Void Ark to drop Esoteric parts for upgrade why?

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

I've been playing since Beta....

For starts, it's didn't happen until second coil, upgrade items weren't available in 2.0 & 2.1, secondly it never happened in the middle of a raids life span but towards the end of it.

My complaint isn't that the gear is being added either, it's that it's going to be obtained easier than it will in Savage if it is gained from a single weekly clear of the 24man raid. Left side gear should take multiple weeks much like how the Gordian Manifesto Pages from Savage work.

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Eso gear did the same thing to regular alex gear, I know there players that didn't even bother to step into alex and just went straight for eso gear.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

For starts, it's didn't happen until second coil, upgrade items weren't available in 2.0 & 2.1, secondly it never happened in the middle of a raids life span but towards the end of it.

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Oil of Time & Sands of Time were added to the Hunts NPC in 2.3, one major patch after the addition of the Second Coil of Bahamut.
Carboncoats & Carbontwines were added to the Hunts NPC in 2.5, one major patch after the addition of the Final Coil of Bahamut.

Gobcoats & Gobtwines being made more available in 3.1 isn't any different from what happened in the past.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Progression players have to have four weeks of A3S clears to get a Twine, why should players running the Void Ark be treated better? Especially when the Void Ark is a much smaller time investment and will have much lower skill requirements.

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Umm they did te same thing to every hunter remember? ppl hunted there bums off to get blood marks to upgrade from i100 to i110 them boom they added it in ST like candy.Not saying it was right but SE likes doing this

^ Very true, and i was rather annoyed to be honest when gear was made obtainable from hunts. I blamed that back then for the amount of bad players, who seemed to think hey gear =skill right? lol
Rather sad they keep going this route..

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

For starts, it's didn't happen until second coil, upgrade items weren't available in 2.0 & 2.1, secondly it never happened in the middle of a raids life span but towards the end of it.

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It didn't happen in the Binding Coil because tomestone items were already the same item level as Binding Coil's gear. No upgrade items were necessary.

Second Coil was added to the game on 3/26/14. Final Coil was added to the game on 10/28/14, 216 days later. Syrcus Tower, through which Oil of Time was available on a weekly lock out, and The Hunt, through which it was possible to obtain upgrade items with no weekly lock out at all, were added to the game on 7/7/14.

That was 103 days after 2.0 and 113 days before 2.2, so shortly before the middle of the raid's life span.

Final Coil, as mentioned above, was added on 10/28/14, and Heavensward early access began on 6/19/15, 242 days later. Both upgrade items were added to hunts in 2.5, on 1/20/15, 84 days after 2.4 and 154 days before 3.0. Carboncoat was available from the weekly quest at that same time and Carbontwine was added in 2.51, on 2/23/15, 118 days after 2.4 and 120 days before 3.0. This time both were available shortly before the middle of the raid's life span.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I don't get why people are complaining about this now. Has everyone forgotten when ST gave the upgrade items for tomestone gear months after the second coil had it? And then there was the weekly CT quest to get similar items as well. Coil/Alex raids have the incentive of you get a headstart by several months and are likely doing it with people who you are friends with.

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I think a key distinction here, is that way, waaaaaaay more players this time around can't complete the raid content because of difficulty. There's an even more polarizing gap in difficulty between what raiders had to go through, and how easy it will be to get through Void Ark/CT.

You don't have to agree with it, but I'm sure you can at least understand why players would be disheartened that a reward so difficult to obtain that they fought months to get it (or haven't even gotten it yet), suddenly becomes passe in an instant.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

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I think a key distinction here, is that way, waaaaaaay more players this time around can't complete the raid content because of difficulty. There's an even more polarizing gap in difficulty between what raiders had to go through, and how easy it will be to get through Void Ark/CT.

You don't have to agree with it, but I'm sure you can at least understand why players would be disheartened that a reward so difficult to obtain that they fought months to get it (or haven't even gotten it yet), suddenly becomes passe in an instant.

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What I am saying is all these sorts of things is never going to stay exclusive based on the game's track record. There's always going to be nerfs and catch up patches because you can't assume that A) everyone WILL do the raids or B) everyone can finish the raids quickly enough before they become irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I think a key distinction here, is that way, waaaaaaay more players this time around can't complete the raid content because of difficulty. There's an even more polarizing gap in difficulty between what raiders had to go through, and how easy it will be to get through Void Ark/CT.

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The counter-argument being that with waaaaaaay more players unable to clear the raid, it's even more important to make the upgrade items available to those players as soon as possible, especially since they should be done with Esoterics already, leaving that as the main route of gear improvement for them.

Where did this info come from?

The big problem i see here is that A lets say we can roll on the token cool but that's still going to be RNG hell and then B lets say when you op a random chest someone on the team can get a token :rolleyes: that sounds like so much more RNG hell that what's the point :P and if ppl can roll on tokens then what's to stop them from quitting the run like ppl did in WOD after they got there drop? SE just put the token on the old raid quest and make ppl run WOD and Void ark to get it. Hell id run all 4 if it stop the RNG lol

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and if ppl can roll on tokens then what's to stop them from quitting the run like ppl did in WOD after they got there drop?

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Maybe the fact that you need to beat the end boss to roll on it? That was in the live letter.

I guess the arch furniture and the 2 minions in the CT raids were supposed to do this.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Maybe the fact that you need to beat the end boss to roll on it? That was in the live letter.

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Ok that will be fine but they need to keep the RNG less as well or you will have some ppl running it 55 or 60 times with never getting one token and that can be bad iv seen ppl quit over RNG and i can't blame them

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Gearing guide says that you don't need the pages to get the gobitems, you can roll on them directly.

So yeah, this "I had to wait 3 weeks" is only if you didn't win roll on the item itself. And you had 2 rolls a week (A1S and A2S) on top of your pages, compared to people in Void Ark only getting 1 gobitem per week.

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a1s doesnt have any gobitem , AS2 have gobcoat and is 1 item for 8 players....so 1 every 8 weeks .....or burn pages on it (and u need 4? ...so 4 weeks)

Not gonna do this RNG madness again and wasting my precious time by this... crap!

I mean: I did that week around 30 Sycrus Tower for a Fu*beeep*g Sands of time and didnt got 1! I gave up and felt stupid for wasting so much time =.=

1 Most wanted item for 8 people is just *Beeeeep*!! >_>

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Originally Posted by RussW

Where did this info come from?

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Letter from the Producer Live XXV:

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Void Ark
It will be possible to purchase enhancement materials with an item known as ancient coins (name pending). While it’s a bit difficult at the moment to confirm this for sure, we are planning to start off by implementing the enhancement items for armor and accessories that can be purchased with Allagan tomestones of esoterics. Weapons will be a bit in the future.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Not gonna do this RNG madness again and wasting my precious time by this... crap!

I mean: I did that week around 30 Sycrus Tower for a Fu*beeep*g Sands of time and didnt got 1! I gave up and felt stupid for wasting so much time =.=

1 Most wanted item for 8 people is just *Beeeeep*!! >_>

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I ran ST something like 120ish times for my relic during 2.5 and only got 5-7 of them, this was after they added more to the raid. Whoever on the development team thinks RNG is a good system should be put on temporary leave until he changes his mind.

Never mind what I said here...

Alex Savage is a lot harder than the coils, and them starting to hand out some better gear is not suddenly gonna make the raids super easy or something... There are a ton of groups that have hit a wall with either A3S or A4S, and maybe it's best to help them out, before they punch their monitors and quits raiding all-together.

Why should people be handed relic weapons now when I had to work for mine back in 2.0?

"Omg you get gear but don't have to work as hard as me!" So uh... work smarter not harder? If you are doing raid content because you want gear and not because you like the challenge then you are certainly doing it wrong. Especially when you know you will get gear that is as good 3 to 6 months later.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What I am saying is all these sorts of things is never going to stay exclusive based on the game's track record. There's always going to be nerfs and catch up patches because you can't assume that A) everyone WILL do the raids or B) everyone can finish the raids quickly enough before they become irrelevant.

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Right. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be done. I'm pointing out that, compared to previous instances of CT giving catch-up loot, a lot of people getting the loot are going to be raiders that have been banging their heads against a wall for months.
If anything it highlights how poorly done AS has been so far.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

The counter-argument being that with waaaaaaay more players unable to clear the raid, it's even more important to make the upgrade items available to those players as soon as possible, especially since they should be done with Esoterics already, leaving that as the main route of gear improvement for them.

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I wasn't making an argument. I was trying to point out why I think some people, myself among them, are a bit disappointed that the gear is going from ludicrously difficult to obtain, to absurdly easy. I'm more upset that there wasn't a middle ground to be had, not that I'm upset about there being a much easier route.

I see everyone complaining that it will be super easy to obtain upgrade items from Void Ark, but who's to say SE haven't taken a different approach with Void Ark and considerably upped the difficulty compared to the CT raids? Maybe we'll actually have to work for our wins, gears, and upgrade items! ( ~.ø)b

Yeah, you're probably right. Void Ark will only be slightly difficult until mechanics are figured out and will then be faceroll easy, but I sincerely hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

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Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu

I see everyone complaining that it will be super easy to obtain upgrade items from Void Ark, but who's to say SE haven't taken a different approach with Void Ark and considerably upped the difficulty compared to the CT raids? Maybe we'll actually have to work for our wins, gears, and upgrade items! ( ~.ø)b

Yeah, you're probably right. Void Ark will only be slightly difficult until mechanics are figured out and will then be faceroll easy, but I sincerely hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

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They've stated that it's the same difficulty as the CT series (think WoD, I guess), not to mention that it's also tuned for a low ilvl.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

"Omg you get gear but don't have to work as hard as me!" So uh... work smarter not harder? If you are doing raid content because you want gear and not because you like the challenge then you are certainly doing it wrong. Especially when you know you will get gear that is as good 3 to 6 months later.

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I agree with this and is exactly why I don't feel sorry for any raiders.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I wasn't making an argument.

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Counter-point then, rather than counter-argument.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I was trying to point out why I think some people, myself among them, are a bit disappointed that the gear is going from ludicrously difficult to obtain, to absurdly easy. I'm more upset that there wasn't a middle ground to be had, not that I'm upset about there being a much easier route.

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What kind of middle ground would you have considered reasonable?

I guess I'm not sure I understand being disappointed or upset about this. I've been in various different points of raiding progression when the alternate methods of obtaining upgrade items have been introduced:

My group for Second Coil had been butting our heads against T8 for weeks (after butting our heads against T7 for weeks) when ST/Hunts first came out, and I was glad there was a way to obtain gear I didn't currently have access to, to make working on the rest of Second Coil less of a struggle.

I changed to a different group for Final Coil, and we'd already cleared T13 when WoD came out, and I was glad there was a way to more quickly obtain items that didn't rely on competing with the rest of my static.

That same group, now in Alex Savage, cleared A3S for the first time a few weeks ago. We've only put in a couple of hours in A4S, so it's unlikely we'll have it cleared by 3.1, but I'm still not sure I can fathom a reason to be disappointed that there's an alternate route by which to obtain those items.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Progression players have to have four weeks of A3S clears to get a Twine, why should players running the Void Ark be treated better?

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Because from 3.1 to 3.2 is shorter than from 3.0 to 3.2

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Originally Posted by Ibi

What kind of middle ground would you have considered reasonable?

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The same mid-core level that many people have complained is seemingly absent in Heavensward. The Normal FCoB that required people to actually raid, but wasn't as demanding as Savage. Rather than the 2 polar opposite modes we have from Alexander, (particularly A3S and A4S).

WoW got away with 3 tiers of difficulty, one for the sight-seeing and experience, one for people who want a raid to play through with a dedicated group, and one for people who are truly looking for a challenge. As it is now, Savage is part of that second group for A1S and A2S, and just immediately jumps to the third group. The itemization rewards and difficulty really screwed over the players in the second group.

The typical pattern, that raiders had access to this better gear for a couple of months of ready isn't quite present, considering that A3S' substantial difficulty blocked what I feel is a majority of raiders from ever getting that gear.

In short, A3S is a bad fight, and it's making me feel more upset about Void Ark giving out ostensibly the same loot.

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Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu

Yeah, you're probably right. Void Ark will only be slightly difficult until mechanics are figured out and will then be faceroll easy, but I sincerely hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

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Maybe in a premade alliance.
In a DF alliance there are always 3-5 people who do the mechanics wrong

That's funny most people who have cleared as3 and or progressing on the last part of as4 consider 3 a supeiror fight and should have been at the end and four is garbage.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The typical pattern, that raiders had access to this better gear for a couple of months of ready isn't quite present, considering that A3S' substantial difficulty blocked what I feel is a majority of raiders from ever getting that gear.

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If you're currently working on, but can't beat, A3S, you'll gain access to i120 head, body, and legs with 3.1.

Three out of the twelve equipment slots.

Who cares what gear anyone outside of your static does or doesn't have? Never mind that raiders will likely still be the only ones with access to i210 weapons and will still be the only ones with access to Gordian armor.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Oil of Time & Sands of Time were added to the Hunts NPC in 2.3, one major patch after the addition of the Second Coil of Bahamut.
Carboncoats & Carbontwines were added to the Hunts NPC in 2.5, one major patch after the addition of the Final Coil of Bahamut.

Gobcoats & Gobtwines being made more available in 3.1 isn't any different from what happened in the past.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Umm they did te same thing to every hunter remember? ppl hunted there bums off to get blood marks to upgrade from i100 to i110 them boom they added it in ST like candy.Not saying it was right but SE likes doing this

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Sands and Oils with the hunts in 2.3 were a joke, but it was the first time it was implemented so it's understandable, when they came to ST it was fine, it had been enough time. I didn't have too much of a problem with the Coats and Twines being added to the hunts in 2.5, they required a large time investment which made it fair. As I have said multiple times, I have no problem with them being added in 3.1, only that there is some effort required to get them and that they aren't handed out like hot cakes.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

Why should people be handed relic weapons now when I had to work for mine back in 2.0?

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Your being serious aren't you? I think the fact that 210 gear is relevant right now and that the Relic from 2.0 isn't make these a tad different, not that I agree with the Relic being nerfed, but the Relic was a time sink, there's no skill in that.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

In short, A3S is a bad fight, and it's making me feel more upset about Void Ark giving out ostensibly the same loot.

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I couldn't disagree more, A3S is one of the best designed fights since T9, it mixes things up from phase to phase making the fight interesting, as opposed to say T13 in which all of the phases were similar. It just requires a lot of attention from all 8 party members and a considerable amount of raid awareness.

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

That's funny most people who have cleared as3 and or progressing on the last part of as4 consider 3 a supeiror fight and should have been at the end and four is garbage.

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Yeah A4 is bad, it wouldn't surprise me if it was designed by the same team that brought us Mog Ex -_-

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Originally Posted by Felis

Because from 3.1 to 3.2 is shorter than from 3.0 to 3.2

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You must have been the top student in your maths class...

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Originally Posted by Ibi

If you're currently working on, but can't beat, A3S, you'll gain access to i120 head, body, and legs with 3.1.

Three out of the twelve equipment slots.

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I would have rather had the fight been more reasonably tuned so that my group could have already cleared it despite trying for several months in a row by this point.
I think it's hard to overstate how much of a spike in difficulty A3S is compared to A2S. That's the problem I have, and that problem contributes to why I am upset about the situation.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

I couldn't disagree more, A3S is one of the best designed fights since T9, it mixes things up from phase to phase making the fight interesting, as opposed to say T13 in which all of the phases were similar. It just requires a lot of attention from all 8 party members and a considerable amount of raid awareness.

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The disagreement is mutual. I feel that it is easily the worst designed fight I've seen in an MMORPG. It's difficult for all the wrong reasons, and the spike in difficulty from the previous 2 encounters compounds on this.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I would have rather had the fight been more reasonably tuned so that my group could have already cleared it despite trying for several months in a row by this point.
I think it's hard to overstate how much of a spike in difficulty A3S is compared to A2S. That's the problem I have, and that problem contributes to why I am upset about the situation.

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Several months O_O did Yoshi-P give you early access? A2 is the easiest fight in Savage so there's no wonder that it's considerably easier than A3, but just because A3 is hard doesn't mean it's a poorly tuned fight. I think people came into Savage expecting the same difficulty as FCoB which was the easiest raid we had through all of 2.0

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The disagreement is neutral. I feel that it is easily the worst designed fight I've seen in an MMORPG. It's difficult for all the wrong reasons, and the spike in difficulty from the previous 2 encounters compounds on this.

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Just out of interest what are these reasons?

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Several months O_O did Yoshi-P give you early access?

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Considering I'm going to be getting my 12th weekly A2S token, yes, that'd be 3 months. Several, more than 2, is correct.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

A2 is the easiest fight in Savage so there's no wonder that it's considerably easier than A3, but just because A3 is hard doesn't mean it's a poorly tuned fight. I think people came into Savage expecting the same difficulty as FCoB which was the easiest raid we had through all of 2.0
Just out of interest what are these reasons?

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The infamous Reddit Post did actually touch on what I feel are the issues here.
The fight itself relies on rewarding the group as a whole for reacting to the fight spontaneously. This is at odds with how raid encounters are usually designed, and especially with how they've been designed in FF14.
Typically, I feel that after I've completed a raid fight, I can run it through my head in memory, almost like the steps of a dance. The fights heavily rewarded rehearsal and memory. A3S has so many random elements to it that it's hard for me to do this.

I don't feel that the skill set being rewarded for A3S is in-line with what is usually rewarded in raid design. It'd be as if, in the middle of a raid fight, the game asked each member of the party to complete a sudoku puzzle. Even if those puzzles were really well designed, challenging, and fun for sudoku players, why are you suddenly rewarding a different skill set in a game that doesn't typically ask players to complete puzzles?

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

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Wait, are you saying you want them to set it to it takes 4-6 weeks to get one upgrade, without getting others in the process similar to Alexander? Or perhaps you're suggesting that the first two bosses drop accessory tokens and the other two drop left side? If the first one, what? You honestly expect people to subscribe and actively pay $15 a month to upgrade one time?

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Typically, I feel that after I've completed a raid fight, I can run it through my head in memory, almost like the steps of a dance. The fights heavily rewarded rehearsal and memory. A3S has so many random elements to it that it's hard for me to do this.

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I can remember people asking for more random elements, less predictable ones. And how rehearsal and memory wasn't 'real skill'.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

I can remember people asking for more random elements, less predictable ones. And how rehearsal and memory wasn't 'real skill'.

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I was never one of those players. I think I made it clear that I rather enjoy the skillset that is usually rewarded in raid design.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Wait, are you saying you want them to set it to it takes 4-6 weeks to get one upgrade, without getting others in the process similar to Alexander? Or perhaps you're suggesting that the first two bosses drop accessory tokens and the other two drop left side? If the first one, what? You honestly expect people to subscribe and actively pay $15 a month to upgrade one time?

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The Boss tokens is a good idea, 4-6 was a bit ott, I think 1-2 weeks for a Coat and 3 for a Twine would be fair, it's similar to the wait raiders get now.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Typically, I feel that after I've completed a raid fight, I can run it through my head in memory, almost like the steps of a dance. The fights heavily rewarded rehearsal and memory. A3S has so many random elements to it that it's hard for me to do this.

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So basically A3 is broken because it has random mechanics? It's just natural progression from various mechanics we have already seen through the Coils and 24mans, just more layered with a dps check, a large portion of it is completely scripted.

Does this mean we can upgrade our Eso armor now?

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

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You are honestly crazy if you think they will even remotely put 2 weeks for a token, it will work similar to CRISTAL TOWER Imo a weekly quest that awards you with one token of choice, that's how it was and it didn't hurt anyone, just made progression smoother for those who didn't had top notch, number crunching static who ran for world first, it does NOT take you 3 weeks to get an upgrade, your team is just not skilled to get them weekly. Not only that you also get a piece of gear so that's 2 pieces you get and maybe more if you are lucky on your rolls, so no getting 1 upgrade per week is not unfair, since no body stop you to get it too.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I'd hope it's not weekly, the game is hurt hard and right now I don't see a weekly restriction being a great idea to bring people back to the game since the idea of having a week to sit and around and stomach the same old content instead of the fresh might put more people out.

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Good thing most people still haven't cleared Savage. Also Island exploration and the new end game Lords of Verminion.

If I had to guess its going to take 4 tokens from Void Ark to get a upgrade item the same number of tokens it takes from savage. So about of month for a upgrade item.