Proposal to scrap the +1 +2 +3 feature from gear

Ah right...I forgot about the fact you can use two seperate tools with two different results. Been a while since I crafted. Either way, I imagine Linen Fent has a higher HQ chance than a complete piece of gear would.

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Originally Posted by Turtle

Regaurdless, I would like to see the difference clearly noted between each item and its HQ counterpart. All this experimenting to figure out whether a +1 trumps a NQ and if its worth the price is annoying :x

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I think it's safe to say that everyone agree's with this one.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Funny the only person I've called an idiot on this thread is you.....And if I haven't yet then let me start by saying you're a pompous idiot. Again you post nothing except to fire back at me. I'm so flattered that you're infatuated with me, but quite honestly I don't like a stuck up *****.

If you'll do me the liberty of going back up to my last post, I want you look at the very end. See where it says, "If you feel different, then tell me why?" Yes? Now you do? Good! Because clearly the only thing you like doing is b***h and complain. Sure, I'm complaining, but I don't care which way or the other. However. I'll still play this game whether they change the game drasticly or not so drasticly.

So now I ask you what's your beef? Are you one of those extreme people that take offense to every nook and cranny about future developments? Do you have a problem with people not liking the things you like? All I'm stating is that I don't see why the hell they decided to change the crafting system of FFXI and quite frankly don't like it. Do I care if it stays though? Nope. I'll still craft.

There's one thing I know we have different. I at least like trying to discuss topics where it'll improve my experience of playing the game. Oh yes, I said it. Me. Me. Me. I. I. I. For if it wasn't for the fact that I'd like it myself, why in the hell would I start the thread in the first place?

Why don't I like HQ materials? Well I guess I feel if they change (Keyword: If) the quality problem into something more of what people think. (Example: 200 quality = quaranteed +1. Keep in mind that this number is fake.) To me, this seems rather odd to have in place ingredients that will guarantee a +1. Doesn't that just take the skill out of your craft? To me it does.

Why HQ +1 & +2 gear but not 3? Well I guess also I feel that if they change the current quality system, (Keyword: If) they would have to get rid of the HQ+3 ingredients since it'll put a serious crutch on the craft doing an HQ based solely on skill. Now why not a +3? To be perfectly honest why three? Can you tell me a reason why three sounds better than two? Because it does a 6% stat increase per +1? Why not a 9% stat increase? Doesn't three different versions of HQ seem like a gimmick? No? Can you tell me why it should stay?

There's the key words, Mariya. Why not? Seems to me that you're so quick to talk s**t about anyone who disagree's with you, yet haven't really seen your points of view on the topic of the thread. Seems to me that the only thing you've done was try and scew this thread by talking about a certain event I experienced on an item. Why is it that when I ask for your idea's they're nowhere to be found in your rebuttal?

If you're going to post about this thread then do so. I posted some things I think would happen if they changed this quality issue and my opinion on the matter of HQ materials and such. I asked for your opinion, so give it to me. Don't give me anymore whiney ass bulls**t and try to b***h your way out of the topic at hand.

P.S. I DON'T LIKE IT! HAHA! Isn't that the whole point of these threads, Dumbo!?

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Funny, because you was the one going as far as hijacked some other thread to started personal attack and flaming me, when all I did in your thread in the first place is asking for the proof of this claim about HQ 2/3 lower than 100 Quality (Which nobody has yet to proved). This goes to show how much mature you are, I hope. And you're the first one to say idiot, moron, s**t, ass, bulls (Do I need to go on?) and goes to length to derail your own thread. So yea, look much to me that you're very much wanting to discuss this in a civilised manner.

Bah.
I was doing tests and gathering data before the suspension. Some report was "strange". Does this mean the system is broken or does this mean I don't know every variance of this system?

I can take what Kihmari says for true. but do we know every variance of the crafting? If we don't, we have a lack of informations, and we cannot evaluate if the formula is broken or not.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

It in fact is relevant to your thread.



You can not get HQ 2 if your quality is under 100.

You can not get HQ 3 if your quality is under 200.

If you're going to post some random stupidity to act as a dictator in order to feel good, the Internet isn't for you. Do me a favour, understand what you post beforehand.

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but you can..... my Iron Hatchet +2 was made with around 70-80 quality...... everything was NQ mats except for the +3 glue i used

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Originally Posted by Cascade

but you can..... my Iron Hatchet +2 was made with around 70-80 quality...... everything was NQ mats except for the +3 glue i used

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Then it's very likely the threshold for +2 not 100 quality and 70 quality? What everyone here has been claiming was around that mark, 70-80 quality. If possible though I would like to see screenshot support this, because anyone can claim whatever they want to no offense.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

Then it's very likely the threshold for +2 not 100 quality and 70 quality? What everyone here has been claiming was around that mark, 70-80 quality. If possible though I would like to see screenshot support this, because anyone can claim whatever they want to no offense.

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ill try to get some screen shots of low quality HQ2/3 synths ive done

but when i did my linen yarn +3 i had maybe 20 quality total in the synth

there is no real threshhold from what ive seen, what i believe happens is you get your quality check when you complete

so lets say at 1-50 quality its 1% HQ, then, before it posts results, it checks HQ2, another 1%, then it chekcs hq3, another 1% and so on.
it could also do the same at 51-100 beind a 3% chance
101-150 being a 4%...and so on, going to a higher % the highe you go
and around 300 or so it seems to be more like a 15-20%


now granted those numbers i just gave are all made up, but i suspect the actual system it uses to determine HQ is exactly along those lines, but with a different % to HQ that im not even going to pretend to know exact numbers on.

so while you may see 1/100 HQ1s between 1-50 quality synths, you may see that hq3 1 out of every 1 million synths at that quality(i wouldnt be surprised if im closing in on that many synths total too, ive gotten all of a single hq3 ever while ignoring quality, and it wasnt with hq mats)

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

Then it's very likely the threshold for +2 not 100 quality and 70 quality? What everyone here has been claiming was around that mark, 70-80 quality. If possible though I would like to see screenshot support this, because anyone can claim whatever they want to no offense.

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i don't really sit ready to take screen shots of something i didn't expect to HQ anyways....... low quality HQs are just a luck of the draw and i can tell you want happened but i can't explain it

i did the syn and it had like 80 durablity and as said around 70-80 quality at the point that you start touching up
it was NQ to start with and i did probably 5-7 touch ups i don't remember the exact amount but it went from NQ to +2 there was no +1 in between..... i've also rapid +1ed stuff before, its all luck and its all random....

there are things you can do the better your chances but it still a RNG and i don't think there is a threshold for getting HQs i've done plenty of syns with 300+ quality and gotten nothing and i've had +1s with less then 70 quality

does quality better your chances yes..... but is it 100% needed when dealing with a RNG no

and i'm going to say this even though its going to sound like a your wrong shut up statement

but just because you haven't done it doesn't mean it can't happen, yes there are no SSs but there have been plenty of people that have said they have done it, luck of the draw is all it is, and it just proves more and more that crafting is random

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Holy **** I've grown tired of this stupid debate. I don't care anymore. The fact is what was supposed to be a thread over the keeping or removing of the current HQ+1/2/3 system ended up turning into a match of he said, she said. Don't give a **** anymore, Mariya. I don't need to prove to you what I seen with my own eyes, and I frankly don't care. If Origamikitsune posts a picture then maybe it'll help. Other then that, drop it. I want to get back to the original post.

Maybe the reason why I don't like it is because I liked it when it was the most simple. (FFXI) The only thing HQ meant when crafting the materials was that you'd get more of the materials. (Ash Log into Ash Plank. NQ: 3, HQ-1: 6, etc.) Seemed rather easy and simple. When it was gear, however, HQ meant better stats. Don't see what was wrong there.

Really I wouldn't mind a +1 & +2 feature for most of the gear. I don't know about you, but to me four different types of the same item just seem a waste of time to me. If you feel different, then tell me why. Don't stray from this topic.

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Lol. that is just how things go in the English Forums.... There is always someone who wants to change the topic in a thread instead of making their own thread.... As to the topic, I would rather +1/2/3 equipment be removed as well. I Do not see it happening however.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Lol. that is just how things go in the English Forums.... There is always someone who wants to change the topic in a thread instead of making their own thread.... As to the topic, I would rather +1/2/3 equipment be removed as well. I Do not see it happening however.

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Thank you. I don't think so either, but why not try? lol

After all, there are people that need to increase their Epeen by showing off their +1 Silver Tricorn....

Edit: to all posting their theory of HQ Relativity... there is a thread for that already, post this stuff there.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Lol. that is just how things go in the English Forums.... There is always someone who wants to change the topic in a thread instead of making their own thread.... As to the topic, I would rather +1/2/3 equipment be removed as well. I Do not see it happening however.

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And yet who's the one that spend lengthy posts flaming me and changing the whole topic? If you read it, it all started with this

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Yeah. I can give an example as to how broken the HQ system is right now. I wanted to make me a Chocobotail Saw. So when I finally reached the rank to craft one, I made an HQ+2 one with a quality of 20-29.....I can't remember exactly, but wow it's so messed up that I did....

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And Xenor's response

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Originally Posted by Xenor

It's impossible to make a +2 with less than 100 quality. I've done many thousands of synths skilling up with qualities under 100 and not one has ever HQed more than +1.

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The OP also goes into lying mode in another thread which has no relevance to him in order to call me a moron and post made-up stuff, which I did shut him up by posting some piece of evidence.

Deal with it, this is a forum for discussion, not to look for agreement. The OP used fundamentally challenged issue, people will challenge him. The HQ system will likely to stay, tweak is needed but it will stay. In fact many people suggest they should expand the HQ tier into something like EQ 2 which has even more tier than just NQ, +1/+2/+3 because it creates more variety of equipments.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

And yet who's the one that spend lengthy posts flaming me and changing the whole topic? If you read it, it all started with this.

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That happened to be post 1 of 3 I made here, which by the way did not change the OP's topic.

I didn't mean you, what I meant is that the OP originally changed his own topic and when he couldn't discuss anything without resulting to calling names or such he blamed me for changing his own topic.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

You can not get HQ 2 if your quality is under 100.

If you're going to post some random stupidity to act as a dictator in order to feel good, the Internet isn't for you. Do me a favour, understand what you post beforehand.

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Not taking sides, but at least the HQ2 level is dead wrong.

I made a vintage kite shield for a shellmate last week with all NQ mats. Final quality was a bit below 90, I want to say 84? It was NQ at first. After 3 touchups, however, it went straight from NQ to +2 (Neph Highwind is currently selling that very shield on Figaro). Since it went straight from NQ->+2, obviously, at 84ish quality, you can +2 an item.

I can be wrong about the value threshold and like I said in another post previously, have you noticed majority of people who claimed this also said they had around 70-80 quality? What if that could be the threshold? Also, screenshot to back this up should be sufficient. Words, as pretty as they are, are nothing. This is an Internet forum, if 10 people tell you the world ends tomorrow would you take that as evidence?

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

I can be wrong about the value threshold and like I said in another post previously, have you noticed majority of people who claimed this also said they had around 70-80 quality? What if that could be the threshold? Also, screenshot to back this up should be sufficient. Words, as pretty as they are, are nothing. This is an Internet forum, if 10 people tell you the world ends tomorrow would you take that as evidence?

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Why would I take a screenshot of a synth and what would I have to gain from lying about it? :P

Our shell has a fair number of R50 crafters, and when I mentioned getting a kite +2 at that quality, only one other had said he got a straight +2 jump off anything below 100, and I think he said 92-94, maybe? I havent heard of anyone else doing it sub 90, which could mean it's just very rare and requires high skill and high stats (I had 160ish vit at the time).

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Originally Posted by Solipse

Why would I take a screenshot of a synth and what would I have to gain from lying about it? :P

Our shell has a fair number of R50 crafters, and when I mentioned getting a kite +2 at that quality, only one other had said he got a straight +2 jump off anything below 100, and I think he said 92-94, maybe? I havent heard of anyone else doing it sub 90, which could mean it's just very rare and requires high skill and high stats (I had 160ish vit at the time).

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Stats is one of the factors. The right stats for the tool, The right Crafting Gear/stats (i seen people wear all kinds of wrong stuff), and the right Facility. Your chances go up. Not enough people have a grasp of those facts yet. I have +1'd many materials of my Armorer by just using standard synth the whole way through, Because i wear the right stuff and have 172 vit when when i craft. Would not be too hard to +2 some armor if I wanted to.

Stat feeds into quality (poorly). They do not influence the direct chance of HQ in any other way than to increase quality.

Oh and you can +2 a final product with less than a hundred quality.
End of discussion. It's not a debate any more, it's a fact.

Personally I enjoy the tiers of HQs. I'm not of the opinion that the issues with the HQ system lie there, but rather with the consistency of HQs.

Kimahri, I believe what you meant to say when referring to the correlation of Quality and HQ is that there is no hard, limited correlation between the two; meaning that although it is true that higher Quality increases your chance to obtain each tier of HQ, it is also true that one can achieve HQ at unremarkable, low Quality amounts such as 10-30. This right here is the issue with the system in my opinion, along with the fact that one can achieve amazing Quality values above 500, yet still witness an NQ result.

I can also attest that myself, as well as many of my LS mats have HQed +2 synths well below 100 Quality - one instance of a +2 at a quality of 30~.

MariyaShidou, I understand that since you have not witnessed such a thing yourself, making it difficult to believe, but have you considered that while many members are simply posting their experiences with HQing, you are the one suggesting the existence of certain thresholds in the form of lower Quality value limits being present, and are doing so without any proof. I only recall an instance of you linking to a Lodestone article that stated, basically: higher Quality increases the likelihood of obtaining higher tier HQ items. Suggesting that is proof for the existence of thresholds is quite a stretch I'm afraid.

Returning to the topic of this post, I will say in summary that I believe a more consistent HQ system should be placed into effect rather that removing tiers of HQ. I feel that these tiers add goal-oriented depth to crafting and variety to overall gear selection. I just don't want to feel like I'm having a stroke the next time I get a synthesis to 514 Quality and obtain a NQ result. :/

Thank you. You're exactly correct that there needs to be a more defined threshold into HQ. Don't really care much about a low level getting an HQ-1 at around 30 quality, but an HQ-2? Ha!

As far as the HQ gear situation dealing with the original topic, I've stated my reasonings as to why I don't like this system. It just seems like it'll be a total disaster down the line where everyone has at least the HQ-1, but the NQ will be a pointless item to sell except in some rare situations. It'll be like......Let's say Haubergeon. NQ=10k, HQ-1= 20k, HQ-2=500k, HQ-3=3,000,000 gil.

I see people easily making a +1 feature on every piece of equipment so I'm sure that it'll just be as low as possible in correlation to an NQ item. Hence making the NQ item worthless. Just my opinion, though. I could totally be wrong in the end.

Anything less than optimal will be useless at the end (give me one example in any MMO where people don't work toward the optimal stage, whether it's class, level, attributes or gears). But it's by no means you have to trash optimal gears, in fact you need even more variety, at the very least to get people to work toward their goal. Progression is what people aim for in an MMO.

Don't get rid of it just adjust it so your not constantly guessing. 400+ quality no +1 = fail.

I'd say that until the proper stats are increased by HQ, who cares!? ;)

In all seriousness, I like having the 1/2/3. You can invest a little time into the mats and get pretty close to assuring yourself at least a +1, which is still nice to have. Instead of going 0/50+ on HQing something, you at least get a +1 or +2 along the way trying to get +3. Usually...

I don't think the system needs to be scrapped but perhaps as was mentioned at least once some more consistency in the results would be nice.

The randomness (real or apparent) in this system is a touch heavy.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

I don't think the system needs to be scrapped but perhaps as was mentioned at least once some more consistency in the results would be nice.

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Given that SE has admitted attribute's effects have been weakened due to the current armory system, I wonder if this does indeed include crafting.

I think we need to wait for the revision of the armory system before even contemplating removal of HQ2/3 since we're not even functioning at our full HQ potential.

I prefer the current system of +1,+2,+3. I DO NOT support more transparency, as that will lead to a faster degradation of the game. Yet some level of competence with system will allow for consistent usage and exploration (discovery). Having said all that... we need empirical data (HARD COLD NUMBERS THAT ARE UNBIASED) to assess where exactly the current system is, so we can gauge where we want the system to go. Though I disagree with MariyaShidou's claim that "you can't get HQ+2 with quality less than 100", this is the only person that posted concrete Data (though irrelevant to her/his claim;)).


PS... please please please please everyone remember this is a game... and a forum about a game!!! There is no need for bashing real human beings for the sake of your opinion. In the end and currently your good or bad ideas about a "game" profits you little (unless you're a developer).:o

I just want white boxes.

What about the blue boxes?

20 consecutive tin ore +3 synths with over 500 quality each time: no +3 tin nuggets. My entire modern mining career's stock of +3 tin ore (I can't remember if I used any +3 tin ore for bronze, so it might have actually been every +3 tin ore I've ever mined), plus another batch from the wards, gone. I got like 24 +2's and 64+1s. That's all the cold hard data I need to vote to overhaul the HQ part system.

Assuming 10% of +3 mats you use actually make +3 parts, which is what the case is in my experience with pumping the parts to 300-600 quality with them: Four thousand iron ore+3s get synthed into one thousand iron nuggets+3 get synthed into twenty iron ingots+3 get synthed to two iron plate+3s. This only incorporates the number of +3's you make from +3's. You do marry up +2s and +1s, but again my experience is that 2/3 to 3/4 of my +3 successes come from all +3 mats using my own mined materials.

So four thousand iron ore +3s converts to four iron plate+3s. Four. Great. Maybe forty +2s. Ok I can take some good shots with those. Four hundred +1s. Ooookay those aren't really capable of making any +3 R40 gear, but probably enough +1s to glut the system and a half dozen +2s to sell decently. 1600 NQs. What am I going to do with 1600 NQ iron plates? Take em all to the bric-a-brac, that's what.

That's the reality of this system. A lot of people still want them that rare, but there are a lot of people who like the idea of poor gameplay keeping everyone else out of their activity. Some are crafters that can tolerate monotonous grinding. But most are RMT who will take to farming fallen mobs for +3 plates and dominate the market if the system stays this way. They drop iron plates and chains, and are completely saturatable by RMT because of their rarity and low spawn rates. Twenty RMT can probably lock down every fallen mob on the server.

If crafters can't make +3 plates and chains and RMT can lock down the mobs that drop them, it's only a matter of time before RMT buys crafters. Then makes the +3 gear that you can't. Then owns the entire thing.

The system has to change. Has to.

The value of something is always more than nothing, so NQ gear or items are not worthless, Even if people decide not to use or sell it.

What does FF11 have to do with this at all ?

People bring it up as if SE are supposed to use it as some kind of blue print, they didn't so get over it.

I like the +1, +2 and +3 system.

I agree that the relation between quality and HQ success is random as hell and needs to be fixed but thats been discussed in another thread already.

In my opinion, the HQ system is good.
Even the star stats shouldnt be changed. Every star is always the same + percentage.
If you want to see the real stats, SE could also reveal all other hidden attributes.
But you loose fun. Isn't +3 stars not a good indication?

If you think NQ items get worthless. Yes indeed, but all items under R40 will get worthless.
Bric and Brac. Is this new? What Do you want? In FFXI i ve used those items and degraded them.

Many chars are crafting just for repairment. They dont care for HQ.
Although Offtopic: I know characters, which believe in moonphase and totally rely on
Magic Craftsmanship. Most of them have exceptional results. I told them to HQ this and they did.

What is about quality?

In my opinion the entire system is a random number generator, influenced by certain attributes.
Lets say, random number of 1 to 999 possible. Lets further say. HQ +3 is on 950 to 999. The point is, how to achieve this.
I think there is a hardcap or a logarhythm which doesnt allow to force an HQ to 100%.
Why Hq+3 with low quality possible? A) for High Level Items B) Just for all the chars out there, who have a slight chance to get something exceptional. Why not allow it?
Don't be jealous. The hard working doesnt get all the efforts. This is life.

RMT. Well they are and they will always be. This is an MMORPG not a single char craft
boredom. Because of the actual local Leve system, you cant surpress all chars. Killing and claiming all mobs for certain items? Do you really think, they will do it?

In response to the original post, I feel it is too late to scrap the current HQ system no matter what popular opinion of it may be. Even when trying to reduce the loot pools of monsters, they are unable to erase the existence of +1 and +2 items in the game because they are things that people already have and have accepted to be worth their respective values.

You can't suddenly change it so all +1 items are now just the same thing as normal quality items and neither can you accept all the +2 items to be as valuable and powerful as +3 items. People who have already obtain any +1 +2 +3 items will not sit idly by with the sudden destruction to the value to all their possessions. High quality items already have their bonuses set and their values based on the difficulty to make and rarity and any changes to the system in which they were made or how effective the bonuses are would outrage too many players.

Live with it and just remember a +3 may even gain value over time depending on the changes made through the game. +3 is not meant to by use by your everyday player and is not meant to be common at all. +1 is a 5% bonus, +2 is a 10% bonus and +3 is 15% bonus to normal item stats (rounding up) for those who don't know and as the base items stats increase with rank, the bonuses are increasing at a much greater rate as well.

+1 +2 +3 system I think should stay.

People have to remember as well that there has to be a degree of randomness and chance in HQing, there just has to be, because if it is more consistent or follows a set pattern, then there will be more HQs, and HQs NEED to be rare

I'm sat in leatherworker guild furiously trying to HQ black leather straps... so far 0/56, pretty much all synths have had quality above 200. It bugs the hell out of me that its so random, and I agree the system does need tweaking. As people have suggested before, maybe they should include a touch up option for mats or at least for "parts" I think the issue is not so bad with finished items. Its MATS and PARTS (and cul and alch synths) that really do seem a bit unbalanced.

Wow, I hope that Mariya guy gets banned from these forums.