Proposal: HQ mat-to-HQ mat conversion of 100%

"full" +3 gear? All you need is a +3 tool. HQ clothes don't give you any extra crafting bonuses. HQ on armor and clothing only increases defense, evade, and magical defense, which are useless to a crafter (Fix this too SE).

So what does +Magic Crafting do? And are we certain that there aren't hidden bonuses to these stats in +X gear? I for one have not seen any tests one way or the other to check this out, hence the idea of testing it. If you can point me to some data on it, by all means please share! I would love to be shown to be wrong in this. Otherwise, no harm in testing.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

So what does +Magic Crafting do? And are we certain that there aren't hidden bonuses to these stats in +X gear? I for one have not seen any tests one way or the other to check this out, hence the idea of testing it. If you can point me to some data on it, by all means please share! I would love to be shown to be wrong in this. Otherwise, no harm in testing.

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http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...f271d7a0a84d5f

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Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship. Control helps to reduce the occurrence of aetherial sparking (see below), and exerts its influence over both types of recipes just mentioned. All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.

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I doubt there are any hidden stats on gear that affect crafting, since even YG doesn't have that listed on their "hidden stats" portion of item properties.

Okay, so that was rhetorical, and I feel silly for asking about the hidden stats since as far as I understand it YG farms the dat files. Its late. <.< I'll blame it on that! ;) Thanks for pointing me to the explanation though; I had somehow totally overlooked the effects of the various elements destabilizing.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Not necessarily. You just need to adjust your crafting method depending on what you're synthing.

When dealing with finished items, it's generally a better idea to get as much quality as you can while preserving durability for the "Touch Up" process.

When creating mats or parts, it's generally a better idea to go for as much quality as you can, durability be damned, which is where skills like Clean Slate come in handy.

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I still think it would be nice for materials to have a touch up option. I have gotten to 300+ quality on a finished item and used touch up until it broke with not even a +1. the chances are too low even at that high quality, so it would be better if we could at least more easily create HQ materials

I think parts should have a touch up option. Things like sleeves, robe fronts, shirt fronts etc.
I agree that +3 mats should give a far better chance at HQing than NQ mats

I'd be okay with touchups, but i'd rather have the HQ rates increased up-front on materials due to time issues. It's a lump of metal in the end. Touching it up's not functionally going to alter its properties, whereas touching up a final piece makes more sense.

As far as the iron file+3 goes...I have a +1. I will make myself a +3 just because i make *so* many freaking mats with the offhand for me and the shell and I'm bored. But I'm not buying that it will make a bit of difference. We're talking about a difference in craft, mcraft, and control of:

Polished iron file+1:
Craft: 52
Mcraft: 67
Control: 59

Polished iron file+3:
Craft: 57
Mcraft: 73
Control: 65

You're talking about 5 craftsmanship. 6 mcraft. 6 control. That's almost nothing compared to my baseline in all honestly from mcraft, craft, and balanced sets. I'm afraid that any difference you see in HQ rates of Polished iron file and +3 iron file is placebo effect. There's just not enough power in those stats to amount to a hill of beans unless the HQ tool has a hidden HQ-chance-altering effect OUTSIDE the stat boosts. Which I'm almost sure I don't.

In my mind, quality is the only determinant of HQ rate. I'm guessing the outcome quality of an polished iron file versus polished iron file +3 is less than 20 quality points per synth. That's not gonna cut it. That's not going to give you a detectable difference in HQ rate. Humans are not capable of detecting differences of less than about 20%.

They are, however, exquisitely good at believing a difference exists when there is none.

Every little bit helps.

HQ mats + rank 50 + high level skills + +3tool + dodore and other best crafing gear + food combined is going to give you better chances than just HQ mats and rank 50 alone. If you're trying to optimize your results you gotta maximize your chances as much as you can.

"Every little bit helps" is like saying "everything happens for a reason."
Does it really, or does it just feel better saying it?

Every little bit doesn't help. That's the problem. I bet if I took off my dodore doublet and wore the velveteen vest again, and if I threw my +1's out and wore NQs, AND if I dropped all of my crafting abilitites AND took my MND and INT down to 50...there'd be no difference in HQ oucomes. Why? Because there'd be next to no difference in quality and given how many setups I've had and worked with, I realize that.

I would actually run that test if it wasn't likely that the design will change.

People think this is a system where every little bit helps and they'll be rewarded for getting all these abilities and traits and stat converts and HQ this and that...and it's just not the case. 90% of the quality, and thus 90% of the chance of HQ, is predetermined by three things. Starting quality, your level, and the dominatingly low chance of non-NQ results. What's the difference between a 1% chance and a 2% chance of getting a +3? Twice the chance, zomg? No, there is no difference. They're both abysmal. It's the difference between absolute and relative differences. 20% more means nothing if it doesn't DO anything.

In fact, many of the abilities meant to raise quality can often decrease it. Inspiration: increased chance of quality but reduces success rate. Really now...and what happens if you fail where you would have otherwise succeeded? You lose your chain. You lose progress. You lose durability. You lose quality. Increased chance of instability, so you could lose a heck of a lot of things. Inspiration is designed to do nothing, while making you squeal and clap and remember the time that you gained 61 quality points on that success. The biggest farce MMO developers ever pulled is to throw players meaningless numbers and convince them they mean something as incentive to level more and play more and stay longer. 2 is more than 1, they whisper. It all adds up, they say. And people repeat that over and over. They believe it makes them better, and with all the flaws the human brain has at really judging these things, they insist it makes them better.

Unfortunately both the 2 and the 1 mean nothing, and affect no real outcome. What is 4 more craftsmanship? 10 more? What is 20 more quality?

Nothing, in reality. Who here is pumping things to 700 quality? No one.

I'd like to run that test just to show that it doesn't help. Then we could get everyone on the same page, and hopefully get more communication going in the direction of suggested fixes.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

In fact, many of the abilities meant to raise quality can often decrease it. Inspiration: increased chance of quality but reduces success rate. Really now...and what happens if you fail where you would have otherwise succeeded?

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Which is why it is most useful for crafts that are low enough rank relative to you that you're virtually guaranteed success. The kinds of abilities you equip are very specific to the circumstances of the synth.

Look, I realize the various diminishing returns in this game. I deal with that all the time on my battle classes. However, on a crafter, there are really only so many stats you can maximize, and things like making a +3 file, getting dodore, vintage coif, vintage thighboots, etc, setting optimal stats, and eating the right food aren't all that hard to achieve.

Especially for a Blacksmith, making your own +3 file is relatively easy compared to what other classes have to go through, so you might as well do it. It can't hurt.

Unless you believe it's just a big waste of time and the minimal gains aren't worth the investment.

But it can hurt. You've bought into a false system instead of one *truly* capable of bringing balance to crafting. You can't base crafting balance on the lie that getting better and getting a +3 is going to make a difference. That is paying 3 million gil for one magic accuracy.

Find me a crafter who you think has done what you think matters, and I'll equal their HQ rates without it. Guaranteed.

The damage that it does is that it wastes human life hours on a lie, and convinces people that there is a balance that doesn't exist.

When I say HQ rates are too low, I'm saying your HQ rates are too low. Not that I suck.

Look at the reality you're facing:
Iron Ore+3*4--->10% chance of Iron Nugget+3
Iron nugget+3*5----> 10% chance of Iron Ingot+3
Total chance of Iron Ingot +3 from Iron Ore+3: 1%

So what if an ability doubles that chance? Outright doubles it.
Your chance is now 2%.

Two percent. If you make 100 iron ingots, now instead of one iron ingot+3, you now have two.
Okay, you still don't have enough to try a single mortar or weapon blade. The 90 NQ iron ingots made go to NPC. The 8 +1's you made go to your retainer and will eventually go into your mortar synth because you're desperate and you settle. Hell you didn't even make any +2's, whats the deal with that?

400 iron ore+3's. Gone. And you don't even have enough ingots to try to make a mortar+3 yet. Which it will only have a 10% chance of being one anyway.

And that's assuming that you're right. That skill matters. That it makes you TWICE as good as I am.

Twice as good as I am is still horrible. And that is the point.

People make two mistakes when they argue that "rare is a good thing" here.

The first is to think themselves a better crafter than they really are. In essence they see themselves as this epic crafter who stands or will stand above the rest, and thus "rare" benefits them. It's a lie. They aren't that crafter. They will never be that crafter. They *can't* be that crafter. The system does not allow it. What they can do is simply to take advantage of the painful system and mindlessly grind where others refuse. If it takes 1600 iron ore+3's to make mortar+3 then by god that's what they'll do and it's good that they do that. If that's the kind of game we're making here, let me know now.

The second is to not fully comprehend just how rare rare is. We don't do a good job of realizing there's no difference when we want there to be. We're even worse at realizing the significance of very small and very large numbers. Thermal alembic+3 is so rare that you can't afford a thermal alembic+3 and a steel mortar+3. You and your two retainers can't hold that much gil.

The majority of people simply think they're better than they really are. They're gonna make it to the NBA. They're gonna be the 1 in a thousand. They're gonna be the +3 king on the server. Rare is good, because they're rare.

Well no, they're really not.

We already agreed on the first page that materials HQ rates are way too low and that something should be done about it. I know what you're saying and understand.

What I was talking about in the last couple posts were the ways a crafter can maximize his potential using the current system we have now. For some, they have done their best to get the best gear and the best abilities to build the best character they can. If they enjoy that kind of thing, or if they think it makes their character stronger, then they don't consider it a waste of time. Others would argue that that extra last push to maximize is totally not worth it because of the diminishing returns and that it quite possibly doesn't help at all, making the whole endeavor a big waste of time. Obviously, you fall into the latter camp.

Maybe it helps little, maybe not at all. I don't know without extensive logs and parses and can't say for sure. But neither can you.

What I do know is a lot of the elite crafters have been doing their best to to get their +3 tools and their rank 50 sub-craft skills as much as they can, and more than one have said that at the very least, it helps a little bit.

Maybe it's confirmation bias like you said, maybe it isn't. Again, without hard numbers we're only going on perception, so I can't say for sure and neither can you. What I do know, is that the high level crafters I know who have bothered to put in the time to push their character further know what it's like to have good gear and skills vs. what it's like to have the best gear and skills.

You only have the experience of working with good gear and skills, so I'm going to defer to the opinions of those crafters who have more experience in the matter.

Now, maybe they might regret having spent so much time to get to that level and see only a slight improvement in their results. Maybe if they had to do it all over again, they wouldn't even bother to make the effort to get all those skills and +3 tools. Or maybe they still would. I don't know, and it's not like I can ask them since the servers are down.

But I think we're in agreement that a crafter is either 1. wanting to max out his character despite the diminishing returns, or 2. wanting to get the best character he can get without wasting too much time with marginally more useful gear and skills.

That's fine. Everyone has the freedom to play in a way he or she wants to. If someone wants to pimp out their character as much as he can, well, that's his prerogative, whether or not you think it's a waste of time.

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

Stop. It's broken. It's not you. It's the system.

I see a lot of people wanting the system to stay the same because they think they're better at it than I am. I would like to see them try to be. I have a few feathers on my cap as just a "good" crafter. I don't wear the Dodore Doublet +1 for nothing around here.

Min/Maxers will always say that it makes them better, no matter what the truth is. Again, they are free to buy a black pearl ring for 3 million gil if they wish. But don't sit there and argue that it matters to me. I'll just laugh. I'm confident enough in my abilities to admit when what I have doesn't really matter much. I have no ulterior motive to keep other crafters down. I have no affected hopes of being the best there ever was and catch em all.

I just want the system to be balanced, and I'm at the level of smithing to start to critically analyze this pseudo-endgame situation we're in of trying to make the best of the best weapons. This is a microcosm of how endgame crafting is going to look, and it looks like **** to be honest. 50 hours of discarding insufficient-quality materials is what it looks like to me, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to waste 30 million gil in steel for the materials it takes for a small shot at a +3 steel mortar. I don't want to make 55 +1 steel mortars before I make a +3. There aren't even that many alchemists, I'll be NPC'ing HQ endgame weapons. NPC'ing! For what...4 more craftsmanship? Come on now.

I'll do a Polished Iron File +3. I tried once before and got 3+1's. I actually started on the saltpeter+3's before this thread started.

Will it make any difference? Not one bit.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

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None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest. It's just part of building your character. I know just as many more casual crafters who don't want to bother with that stuff and are of the same mindset as you.

If you think I'm advocating one method over the other, I'm not. I'm also not trying to imply that you're somehow majorly gimped because you didn't decide to spend another 2 months grinding for a tiny bit of improvement.

We all know the system is badly designed. We've all known that since beta. All I'm trying to point out is how some people play differently than others and that time invested vs. perceived/actual character improvement is valued differently among players.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I'll do a Polished Iron File +3. I tried once before and got 3+1's. I actually started on the saltpeter+3's before this thread started.

Will it make any difference? Not one bit.

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If you honestly believe that it won't matter, why even bother trying to do it then?

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're trying to make a +3 alembic, as it's totally not worth the effort. You're probably better off trying to do stuff like HQing Iron Bhujs to sell to Goldsmiths so that they can attempt to HQ Engraved Bhujs, if you're not doing that already.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Yup. Here's another one.

Solace Ist:
50 Carp
50 alch
Botany Rank...21

Of course you're going to argue that crafter HQ rates should be more dependent on their pokemon skills they've collected and not the materials. You're more biased than I am. Again, too many first generation crafters are exactly like this. You levelled carpentry and alchemy without botany. You kidding me? And you expect to be competitive because of your offhand stat and Hand of the Gods?

In my opinion a R30 with better botany skills than you have deserves to go neck and neck with you in HQ3 synthesis. And a R50 alch and carp with a R40+ botanist deserves to put you out of the HQ making scene entirely.

Level your bot if you want to be a good carpenter. 610 quality that you don't have access to consistently should be rewarded.

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LOL.

You've got to be kidding me.

Instead of wasting my time running around between trees and playing hot and cold, I spent my time making and selling gear and building cash and ... you know ... crafting. At one point I had about 50 mil sitting in my bank. I don't NEED to do botany or mining. I have enough mats to level everything to 50 already and two alt retainers full of stacks of +3 mats. If you want to pat yourself on the back about your leet skills at playing hot and cold, feel free, but you sound like a total melvin when you try to brag about how playing hot and cold makes you a better carpenter.

Please, save everyone your cute little opinion. Gathering jobs have nothing at all to do with crafting. Zip. Nada. Zilch. If you think gathering should have an effect on crafting, you are living in dreamland. They're not even in the same class categories.

Let me ask you this -> how much money have you made on your crafting job, you know, doing crafting? I'm guessing not very much if you think that gathering goes hand in hand with crafting and that you just can't excel at one without the other.

In short, let me sum up your little argument:

"I think I deserve to be buffed but please nerf anyone else who doesn't play the game the way I think it should be played."

Maybe you should relax and stop worrying about what other people are doing and start maybe, you know, working on your crafter.

"None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest."

--But do they argue that these several little things add up to their future greatness? Sometimes every little bit still amounts to no difference. That's the current situation. FFXI was different. It was the way it was because of its tier systems that EXPLODED you ahead of the rest if you hit them and gave you the means to DOMINATE over them. In XIV they took out all of those elite tiers and replaced them with generic grinding. Crafting is no different. You want +3 metal parts? It's not about how good you are. It's about how long you can stand to grind shots at them.

"If you honestly believe that it won't matter, why even bother trying to do it then?"
-For you, mostly. It's an advertisement to you, way more than it is an enhancement for me. There are a lot of smiths to choose from, and I make most of my gil from contracts so I don't have to chase down my own mats and hastle with selling crap in a flooded market.

"I'm not sure why you're trying to make a +3 alembic"
-Because a shellmember wants it pretty badly and it will likely be the first request that I will fail to produce.

"You're probably better off trying to do stuff like HQing Iron Bhujs to sell to Goldsmiths so that they can attempt to HQ Engraved Bhujs"

How's selling something to myself better off >.> Nah, I see a lot of crafters doing all these things for the money. They have 100 million. 200 million. 300 million. Engraved Bhuj+2 2.5 million gil!

Blah. It's not about the money...it's about sending a message.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

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What a lackluster, boring, blah and historically disproven argument you've dredged up, there.

"I have 1000 dollars. If I get an extra dollar, it's not much different than what I have now, so what's the point. Even if that happens a million more times, each extra dollar isn't worth much more than the one before it, so who cares."

It's the classic heap paradox, and you're just as wrong for arguing it as Eubulides was 2000+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

"None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest."

--But do they argue that these several little things add up to their future greatness? Sometimes every little bit still amounts to no difference.

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Well, then we can agree to disagree there. We think there's a small difference that's potentially worth the time invested. You don't. That's fine.

Anyway - how are you attempting to make Steel Mortars, anyway? That's an Armorer synth, and you're a Blacksmith.

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Originally Posted by Solipse

At one point I had about 50 mil sitting in my bank.
I don't NEED to do botany or mining.
Gathering jobs have nothing at all to do with crafting. Zip. Nada. Zilch. If you think gathering should have an effect on crafting, you are living in dreamland. They're not even in the same class categories.

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Oh to save these gems for posterity and see your face in the future. Look around. This ain't a bubble economy any more. A carpenter and alchemist with botany outright kicks your ass and runs circles around you. The ONLY reason you EVER amounted to anything is because you had an early level spread on those who did gather at the start. Now they've all grown up and are essentially better versions of you. I've done it to a ton of BS and GS'ers who did the same thing you did. They rode the bubble, made their early millions, then RAGED when I came right up behind them and steamrolled them with HQ mat support that they ran out of.

Your warehouse will run dry. People will stop giving you materials. Without access to mats, your quality is poor. Your income is poor. And you spiral to obscurity. Just another R50 crafter without any production value.

Free ride's over son. You'd best get to gathering, because no gatherer's going to give you so much as a maple log with that kind of attitude.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Well, then we can agree to disagree there. We think there's a small difference that's potentially worth the time invested. You don't. That's fine.

Anyway - how are you attempting to make Steel Mortars, anyway? That's an Armorer synth, and you're a Blacksmith.

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Our shell has R50's of every craft pretty much. Our alch would like a mortar. Our Glads who are farming for Aeolian brimstone give me bomb ashes. I make as HQ a steel product as I can and make steel tools for the shell with it. That would include making steel ingots for the mortar.

So when you think about making a steel mortar...the lion's share of the work is getting HQ steel ingots, which is blacksmithing. Not so much armorer that makes the final product.

Actually the lion's share is the battlecrafters hauling that stupid bomb ash. Man I wish bone ash was an alternative synth.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Oh to save these gems for posterity and see your face in the future. Look around. This ain't a bubble economy any more. A carpenter and alchemist with botany outright kicks your ass and runs circles around you. The ONLY reason you EVER amounted to anything is because you had an early level spread on those who did gather at the start. Now they've all grown up and are essentially better versions of you. I've done it to a ton of BS and GS'ers who did the same thing you did. They rode the bubble, made their early millions, then RAGED when I came right up behind them and steamrolled them with HQ mat support that they ran out of.

Your warehouse will run dry. People will stop giving you materials. Without access to mats, your quality is poor. Your income is poor. And you spiral to obscurity. Just another R50 crafter without any production value.

Free ride's over son. You'd best get to gathering, because no gatherer's going to give you so much as a maple log with that kind of attitude.

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No need for the negative attitude there, this is a community game. You two are on different servers and you cant observe each other directly, but no one gets two rank 50 crafts in 6 months without some friends.

Just like any other linkshell, we all work together to rank up our crafters, and I'm sure his is no different. I also don't think that acquiring HQ mats is a problem for him since he probably has lots of LS mates who are high rank Botanists as well. Even if he didn't have any close Botanist friends, money and barter talks, so he'll always be able to find a seller for the right price.

Your predictions of his downfall are a bit premature, methinks.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Our shell has R50's of every craft pretty much. Our alch would like a mortar.

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Since you feel that way, have you suggested to him that it's not worth it because it won't make a lick of difference, in your opinion? What does he respond?

You think +1 is the same as +3, so perhaps you should let him know that and concentrate your attention to other contracts which would be much more useful.

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Originally Posted by Solipse

What a lackluster, boring, blah and historically disproven argument you've dredged up, there.

"I have 1000 dollars. If I get an extra dollar, it's not much different than what I have now, so what's the point. Even if that happens a million more times, each extra dollar isn't worth much more than the one before it, so who cares."

It's the classic heap paradox, and you're just as wrong for arguing it as Eubulides was 2000+ years ago.

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Says the guy with an incredibly gimp subjob, how does that work? You're like a Sam with a R10 war sub, man. What are you thinking pulling this "I'ma be the best" crap when you're clearly not even close and scream that you don't need to be?

Carpenter AND alchemist and you don't see the value of levelling BOTANY to improve your crafts?
Hoo boy.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Says the guy with an incredibly gimp subjob, how does that work?

...

Carpenter AND alchemist and you don't see the value of levelling BOTANY to improve your crafts?
Hoo boy.

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But...Botany is not a subjob of Carpentry or Alchemy. It's not even in the same discipline. Botany has no skills that he can equip as a CRP or ALC.

If you're talking about mats acquisition, well, as long as he has people to farm for him, or money to buy mats, he'll get as much as he wants. Not that hard to do with 50 million gil in the bank.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Since you feel that way, have you suggested to him that it's not worth it because it won't make a lick of difference, in your opinion? What does he respond? You think +1 is the same as +3, so perhaps you should let him know that and concentrate your attention to other contracts which would be much more useful.

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No, we'll give it a shot. I can make enough steel for a +1. Maybe a +2. I've already made all the shell +1 versions of any steel piece but that, and every +1 version of all crafting tools but that darn alembic for which I'm making the HQ iron and silver nuggets IIRC.

There's nothing left to do as far as I'm concerned, but to shoot for the impossible. If the bomb ash keeps coming, I'll do it.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

But...Botany is not a subjob of Carpentry or Alchemy. It's not even in the same discipline. Botany has no skills that he can equip as a CRP or ALC.

If you're talking about mats acquisition, well, as long as he has people to farm for him, or money to buy mats, he'll get as much as he wants. Not that hard to do with 50 million gil in the bank.

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Outside the box, dude. A subjob helps you be better at your job. There is no better subjob for alchemy and carpentry than botanist. No other craft is going to make as big a difference as you, yourself, having control over your own quality materials. Look at my signature. Do you not think I would know how much having my own miner augments my two smiths?

At some point a crafter needs to be their own crafter and not a leech. I hope he's paying these gatherers what they're worth, because they're 80% of his worth in this economy.

50 million gil wouldn't buy you half of my HQ ore reserves.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Outside the box, dude. A subjob helps you be better at your job. There is no better subjob for alchemy and carpentry than botanist. No other craft is going to make as big a difference as you, yourself, having control over your own quality materials. Look at my signature. Do you not think I would know how much having my own miner augments my two smiths?

At some point a crafter needs to be their own crafter and not a leech. I hope he's paying these gatherers what they're worth, because they're 80% of his worth in this economy.

50 million gil wouldn't buy you half of my HQ ore reserves.

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Well, if his server is anything like mine, he probably doesn't need to be a Botanist himself since there are more than enough friends or sellers to supply him with all the mats he'll need.

Why bother ranking up Botanist if he can get all the mats he needs anyway?

50 million gil might not buy half of your reserves, but there are multiple gatherers per server, and there's always someone around who will cut a deal.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Well, if his server is anything like mine, he probably doesn't need to be a Botanist himself since there are more than enough friends or sellers to supply him with all the mats he'll need.

Why bother ranking up Botanist if he can get all the mats he needs anyway?

50 million gil might not buy half of your reserves, but there are multiple gatherers per server, and there's always someone around who will cut a deal.

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Not any more. You're talking as if this is october. Again, this is not a bubble economy where several miners and botanists are levelling for the hell of it and need someone to dump mats on and clean their inventory. Gatherers now have their own agendas and plans. Their own goals. They don't go out there for two hours to get mats for YOU.

We don't have shell gatherers that we keep under our thumbs as slaves in our shell, sorry. We have shell battlecrafters and crafters who gather for specific reasons. All of us are smart enough to choose the gathering jobs that help our crafts. We give cross-class gathering mats to shellmembers for free, not primary mats. If you think you're going to be able to ride your shell's production forever as a crafter...well...nice knowin ya. The synths are only going to get harder. The mats more expensive. The gathering more difficult and the gatherers more rare.

This isn't october. There is no such thing as a good gatherer who gives stuff away to crafters who sit in town. You have nothing to offer them.

Trust me. Any gatherer worth their salt knows they're worth more than you are as a crafter. I know.

How do you know for sure that he's taking advantage of his server's gatherers? You're just assuming. The most likely scenario is that his LS is just like your LS which is just like my LSes - we all help each other out to achieve our shared goals because it helps us to progress faster and because we're all friends.

This tangent tells me exactly why a lot of crafters balk at the prospect of making HQ mats have better HQ conversions. It's because many of them consider gatherers 2nd class citizens, commoners, and easy pickings. If +3 materials had better +3 conversion rates, they know they'd be out of a job because they get by on "marrying up" poor-quality mats that gatherers give away as scrap.

These first-gen crafters who don't have gathering jobs are well on their way out of influence in the game. No sense in keeping the archaic system that they rely on to stay ahead. Now that the gatherers almost all have significant crafting levels...there's just no use for a crafter any more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

How do you know for sure that he's taking advantage of his server's gatherers? You're just assuming. The most likely scenario is that his LS is just like your LS which is just like my LSes - we all help each other out to achieve our shared goals because it helps us to progress faster and because we're all friends.

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Nononono. My shell is not just like his shell. We do not suport crafting leeches who get to carp and alch to 50 by the sweat of OUR brows, because it only takes two town crafting leeches to drag the whole shells productivity down to their average level. All our smiths are miners. All our carps are bots. 90% of my smithing levels were solely powered by yours truly, and it's the same for everyone in the shell. We trade each other cross-class materials from gathering that we don't need that other crafts do need.

If you're a R50 crafter with no gathering job and apply to us, you'll get told to go gather unless you're a tanner who can kill. Because we already know you'll just sit there and beg for things. That's what all crafters are without gatherers. Shell drains. Assets go in. Little comes out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Nononono. My shell is not just like his shell. We do not suport crafting leeches who get to carp and alch to 50 by the sweat of OUR brows, because it only takes two town crafting leeches to drag the whole shells productivity down to their average level. All our smiths are miners. All our carps are bots. 90% of my smithing levels were solely powered by yours truly, and it's the same for everyone in the shell. We trade each other cross-class materials from gathering that we don't need that other crafts do need.

If you're a R50 crafter with no gathering job and apply to us, you'll get told to go gather unless you're a tanner who can kill. Because we already know you'll just sit there and beg for things. That's what all crafters are without gatherers. Shell drains. Assets go in. Little comes out.

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You're assuming again. I dunno, it seems like a you have a bit of a grudge against crafters who don't also have a gathering job, but not all high level crafters are the kind of stereotype you think Solipse is. He's not even on the same server as you. You don't even know him. How can you ascribe all these negative characteristics upon him if you don't even know him?

There are other ways to have a nice, mutually beneficial relationship besides having both gathering and crafting ranked. Maybe he synths gear for the gatherers for free. Maybe he synths gear for their battle classes as well. Maybe he's a generous member of the community who helps others out when he can, and then others repay him back in kind.

I don't know. You don't know. But you can't just look at his character ranks and then just automatically assume you know everything bad about him. That's not fair.

Difficulty and risk adds value, however. All the easy-to-make make items in FFXI were practically worthless. Make it easy to HQ, and you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. If it's really hard and risky to make a +3 item, then it's really worth something that will fetch a great price, especially since they'll also be rare.

Half the problem is people arguing in this post feel they need to HQ3 everything along the way to HQ3 what they are looking for.

You dont NEED to waste your time acquiring a bunch of HQ3 ore and make HQ3 nuggets, and do that over and over and over until you have enough to make HQ3 ingots. Doing that, of course your % is going to be extremely low.

You want to increase your % of HQ3 ingots? Stop wasting your time. Take a bunch of NQ nuggets and just go from there. You will get HQ3 ingots far more quickly.

If you say you can get 600 quality using HQ3 mats then you can get 300 quality using NQ mats, which is plenty high enough to HQ3. Hell, you can HQ3 with 200 quality. I have done it making lumber plenty of times. I have also made +2 Iron spikes with just over 100 quality using my low level 25 ARM. I dont waste my time trying to get Iron nuggets +2/3 in order to try because its a waste of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Oh to save these gems for posterity and see your face in the future. Look around. This ain't a bubble economy any more. A carpenter and alchemist with botany outright kicks your ass and runs circles around you. The ONLY reason you EVER amounted to anything is because you had an early level spread on those who did gather at the start. Now they've all grown up and are essentially better versions of you. I've done it to a ton of BS and GS'ers who did the same thing you did. They rode the bubble, made their early millions, then RAGED when I came right up behind them and steamrolled them with HQ mat support that they ran out of.

Your warehouse will run dry. People will stop giving you materials. Without access to mats, your quality is poor. Your income is poor. And you spiral to obscurity. Just another R50 crafter without any production value.

Free ride's over son. You'd best get to gathering, because no gatherer's going to give you so much as a maple log with that kind of attitude.

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LOL.

This is a pretty good comedy act.

"Dear Warren Buffet,

You made billions riding the easy money stock market back when it was EZmode, but if you tried that today you'd be a total failure because the market has changed so much that someone like you just couldn't understand it. I made almost $1000 in the market last year, and I doubt you could even manage that today if you didn't have billions in the bank.

Free ride's over, Warren. You'd best learn computers and data modeling, because no stock broker's going to give you so much as a penny stock tip with that kind of attitude.

Signed,
No-name Know-it-all"

My warehouse will never run dry. If I ever decide to level gathering, it will be when they remove the retarded gathering fatigue system, and not before. It's going to be funny when they do because you'll be on here raging any ranting about how 'I leveled it when it was hard, I deserve to be better than someone who leveled it now'.

I'll be laughing ... well, just as hard as I am now. Keep it up. This is great. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Nononono. My shell is not just like his shell. We do not suport crafting leeches who get to carp and alch to 50 by the sweat of OUR brows.

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STOP BUYING WALNUT LOGS FROM MY RETAINER YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A LEECH TRYING TO PROFIT FROM THE SWEAT OF MY BROW!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

These first-gen crafters who don't have gathering jobs are well on their way out of influence in the game. No sense in keeping the archaic system that they rely on to stay ahead. Now that the gatherers almost all have significant crafting levels...there's just no use for a crafter any more.

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"There's just no use for a crafter any more, but I'm useful because I'm a crafter than can play hot and cold!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimzon

Half the problem is people arguing in this post feel they need to HQ3 everything along the way to HQ3 what they are looking for.

You dont NEED to waste your time acquiring a bunch of HQ3 ore and make HQ3 nuggets, and do that over and over and over until you have enough to make HQ3 ingots. Doing that, of course your % is going to be extremely low.

You want to increase your % of HQ3 ingots? Stop wasting your time. Take a bunch of NQ nuggets and just go from there. You will get HQ3 ingots far more quickly.

If you say you can get 600 quality using HQ3 mats then you can get 300 quality using NQ mats, which is plenty high enough to HQ3. Hell, you can HQ3 with 200 quality. I have done it making lumber plenty of times. I have also made +2 Iron spikes with just over 100 quality using my low level 25 ARM. I dont waste my time trying to get Iron nuggets +2/3 in order to try because its a waste of time.

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Trying to marry up materials is as big or more of a waste of time than getting +nuggets, and it's an inferior model because of the excessive waste. You're playing the lottery over and over hoping to strike it lucky, and that's just not a sane strategy. 300 quality provides an insufficient rate of HQ3 nuggets just as 0 quality provides an in sufficient rate of HQ1 nuggets. Can you do it? Yes. Have I done it? Yes. At a rate that is of any function or practicality? Of course not. The only reason I bold NQ Iron ore is because I can sell the massive amount of NQ product on the market for a decent amount to grinders. I certainly can't do that with weapon heads and ingots. I don't want NQ metal parts. No one else does either. They go in the trash.

I've crafted enough to know that trying to marry more than one level up is a waste of time in this system where NQ goes in the trash 90% of the time. If your goal is a dozen +3 ingots for 4 shots at a +3 mortar, the level cap will raise before you accomplish that with NQ iron ore. You'll make a ton of +1s and some +2's. But in the end what is a +1 ingot. Nothing.

You all seem to adamantly support a market of waste and lottery because you know it's something you can do and tolerate to be an epic crafter. The thought of expensive +3 materials, which is how reality works, makes you cringe because for all the talk about how you don't need gatherers, you don't need gatherers because you try to marry up crap into something decent.

It's not viable. It's worse than XI. Make the conversion rates more directly proportional to quality. That will make +3 materials expensive. That eliminiates most crafters from using them. That eliminates most crafters from the HQ market. That makes HQ3'ing hard.

But the difference is that it makes it hard in a meaningful way instead of this mindless, wasteful grinding.

Crafters who don't want 650 quality to talk know they won't be able to get their hands on it if it does because they were too lazy to level the gathering job that supports their crafting and instead chose to level another craft to double their profits.

They chose greed. They chose poorly. Level a gatherer. For every gatherer, there are 10 worthless town crafters. The economy will reflect that eventually. The economy actually reflects that now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimzon

Half the problem is people arguing in this post feel they need to HQ3 everything along the way to HQ3 what they are looking for.

You dont NEED to waste your time acquiring a bunch of HQ3 ore and make HQ3 nuggets, and do that over and over and over until you have enough to make HQ3 ingots. Doing that, of course your % is going to be extremely low.

You want to increase your % of HQ3 ingots? Stop wasting your time. Take a bunch of NQ nuggets and just go from there. You will get HQ3 ingots far more quickly.

If you say you can get 600 quality using HQ3 mats then you can get 300 quality using NQ mats, which is plenty high enough to HQ3. Hell, you can HQ3 with 200 quality. I have done it making lumber plenty of times. I have also made +2 Iron spikes with just over 100 quality using my low level 25 ARM. I dont waste my time trying to get Iron nuggets +2/3 in order to try because its a waste of time.

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^ This is my exact train of thought.

I have been on a look out for a Blacksmith to make me a +2/3 Steel Claw Hammer. I'm currently farming steel nuggets, and mats for steel nuggets ATM. After using 8 x pieces of oak lumber +1, resulting in 8 nq oak hammer grips i decided to use my left over nq's, and made 4 +2 grips so far. No need to get the +3 IMO.

Currently to me, and my history of hq'ing items; touch ups, persistency, and luck are the only things needed to hq items. The hq tools, and abilities (which i love so much) just make the synth easier to finish and have enough durability to touch up 4-8 times.

When I go for a hq item using nq mats I try and get atleast 150 quality, before I finish and spam touch ups till 25 durability. Using hq mats at least 250. I have a decent hq track record (not ratio ^^) I think. Though I am very stubborn, and that's where persistency comes into play.