eating avoidable dmg no way I can stay in cleric the entire time.

I do things like Rouse before jumping to cleric to improve heals, putting up the HoT before cleric etc. And on the really big pulls I'm healing full time. I do have pet on Obey and force it to heal on my command (usually will have it heal while I'm casting a dmg spell). directed by mouse over etc..

Granted I mostly run DF so maybe that is part of it.

I keep hearing about how the pet can heal most everything but at lvl 60 I'm not finding that to be case.

Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Neela

He missed a tiny word in his sentence...

"SCH is weak in burst AoE"

that would be right - after all the topic is about speed-runs :o

Edit: my favorit 4 grp constellation for speedruns is Drk, Ast/Whm, Smn & Blm - the Smn/Blm combo is just awesome...

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Even in speedruns, short of doing dungeons that I just massively overgear, it's very rare for trash to not live through a full DoT rotation, so I figure burst isn't really needed.

Also that comp is good too, but foes for the healer and black mage+bard aoe does a bit more damage. Though I wonder, does foes increase dark knight damage since I think a couple of their abilities may be magic? If that's the case DRK would be better than warrior with my god comp.

As for Astrologian, their AoE truly is garbage, and even their single target damage is the lowest, so I can't recommend them for a speedrun at all. >_>

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Things!

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That's interesting! Thanks, i honestly never thought about it like that haha.

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Originally Posted by ElroyDrundan

Okay the part about Eos being able to heal most/all of the time by itself is something I don't really get.

I'm about at i200 now and sometimes I'm lucky to be able to have the tank shielded jump to cleric apply dots, bane and maybe one more AoE before tank < 50% and I have to jump back to healing mode. Granted for trash the tanks are always pulling multiple groups. Again even on bosses with AoE dmg and the occasional player eating avoidable dmg no way I can stay in cleric the entire time.

I do things like Rouse before jumping to cleric to improve heals, putting up the HoT before cleric etc. And on the really big pulls I'm healing full time. I do have pet on Obey and force it to heal on my command (usually will have it heal while I'm casting a dmg spell). directed by mouse over etc..

Granted I mostly run DF so maybe that is part of it.

I keep hearing about how the pet can heal most everything but at lvl 60 I'm not finding that to be case.

Am I missing something?

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Yeah you are missing something, namely a tank that can push buttons to mitigate damage :). Being able to pull off eos healing most of a dungeon does require a lot of cooperation from tanks in regards to sensible cooldown usage for pulls :). Also requires things to die fairly promptly so good dps is usually needed.

Basically what i seem to be saying is you need a good group....

I dunno why people keep writing off AST. Their potencies are lower than SCH and WHM certainly, and in most speedrun situations (medium mob group, tank busts all cooldowns and takes fairly low damage) I would say WHM would be best. However, people are forgetting speedrun situations like Brayflox HM: high mob density, tank busts all cooldowns and STILL takes a ton of damage. In these cases I would much rather have an AST, because in a situation where the healer is spamming heals to save the tank, only AST and SCH can provide extra DPS to the group via buffs, but SCH will likely need Whispering Dawn for the healing throughput. Cards also aren't heavy on RNG, because in a high aoe situation, 4 of the 6 can improve DPS. (all but Bole and Ewer)

tl;dr normally WHM, in high-density situations AST.

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Originally Posted by Triston

However, people are forgetting speedrun situations like Brayflox HM: high mob density, tank busts all cooldowns and STILL takes a ton of damage. In these cases I would much rather have an AST, because in a situation where the healer is spamming heals to save the tank, only AST and SCH can provide extra DPS to the group via buffs, but SCH will likely need Whispering Dawn for the healing throughput. Cards also aren't heavy on RNG, because in a high aoe situation, 4 of the 6 can improve DPS. (all but Bole and Ewer)

tl;dr normally WHM, in high-density situations AST.

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WHM provided the fastest Brayflox HM runs because Holy has lots of damage reduction with its AoE stuns in addition to DPS. 7-8 seconds of stuns is really good. If the tank was ever close to dying even with Divine Seal Regen, Benediction would (hopefully) save the day.

In 4-mans if the tank is good then it's WHM hands down. WHM have the strongest direct damage spell (Stone III), Aero III is as potent as Bio with a longer timer and coupled with a FREE Bane effect that does not depreciate when hitting more than three targets (like SCH's bane'd dots do), and Holy is a fantastic AoE with a stun. Additionally given Presence of Mind they can burst heavier than either of the other healers, and as long as the tank isn't paper regen will typically keep them safe until cleric can be removed. Also they have Assize, which is just GRAVY.

SCH is easy-man's heals and are probably better on weaker tanks because they can easily shield the tank, rouse the fairy, and then throw on all their dots and apply a bane before switching back out and lustrating the tank to safety. It's very safe largely because of the fairy's free heals, and dot damage is considerably useful given it ticks away while you address the tank with healing. Their strongest point of not missing with three of their moves doesn't apply as much in 4-mans though.

AST is the weakest for a couple of reasons. For one, no AoE until level 52, and then their mana management is rather bland. Additionally they have no AoE dots and can only use Gravity, and while they can regen like a WHM their stun is tied to Celestial Opposition which reduces their burst-spam efficiency. They can shield like the SCH, but without the fairy support it's not as safe.

And yes, this became a DPS answer, because if all you're doing is spamming heals without weaving DPS in then it doesn't matter, they're all just as good at it. Although if you want to be technical, SCH pulls the least amount of aggro from healing, and WHM can hit with the biggest heals. AST can play two ways, but also has the worst aggro reduction.

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Originally Posted by Triston

I dunno why people keep writing off AST. Their potencies are lower than SCH and WHM certainly, and in most speedrun situations (medium mob group, tank busts all cooldowns and takes fairly low damage) I would say WHM would be best. However, people are forgetting speedrun situations like Brayflox HM: high mob density, tank busts all cooldowns and STILL takes a ton of damage. In these cases I would much rather have an AST, because in a situation where the healer is spamming heals to save the tank, only AST and SCH can provide extra DPS to the group via buffs, but SCH will likely need Whispering Dawn for the healing throughput. Cards also aren't heavy on RNG, because in a high aoe situation, 4 of the 6 can improve DPS. (all but Bole and Ewer)

tl;dr normally WHM, in high-density situations AST.

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So i am an AST main currently, and i can kind of see a very fatal flaw in your analogy. Even high mob pulls like that can be dpsed by a healer. If you are comparing synched, the WHM wins over AST hands down since AST has no aoe at that level and WHM uses the stun from holy to do dps whilst no healing is required. Unsynched, WHM wins also, as it has both Aero III and Assize, which, unlike AST only aoe, does not get diminishing returns after a set amount of mobs hit. A WHM using Aero III>Assize>Presence of Mind>Holy will do more damage than AST Gravity spam. Aero III only needs 2 ticks + initial damage to be doing more dps than the mobs getting hit by the 50% gravity potency from mob density.

Assize is just OP, especially when unsynched.

At level 50, the only thing an AST can contribute is cards in pulls like that. It lacks the ability both SCH and WHM have of dealing with the healing and dps side, due to lack of aoe. AST at lvl 50 in dungeons is fairly misrable to play, unless all you want to do is heal duirng pulss, use cards during pulls, and then do damage to bosses.

I do have to admit, free or not free. I feel like Lily (The fairy) is either being overrated or Regen is being underrated. Because the traits do not effect Lily's healing, i glimpse at other whms with similar Ilvl, and most of the time their regen tic is only 200-300 less than what she's healing. Especially if the whm stacked up on spell speed. To be honest even on trash mobs, whm can handle placing out one regen or even with medica 2 if needed and just dps. [They will still be faster than a sch anyhow in speed runs] 21 seconds is plenty to dish out holy's that also prevent mob action.


Let's be real here. It's fine that a whm can heal and shell out explosive dps. They'v been like that thruoghout the whole final fantasy series they've appeared in. Including the same consequence that they either use up all their mana for one holy or use up a lot very quickly.

Just to further prove my point /o/


White "MAGE"
Red "MAGE"
Black "MAGE"
Blue "MAGE"


I think yall get it. /o/

SCH's on the other hand, have a very small history of doing moderate damage. (Not too special but not something to ignore either) However high in utility: Usually receiving information about targets or powerful debilitation spell sets.

With the exception in this game of course that they are fairly strong.



TLDR;

WHM in heavenward can practically achieve the same thing a sch can. [Keeping everybody alive while dpsing] And in some situations better.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

TLDR;

WHM in heavenward can practically achieve the same thing a sch can. [Keeping everybody alive while dpsing] And in some situations better.

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WHM in 2.x was better than SCH for dungeons where mass pulls and healer dps was expected. Holy did not have diminishing returns on mobs past the second it hit, and the stun on holy is one of the biggest factors in why they can do so many in a row without having to drop clerics and heal. SCH in 2.x had a hard cap on bane, however no diminishing returns on dots that were baned onto mobs passed the second.

WHM in heavensward is still superior to SCH in whats being talked about in this thread. For speed runs, the holy stun, assize in clerics and Aero III are still better than baned dots from SCH. WHM has had its aoe arsenal added to, SCH has not.

Honestly the answer is whatever job you're comfortable with. Sometime you get a tank that's lets you dps and speed up the speed run and sometimes you get a tank who thinks pulling the entire floor is the fastest route and you spend all your time and mana just trying to keep him alive.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly the answer is whatever job you're comfortable with. Sometime you get a tank that's lets you dps and speed up the speed run and sometimes you get a tank who thinks pulling the entire floor is the fastest route and you spend all your time and mana just trying to keep him alive.

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It can be the fastest way to do it, if you have the right party for it. But generally if you'd be as skilled and geared on all of the healers, it'd be whm cause of the way say, with the stun on every mob tank can go off tankstance. Meaning warrior could spam few overpowers and get few CD's ready before WHM commences Holy spam -> no dmg to tank + HoT's getting him up to/close to full HP, during that warrior goes deliverance + berserk + bloodbath + have gotten initial 5 stacks -> more over power spam + 2x decimiates + HoTs running on warrior -> even more dps time for whm. Add in some Equilibrium and Second Wind during berserk.

But that's assuming there's great communication between the whm and the warrior and both knows exactly what they're doing themselves and what their partner is doing.
Try to do the above with a AST? well, no stun -> less dps time for healer cause more healing required.

Try doing that with sch? There's not much anything but the regular DoTs they can do, outside of lol 50 potency Blizz2 and hope fairy + (assuming same tank) self heals keeps the tank alive.



But I feel like the speedrunning of dungeons was a thing only back in 2.0 with WP. Haven't seen anymore of hype videos tossed around 'bout dungeon speedruns after that. Maybe with Brayflox HM but that's 'bout it really, so not like it really matters, but for those that want to do things fast, theorically I believe whm + war tank combo + mnk/smn party would be the combo to go with.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

But I feel like the speedrunning of dungeons was a thing only back in 2.0 with WP. Haven't seen anymore of hype videos tossed around 'bout dungeon speedruns after that. Maybe with Brayflox HM but that's 'bout it really, so not like it really matters, but for those that want to do things fast, theorically I believe whm + war tank combo + mnk/smn party would be the combo to go with.

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That's because speed running dungeons is now the standard. If you're single-pulling mob sets in Arboretum when you don't have to you're going to potentially see people drop. There are also an awful lot of "gate-stops" in newer dungeons that temporarily halt you which makes it less interesting than something like Flox-hard used to be.

Also why on Earth would you suggest a MNK over a BLM for a speed run?

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Also why on Earth would you suggest a MNK over a BLM for a speed run?

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Cause I have yet to see any blm's having better parse over the whole dungeon* than on mnk + that way you get a melee lb for boss/bosses depending which would be better.

*All trash pulls + downtimes between pulls + bosses in same parse

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Cause I have yet to see any blm's having better parse over the whole dungeon* than on mnk + that way you get a melee lb for boss/bosses depending which would be better.

*All trash pulls + downtimes between pulls + bosses in same parse

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In a speed run you are better served using caster limit break on large pulls of trash adds. This is always the case unless the last few trash mobs are gated.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly the answer is whatever job you're comfortable with.

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Shhh. People are trying hard on "casual" content here. Don't try to inject sanity.

But finding new and exciting ways to grind peasants into the dirt is fun!

...well, it is for me at least.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Shhh. People are trying hard on "casual" content here. Don't try to inject sanity.

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Yes, how dare people try to maximize efficiency on content! How dare they.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

SCH is weak with AoE but is great with single target.
WHM is undoubtedly the strongest when it comes to AoE damage.
AST comes close to WHM but also has its cards to buff people who are AoEing.

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SCH is the only one of the three who can do consistently high AoE dps throughout a dungeon without mana issues. WHM has the highest burst AoE, sure, but it peters off quick and they're forced into a situation of low Mana, even with Assize and Shroud, because of how much MP Holy drains.

WHM has the highest single-target dps of all three healers
SCH is easily the king of AoE with any pull that's less than ~5 or so, due to Bane's diminishing returns, and very rarely do you run into many pulls in the current dungeons that exceed that threshold.

I haven't played AST, so no comment, though when my friend plays it and feeds me Balance+Arrow, things die real good, so that makes it so maybe they're good? But uh, 15% of my dps is still less than half what either other healer could bring to the field, instead, and Gravity costs the same as Holy while doing the same damage, but AST lacks A3, Assize, and ~7s of constant party stun. Their stun is nice, but on a cooldown and not as long.


I'm torn between SCH and WHM. WHM is way easier (pop hots, dps!) while SCH is really beholden to how well the tank rotates CDs, since a tank who uses them is invincible with a Fairy, but one who doesn't will die real quick without shields. I alternate, but I lean toward SCH, since I like the class more, even though I think WHM does it all the most efficiently (if you know what you're doing and properly manage MP)

Depends on the level of the 4man's. Lowbie dungeons sch is my favorite, you can stay in cleric while Eos covers all the healing and you dps or just put /follow on the tank and go watch some tv, possibly make a snack, or go read that book you've been wanting to catch up on.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly the answer is whatever job you're comfortable with.

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That's not how it works sadly. Certain jobs will always be better at certain things.

This game is fairly balanced in 8 man content and that's great, but 4 mans it tends to lean to one side or another.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

That's not how it works sadly. Certain jobs will always be better at certain things.

This game is fairly balanced in 8 man content and that's great, but 4 mans it tends to lean to one side or another.

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Maybe you misunderstand. When I say whatever you are comfortable with I mean which ever you won't wipe if tanks decides to pull than he should..

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Maybe you misunderstand. When I say whatever you are comfortable with I mean which ever you won't wipe if tanks decides to pull than he should..

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Ah, that's not at all what this topic is about though. :P

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

That's not how it works sadly. Certain jobs will always be better at certain things.

This game is fairly balanced in 8 man content and that's great, but 4 mans it tends to lean to one side or another.

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I do not think 4 man dungeons are high enough in difficulty that it really matters what healer you use. All the healers can dps and heal the dungeons without mana issues so I do not think it matters which you choose as long as you like the job.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Ah, that's not at all what this topic is about though. :P

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Heh, but wipes are anti-productive to speed runs =P

WHM hands down has the best aoe DPS and has the highest burst. Assize is just ridiculous with it's 300 potency to everything within 15 yalms. Don't get me wrong, I love the other healers and they're fun and unique in their own way but let's not forget the topic question. The question is not what your favorite healer is, etc. it's "Best healer for 4 mans".

Here's a few examples:
*The 1st boss in Nevereap, just stand in the middle and use Assize when the 3rd wave of feathers come out and they're gone in a second. In a second and 4 adds are down.
*Last boss in Fractal, stand between all the adds, Assize, now they're 1 hit away from getting destroyed(or if you're lucky and get a crit it'll destroy 'em).
*2nd boss in Arboretum, Assize in the middle of adds, Swiftcast+Holy the rest, done.

WHM's shouldn't be having MP issues if you're using Shroud of Saints and Assize at the right time either not to mention Divine Seal+Regen and Asylum is great for sustaining the tank and Tetragrammaton is a free big heal available every pull. Let's not forget Benediction and how it can be used in Cleric's Stance with no penalty. Divine Seal+Regen is amazing and should be used every pull but I always see so many WHM's out there that never use Divine Seal at all.

Again, I'm not bashing the other healers by any means, just answering the topic question.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Meaning warrior could spam few overpowers and get few CD's ready before WHM commences Holy spam -> no dmg to tank + HoT's getting him up to/close to full HP, during that warrior goes deliverance + berserk + bloodbath + have gotten initial 5 stacks -> more over power spam + 2x decimiates + HoTs running on warrior -> even more dps time for whm. Add in some Equilibrium and Second Wind during berserk.

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Related note: I DETEST when WHM does this, mostly because I tank as DRK. So, I've just drained all my mana on agro abilities, popped on Blood Price, then the WHM starts spamming Holy and I regain zero mana for the next pull.

To answer the original question, I find that a SCH that does DPS the dungeon makes the runs, generally, the fastest, and I would give that one my vote.