Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

this made me chuckle

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It may be funny or a joke to you but it's true. PLD requires the least, DRK and WAR contend for being the most difficult to main tank in. OTing is all easy, but the problem lies in the fact that WAR, with a simple rotation with overloaded numbers can out DPS a BRD if he gets to full time hayday in Deliverance... and it is a problem because the Bard has to work his ass off, especially if he has to Paeon or Ballad.. to pull those numbers while the WAR doesn't have to do anything that demands mechanical prowess.

This is the problem I have with Warrior as a class.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I didn't say it, Xeno did. :P The rhetoric of your statement is annoyingly pervasive, and it almost carries an implication with it that DRK and PLD mains are less skilled players than WAR mains, and it further exacerbates that attitude that "PLD just needs to do WAR deeps".

Also WAR/PLD mains, stop trying to put/pull (respectively) DRK down to PLD's level in the spectrum of tank balance in relation to WAR. I'm so sick of my job being the "middle child" in between the cockfighting of the two original tanks, and I can't be the only DRK main that is annoyed by this. DRK is as well designed and functional as 90% of the other jobs in the game... DRG, MNK, WHM, etc all of which have benefits and flaws. A job like WAR with almost no flaws exceeding the standard through things like infinite TP does not render jobs meeting the standard as poor.

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DrK does more DPS while MTing than a WAR does OTing.... Lets nerf DrK...

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

DrK does more DPS while MTing than a WAR does OTing.... Lets nerf DrK...

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YES. 10char.

I'm reminded of stories from WoW where there was an all DK guild that was doing heroic progression content. People cried there about how it was an example of how OP DKs were, but really, it's just evidence of how the class had a really diverse set of tools that, when used with extreme precision, can be as effective as the tools provided by bringing a wide bevy of classes to the fore.

I think that, more than evidence of the OP status of WAR, this more shows the skill of the players involved.

Though WHM is kinda OP from a healing perspective atm.

*hides from FC healer*

Based on the tokens I have, I farmed Thordan EX 44 times as of reset.

Since people here seem to be dodging the truth, I'll just state some facts.

Good WARs in Thordan EX pull maybe 80~90% of the DPS of good DPS. And that's with the necessity to actually tank. If you could just full-time DPS on Thordan EX, you would be even closer. The reality is for burst alone, WAR is better than most DPS classes. And, Thordan EX's design lines up very well with WAR burst windows. Phase 1 lines up really well with WAR's triple FC opener and ends soon after you hit your 5th FC. Phase 2 Lines up perfectly with a Berserk window. Phase 3 is again burst dependent. If you guess right as a WAR and pick the Sword Oath knight, you can easily kill it before the first oath switch and you'll only have to switch positions once. Phase 4 is again burst dependent with meteor DPSing. Again, things line up really well with WAR Berserk windows and job mechanics (being able to carry stacks from phase 3). Phase 5 you can open with your full triple FC opener which again perfectly ends shortly before gaze if you Berserk early during phase 4. Phase 6-9 are basically just striking dummy phases aside from the short periods of time certain people need to leave the boss to handle mechanics (p6 towers, p7 tether + divebomb, p8 chain + ice + comet).

You basically get perfect Berserk up-time with most of the Berserk down-time and pacification negated by phasing and mechanics. It's a really good fight for WAR DPS.

In my group, I basically pull DPS on par with our actual DPS in phase 1, better DPS in phase 2, worse DPS in phase 3 (because I have to actually tank), on par DPS in phase 4, and on par DPS in phase 5-9. And, we're an A4S progression group so our DPS reaches a certain benchmark.

What this means is that if you put together a decent group of WARs, they will probably vastly out-DPS a lot of mediocre raid groups. Is it some bar to judge that WARs are OP? No. PLDs are vastly better than DRKs in Thordan EX. I guess PLDs are perfectly fine as tanks by the same reasoning? It doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

PLDs are vastly better than DRKs in Thordan EX. I guess PLDs are perfectly fine as tanks by the same reasoning? It doesn't work that way.

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Well, while this is true, SE is to blame for creating fights that aren't fit for the class, forcing overgearing(i.e. Alexander Savage vs. PLD). It's all depending on the damage going out that can decide which tank to bring. Physical Damage? Bring a PLD to block and mitigate that damage more easily with things like Sheltron and Bulwark. Magic Damage? Bring the DRK to use DA Dark Mind to mitigate it even more. It comes down to how SE creates the fights and deciding which tank has the limelight.

As for design decisions, I can understand PLD being extremely clunky due to their Heavensward abilities(and some of their abilities in ARR) not synergizing very well(the only exception being SS due to the oGCD buff it recently received).

For WARs, the community believes them to be the 'top tier tank' mainly due to the shift in the end-game raid meta. Equilibrium does so much to alleviate their TP concerns when abusing OP, but what about Flash+OP? WARs weren't really designed to use MP in the first place, but they were given a reason to use it with PLD Flash due to it reducing the amount of TP they had to use from before(which was 1/4th or more of their TP Gauge). This leaves Equilibrium to be used freely for a free 200 TP a minute that the other tanks have to ask for(DRK can use Unmend for such when required), or in PLD's case have to suffer until either Goad or the Spire are used.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Well, while this is true, SE is to blame for creating fights that aren't fit for the class, forcing overgearing(i.e. Alexander Savage vs. PLD). It's all depending on the damage going out that can decide which tank to bring. Physical Damage? Bring a WAR. Magic Damage? Bring a WAR

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Oh, and the community doesn't believe WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta...WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta.

Had Thordan Yestreday via PF, and after the 1st Tankbuster it was.

1st DPS was me
between, long nothing.
2nd was equally on the OT Warrior and DRG with an i180 weapon on ~ 1000 dps

the other 2 dps were bards with i200 and i190 weapons with no mentionable dps...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and the community doesn't believe WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta...WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta.

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Has been since they were buffed in 2.x, iirc. I keep hearing that they did the maths to prove that WAR mitigates more than PLD while also dealing more damage. This is exacerbated by abilities in HW that allow Warrior OT DPS to top pure DPS job numbers in certain periods of combat, while PLD is still mediocre at best. DRK is doing okay, though, by my understanding, because they have the highest MT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'm reminded of stories from WoW where there was an all DK guild that was doing heroic progression content.

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The thing is, this isn't a new concept even for FFXIV. I don't know about you guys or your respective servers, but "Pure Tank" groups have been around for a while on my server. They aren't common, and I've seen a lot less of them these days (T4 mount farms excluded), but they were very common back when Titan Ex and T5 were still considered "gateway fights," which I think is when I first heard about them. The were kind of considered the "cheap way" of clearing gateway content.

I remember farming T6 when the party picked up a guy who consistently took avoidable dmg and ate the paste a few times, because he couldn't seem to dodge. After a run or two, one of the healers got pissed off and asked him in frustration about how the heck he managed to clear T5 when he was this lousy. His response was "we used 6 (could have been 7, but I don't remember) tanks." I think a few of our jaws hit the floor, because most of us had never even considered the idea before.

Now, that's not to say he didn't legitimately clear. His group would have still had to follow mechs (DB's in T5, for example, can not be skipped), but the way he made it sound was that the margin for error was much greater with a group of tanks. Chip dmg would have been nothing to worry about, so mechs like Titan Ex's bombs, for example, could be shield and healed without too much fuss, and anything that required dodging (like Titan's WoL's) were much less threatening. You wouldn't get insta-killed by them as a tank, and the strain on the healers would be much less. So, suddenly, all you had to worry about was the big mechs that would instantly wipe the raid.

The problem (at least the problem my group had with him at the time) was that this guy might have cleared the gateway fight, but he didn't have the same kind of experience dodging and working in a tightly coordinated group. He didn't even realize the kind of trouble he was putting the healers through. Suffice to say, he got the boot relatively quickly.

At the time, I didn't really give it much thought, but now I'm kind of curious about it. I never ran with a pure tank group, so I don't know how tight the Dps checks would have been back during ilvl 90. I'm curious if these groups were always made up of all War's, or if they had some Pld's mixed in as well...

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Has been since they were buffed in 2.x, iirc.

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Not exactly.

WAR had "enough" mitigation since 2.1, even though the gap between PLD and WAR was higher than now (thanks to Raw Intuition and the parry buff) and was the highest MT DPS.
BUT, without a DPS stance and no skill out of Defiance, it actually did less damage than a PLD in SwOath, as long as Storm's Eye was applied.
So, wether you wanted to play safe or go full damage, tanks just had to switch places.

Now, Deliverance and Fell Cleave are a much higher boost than Goring Blade and Royal Authority, so PLD fell back under WAR in both MT DPS and OT DPS...without anything significant to compensate.
The other reason is that stacking is bad. So, it was always better to go PLD+WAR than WAR+WAR or PLD+PLD. Now that DRK is here, "not stacking" is not enough to ensure a place for each tank.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

Main tanking as WAR requires skill. Off tanking, does not.

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Main ranking on any job is easy. Hold hate, pop cd for tank buster, repeat.

Off tanking is the one that actually requires raid awareness to pick up mechanics as they happen as opposed to standing in one spot all day

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Main ranking on any job is easy. Hold hate, pop cd for tank buster, repeat.

Off tanking is the one that actually requires raid awareness to pick up mechanics as they happen as opposed to standing in one spot all day

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Well first off, you don't stand in the same spot all day as a MT. Second, most mechanics in this game are a joke. It might be too hard for bad players, but what's so hard about most mechanics?

I play both PLD and WAR. On PLD, I primarily MT. On WAR, I primarily OT.

There is just way more stuff you need to think about as a MT. When you are OTing, you basically just sit there in your DPS stance and do your rotation while popping dCDs off CD to push stacks. Oh, I have to dodge this AoE, deal with this tether, pass this debuff, pick up this add. Wow, so hard. As an MT, you have to think much more about your dCD timing -- if I just use this dCD now to push more DPS, will it be ready for when I need it to mitigate mechanic damage? You have to think much more about your stance dancing -- if I stance dance here, can I fit in enough DPS-stance GCDs to make it efficient or is it a waste of GCDs? As an MT, you actually have to use a lot more of your skills.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Snip.

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Except stance dancing isn't a requirement of tanking end game content. You could sit in Tank stance the whole fight and still clear just fine. Provided you aren't carrying dps and the OT.

/sarcasm
We should nerf DRK, because they 7 DRK + 1 SCH Ravana Extreme
/rolleyes

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Except stance dancing isn't a requirement of tanking end game content. You could sit in Tank stance the whole fight and still clear just fine. Provided you aren't carrying dps and the OT.

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Stance dancing is required to maximize your MT DPS and your MT DPS matters in end-game progression. After you out-gear the content and/or have DPS / OT / Healers that can carry your bad MT DPS, then it's no longer required.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

/sarcasm
We should nerf DRK, because they 7 DRK + 1 SCH Ravana Extreme
/rolleyes

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4 DRK, 2 PLD, 1 WAR : Kill time = 8m49s. (August 2015)
Usual setup : Kill time = 4m48s. (July 2015).

Yep, toooootally the same :p

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Except stance dancing isn't a requirement of tanking end game content. You could sit in Tank stance the whole fight and still clear just fine. Provided you aren't carrying dps and the OT.

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/facepalm

It is clear you don't do any endgame content.

I agree, you need to stance dance, though tbh! you are doing it less frequently if you are playing a PLD, but as a WAR once you know the encounter your should be dancing. I would say when its new no dancing until you learn the mechanics and know when you can pop in and out of your defensives.

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Except stance dancing isn't a requirement of tanking end game content. You could sit in Tank stance the whole fight and still clear just fine. Provided you aren't carrying dps and the OT.

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So, during phases when the damage I'm taking is minimal (or the boss isn't hitting me at all) I should inflict a 20% damage penalty on myself... what, to prove a point? Okay, but explain again how this helps the party clear Savage level content.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Main ranking on any job is easy. Hold hate, pop cd for tank buster, repeat.

Off tanking is the one that actually requires raid awareness to pick up mechanics as they happen as opposed to standing in one spot all day

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Kind of ironic to find a comment like this in a thread about Thordan EX, of all things.

MT - Drags the boss all over kingdom come (Eye in the last phases, possibly have to move out of a charge as well)
OT - Tanks one add, soaks one mechanic, otherwise is basically a DPS

Whether or not MT is "harder" than OT is completely fight dependent and 100% opinion. MT T7 was brain dead easy. MT on t9 was a different beast. Overall tanking in general isn't very hard at all imo no matter which role you take.

So a fight that happens in spurts benefits jobs who can unload in short duration spurts?

Who knew.

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Except stance dancing isn't a requirement of tanking end game content. You could sit in Tank stance the whole fight and still clear just fine. Provided you aren't carrying dps and the OT.

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Because I love my Wrath stacks and the Parry bonus they grant.

/byeFelicia

This is nothing new, and simply people just QQing. Xeno and his static were doing MRD Turn 9 runs before 3.0 dropped, back when people though PLD was the definitive tank class. Although, I do agree that PLD needs some help atm.

Saw Xeno's 8 warrior Ravana ex video today, whats everyone's opinion?

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Saw Xeno's 8 warrior Ravana ex video today, whats everyone's opinion?

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It was tuned for i150 and the 1.5X vulnerability stages exceptionally benefit bursty classes. You skip most mechanics because of the overgearing, regardless of comp, Ravana literally stops attacking for about 1/3 the fight, and Ravana's HP pool is a joke as a whole.

Props to them for doing something interesting but in terms of balance or anything else related to WAR? It's really not a big deal. I can't stress enough it was tuned for i150~

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

It was tuned for i150 and the 1.5X vulnerability stages exceptionally benefit bursty classes. You skip most mechanics because of the overgearing, regardless of comp, Ravana literally stops attacking for about 1/3 the fight, and Ravana's HP pool is a joke as a whole.

Props to them for doing something interesting but in terms of balance or anything else related to WAR? It's really not a big deal. I can't stress enough it was tuned for i150~

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you know the more i hear comments like this without seeing videos of similar feets done with the other tank jobs the harder it gets to agree with comments like this

or people could actually go out and prove people wrong and actually go do it themselves with another 8 man tank comp.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

So 1 group does it; kudos to them. Now if Pug groups could easily pull this off, then I'd see a rebalance issue. All I see is OP grasping at straws to revamp the Warrior OP'd issue for the 1000th time.

#nochill

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and they're Japanese players with Gordian Axes! Not impressed and I almost expected it.

Also the reason why war can even compete with dps for damage is because of the lack of need for fending accessories coupled with the insanely high dps to keep subs. If you had a war in full fending vs a dps in full slaying the numbers would probably be more accurate to the jobs that they play as..

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If WAR needs anything dialed back a bit its not their DPS, its their infinite TP and Equilibrium's ridiculous (even by Xeno's admission) 60s cooldown. Those are things even a lot of WAR mains can agree on, but being able to DPS down arguably midcore/casual content? Stuff like this just makes non-WAR mains look petty. Stahp.

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Personally I think war is perfect for HW but the other jobs aren't. Its a role reversal of the 2.0 tanks. PLD and DRK need a tp boost. For example; Sheltron gives 50 tp on successful block and Dark Mind + Dark Dance gives 20 tp on successful parry (remove the 20% evasion for this).

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Originally Posted by Marxam

and they're Japanese players with Gordian Axes! Not impressed and I almost expected it.

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Where is the 8-dragoon with Gordian Spear video, then ?

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Also the reason why war can even compete with dps

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That's exactly what shouldn't happen. WAR should not be able to compete with real DPS.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Personally I think war is perfect for HW but the other jobs aren't.

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No, WAR is not "perfect". Unless you think that being able to do everything efficiently besides healing others is "perfect".

WAR is not competing with any competent DPS.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

WAR is not competing with any competent DPS.

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So, I suppose even those who clear Alex Savage are not competent DPS.
DPS Leader board

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, I suppose even those who clear Alex Savage are not competent DPS.
DPS Leader board

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Is that link supposed to prove your point? WAR is behind DPS classes by a considerable margin in all fights.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Is that link supposed to prove your point? WAR is behind DPS classes by a considerable margin in all fights.

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Sorry, my point wasn't to prove that you don't know what considerable means.
A1S : MCH 1371.32 -> 1202.81 / WAR 1302.66 -> 1223.71 (5% gap at most)
A2S : NIN 1802.76 -> 1514.37 / WAR 1761.62 -> 1553.79 (2% gap at most)
A3S : MCH 1212.66 -> 1105.55 / WAR 1094.57 -> 1094.57 (11% gap at most)

And let's put DRK and PLD to the test with the above DPS
A1S : DRK 1163.64 -> 1055.24 (17% gap at most) - PLD 829.65 -> 778.68 (65% gap)
A2S : DRK 1431.36 -> 1158-47 (25% gap at most) - PLD 996.64 -> 918.18 (80% gap)
A3S : DRK 1120.84 -W 1034.96 (8% at most - finally someone close to WAR) / PLD 897.22 -> 785.29 (35% gap)

Stop denying WAR's prowess...

And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD...

MCH gives you Rook / Bishop and Hypercharge. TBF WAR also gives Eye but that only benefits the WAR (already factored in) and the PLD / DRK. You ever stop to wonder why MCHs are still brought to content despite what appears to be low DPS in a DPS meta?

But I guess.... OMG THE NUMBERS THEY TELL THE TRUTH.

A2S is the NIN's worst fight and the WAR's best fight. If you're going to nit pick your numbers when I said DPS CLASSES, SMN's A2S parses would like to have a word with you. As a whole across all encounters, DPS classes are ~15-20% ahead of WARs. That's a considerable amount. Regarding this topic and my point, there is not a single case where you can bring a full team of WARs and not lose raid DPS given equal player skill.

When you lose 100% of the time, you are not "competitive." You are quantifiable inferior.

I never said anything about PLD or DRK. I said that WARs are not competing with any competent DPS and they aren't. You aren't replacing the NIN in your static with another WAR because of their A2S parse.

And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your misleading garbage. You say PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS in reference to A2S. Then, you go on to say WAR has the same mitigation as PLD... when if you are looking at A2S, PLD has considerably better survivability than WAR. Top raiders are on the record saying that PLD helps a lot more than the other tanks when you are at low gear levels in A2S -- aka progression periods where balance really matters. Why? It's certainly not because they're dealing more damage.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

But I guess.... OMG THE NUMBERS THEY TELL THE TRUTH.

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So, DPS numbers don't tell the truth.
Kill time with WARs don't tell the truth
WAR's prowess than no other tank can do don't tell the truth.
Numerous testing of damage, utily and mitigation don't tell the truth.
BUT, your claim that WAR is not overpowered is the absolute truth ?

Little hint, when all evidence point that you are wrong...you probably are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

As a whole, DPS classes are ~15-20% ahead of WARs. That's a considerable amount.

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No, that's not ! WAR is a tank. He can easily have 50% more HP when compared to DPS, and probably the same gap in Defense. On top of that, when consideriong eHP, he takes around 40% less damage, and can heal himself to full once a minute. And he's also self sufficient when it comes to TP management.
A simple 20% less damage on average is a horrible imbalance favoring WAR over anything. That's why we see things like 7-WAR-Thordan.

If the DPS check is not ridiculously demanding, there's no benefit at bringing any DPS over WAR. And if the DPS is ridicuously demanding, there's no need to bring any tank except WAR. Besides, WAR is also the least penalized tank for stacking, since you could keep Storm's Eye AND Storm's Path full time.

Why are you attacking a straw man? You realize that I am actually a PLD main, right? If you check my posting history, I have always posted in their defense.

The issue now is I have nothing to defend. I made no statements regarding PLD. Only that your point about WARs being competitive with actual DPS was wrong.

I said that the numbers don't tell the truth and that if you are going to use them to push the narrative of WARs being competitive with actual DPS, you're delusional. Your reply? Some unrelated BS about WARs being better than PLDs and DRKs.

Again, my point was that WARs are not competing with actual DPS. Would you actually like to provide any real argument otherwise?

How can I be wrong when all the garbage you just posted is unrelated to my point?

I would just like to say one word. Perspective. You have none. You haven't cleared any relevant content ever. You probably don't even play any tank class at a half respectable skill level. You only know how to cry, whine, and complain. Half your statements make no sense or are just false. If the DPS check is not demanding, you could bring a lot of unconventional comps. Does that mean those classes are OP? People 7 man Thordan EX when selling runs. I guess WARs are under performing since they need 1 more person. If the DPS checks are demanding, DRK is still a better choice than WAR for MTing because they deal more damage than WARs within that role. On fights like Thordan EX, PLDs fill that MT role instead.

Here is some more perspective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

That's a DnT DPS leader board from the FCoB era before part of DnT split off to form Elysium with Collision. You see the WAR DPS there? You see the PLD DPS there?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...986353&vpid=A1

Check the bottom tabs for T10-T13.

WARs have always been putting out good DPS. This current situation is not new. While the gap between WARs and DPS might not be as small as it is currently, it certainly was never a huge gap. And, part of me wants to think that because it wasn't as necessary, it also wasn't as vigorously min-maxed. PLDs have always been comparable but generally lower depending on their ShO up-time and the WAR's OT up-time. Again, nothing new here.

Go watch the Mogtalk regarding Tanks (Warriors in more detail) with Layla and Xenosys.

The current state of tanks is due to issues of DPS that arose from design decisions in early Savage progression and a flock of brainless doomsayers that kept that snowball rolling long after the issues were no longer pressing. So, now, the snow ball has grown to the point that we get statements like "And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD..." that lacks all critical thought, logical reasoning, and understanding. You think a statement so idiotic helps PLDs or hurts WARs? It doesn't. Anyone who knows anything knows how flawed that garbage is and it only furthers the idea that PLDs are idiotic cry babies.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Only that your point about WARs being competitive with actual DPS was wrong.

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And again, WAR DPS is far too close to regular DPS. That's what is "competing". Yes, their numbers are generally lower, but the difference is far more thin when compared to everything WAR has to offer. Especially, when WAR's rotation to output really good numbers is far more easy than actual DPS rotation. And, while still doing great numbers, WAR are more forgiving against other mechanics since they're far more sturdy.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Some unrelated BS about WARs being better than PLDs and DRKs.

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Oh, sorry, I believed the topic was titled "Tank Balance..."...silly me.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Lots of personnal attacks

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Ouch, what a strong point. I have absolutely nothing to reply...good thing I have nothing to prove to you.

Oh, and by the way, since tanks balance threads are all over the place now, I'm sure everyone that complain is just the same as me while you still hold the very truth that there is nothing wrong with WAR. Again, a little reminder. This topic started with a clear video of a 7-WAR PT killing the most recent content as fast as any usual setup. So, it doesn't require a math degree to understand that since the boss has the same HP, for killing it with the same time, you have to output around the same DPS...

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Here is some more perspective.

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You call that "perspective" ? "Let's compare situations before WAR got absolutely everything that make it unstoppable now..."
You must be kidding...

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Originally Posted by Brian_

While the gap between WARs and DPS might not be as small as it is currently, it certainly was never a huge gap.

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Right, that wasn't a huge gap...WAR were around 20% lower than BRD, now they're around 2%...nothing to worry about, sure.
Did I mention that, while receiving tremendous boost to their DPS (With the highest one time potency move of every job), they also received more tools to mitigate and one of the best self-sufficient skill ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The current state of tanks is due to issues of DPS that arose from design decisions in early Savage progression and a flock of brainless doomsayers that kept that snowball rolling long after the issues were no longer pressing.

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Actually, no. The current state of tanks is not an aftermath of DPS checks in Savage. It's much more simple as that. Before HW, you only had two tanks, and it wasn't a very good idea to stack the same job. So, you'd bring both tanks.
And besides, back in the days, each tank has a favored position either for survival or DPS. PLD was more sturdy, and WAR could bring great things as OT if they didn't have to use BB constantly. For DPS, WAR was undoubtedly higher as MT, and PLD was very close, if not higher (Thanks to Slashing debuff), as OT.
WAR's new design made him the king of DPS in all spot, HW design favored DRK regardless of any DPS checks, and we still only need two tanks. That's what pushed PLD away. Its ability to survive as MT is totaly on par with WAR, and as an OT, all of its mitigation and healing skills are worhtless.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

"And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD..." that lacks all critical thought, logical reasoning, and understanding.

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Please, enlighten me. What is the reasoning and understanding behind the current balance of tanks ?

Reynhart... Bro.... Broseph.... Bro Jangles...Brometheus....Broto Baggins.... You lost this battle a long time ago and just need to stahp.

What you seem to be failing to realise is that PLD is the issue, not WAR or DrK. PLD is the odd man out because DrK brings very near WAR levels of DPS just without the unlimited TP WAR has. It has become painfully obvious at this point that DrK/WAR are operating as expected and PLD is not.

As for what you consider "personal attacks" on you by bringing up that you have cleared no difficult content, this is a huge deal. You are literally commenting on things you have no first hand knowledge in. I too have made that mistake in regards to DrK. I was on the "DrK blows" train becuase I never really put a lot of time into them. Then this dude called Szgyan (or some shit like that) told me to turn the suck down and learn the class fully before I comment. Guess what, I did and after playing DrK a lot through Savage and Thordan I have really come to appreciate the class and realize that DrK is not that far off from WAR. So in essence what I am saying is go play all the tanks in REAL content and then you will see that PLD is the problem not WAR/DrK.

The only thing this video really showcases is the raw healing power of WHM. Honestly that is the most broken thing in it.

You are getting so annoying that I am in the process of putting together a team of 7 PLDs and 1 SCH to clear Thordan EX just to shut you up. Because trust me... It can be done.

On that note any Gilgamesh PLDs wanna blast Thordan EX out of the water with me?

Oh goody a friend was just asking me if there will ever be a 7 pld 1 healer or 7 drk 1 healer clear for thordan so good luck and please record it! try for 8 pld ravana clear too

I'd like to try and put together an 8 PLD party on Odin at some point for Ravana - with 8HG, Clemency from the DPS tanks and rotating who is tanking I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. I can just imagine all 8 hitting shelltron just before sharing a blinding blade.