Are you seriously THAT lost SE?

A bit of a counter-rant here, very stream of consciousness and not well thought out but here it is anyway.

The current content is an anomaly based on DRK. And I'm not just talking about magic TBs. Its about DPS as well. Currently DRK's average DPS between MTing and OTing, on paper (not so much in practice because many groups will use an MT DRK but not allow them to stance dance or drop Grit entirely), is pretty neck and neck with WAR. Being able to bring two extremely high DPS tanks to raids that have high DPS checks, with the ideal MT out of the two being able to take magic damage like someone sneezed on them, is a function of this content. Its a raid tier designed for high DPS tanks with a lot of active mitigation, favoring magic, and also AoE.

The DPS check only seems high because it assumes two high DPS tanks, and for some reason the devs mistakenly assumed that players would be able to or even want to take advantage of any extra "tankiness" that PLD may or may not have to allow for extra DPS from other sources, whatever people think those might be (healer DPS or whatever... ) DPS checks were still a real thing before alex Savage. Sure fucking Bennus in T12 and the mad-dash burn at the end of T6 seem like facerolls now but in early progression those were still harsh and demanding checks.

I think SE is watching and if my confidence in them is founded, A5-8S are going to be some absolutely wickedly high amounts of tank and raid damage and nasty i-hate-myself-and-my-staticmates-mechanics a la T7S, stuff so twisted and demonic that worries of a DPS check will be the last thing on our minds. They could even implement DPS-hold mechanics. People think things like Digititis and shit are hard mechanics, no, those are a joke. SE has done some genuinely chaotic and evil mechanics and thus far I've not seen anything like them in Alex Savage.

Basically people are crying loudly about DPS checks that require certain jobs or party compositions to meet, so I think what's going to happen is that they are going to make a mechanically brutal raid with minimal DPS checks. Right now the raids amount to "how hard can you do your dummy rotation on this boss while mentally scratching your head and rubbing your tummy at the same time" Once Akh Morn-style TBs and pre-nerf/savage Voice/Shriek-style mechanics start happening again SE is going to laugh and cackle "don't you wish you were just meeting DPS checks now? bwhaha..."

There's also the fact that people are still crying about PLD's low DPS when they are extremely late to the party and it was only a relevant concern in the first couple of weeks in progression. As of now, PLD's are clearing everything in the game, and I believe the first PLD group cleared with PLD as MT at the gear level for which the content was intended. DRK+WAR where able to cheese it with slaying and melds but once everyone is at the gear level SE designed the fights for PLD is as able to clear as ever, and a group carrying a PLD even more so if they are not stuffing that PLD into the MT slot since the other two tanks shine so much more in terms of DPS by MTing. It doesn't even matter now, yet the people complaining aren't world first or even server first people.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

"Adjustments will be made to address TP issues, but no adjustment will be made to Paladin's DPS."

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Haha. Welp. This sort of speaks for itself. The current meta is 100% focused on dps. Contradicting your own meta can't go anywhere good.

SE is incredibly lost in terms of tank design right now.

1. WAR is the "DPS tank"

This is a mistake SE has made in the 1.0 series, 2.0, and again in 3.0. In 1.0 WAR was OP, in 2.0 WAR was crap (garbage), in 3.0 WAR is OP. They need to figure out after 3 times that this doesn't work. To be honest, in traditional Japanese fashion somebody should resign their position to demonstrate remorse for making the same mistake three times. As the saying goes, 「仏の顔も三度まで」. "Even the Buddha will not forgive the same mistake thrice"

2. DRK is the "magic" tank.

Considering there are 11 physical-only skills and statuses involved in tanking, this is just a terrible idea that has pigeonholed them into making bosses like the Manipulator where Regen+the Fairy can actually keep tank fully healed and will even overheal between tank busters without any healer or tank actions.

3. PLD is the "defensive" tank

Any content actually tuned such that PLD's defensive utility (like Divine Veil or Stoneskin) is actually useful would probably demand a PLD like current content demands DPS. Any content that requires multiple Silences or Pacification likewise will heavily favor PLD (remember Turn 2?). Any content that doesn't make use of any of these will not have a place for PLD. Also, in the former case, as parties gear up PLD will lose its place. PLD needs an option to sacrifice utility for DPS like the other tank jobs do so that they can remain competitive at the farm stage.

What they've done is fail to give any tank a complete toolkit (though WAR is probably the closest right now) or go to any effort to ensure that every combination of tanks makes a full toolkit. (PLD+DRK lacks slashing debuff and Path, WAR+DRK lacks Silence and Pacification, WAR+PLD loses out on DPS in almost all situations)

@ Syzygian PLDs generally have OTed in the Alex Savage clears. (I certainly did.) It makes the most sense considering all the physical damage is on OT. They do usually MT the last phase because WAR is relatively poorly suited to MTing the lasers (in the most stupid sense that it's extended magic damage).

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

pre-nerf/savage Voice/Shriek-style mechanics start happening again SE is going to laugh and cackle "don't you wish you were just meeting DPS checks now? bwhaha..."

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Everyone will say "no" since second coil (+savage) was 20x more fun and had wayyyy cooler mechanics than Alex savage. Except maybe magnet beams, they're pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

SE is incredibly lost in terms of tank design right now.

1. WAR is the "DPS tank"

This is a mistake SE has made in the 1.0 series, 2.0, and again in 3.0. In 1.0 WAR was OP, in 2.0 WAR was crap (garbage), in 3.0 WAR is OP.

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Yeahhh making a DPS tank (that can survive just as well as the other tanks, don't worry!) is stupid since it just becomes the new normal. Without insane utility the other tanks just become "the tank without DPS." Dark Knight keeps up on DPS (and reprisal/delirium are pretty rad utility) so it'll probably be fine unless they make something that can threaten a paladin's ability to deal with physical busters. Paladin, though...

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Everyone will say "no" since second coil (+savage) was 20x more fun and had wayyyy cooler mechanics than Alex savage. Except maybe magnet beams, they're pretty cool.

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Magnet beams and bubbles are awesome mechanics (though I do think magnet beams were a tad hard to see on a smaller screen for MT. It would have been nice if opposite and same tethers were color-coded or something for visibility). Unfortunately Throttle, DPS down being forced on healers, Puddings, the DPS check, and the pathetically weak tank damage make it a pretty terrible fight all around. Not to mention how poorly implemented the tethers were (why couldn't you just use the tethers from t13 SE? They're perfect.)

Man do I miss when you actually used your skills. In A4 half your skills don't even work. Half your skills that effect magic damage don't even work. Maybe 3/4 of the fight your skills that do work don't even work. What the hell is "Darkness" damage supposed to mean anyway?

so long as fights have a reliance on dps pld will be left behind.

I don't raid as tank but have played as pld since I started the game and so although I like to see big numbers (main blm) I also like to see the defensive capabilities of pld shine. but as stated you cant make content that requires that level of defence without pushing one of the other tank classes out.

its fine that war is the dps tank but really pld and drk should be at the same level of capability so its a preference to the player on who they play not all pld players being forced to switch because they cant maintain high dps equal to war or drk.

really all tank classes should be very well balanced in mitigation and offense because otherwise this kind of situation will always crop up. there will always be some preference due to utility but the balance should allow the content to be cleared with any group makeup. not always the easiest thing to do im sure.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Maybe this will make tanks...you know..........tank......

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You'd have to change both DRK and WAR for that to happen. Yoshida was talking about PLD, so such an approach is very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Wait, what, you complain that square enix finally understands?
Making DPS-checks was never a good idea from beginning and when they are now adjusting content to fix that you complain about DPS from a tank?

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DPS Checks are fine, but only if DDs can do 2-3x the DMG of Tanks. As soon as 2 out of 3 Tanks gets DPS equal or close to DDs, we have a major issue that needs to be hotfixed, now be live since 5 month.

This is what I saw from another thread.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Shield Swipe
Is now an ability and does not trigger global cooldown.
Recast time has been adjusted to 15 seconds.
Potency has been reduced from 210 to 150.

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So yah, what do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

DPS Checks are fine, but only if DDs can do 2-3x the DMG of Tanks. As soon as 2 out of 3 Tanks gets DPS equal or close to DDs, we have a major issue that needs to be hotfixed, now be live since 5 month.

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Tanks should always be 75% to 85% DPS of a DPS. Otherwise DPS replace tanks as tanks.

If DPS did 3000 damage and tanks only did 1000 damage I would replace the tank with a dps to kill things faster. That is how games work.

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Originally Posted by Jican

Which is why you need to change the meta so that that exact thing doesn't happen. Make the defense and massive pools of HP mean something so that DPS simply CAN'T tank, at all.

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That would require a massive stat overhaul of threat and damage. Plus if that was the case healers would have to be able to heal a ton more. Which means healer threat would be through the roof. I could imagine healers putting on "tank" gear and becoming tanks themselves if that is the case. Which happened in some games when they did just that.

They only needed enough HP to survive one attack and in raids had tanks intercept high damage moves.

Faily limit.

So, that means ...
1. Tanks would have to be able to heal and sustain themselves some how.
2. Healers would have to heal a ton more.

If Tanks are able to keep themselves alive without a healer, that means dungeons would probably chuck the healer and just have a Tank and 3 DPS. If healers are buffed in healing then that means healers would become tanks instead. Which isn't hard, i've done it in low level instances, I imagine with increased healing it would be even easier to do.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

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Absolute garbage. Although, it is still preliminary and they haven't yet said what they're going to do about the change in how tank dps is calculated yet, so there's always a chance Pld won't be completely stiffed this patch.

I agree with SE for the most part. If anything add damage to PLD flash only and increase emnity. Besides that don't raise dps. That's the dumbest and unbalanced thing you can ever do. 2 other classes you can play if you still want to be a tank. PLD has to have to lowest dps due to its insane mitigation tanking wise. Reason why it's over looked game content doesn't match it. If yall get off rage mode you could see you been typing how much PLD does not match game content. Everyone is making it sound like PLD is the worse tank ever but in the 2.0 series when I came in they're were considered the greatest thing walking......new content now they're garbage? Some contradiction going on here and it's not SE. Just want your favorite class to be op from what I'm reading honestly.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

I agree with SE for the most part. If anything add damage to PLD flash only and increase emnity. Besides that don't raise dps. That's the dumbest and unbalanced thing you can ever do. 2 other classes you can play if you still want to be a tank. PLD has to have to lowest dps due to its insane mitigation tanking wise. Reason why it's over looked game content doesn't match it. If yall get off rage mode you could see you been typing how much PLD does not match game content. Everyone is making it sound like PLD is the worse tank ever but in the 2.0 series when I came in they're were considered the greatest thing walking......new content now they're garbage? Some contradiction going on here and it's not SE. Just want your favorite class to be op from what I'm reading honestly.

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Warriors have a better mitigation then a paladin, that's saying alot.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Tanks should always be 75% to 85% DPS of a DPS. Otherwise DPS replace tanks as tanks.

If DPS did 3000 damage and tanks only did 1000 damage I would replace the tank with a dps to kill things faster. That is how games work.

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Which is why you need to change the meta so that that exact thing doesn't happen. Make the defense and massive pools of HP mean something so that DPS simply CAN'T tank, at all.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Just want your favorite class to be op from what I'm reading honestly.

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No, actually, I just want the job I'm using to have a purpose. Instead of designing new content to fit jobs, they should instead fit content around all jobs available. Warrior is a prime example. They have so much utility and dps to boot, why go for anything else? The new content seems to have been made FOR Drk, so let's not even touch that.

I don't want anything to be OP. What I want is balance. I want to be able to wear the gear made for me and not be called a scrub because I don't go full Str. I want to be able to need on gear I can actually use and provide utility to my group. I don't want to be excluded because I don't enjoy the other tank jobs in the game and pld brings nothing to the table. Is that too much to ask to be allowed to enjoy a job?

Shield swipe is a tiny minuscule buff in raid content where things can't be pacified, assuming it uses no TP.

TP management likely got nerfed because of the removal of swipe from the GCD, gorings adjustment isn't enough to bring management back up to par let alone buff it. Lol considering shield bash for TP balance. What the hell is that ability still doing on the GCD.

This patch is a net nerf for PLD because of something much more important - they removed the LB penalty for bringing two of be same class.

There is basically no reason not to take double WAR to everything now.


Edit: Anyone else find the current attitude with tank balance sadly similar to the attitude during the 1.0 beta.

As per always it would be nice if we got some kind of interaction from the community team, so disappointing checking he dev tracker every day to see nothing but replies on fluff content.

when the patch note states that Shield Swipe is changed into an Ability (instead of a Weaponskill), that means it will not have a TP cost.

IE Brutal Swing, Reprisal, Low Blow. They're abilities, not Weaponskills. No TP cost.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

This patch is a net nerf for PLD because of something much more important - they removed the LB penalty for bringing two of be same class.
There is basically no reason not to take double WAR to everything now.

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Dungeons and trials accessible solo via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will no longer fill more slowly when multiple members of the same class/job are in the party

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it's only for DF stuff, not high-end content. It's actually a fine change.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Warriors have a better mitigation then a paladin, that's saying alot.

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Explain how if they did then why was PLD choice of the year last 2.0 till now? Again the only mitigation warriors received in 3.0. Raw intuition, heal buff on Defiance, and equilibrium. The CD timers are still the same for main defensive cd. So in other words we was wrong for an entire series??? Meh I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Explain how if they did then why was PLD choice of the year last 2.0 till now? Again the only mitigation warriors received in 3.0. Raw intuition, heal buff on Defiance, and equilibrium. The CD timers are still the same for main defensive cd. So in other words we was wrong for an entire series??? Meh I don't think so.

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WARs mitigation was on par with PLD's since 2.1. Players just took a pretty long time to realize it, but for example, I was personally MTing T13 as a WAR and my healers were saying that it was easier to manage than a PLD because I was able to IB every single flare breath while still also having it for every tank busters, where the PLD was just taking them naked and keeping all of its mitigation for Flattens and Akh Morns. WAR didn't get much more mitigation from HW, but didn't need it at all anyway.

Savage is getting added this patch though. So at least for this round WAR got a buff. Edit: Party finder. My mistake, savage wont be affected, not that it matters, double war beat A4S before any PLDs did anyway.

3.2 we can hope will be different but regardless of how good it is for other classes, for PLD right now it's adding insult to injury.

Re the bit where it is an ability yes that's exactly why I said it, but until it's explicitly said or seen in game there is nothing wrong with treating it as an assumption.

Back on point though this isn't anywhere near as huge as some people are saying it is. It is barely a shave off of the dos whilst tanking gap about 40-50 off of the 300+ gap. PLD still doesn't even have any extra mitigation or actually functioning/non gimmick utility to show for it.

Edit: spelling

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Originally Posted by Jican

I don\\'t want to be excluded because I don\\'t enjoy the other tank jobs in the game and pld brings nothing to the table. Is that too much to ask to be allowed to enjoy a job?

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I can understand how you feel and not being mean or bias to the situation either. If they give them better AOE and more emnity the class it\\'s self would be fine. As far as the balancing goes it\\'s almost impossible to balance out 3 classes for one job. The whole point of 3 different classes is to have 3 different experiences while trying to achieve the same goal. I know content is bias but at the same time honestly tanking in ffxiv is not actually tanking since you depend on the healer and helping the healer with CD in either rotation or properly timed. PLD have the best mitigation giving them more dps or nerfing other dps for a balance creates more problems. Thats what you get when you have multiple classes for one job.

[QUOTE=Freyyy;3410267]WARs mitigation was on par with PLD\\'s since 2.1. Players just took a pretty long time to realize it, but for example, I was personally MTing T13 as a WAR and my healers were saying that it was easier to manage than a PLD because I was able to IB every single flare breath while still also having it for every tank busters, where the PLD was just taking them naked and keeping all of its mitigation for Flattens and Akh Morns./QUOTE]

Hmm good point at the same time you're a skilled player. Not knocking other players but skills can definitely change a view about a class. Only reason why I say PLD have better mitigation their cd timers refresh faster then ours while us warriors have to manage our stacks to a known fight. If a PLD manage their CD with shield bash a lot of attacks could either be stuffed or mitigated. My only real defense argument for PLD lack of AOE use and emnity. No sense war and drk can spam their aoes in a offensive way while pld just meh.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Only reason why I say PLD have better mitigation their cd timers refresh faster then ours.

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Huh.
Rampart : 90sec // Raw Intuition : 90sec
Sentinel : 180sec // Vengeance : 120sec
Bulwark : 180sec // Thrill of Battle : 120sec

Conva/Foresight/Awareness are all available to both, traits give Conva and Awareness an advantage on PLD, but WAR's Foresight is 90sec CD instead of 120 (but Foresight is so bad anyway it's not really a factor).

But most importantly, WARs have IB and managing stacks is not hard at all.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Huh.
Rampart : 90sec // Raw Intuition : 90sec
Sentinel : 180sec // Vengeance : 120sec
Bulwark : 180sec // Thrill of Battle : 120sec

Conva/Foresight/Awareness are all available to both, traits give Conva and Awareness an advantage on PLD, but WAR's Foresight is 90sec CD instead of 120 (but Foresight is so bad anyway it's not really a factor).

But most importantly, WARs have IB and managing stacks is not hard at all.

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Rampart != Raw Intuition. I don't know why people keep comparing the two. Raw Intuition is damage type specific while Rampart is not.

I agree though that WAR is definitely superior when looking at the CDs.

Paladin you have:

Rampart - 90s
Sentinel - 180s
Bulwark - 180s
Sheltron - 30s


Warrior:

Raw Intuition - 90s
Vengeance - 120s (this is the big one)
Thrill of Battle - 120s
Inner Beast - Every 5 Wrath Stacks
Equilibrium - 60s


PLD's main advantage is that Hallowed Ground can be used as a "I take no Damage" CD while waiting for other CDs to come back up. This lets them stack their CDs in certain situations.

Sheltron is huge for Paladin in physical fights. It's really strong in A3S but is generally over looked because Living Liquid just doesn't hit hard enough for healers to really care about tank damage all that much.

Equilibrium is the biggest benefit Warrior has atm. That thing can heal for a LOT on a Str WAR with Berserk rolling. It's insane how good it is. WAR rivals DRK as a MT for the current content tier thanks to Equilibrium.

The only way PLD will ever compete with WAR as a MT (note I said "compete", not better than) is if you have a really high damage physical fight where the tank busters are spread out long enough to allow the PLD to pool their CDs together. Sheltron will be really strong for the small bursts in between tank busters.

If SE goes that route though, everyone might as well shelve their DRK. Having a distinction between a "Magic" tank and a "Physical defensive" tank is just plain bad design.

I'm hoping they take a closer look at the DRK vs PLD distinction or simply tune fights in such a way that both can be viable (this is definitely possible). However, even if they manage to do that I don't think PLD will be a consideration since WAR can fill their role pretty effectively. You'd have to shove DRK out the door to give PLD a competing place in a raid.

Let's also not forget, despite the fact that WAR has really strong CDs and high DPS... no one wants to lose Storm's Path. That's probably the most overpowered ability in the WAR's tool kit that everyone tends to over look.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Just want your favorite class to be op from what I'm reading honestly.

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Reading this coming from a warrior makes me laugh pretty hard.

What i honestly don't get. Some people are telling us PLDs to wait for 3.2 Are you kidding me? wait another X months for that patch for stuff to be fixed?

Worst single target DPS Check.
Worst AoE DPS Check.

Skills mentioned in topic i wouldn't agree on. Situational as they may be. Cover has saved my PT plenty of times + I love that people actually go like, wtf... paladin just used cover.. AWESOME!
Tempered w. Awesome skill Shield bash love it. Swipe. Its not to bad...

Overall i have all the tank classes @60. Always played PLD as main will not change that, Kinda disappointed with the changes we are getting, But i'll jump the gun on that once it goes live.

Edit - Almost forgot.

Worst enmity, Check. Would love to see some higher multipliers on our DMG skills.

Why does everyone say foresight is bad? I just combo it with Vengeance and inner beast I feel super tanky after that. They still have tempered will, access to foresite bleeh, hallow ground, and sheltron on top of heal buffs for parties. And Freyyy have you seen the line of warriors lately omg my eyes hurt when I play with some of these warriors. Live in deliverance, can't keep aggro, parties dieing......I'm sure they know nothing of managing stacks besides fell cleaving life. After playing monk for a while when I do tank I dang near treat my group like babies keeping them from all harm haha.

Foresight isn't bad, but unlike other defensive CDs you can't just use Foresight alone to survive tank busters. It's best used to smooth over auto attack damage while out of tank stance, so... that kinda says a lot about Foresight. It's better than it was before, though, because Foresight actually scales with gear and due to bosses still hitting as hard as 2.0 ones it gives more mitigation than it did in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Gangaloo

Rampart != Raw Intuition. I don't know why people keep comparing the two. Raw Intuition is damage type specific while Rampart is not.

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I'm not comparing them at all. I'm just comparing the recast timers of their defensive abilities. I put Thrill of Battle against Bulwark too even tho Bulwark is only physical while Thrill is universal. It was not a comparison since the WAR defensive kit is working completely differently than the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

So in other words we was wrong for an entire series??? Meh I don't think so.

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Look around you at the average quality of the players you're playing with in duty finder. Do you really think it's that far fetched that the community has been collectively wrong? Final Coil was practically built around warrior CD timers and SCoB was great for them too with all the cleaves you can inner beast.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

What i honestly don't get. Some people are telling us PLDs to wait for 3.2 Are you kidding me? wait another X months for that patch for stuff to be fixed?

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It's not even that, its "wait even more for the possibility that maybe they'll stop thinking PLD is working as intended and actually fix the trainwreck that is the current state of tanking". The bizarre reluctance to actually fix a class that has become widely agreed on as the worst class in the game makes me think we should just assume the worst. Yoshida even acknowledged that Clemency and Divine Veil are garbage and yet did absolutely nothing to fix them.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

It's not even that, its "wait even more for the possibility that maybe they'll stop thinking PLD is working as intended and actually fix the trainwreck that is the current state of tanking". The bizarre reluctance to actually fix a class that has become widely agreed on as the worst class in the game makes me think we should just assume the worst. Yoshida even acknowledged that Clemency and Divine Veil are garbage and yet did absolutely nothing to fix them.

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That's the part I really don't get. Why not buff Clemency? If you know something sucks -fix it!

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Yoshida even acknowledged that Clemency and Divine Veil are garbage and yet did absolutely nothing to fix them.

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I would much rather have them test it against different types of encounters to see if they can make it more useful that way than do the WoW class pendulum every patch. They're slow about making changes because they're careful and want to get it right--while a little frustrating to deal with, I actually far prefer it to how some other developers jump the gun and overcompensate.

If there are problems with PLD that go beyond encounter design (there are), then it will become clearer to them what needs to be done as they analyze the data from the next tier or two of dungeons, trials, and raids.

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Originally Posted by Gangaloo

Let's also not forget, despite the fact that WAR has really strong CDs and high DPS... no one wants to lose Storm's Path. That's probably the most overpowered ability in the WAR's tool kit that everyone tends to over look.

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Easy fix to storm path problem. Give DRK a slashing resistance down effect can actually be easily done.

Dark Arts+ Scourge= slashing resistance down to mob.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Easy fix to storm path problem. Give DRK a slashing resistance down effect can actually be easily done.

Dark Arts+ Scourge= slashing resistance down to mob.

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They should lower the cost of a Dark Arts then, because it would be one more thing to DA in the rotation.
I think the best solution to put slashing debuff on DRK would be just put it on Delirium, as MNKs have the blunt debuff on their Dragon Kick. They would just have to separate the INT debuff from the resistance debuff in order for them to not conflict with eachother.

PLDs, whining even when things go their way!

Under no circumstances should PLD have the same DPS as DRK and WAR unless they all have the same defense but then why even have 3 different tanks? If they level out DPS you are back to 2.X where there was never any reason to have a WAR. It should be defense risk vs. DPS reward. Unfortunately current content doesn't make tank risk a real thing.

Content needs to be thought out more so it utilizes the strengths of all 3 tanks more and PLD should have more utility added to balance their lack of DPS. Its exactly the same as AST. Healers have great design that should be mimicked.

SE could make our Conjurer Subclass somehow useful. Currently we can use ONE Skill. The rest of it is just stupid.

- Make Cure scale with STR as Paladin and we would have a great 400 Potency Heal to support our Party. (Patch 3.1 with lvl 60 -> 250 HP Heal, serious SE? We have ~16.000 HP!)
- Make Raise an In-combat rezz, that we can help healers raising a fallen member as OT.

Or Remove Marauder and give us Puglist with:

- Featherfood, Second Wind, Internal Release and Mantra.


First of all, Paladin suffers so much of having such weak Sub Classes. If you wouldn't take any Skill out of them, it wouldn't make any real impact to your playstyle, as it is.

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Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

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Players will always favour more dps than utility of what a PLD could bring currently. Push phases faster the more deeps you have. You see this sort of stuff with Ravana where you bring one tank not two. So unless the devs make it so you have to-do x and y and have a and b. This sort of issues will be with us forever.