Tanks&Healers; please focus on Role first, then DPS

I feel like it's not really necessary for people to make a thread every time they run into bad players.

A good player will heal/tank and put out appropriate dps while doing so. A bad player will not.

Your issue is with bad players, not healers/tanks dpsing. Those bad players most likely don't even come to the forums and even if they did they probably wouldn't change anything after reading your thread aimed at them.

Has it ever occurred to some of you that some tanks and healers don't want to DPS? I'm not sure why focusing on their primary role makes someone a bad player.

Abandoning the main purpose of your role purely to put out more DPS is being a bad player. Also, someone could be an absolutely amazing black mage, but are still learning the healer role. If a tank pulls way too many mobs for the healer to handle whilst wearing a full set of STR accessories, that's the tanks fault. It's the tanks main role to take damage, not otherwise.

Nobody is saying that players shouldn't DPS, but it doesn't make someone a bad player if they don't. A lot of people play those roles because they don't enjoy DPSing in the first place. Don't get me wrong - I main a healer and DPS whenever I can, but I don't put the fight at risk of wiping because I'm focusing on something other than the job I chose.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Has it ever occurred to some of you that some tanks and healers don't want to DPS? I'm not sure why focusing on their primary role makes someone a bad player.

Abandoning the main purpose of your role purely to put out more DPS is being a bad player. Also, someone could be an absolutely amazing black mage, but are still learning the healer role. If a tank pulls way too many mobs for the healer to handle whilst wearing a full set of STR accessories, that's the tanks fault. It's the tanks main role to take damage, not otherwise.

Nobody is saying that players shouldn't DPS, but it doesn't make someone a bad player if they don't. A lot of people play those roles because they don't enjoy DPSing in the first place. Don't get me wrong - I main a healer and DPS whenever I can, but I don't put the fight at risk of wiping because I'm focusing on something other than the job I chose.

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Okay, you don't want to dps. You would rather... sit there doing nothing during a period of no or little damage? Looking pretty and essentially afking during the boring parts of a fight don't make you a valuable party member.

Nobody is expecting the healer to dps when the tank pulls four groups of mobs and is actually in danger of dying, but on regular pulls or boss fights where there is a long lull in damage and you're just sitting there doing nothing because "I'm a healer and I just refuse to do any damage! Hrmph!" is, frankly, stupid. You're pressing a keybind to make either an ally's health go up or an enemy's health go down, it's not like it's some astronomically different concept.

You people are far too into your disgustingly exaggerated and unrealistic extremes. Nobody has ever bitched at a whm for not holy spamming during a huge pull that the tank is dying on. Nobody expects that. You create that scenario in your mind and then use it to justify your indignation at being expected to contribute SOMETHING in periods of low damage. In reality, it's more expected for a healer to do their primary job, healing, and then when capable they should swap to cleric and toss in as much extra dps as they can without risking the group. No good player will have any kind of trouble doing that.

What you're saying by only wanting to sit and heal and do nothing else is that you only want to do the bare minimum required by your role and nothing more. You don't want to be valuable to your team and you don't want to help them defeat the encounter any more than you physically have to.

Edit to clarify: the "yous" in this post are mostly generalized and not aimed at this specific poster, only at those who were being referred to as not wanting to dps.

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What you're saying by only wanting to sit and heal and do nothing else

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Way to misrepresent the poster you're quoting. They never said they didn't want to dps at all, just not primarily.

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Originally Posted by MisterLucie

What you're saying by only wanting to sit and heal and do nothing else is that you only want to do the bare minimum required by your role and nothing more.

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So you mean like every DPS ever?

Yeah, people go cocky sometimes with their classes and they forget their main focus. A smart player will analize the party's capabilities and their own before trying to pull that "extra". I'm not against healer/tank DPS at all, but your primary job must be respected in order to accomplish the second one. To be fair, the same goes to these lazy DPS that stick with the boss and they don't do a single mechanic.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Way to misrepresent the poster you're quoting. They never said they didn't want to dps at all, just not primarily.

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They said there are people who don't want to dps at all, and those are the ones I'm referring to. The "you" is more generalized and not specifically at that poster.

Though I did touch on that specific poster bringing up the regurgitated "we might wipe if I dps and don't pay attention to healing" because that's a ridiculous assertion and no good player will ever be so focused on putting out damage that they'll somehow forget they're a healer...

...which brings me back to the original point of this entire thread only being aimed at bad players, and not specifically healers/tanks who dps.

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"we might wipe if I dps and don't pay attention to healing" because that's a ridiculous assertion and no good player will ever be so focused on putting out damage that they'll somehow forget they're a healer...

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It's very easy:

1. Be caught up to want to have all dot and Bane before dropping Cleric
2. Have a tank stand in bad they should have avoided
3. Dead tank
4. Wipe

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

It's very easy:

1. Be caught up to want to have all dot and Bane before dropping Cleric
2. Have a tank stand in bad they should have avoided
3. Dead tank
4. Wipe

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That sounds like the tank stepped in something that completely one shot them, which in no way is the healer's fault. If they actually survived it then any decent healer would be able to quickly get out of cleric as soon as the damage happens and save them with an instant bene/tetra/lustrate/whatever.

In my opinion, a healer that doesn't DPS when they are familiar with the content are just being lazy or bad. I have seen tanks doing their best, using defensive CDs, self-healing, mitigating alot of damage while the healer was just there, looking pretty wandering around, doing nothing. I never said anything to these healers, but IMO they are not good at all.

Excuse-me, but using cure II every 7 seconds is not doing a healers job, it's just being lazy. If you are there needing to heal a lot, using AoE heals, dispelling debuffs, dodging mechanics and keeping the party alive and doesn't have time to DPS, then sure, you are doing your primary job and thats great. but if you are in a simpler content and you have alot of time to DPS and don't do it, to me you are the same as a DPS that do only 300 DPS while they could be doing 1000+.

When I am healing, I always try to contribute with some DPS, not only because it makes the run go faster, but because it's fun aswell.

What irks me about this thread and ones like them is that people act as if dpsing while you're a tank/healer is somehow a magnet for tragedy when in reality it's only bad players that can't handle it, because it's actually extremely easy and gives a little bit of excitement to what are otherwise boring roles in anything under extreme/savage. It's too easy for people to notice that the person who screwed up and caused a wipe was in cleric stance and then instantly "That's the problem!"

If I made a thread for every dumb party member I get on a daily basis who plays their role poorly or messes up a mechanic and causes a wipe this entire forum would be completely spammed to hell and back. Why do people act as if it's somehow a different matter when it comes to this? It's not. It's bad players being bad at whatever they're doing, and all the threads in the world won't change it because they don't care to improve.

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That sounds like the tank stepped in something that completely one shot them

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Not really, a tank doing a NORMAL trash pull (just one group) in something like Stone Vigil normal, you have time to, Bio, Miasma, Bio 2, Ruin 2 (for Bio 2 to be on mob), Bane, drop cleric, adlo, physick, put cleric up again and keep dpsing. But if the tank got hit by an aoe, forget the Bane or forget the tank. That includes the fairy doing half the job while you dps. It's not that the tank is one-shot, it's that you pass 5 GCDs not healing the tank.

If the tank is badly geared, not using cooldowns, or pulling double or triple pulls, forget having time to Bane.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Not really, a tank doing a NORMAL trash pull (just one group) in something like Stone Vigil normal, you have time to, Bio, Miasma, Bio 2, Ruin 2 (for Bio 2 to be on mob), Bane, drop cleric, adlo, physick, put cleric up again and keep dpsing. But if the tank got hit by an aoe, forget the Bane or forget the tank. That includes the fairy doing half the job while you dps. It's not that the tank is one-shot, it's that you pass 5 GCDs not healing the tank.

If the tank is badly geared, not using cooldowns, or pulling double or triple pulls, forget having time to Bane.

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If the tank gets hit by an aoe it's their own fault. You didn't force them to ignore the glowing orange indicator while you were contributing dps

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

If the tank gets hit by an aoe it's their own fault. You didn't force them to ignore the glowing orange indicator while you were contributing dps

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That's true but forget your commend if you let the tank die, even if it's their own fault. People assume you should prevent shit like that, rather than dps more.

How about this. As a WHM, I always focus healing first but I do dps when I have a window of opportunity to do so. I say as long as the tank or healer can dps WITHOUT SACRIFICING A WIPE then let them dps? It's not hurting anyone? Now then, if they do cause a wipe then obviously they need to focus on their main role a little more. Healer needs to focus healing or tank needs to tank. But if they can keep the dpsing under control then you all don't need to worry about it. That's just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Not really, a tank doing a NORMAL trash pull (just one group) in something like Stone Vigil normal, you have time to, Bio, Miasma, Bio 2, Ruin 2 (for Bio 2 to be on mob), Bane, drop cleric, adlo, physick, put cleric up again and keep dpsing. But if the tank got hit by an aoe, forget the Bane or forget the tank. That includes the fairy doing half the job while you dps. It's not that the tank is one-shot, it's that you pass 5 GCDs not healing the tank.

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No, see, the solution to that is completely simple because you just forget about finishing your dps rotation and focus on immediately saving the tank. You adapt to the situation. It's not a set in stone thing that if you swap to cleric you absolutely have to finish your dps rotation before swapping out.

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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I'm gonna laugh so hard if this is true bahaha

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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lmao, let's say thats true... if our DPS skills are disabled while in battle, when we will be able to use it? stone III in Ul Dah Lalas I guess.

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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Oh god. If this was true I would really hope they upped the damage taken in dungeons so there's something to do. Standing there doing nothing for 10 seconds is not my idea of fun gameplay. Especially when the last mob of a pull seems to be at 10% for ages when (I'm guessing) both dps expect the other to finish it off. Quite often I have to take my hand of the Stoneskin button and kill it myself. >_>

Come to think of it I came up with a better idea. Put a smart-healing component (automatically targeted at the lowest health party member) onto every dps skill for healers, so people can still fulfill their "pure healer" fantasy whilst actually contributing during times of low/no damage taken.

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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Then we damage those monster by... cure! (Undead for specific)

I'm going to say this straight up:

I have seen SO MANY HEALERS/TANKS saying they are 'one of the good ones', only to blame the other healer for not solo healing phase X While they DPS. There are some parts where it's reasonable. Phase 1 of A1S is easily solo healed. Phase 1 of Thordan EX is easily solo healed. The issue becomes when they try to DPS 24/7 and think that makes them a good healer.


And every tank/healer I meet that says "well I'm one of the good ones ;)" ultimately has proven that they're not - because they let a tank die, a dps die, or someone die to unavoidable damage. It is not that 'the tank stands in stupid' and dies. It is that 'two tanks took holy blade dance with their teeth while the healer was DPS'ing and only one healer doing their job isn't enough to keep two DPS tanks up who don't want to mitigate while the other healer dps's."

Like I said. Focus on your role first (Tank - Mitigation/threat. Healer - Healing/mitigation) and then dps. I'm not saying don't dps at all - I encourage dps when it's comfortable. But if someone dies own up to it.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

"Having jobs focus on their job on this game? Nah, too busy to do it. Let's just push DPS meta into every role! Y'know, we'll have the support from some players who never experienced the whole FF franchise anyway and are used to it in other games."

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heh, actually, in the FF franchise, tanks have some monstrous damaging moves (PLD ftw). But again, traditionnal FFs are all about glasscannons/behemoth/supports/mages anyway, not the trinity

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Originally Posted by Donjo

When it comes to what a Tank usually is in an MMO - a Traditional Tank - Paladin comes closer to that than anything else in the game, whereas DRK/WAR are the oddballs.

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Still missing significant Crowd Control to be a true traditional tank, but yeah they are the closest to the real thing.

But there is no crowd control at all in FFxiv (who has used sleeping or binding in a life & death situation since early 2.0 when noone had appropriate gear ?)

CC is almost completly dead in Group PvE. Most MMOs that still have CC are needing it only for PvP purpose and maybe some Solo PvE.

This mainly started because people wer too impatient trying to get world first on Alex savage when it was meant to be gear threw a few weeks. This is pretty much the reason people keep complaining about PLD dps.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Nah, brah. I already know how DRK works. They're the "tank" class that listens to Hawthorn Heights in a dark room while cutting themselves to get power. Why anyone would want a tank class like that is beyond my understanding. PLD on the other hand is THE tank class that stands at the forefront of society. Standing up to all evil with a sword in one hand to deliver justice and a shield in another hand to protect all he cherishes from harm. PLD is the type of class that your parents tell you they're proud of you while DRK is the type of class that your parents just sigh and wish you would move out of the basement.


Of course I would. I have to uphold justice.

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DRK is actually represents justice more than PLD. They kill off corrupt knights and priests who use their power to benefit themselves all the while causing problems for the common people.

PLD is preaty much a body guard. But yes I hate the current tank meta of need higher dps I'd love to be able to sit at 20k in hp.

Offensive healers are awesome, as long as they don't let anyone dies.

Tanks with Strength accessories can be good in specific content but not in some content (mostly the ones that sync your level or ilevel). Playing as a healer with these Str tanks in low level dungeons is annoying. It's ok for them to sacrifice some Vit for Str in content that they're way overgeared but in level-synced content if they have full Str accessories they're gonna have less Vit than the content designed for they to have, thus forcing the healer to stay in healing stance all the time to save their lazy ass. Healer's attacks are better than Str tank's attacks anyway. Sacrificing healer's chance to attack for Str tank isn't a good thing.

I only switch to Deliverance for quick double cleaving, and when there is downtime from boss and I need to help with mechanics. I NEVER stay in Deliverance longer than a double cleave(I can triple but that is very risky) otherwise. I wear VIT rings only, the rest STR. Kinda hard to find a balance.

For healing, this depends on the rate of incoming damage the tank is receiving. If they are receiving so much where a Divine Seal'd Regen(which is a free cure I just about) is doing nothing for them, then I can't DPS.

I have had the pleasure of healing a WAR that full time'd deliverance but at least he used CDs. I can't say the same about the PLD I had in fractal the other day.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Honestly, I think people should push their DPS as much as they can.

That said, they shouldn't forget that their foremost duty is to either heal or tank. Healing or tanking shouldn't come at the cost of DPS.

Tank and healer DPS can speed things up immensely, but a lack of restraint can cause wipes...and wipes definitely don't speed things up.

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add to this DPS which can avoid AoE's and don't, then will come the big stuff from the Boss, so the Healers are 'forced' to heal them instead of the Tank or healer DPS.. and there you go.

in a trinity system, all should do what their role calls for first off. Then, the DPS will come.

DPS have to do damage AND avoid all that they can.. I've seen so many standing right there and thinking the Healer will take care of them (newsflash: Tanks needs to be kept alive.. ) a dead DPS can be a wipe, even if healers and tanks are doing their jobs.

The trend here is mostly because everyone wants to rush things out.

if you clear it in 2 more minutes, it's still a clear versus trying to do it in 2 min less, but wiping.. and waste time retrying it, with uncertainty that you'll succeed this time, then, a third time, if no RQuitters are gone after 1 attempt lololol

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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I'm actually not going to be surprised if they disable cleric stance in instanced content much like they already have in PVP.

And while we're throwing opinions left and right, back in 2.X and even now in 3.X I still can't help but wish MNK was a tank Job instead of WAR. WAR has always felt like a DPS except for the moment holmgang goes out. It works and I enjoyed it as a tank, but then there's this feeling that Monk could have been so much more in line with PLD.

Get rid of the directional requirements, put enmity generators on True Strike, Snap Fist, Arm of the destroyer, and Rockbreaker, and allow the already established combo system. You have this feeling of always needing to weave your attacks depending on the situation, but having a solution for everything. This would have also allowed One Ilm Punch to actually be useful because either MNK was always in the party, or PLD's sheild allowed it to soak up any extra damage coming out. MNK would also have a more useful anti-knockback than WAR through shoulder tackle (after it got down from 90sec).

Greased Lightning could simply switch out attack damage or speed for a defensive gain; their moving so fluidly and swiftly that landing a direct hit would be difficult or recieve bonus healing. Fist of Earth for tank stance. Monk would also provide traited Mantra, a self heal, evasion buff for trash, Int down, silence, stun (possibly two), and it wouldn't be doing absurd burst damage which would have kept it and PLD inline of DPS.

MNK's would essentially be the Shonen main character that always fights with its fist and can take godly levels of punishment. WAR could go onto be a self sustaining, berserking DPS in the same armor as DRG. And quite frankly MNK could have gone heavy armor. Lots of the shonen type wear weighted gear, actual martial artist do as well. Every other patch we could have had armor that was knightly, and then armor that was more flowing. The bulky fist weapons would have worked with the bulky armor as well.

But eh, just rambling for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

for healers, in patch 3.2, yoshi p is gonna disable every dps ability while in battle, so y'all can shut up about saying healers are bad/not playing to full potential/whatever by not dpsing...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::cool:

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please don't state false information.

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Originally Posted by Istede

The problem is that the content is either so easy that a competent healer is left with a tremendous amount of downtime, or it is tuned so highly that a healer (or tank) is required to put out a relatively tremendous amount of damage to meet checks. If healers lacked DPS skills in this game I wouldn't play one. Outside of progression raiding and a few notable portions of fights, if you were to only heal in this game you would spend a huge amount of time staring at the screen doing nothing. In fact, you can see people doing this all the time in duty finder. I don't understand how that is fun, but that's just me.

It is unfortunate that many people aspire to this meta without proper knowledge of their jobs, or a lack of situational awareness (or basic courtesy) that can result in wipes, hurt feelings, etc. Not much that can be done about player attitudes.

I can honestly say that I sigh with relief when a tank does a big pull in dps stance, at least it gives me something to do.

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And herein lies the problem. FFXIV is practically crying out for a midcore range where job capability is reasonably tested without pushing into the level of A3 savage. Thordan EX is a decent example, however we need dungeons that actually push players to the point where a healer on "downtime" means you're going to be hurting. Unfortunately, SE seems loathe to press the casual crowd. While I appreciate that mindset given FFXIV's initial launch, it's been two years. Time to start establishing a middle ground for those itching for a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And herein lies the problem. FFXIV is practically crying out for a midcore range where job capability is reasonably tested without pushing into the level of A3 savage. Thordan EX is a decent example, however we need dungeons that actually push players to the point where a healer on "downtime" means you're going to be hurting. Unfortunately, SE seems loathe to press the casual crowd. While I appreciate that mindset given FFXIV's initial launch, it's been two years. Time to start establishing a middle ground for those itching for a challenge.

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Thordan is a great job check for healers, but very straight forward for all other roles. It's a perfectly tuned fight, we need more midcore content like Thordan. :S

As a returning player who decided to level BLM first this tanking DPS revolution is a new thing to me and I've struggled a bit as a DPS with it. The hate some tanks generate in 50+ content is poor to say the least, I'm sure the extra 4 dmg the PLD is doing in Sword Oath is helping but not as much as giving the DPS some room to work with would.

@MisterLucie, my entire point was based on people putting DPS before their main job or role, and the people calling other players bad because they'd rather focus on their main role than DPS.

Of course if there's a huge gap between heals, it would make sense to DPS. I am referring to times where heals are needed but others think their DPS is more important. And yes, this does happen. Those are the bad players, not those who are focusing on their own role primarily.

Standing there and doing nothing through a blank period is a completely different matter and wasn't what I was talking about.