What do you think of Ala Mhigo?

Regarding the "People in Ala Mhigo are content with Garlean rule" angle, It would be interesting to see a faction that wants to Secede from Eorzea, even try to separate the city-state form the continent, as a contrast to the Resistance, they feel that the Garleans are a much better deal then their King of Ruin and would do everything to keep Ala Mhigo under Garlemald's thumb, while realizing that Ala Mhigo would never truly be welcome in Eorzea anyway due to past transgressions (The Autumn war, the attempted Regicide in Ul'dah, and other things) and that most only want to free Ala Mhigo because Garlemald is encroaching on their (Eorzea's) turf. Their hope is that by removing the city state form Eorzea/Aldenard would mean that the Garleans would have no reason to go further or that the Alliance would no longer have the "right" to bring Ala Mhigo into the fold anymore (Depending on how aware they are of the Empire's motives) and thus removing Ala Mhigo out of the equation that is the Eorzea/Garlemald war

Based on what we heard of what the Garleans are doing to the occupied Ala Mhigans I doubt there are many Ala Mhigans that like their Garlean oppressors.

The Domans would not have rebelled if the Garleans treated them nicely and/or as equals. And we know Garleans are trying very hard to be the new Allagans and we all know how the Allagans were.

There's always a "good faction" amongst these type of Empires, but for the most part they seem set to rule over everyone.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Based on what we heard of what the Garleans are doing to the occupied Ala Mhigans I doubt there are many Ala Mhigans that like their Garlean oppressors.

The Domans would not have rebelled if the Garleans treated them nicely and/or as equals. And we know Garleans are trying very hard to be the new Allagans and we all know how the Allagans were.

There's always a "good faction" amongst these type of Empires, but for the most part they seem set to rule over everyone.

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They're heavily based off of the Roman Empire - and whilst the Romans could be cruel it cannot be denied that they influenced cultures for the better. Having the Ala Mhigans 'defanged' may work out in Eorzea's benefit - especially given their history. I'm not convinced that it's wise to liberate them - especially given all the atrocities they've committed in the name of their homeland. I'm still not sure how theft, murder and assassination attempts are meant to bring it back...

I wouldn't be surprised and hoping its just people telling "sob" stories or only the atrocities they witness and count the entire empire as bad which why during the 2.0 story line I immediately agreed with Gaius that I don't believe in the city states and considering how the crisis in Ul'dah was resolved still makes his words ring true.

Besides its not like Doma trying to succeed from the empire during a crisis when they thought they were at their weakest due to succession crisis thus creating more unrest to neighboring provinces did not warrant swift retribution no matter how brutal.

I do feel as though the tales about Garlean 'atrocities' are greatly exaggerated. We actively fought the slaughtered many Dravanians before learning of the nature of their plight. I'm not saying that the Garleans are perfect, mind you, but pretty much everything they can be blamed for can be seen to some extent within Eorzea itself. Square do a pretty good job of creating sympathetic antagonists so I hope they continue to do just that. As for the situation in Doma...perhaps the Domans slaughtered innocents in their attempt to free themselves from Garlean rule? That'd make it more dubious - and we don't know exactly what went on. Perhaps they tried to summon a Primal?

Some Domans remained loyal to Garlemald anyway - suggesting that Garlean rule wasn't completely horrific.

I don't really see it. The Ala Mhigans were pretty much a non-threat after their failed attempt in conquering Gridania (which would have eventually led to trying to invade other parts of Eorzea).

Just like when Doma existed, there still hope for Ala Mhigo to be liberated. The only way is to burn the whole place down, just like Doma. I'm pretty sure Doma isn't that innocent, either, given their Shinobi and how they seem based on feudal Japan system

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Originally Posted by myahele

I don't really see it. The Ala Mhigans were pretty much a non-threat after their failed attempt in conquering Gridania (which would have eventually led to trying to invade other parts of Eorzea).

Just like when Doma existed, there still hope for Ala Mhigo to be liberated. The only way is to burn the whole place down, just like Doma. I'm pretty sure Doma isn't that innocent, either, given their Shinobi and how they seem based on feudal Japan system

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...wait what? You going to save Ala Mihgo by destroying it?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Let's be honest here: why do we need them to summon a God when you're basically a walking nuclear weapon already?

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I basically imagine that sometime around 3.5 we'll get a message from Mask and Shorty that the stupid resistance has summoned Rhalgr against their advice and now he's going on a rampage. That way when we do get to the city we can fight tempered Ala Mhigans, the Garlean occupiers, and big papa Rhalgr himself. Maybe we'll have some Ascian or Garlean adviser (Midgardsormr style) with us laughing in our ear and saying stuff like "lol witness the true form of your gods jerk."

Alternatively, Warring Triad is gonna mess something up really bad and lead us to Meracydia.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

...wait what? You going to save Ala Mihgo by destroying it?

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Lol, no. I just meant the reason why the Ala Mhigan refugees are the way they are is because Ala Mhigo still exists and that hope drives them to do what they do. When that hope is lost (like when Doma was destroyed) what's left to fight for?

With no more Ala Mhigo to liberate since it's just ashes they'll essentially be like the Domans.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Lol, no. I just meant the reason why the Ala Mhigan refugees are the way they are is because Ala Mhigo still exists and that hope drives them to do what they do. When that hope is lost (like when Doma was destroyed) what's left to fight for?

With no more Ala Mhigo to liberate since it's just ashes they'll essentially be like the Domans.

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Be like the Domans? You mean productive and industrious, eager to actually work and build up a new City-State?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I basically imagine that sometime around 3.5 we'll get a message from Mask and Shorty that the stupid resistance has summoned Rhalgr against their advice and now he's going on a rampage. That way when we do get to the city we can fight tempered Ala Mhigans, the Garlean occupiers, and big papa Rhalgr himself. Maybe we'll have some Ascian or Garlean adviser (Midgardsormr style) with us laughing in our ear and saying stuff like "lol witness the true form of your gods jerk."

Alternatively, Warring Triad is gonna mess something up really bad and lead us to Meracydia.

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INB4 someone in-game says "Where is your god now?" as Rhalgr rampages as God King of the new Theocracy pf Ala Mhigo

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Be like the Domans? You mean productive and industrious, eager to actually work and build up a new City-State?

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Because Doman don't have a place to call home now. If Doma still existed you can bet that's all what they'll be talking about. We don't really know how they acted when prior to their failed coup. Even then it was another Doman that betrayed them

Let's not forget that not all Ala Mhigans are resistance members. Many have moved on and found success ... but they never seem to get anywhere due to Lolorito and syndicate members (if you did the Ul'dah storyline) or past prejudices like seen in Gridania. The Syndicate benefitted greatly due to the influx of cheap labor due to these refugees.

It's not really Ul'dah's responsibility to look out for the displaced Ala Mhigans. Some of them have made a living for themselves but many seem to believe that the world owes them quite a bit. I've never had much sympathy for economic migrants though. You'd think that a nation that values strength and brute force would more easily accept defeat and control at the hands of a more powerful nation. After all, they sought to control Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Some Domans remained loyal to Garlemald anyway - suggesting that Garlean rule wasn't completely horrific.

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The only Doman I can think of who remained loyal to Garlemald is Gekkai, who helped overthrow Doma and was given a place of power in the Garlean Empire to save his own skin. He saved the shinobi village while burning the rest of Doma. I'm not sure this is a positive note in the Garlean's favor.

I'm a little surprised about all the Ala Mhigan hate, but I suppose it's more about the sheer length of their bellyaching about their lost homeland, 5 real people years, yikes. Without the Ala Mhigan Resistance, we'd have no Scions of the Seventh Dawn, no Path of the Twelve--Minfilia wouldn't be in Eorzea but probably brutalized or brainwashed in Ala Mhigo. The Circle of Knowing would have probably still tried to stave off the Garlean invasion, but they'd be bereft of the Echo-users (there's the Students of Baldesion, but how often did they really do anything? After all remember greater Sharlayan's nonintervention policy). We sell Minfilia short a lot around here, but her presence in Eorzea has undoubtedly changed the Realm's history for the better.

People have made comparisons about the hate towards the Ala Mhigans with the hate towards the Ishgardians before the introduction of Aymeric and Heavensward. I want to point out that's a bit of a unfair comparison.

During the initial Coerthas quest chain in 2.0, we were introduced to a character who pretty much defied all stereotypes of Ishgardians before that point: Lord Haurchefant. And even the more 'steroetypical' Ishgardian, Lord Drillemont, warmed up to us significantly by the end of the quest chain, swallowing his pride to admit he was wrong about us and gladly grand us access to the Stone Vigil (after having been staunchly opposed to it when we first met him). Even before Aymeric was introduced, one got the impression that while the ruling authority in Ishgard was jerkish, the people themselves weren't that bad (appropriately leading us to take out said leadership). Between Drillemont, Haruchefant, and Francel, they were actually a varied bunch within the 2.0 Coerthas story.

In this way, the criticism of the Ala Mhigans we've met so far is valid. Almost all of them are hung up on the loss of their homeland in some way or another. You could argue Ishgard was hung up on the Dragonsong War, but I point again to the variety of characters we got despite that during 2.0. Whereas the Ala Mhigans have been nigh universally belligerent and 'warlike', and before you ask Raubahnn is not excluded from that since he's a former gladiator and very much the most 'combative' of the Alliance leaders. We've yet to get any real strong personalities that either defy or at least subvert these stereotypes.

That said, I suspect we'll start warming up to them come the Ala Mhigo expansion. But I can't blame anyone for not being too fond of them. Illberd certainly didn't help their case either (To be fair, though, he's an asshole even by Ala Mhigan standards).

Hmmm.
I can only inject that I'd love to visit Ala Mhigo, what with playing a Highlander and being engrossed in the Monk storyline (and being obsessed with monks in every FF job game).

I came here to ask a question though, that is perhaps off-topic, but maybe not.
From whence does the mention of summoning Rhalgr come? I've been playing under the impression the Twelve would not be summon-able in the same way as the Primals, but as I write this I realise they probably are....
Anyway, are there pointers to this in some previous story point I've forgotten, or is it a hangover from 1.x, or... what?

It was during the early 2.0 quest: "Big Trouble in Little Ala Mhigo" where Little Ala Mhigans tried and failed to steal the crystals from Amal'jaa in order to summon Rhalgr

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Wilred reveals that it was the masked stranger who first prompted him and his friends to entertain the notion of summoning Rhalgr. But what did Lahabrea—if indeed it was he—hope to accomplish by putting great power in the hands of the unworthy?

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What we later find out in 3.0 is that anything can be summoned and turned into a Primal: Bahamut and Shiva being the best examples of Primals not truly being who they're based off as confirmed by people who actually knew them. All you need is aether + belief/faith + ??? = Primal

With that said, the Rhalgr that the Ala Mhigan would have summoned would not be the true Rhalgr. Just another Primal.

No idea, I've never been to or seen it yet. If its anything like Little Ala Mhigo I'm thinking probably more of the same in a bigger mountain.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

No idea, I've never been to or seen it yet. If its anything like Little Ala Mhigo I'm thinking probably more of the same in a bigger mountain.

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Well, whinny old men sitting on their asses swaping stories about "The Good Old Days" and moronic young folk calling for a "Revolution" when they only have around 20 people in their "Rebellion" is probably an awfully rare occurrence in the likely approaching 40 years since the Garlens took over. So I doubt we'll be seeing anything like Little Ala Mhigo in Ala Mhigo Proper.

Probably a lot more "Slaughter the Beast Men!" and "Down with the Primal Scourge!!" going on though. Certainly no talk of summoning a false deity in the image of Rahlger the Destroyer as Garlen Society frowns on Eikon worship.

My concern is that Highlander culture is pretty obnoxious. It's alright in small doses but I don't feel like it has enough strength to carry an expansion by itself. We'll need much more than that - though the question is, what will that be? Thavarian (?) has been mentioned a few times lately and we've even gotten a dance and clothing from that region as well as a couple of NPC's. It's not too far away from Ala Mhigo if I'm not mistaken so we could end up going there as well.

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Originally Posted by myahele

With that said, the Rhalgr that the Ala Mhigan would have summoned would not be the true Rhalgr. Just another Primal.

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Except that Rhalgr is a god, so he's a being of faith in the first place, shaped by people's beliefs. So actually, it is the true Rhalgr, just like beastmen tribe primals are their "true" selves, too :)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

My concern is that Highlander culture is pretty obnoxious. It's alright in small doses but I don't feel like it has enough strength to carry an expansion by itself. We'll need much more than that - though the question is, what will that be? Thavarian (?) has been mentioned a few times lately and we've even gotten a dance and clothing from that region as well as a couple of NPC's. It's not too far away from Ala Mhigo if I'm not mistaken so we could end up going there as well.

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In addition to Ala Mihgo's region of Gyr Albania there's also Xelphatol on Coerthas and The Shroud's eastern border and making the west border of Gyr Albania. Problem being, other than the Ixali there's not really anything in Xelphatol.

I don't really care for Ala Mhigo. I have some mild interest in whatever magitek the Garleans may have deployed there, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Except that Rhalgr is a god, so he's a being of faith in the first place, shaped by people's beliefs. So actually, it is the true Rhalgr, just like beastmen tribe primals are their "true" selves, too :)

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So what does that mean for those players, such as myself, who chose Rhalgr as our guardian? Or are a monk?
I find the concept of being forced into slaying the object of your worship... unpleasing.

no one cares about ala mhingo not even SE, they squashed that ilberd and the rouge crystal braves side story real quick for the whole Ishgard conspiracy thing

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Originally Posted by PogueX

no one cares about ala mhingo not even SE, they squashed that ilberd and the rouge crystal braves side story real quick for the whole Ishgard conspiracy thing

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To be fair, if yda and papalymo are working with the ala mihgan resistance, it could mean for some odd bedfellows if Illbred is working with them too.

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Originally Posted by Sevyrr

So what does that mean for those players, such as myself, who chose Rhalgr as our guardian? Or are a monk?
I find the concept of being forced into slaying the object of your worship... unpleasing.

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You're not slaying your god, you're slaying a blasphemous, Ascian corrupted, primal falsely claiming himself to be your God and ergo it's your duty as followers of the TRUE Destroyer to slay the false deity masquerading as your God.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

You're not slaying your god, you're slaying a blasphemous, Ascian corrupted, primal falsely claiming himself to be your God and ergo it's your duty as followers of the TRUE Destroyer to slay the false deity masquerading as your God.

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I don't know about the Ascien corrupted part, since Louisoix's method of Summoning the 12 during the Calamity would still have resulted in the 12 wanting to temper and consume aether like any primal.

But yeah, that's pretty much the reason why many of the non-tempered beastribe don't worship their respective primal

I'd rather see Radz-at-Han or Sharlayan (country, not colony) way, way more. However, it would give the MSQ a connection to world events and a way to make more powerful statements on displaced refugees, so I think it'll at least be a part of the late 3 or early 4 MSQ, if I may hope it won't be the focus. Ala Mhigo would be a great dungeon or raid, though.

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Originally Posted by IrisBlanchimont

I'd rather see Radz-at-Han or Sharlayan (country, not colony) way, way more. However, it would give the MSQ a connection to world events and a way to make more powerful statements on displaced refugees, so I think it'll at least be a part of the late 3 or early 4 MSQ, if I may hope it won't be the focus. Ala Mhigo would be a great dungeon or raid, though.

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Radz-at-han is a city in Thavnaria iirc.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Radz-at-han is a city in Thavnaria iirc.

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It's the local city-state there. That location, or the Sharlayan islands, would be way more interesting locations to base an expansion around than Ala Mhigo.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Except that Rhalgr is a god, so he's a being of faith in the first place, shaped by people's beliefs. So actually, it is the true Rhalgr, just like beastmen tribe primals are their "true" selves, too :)

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That's a rather flawed logic. We don't know the true nature of the Twelve. Its perfectly possible that they could get by fine without any worshipers. Your assuming it was worshippers faith that made them exist when it could be their existence that lead to them being worshiped. We haven't had any confirmation on that. Further since we seem to see Primals as 'False Gods' that would suggest there is such a thing as a 'True God'.

This again ignores the irregularities that several Eikons display. Who worships the Triad? Primals as we know them need worship to be sustained. Who worships Odin?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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We know that the Twelve can be summoned with the same method as Primals. While the Eorzeans believe the Twelve to be 'true gods', thus deeming the beastmen primals as 'false gods', the idea that in order for a worshiped being to be a false god a true god must exist is a huge misconception about the nature of truth. As for Odin and the Triad, the Loremongers here have typically made a distinction in the way 'Elder Primals" and regular primals function. See the "Dark Divinity" discussions we've had for a deep exploration of those questions you raised.

That said, the closest to a deity we've encountered is probably Zodiark and Hydealyn.

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Originally Posted by IrisBlanchimont

We know that the Twelve can be summoned with the same method as Primals. While the Eorzeans believe the Twelve to be 'true gods', thus deeming the beastmen primals as 'false gods', the idea that in order for a worshiped being to be a false god a true god must exist is a huge misconception about the nature of truth. As for Odin and the Triad, the Loremongers here have typically made a distinction in the way 'Elder Primals" and regular primals function. See the "Dark Divinity" discussions we've had for a deep exploration of those questions you raised.

That said, the closest to a deity we've encountered is probably Zodiark and Hydealyn.

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Except that one example of an Elder primal that we know about, Bahumat, did function effectively as a normal primal. The point is that we probably only have a very basic understanding of the nature of primals and Eikons and their relationship.

Further, if someone used a summoning ritual to summon one of the twelve, what appeared would be a primal but that doesn't mean its actually one of the Twelve. Bahumat wasn't actually the real Bahumat. It was a False representation of him created by the minds of the summoners.

Likewise the Beasttribe primals quite likely have real origins but most likely almost none of them are the original source of the legend of the God. There was almost certainly something that was once called Bismarck but we cant be sure what it is. Garuda very likely was a historical figure, maybe even an Allagan or Chimera (which would explain the human/birdlike appearance the Ixali conjured). Ravana sounds like he was an ancient legendary Gnath hero. There was quite likely once an ancient mighty sea serpent that inspired Leviathan.

However, just like Shiva and Bahamut, the Primal is just a false copy of the real thing. Likewise, the twelve could be originals. Till we have any true evidence on the nature of the twelve, its very much speculation. There are too many outliers and unexplained instances for us to call it for sure.

One other thing I would note on the twelve is they have an interesting correlation with the elements. Twelve gods with all paired into elemental catagories with one holding an umbral and one holding an astral nature. The twelve might not exactly be what we think they are but I wouldn't be surprised if they are or were part of the worlds natural balance, particularly since the place they are worshipped, Eorzea, is the Aetheric centre of Hydealyn.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The twelve might not exactly be what we think they are but I wouldn't be surprised if they are or were part of the worlds natural balance, particularly since the place they are worshipped, Eorzea, is the Aetheric centre of Hydealyn.

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Correlation does not imply causation. Consider how our own deities came to be: we see the sun move across the sky and assume a god caused it to do so. So we later decide that clearly a god does it because our explanation makes so much sense. And the moon must be a god as well, because of the nature of balance. Consider also that the Final Fantasy series very rarely, if ever, has a popular religion in its series that is true.

Considering these things, its as likely if not more likely that the Twelve are a product of twelve months per year, six elements and Eorzeans loce of astral and umbral dynamics. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Twelve are any different from the primals we figt constantly.

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Originally Posted by IrisBlanchimont

Correlation does not imply causation. Consider how our own deities came to be: we see the sun move across the sky and assume a god caused it to do so. So we later decide that clearly a god does it because our explanation makes so much sense. And the moon must be a god as well, because of the nature of balance. Consider also that the Final Fantasy series very rarely, if ever, has a popular religion in its series that is true.

Considering these things, its as likely if not more likely that the Twelve are a product of twelve months per year, six elements and Eorzeans loce of astral and umbral dynamics. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Twelve are any different from the primals we figt constantly.

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I think the origin of the 12 is likely that they were the heros who tried to stop the 1st Umbral Era and that when they "Left" Eorzea it was likly their deaths that lead to that. That The Original Twelve were simply mortal heroes like us and that, upon failing to stop the 1st Umbral Era, died and faded into legend. Eventually becoming powerful gods that abandoned the physical world during the 1st Calamity in the time before time.

This would almost explain why summoning them would simply make primals and why they seem to never act nor do they seem to fit properly with Hydaelyn's existence or Midguardsormr's arival on the planet. They weren't actually Gods but simply the very first Warriors of Light from a time when Hydaelyn's power was still 100% and the first crystals of light had God Like Powers.

As they say, all myths have some basis in reality.

I didn't want to go too much in-depth because it's gonna borderline on insulting rl religions and that's just never a good thing in an internet forum xD

In general, religions are based on someone telling a story about something he couldn't explain with anything but "it must have been a higher being!". That's why most religions stem from a time when we still had no explanations for most natural phenomenons.
Now I'm not trying to say all religions are fake and there is no god, but can we at least agree that humanity is what shaped religion and it's stories and views mostly?
Sure, you could say the old-time Greeks and Romans totally encountered their gods on a daily basis and that's why they knew them all so well, their personality traits and relationships and who made babies with who and the like.
It's probably more likely though that someone had a vivid dream and a lot of charisma and that's how the whole thing got started. In that case, there wouldn't be "real", "original" gods. All they are IS the belief in them. In the magical realm of Eorzea, beliefs can take form, contrary to the real world. So that belief IS their god, no "real" version behind it, since it's source of existance IS the belief of the people forming it.
There is no "real" Ifrit or Ramuh either hidden behind a miss-led summon. What they summon is actually their god, since - like I said before - gods are something shaped by their followers anyway.
In 1.0, I thought the Twelve are different from Primal gods, but us summoning them pretty much the same way made me throw that assumption out the window.

I guess for now this discussion comes down to two things:
1. if you believe in there being something "real" behind religions in general
2. waiting for confirmation of Eorzea having actual, real gods that exist seperately from people believing in them or not.

(@Odin & Triad: Odin got a lengthy explanation by Urianger, basically he got sealed to his sword, so as long as that one isn't destroyed, he doesn't need followers or anything. Triad will probably get a lot more focus in the next patch.)

To be honest, the Ala Mhigan refugee situation in Ul'dah reminds me a fair bit of what Europe is experiencing right now. It ain't easy for anyone involved.

Personally I really want to go to Ala Mhigo because of the older parts of its lore, the lancers and a chance to finally trash some empire butt again.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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Maybe they stoped Zordiark?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

They weren't actually Gods but simply the very first Warriors of Light from a time when Hydaelyn's power was still 100% and the first crystals of light had God Like Powers.

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You know what bugs me about the entire 'Chrystals of Light were much more powerful in the past'-thing? If that's true, and if we assume that the Warriors of Light appeared in each Umbral Era plus Hydaelyn getting weaker and weaker, then how does it fit that we are so overpowered in the eyes of the Ascians that we encroach upon the gods (possibly the first WoL after your theory)? Shouldn't they know even stronger ones than us from the past? Or are we outliers in that we are, for some strange reason, stronger than what we should be? It sounds like the last one in the MSQ, but why?

On the topic of Ala Mhigo - not a big fan of it, honestly. Too warlike for my taste, and too selfcentered.