SE, the time has come to ignore everything your players say.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

We also got the whole story on day one of Alexander Normal's release. This is nothing that the players asked for.

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Who wanted a storymode without the story?

/ signed :)

Not listening to your playerbase at all is the fastest way to see the subscriptions dropping without knowing why.
There have been multiple improvements of game based on players' feedback. Only because the community have divided opinions on some stuff doesn't mean their feedback is unnecessary.

I am not going to list feedback that changed stuff for better, but just as an example: if I remember right it was players who told devs not to implement FATEs into important quests (CT for example) that let you wait hours before they appeared. If there was't our feedback or devs wouldn't listen to it, that would be nice, really.

Support this. They seem to listen to the unnecessary requests over the ones that are actually needed or in high demand, or take way too long to implement it.

Yall got what you asked for.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Yall got what you asked for.

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No.. We really didn't. We got some of what we asked for, and implemented way too late. Plus 'you' is a pretty broad spectrum considering most of the forum base has completely different views. The playerbase doesn't even know what they want.

OP: If you want to see what happens when developers don't listen to their player base, look at WoW. The developers dug in their heels over numerous issues over the period of WoD and they have lost more subscribers faster than ever before.

It's not a matter of "listen vs. don't listen", it's a matter of signal vs. noise. The developers NEED feedback to see how players feel about the game, but that doesn't mean they should listen to all feedback. Certain feedback is totally useless, but that doesn't mean they should disregard all feedback.

The trick for SE is figuring out which feedback is useful and which isn't.

I knew I should have added "delay the relic weapons" to my list of things from the playerbase to ignore and do the opposite of.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Wait, asking for midcore content is a bad thing now?

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Having a medium version will only make the "alex is hehashed content and thus uninteresting" complaint worse; won't fix anything.

There is nothing wrong with complaints, just need to be constructive and specific. Take this "Savage Alexander is rehashed, uninteresting." and change it to "I would like to see Savage have completely different boss mechanics from normal with rewards looking upgraded from normal rewards."

OP hits on something else. 90% of the forum posts are complaints or negative or whining disguised as feedback, while maybe 5% are actual constructive criticism and 5% are positive feedback.

The numbers are inverted when you go on a community like Tumblr, where 90% of the posts are positive - people having fun, role playing, enjoying the content, sharing in-game victories etc, and less than 10% are constructive or destructive criticism.

Maybe it's because the complainers feel that the official forums are the best place to make their voices heard, but what we see on the OF is pretty much the opposite of the feelings of the wider player base in other venues.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Having a medium version will only make the "alex is hehashed content and thus uninteresting" complaint worse; won't fix anything.

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Frankly though... this island exploration thing just now might end up being something actually new. Primals - HM primals - Extreme Primals - all rehash. Dungeon - HM dungeon - all rehash; even the mechanics: trash mob, trash mob, trash mob, boss, rinse and repeat. Raids? Rush to boss - fight boss - with insane AoEs, sometimes including insane timings, one of which you miss and it's probably a wipe. (That or pay attention to 5 different things at once with tight as hell timings, while battling latency/lag.) Gear? Tome model converted to crafted model (or vice versa), repaints after repaints after repaints, long robe after long robe after long robe. And let's not forget RNG every-damn-where, often one layered on top of another (and maybe even a third). And let's not forget the weekly lockouts and weekly caps on everything either - want to actually gear up (in a game that allows multiple jobs on one character)? One item per week. Want to grind out a currency to buy gear? Not more than what's enough for one item a week, or even two weeks. Such "fun".

It's not asking for "midcore" content that makes the rehash issue a thing.

In case you are all missing the obvious: It's not always the same people that are complaining.

Let's say 50% of the fans support option A, and 50% support option B, and SE decides to implement A, all the B people will whine. Then if SE says never mind then, we'll do B instead, then the A people will complain.

So in theory it would be possible to make me happy 100% of the time if they always happened to do what I wanted but, that seems unlikely. Just saying I'm not suddenly changing my opinion on matters and whining about something I wasn't already whining about before.

Trying to please everyone is a wasted effort. It's just not gonna happen. There's going to be things people are upset about just because we all have different wants and expectations for this game.

Wasn't the reason 1.0 fell flat was cause they didn't listen well to the players wants and needs in the first place? Pretty sure they didn't start listening to the players on the forums till after it was failing miserably and they actually felt it financially. I was around during 1.0 but not nearly as long as others or till the end for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

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Maybe the devs should look into hiring "secret shoppers", people who lurk around these other venues and ask them about the game and such, fishing for feedback in a way that does not have people know who they are and as a result get an uncontaminated response as opposed to "I know this guy knows the devs, I'll just beg him for this one thing over and over again"

A happy medium is really the best. As I have said before, we as a community collective need to be careful on how we pitch ideas on the forums.

For example, we asked for bigger zones (and flying needs bigger zones so we won on that), but we gave little input on things that we would like to see in a bigger zone to still make them feel alive, so now we have (some) players saying HW feels empty and too big.

We need to frame our complaints a smidge better. Like giving bad news and mixing it with some good.

Remove all useless caps
Stop giving handouts
balance the game in vertical and horizontal progressions
Stop catering to casuals all the damn time.
I210 gears are pretty much useless cause i can still do the same thing everyone else is doing as i200.
Do we even have to go into how the relic quest is completly ruined and unrewarding just because people like the OP can feel that they deserve everything else everyone has because they pay for a subscription?
I can keep going.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

Frankly though... this island exploration thing just now might end up being something actually new. Primals - HM primals - Extreme Primals - all rehash. Dungeon - HM dungeon - all rehash; even the mechanics: trash mob, trash mob, trash mob, boss, rinse and repeat. Raids? Rush to boss - fight boss - with insane AoEs, sometimes including insane timings, one of which you miss and it's probably a wipe. (That or pay attention to 5 different things at once with tight as hell timings, while battling latency/lag.) Gear? Tome model converted to crafted model (or vice versa), repaints after repaints after repaints, long robe after long robe after long robe. And let's not forget RNG every-damn-where, often one layered on top of another (and maybe even a third). And let's not forget the weekly lockouts and weekly caps on everything either - want to actually gear up (in a game that allows multiple jobs on one character)? One item per week. Want to grind out a currency to buy gear? Not more than what's enough for one item a week, or even two weeks. Such "fun".

It's not asking for "midcore" content that makes the rehash issue a thing.

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That's cool, but the person whom I was quoting was defending the desire for a medium Alex. Not something new.

OP seems to think it is the same people complainig about both sides of the coin... OP is being a little, well...

I gotta agree with the OP 100%, and I don't do that very often!

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

Oddly familiar gripe from an oddly similar individual.

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I thought Skizzle disappeared, but behold, there he is once more in the flesh and in disguise!

I'll go get the delicious buttery popcorn!

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Stop doing anything anyone asks you to do. Make the game you feel is the best, the most interesting, and the most compelling. Your players do not know what they want. They need to be led by your designs. They will complain no matter what. But the only way you will lose subscribers is by allowing their insanity to water down your creativity and production values.

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I think you may be reading too much into what the vocal minorities are saying and assuming that they reflect the opinions of the entire community.

OP has upvotes because it sounds tough, but it's actually terrible advice. OP says "Don't listen to players! Make stuff in a bubble that has problems! Be arrogant and make the game fail like 1.0!"

Casual Alexander was a good idea. Still is. The problem is Alexander story isn't good. SE listened to players but executed poorly. That bleeds over into Savage, too.

SE should have easily realized that neighborhoods would never meet player demand for housing. SE should have made instanced housing for players and neighborhoods for FCs.

SE does some things well, but has blind spots. It doesn't listen to players on some issues and continues forward with plans that won't work. Saving FFXIV was a miracle, but now SE is in danger of becoming too conservative and repeating the same formulas and mistakes.

Keep on listening to players, learn from mistakes, and execute better. Don't become an arrogant failure like the OP suggests.

I have to agree with others who say that the original post is not a good design philosophy. This game was built from the ground up based on player feedback, and version 1.0 existed because of ignored player feedback. If anything, FFXIV is the poster child for how listening to your players creates success from failure. One only needs to look at its competition to see where developers ignored the concerns and pleas of their players and where that got them in the long run.

Developers shouldn't compromise their vision for the sake of a few voices on the forums, however they should also consider the wants and needs of their players when designing content for the future. Forum feedback is one method of delivery, as is polling and data delivered via players in-game through actual gameplay. Ultimately it's not any of us but the developers themselves that have data on how people play the content in their game and it's up to them to make good decisions based on that. Making the argument that vocal minorities on the official forums (and the forum userbase itself being a minority) leads to schizophrenic design is just as much of a fallacy as the very posts and people being lambasted.

The hardcore players wanted content that separated them from the casuals. They get it and are still complaining. Some complaining that they can't get many people together to clear the content. Well, since they asked to be separate from the casuals, this is what you get.

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Originally Posted by Kadrothan

SWTOR was another game where the player base was totally ignored for a long time after launch.

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Casuals killed SWTOR. When all the hard core raiders leave a game it messes up everything from running content to the economy. Then games slowly die. When everything that is posted is a request to add a bunny race instead of actual content you know you cant listen to those people.

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Originally Posted by Tsunenori

I have to agree with others who say that the original post is not a good design philosophy. This game was built from the ground up based on player feedback, and version 1.0 existed because of ignored player feedback.

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1.0 existed because fanboys cant keep their trap shut. All of the problems of 1.0 were pointed out but then people were running around showering praise on the devs telling them how awesome the game was were drowning out the people who were pointing out real issues.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I gotta agree with the OP 100%, and I don't do that very often!

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Heh. What's up, Ilitsa? How's do you like Heavensward so far?

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

The hardcore players wanted content that separated them from the casuals. They get it and are still complaining. Some complaining that they can't get many people together to clear the content. Well, since they asked to be separate from the casuals, this is what you get.

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I'm not going to separate this stuff into 2 Separate play styles.

But it was the people who wanted to watch a coil movie that complained about not having an easier version.

Now we have 2 separate versions of Alexander where you had to do the normal story version for weeks to gear for savage. And this was SE idea of to get people in to help the uhhh well HELL in just going to say it. The bad players who can't find their way out the front door even if they had a map and Siri telling them step by step instructions.

Oh ya and the people who didn't want to dedicate themselves to it. oh ha also those people who have what limited playtime? But to those people will not going to experience everything deal with it.

In the end what happened is these people got their cake ate it while the rest got stuck with the crumbs called savage mode.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

I think you may be reading too much into what the vocal minorities are saying and assuming that they reflect the opinions of the entire community.

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I think that's what SE is doing.

100% agree! Take QOL suggestions into consideration but follow your own gut when it comes to major content.

There is one company that has done the modern MMO thing properly, I think SE is well aware of this and Im sure theyre taking notes. Let SE do what they are doing because they arent so far off track.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

You wanted to implement reclamation long ago. The player-base whined, and you backed down. Now you're doing it anyway, and your hesitation caused some serious damage to the housing availability and subsequently compromised your vision of workships and airships.
...

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You made a mistake. YoshiP explicitly stated ARR would not do that when implementing housing.
There for "You wanted to implement reclamation long ago" actually was what the "hearing player-base whined"

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

You made a mistake. YoshiP explicitly stated ARR would not do that when implementing housing.
There for "You wanted to implement reclamation long ago" actually was what the "hearing player-base whined"

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He also stated personal housing would be its own thing. SE says a lot of stuff.

I was referring to reclamation system as disclosed during the previews of the housing system, before housing was out, but after ARR was released. You have seen these, yes?

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Your players asked for a coil everyone could enjoy. You gave it to them. Now they're complaining that Savage Alexander is rehashed, uninteresting. The same people have turned on you for giving them what they wanted - now they're crying a return to coil-raids, or worse, a medium Alexander.

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Why do people continue to treat the player base as though it's a hive mind, where there's only a single opinion on any matter?

The people who were asking for a Coil everyone could enjoy were the people who were unable to experience Coil as it was implemented.

That's a completely different group of people to those that are currently lamenting that Savage does not give the same kind of experience as Coil. The only people who'd know it's a different experience are those who actually experienced both, which, by definition, does not include the group of people who were unable to experience Coil as it was implemented.

The same applies to the other issues you've mentioned. By and large, the people who are happy with the status quo probably aren't spending all that much time on the forums either praising or complaining about the content; most of the comments on the state of a particular piece of content are coming from the people who aren't satisfied with its current state.

When SE announces/implements a different direction for content, the people who previously weren't saying anything (because they were fine with it as it was) now start posting their displeasure with the new direction. It's rare that you'll find an individual who was asking for a specific change now voicing their displeasure when that particular change is made.

All of which ignores that sometimes the specific implementation SE chooses may not align with the requests the player base was making. I don't think most of the people who were looking for interesting stats and customization of gear, for example, are jumping for joy that they can now add materia to their tomestone/raid items, even if it's a baby step in the right direction for that particular request.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

-snip-

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This post is so full of it a whole box of Ex-Lax couldn't clear it out.

First, who are you to determine who does Story Mode Alexander? Second, who are you to determine who should or shouldn't experience content?

Posts like yours are the EXACT reason the devs should not go out of their way to cater to these wannabe "pros".

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Why do people continue to treat the player base as though it's a hive mind, where there's only a single opinion on any matter?

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I'd like to direct you to the Strawman fallacy. Once you know what it is you'll find your awnswer

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

A survey email or in-game tool available to all to use at any time (but also with regular specific polls when patches hit) would be nice. ... They ASKED, we ANSWERED, they LISTENED.

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As much as I favor this and would like to see it implemented, I would personally rather them do the one QOL fix that everyone really wants... Right click -> Report as Real Money Trader (and add to blacklist).

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Originally Posted by Catwho

OP hits on something else. 90% of the forum posts are complaints or negative or whining disguised as feedback, while maybe 5% are actual constructive criticism and 5% are positive feedback.

The numbers are inverted when you go on a community like Tumblr, where 90% of the posts are positive - people having fun, role playing, enjoying the content, sharing in-game victories etc, and less than 10% are constructive or destructive criticism.

Maybe it's because the complainers feel that the official forums are the best place to make their voices heard, but what we see on the OF is pretty much the opposite of the feelings of the wider player base in other venues.

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Just because it is a complaint or negative doesn't make the feedback not valuable. To a developer with millions sunk into a game it might blow seeing a ton of posts saying 'The game is shit because of Y' but they can get a consensus on what people are unhappy about or feel could be done better. Just because Tumblr makes everything seem like sunshine and rainbows doesn't mean its a better community or even more helpful as feed back to the devs. If all we do is kiss ass and give reach arounds then as far as they are concerned all is great and wonderful and fine. No adjustments needed, right guys?

See original launch for details. OF has some stupid shit posted on here now and then, but there are at least people posting legitimate issues such as the re-hashing of content structures, raids being singular rooms with boss after boss, lack of itemization, the making of content obsolete after 3 months or in some cases on launch, scripted encounters and raid mechanics, stats that are not useful, class imbalance, etc. And yeah, the official forums are for game feedback, because I'm sure the devs would love to troll through Tumblr and Instagram to get feedback on their game right?

Tumblr is but one small chunk of the community and I'll leave it at that. But jump on Reddit, or Facebook, or BG, SA, or any other community and take a look at what they have to say. Pretty sure you will find just as many complaints and positives there. I'm curious what would happen to someone on Tumblr in a FF14 community if they started to speak out about bad design choices/unfun parts of the game, because I've heard plenty of horror stories where groups like that turn on one black sheep out of the group. From what I've seen of a lot of large groups in Tumblr, it is a with us or against us mentality. Hardly the place I would go to for reasonable and balanced discussion of well, anything.

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

I know the company is capable of doing this, because it recently happened. I was asked to fill out a survey in S-E's Final Fantasy Portal app,

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SE did similarly for FF15 after the demo was released with FF Type-0 HD. I took the survey for FF15 demo and watched the vid of their review of all the results - over an hour length. I was -incredibly- happy with this. First, I was surprised they had a survey, but expected nothing to come out of it. Just "Thank you for your time." at the end of the survey and all would be forgotten. But some time later (I forgot how long after), they had a whole conference displaying pie charts of the multiple-choice and Y/N questions answered by people, by region (Asia, Europe, Americas), and went through each. Then they went through some of the common complaints and critiques that people had written in.
It must have been a lot of work, but I felt so appreciative and happy to see that what I and others thought was even poked at. They talked out and analyzed each section.

If they did this every once in a while and got the stats of what the majority thinks (rather than just the few that scream the loudest on a forum) by posting on the client patcher and advertising a survey for the general masses, they might have a clearer picture of what the community - and not just the forum community - wants.