The issue nobody wants to address

Why? Because too many of the elitists "git gud" asshats forget that this game also welcomes people NEW to mmorpg. Just because you may have been playing since before the beta was an alpha doesn't mean everyone else has too. Yoshi P addresses this concept in an interview. He wants everyone to be welcome. He wants everyone to play at their own pace, in their own style. Personally, I see a poor player in a random as a challenge to me to be better, not to take the opportunity to turn someone off and away from the game. Gentle constructive advice is one thing. Harrassment and rudeness just to be rude is amazingly immature and counter-productive. It certainly won't inspire that person to improve! That is just not how human psychology works!

Besides, and quite honestly, if an expert player (especially dps) finds the run still going slowly, there's a problem with BOTH dps not just one! Take your own advice and "git gud"!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Ima be honest. If SE did away with regular mobs in dungeons and left only the minibosses and final bosses. I'd be ok with that, infact, I'd prolly enjoy doing dungeons more... If we wanted to zerg mobs we would just go do fates anyway.

---

This just leaves dungeons end up feeling empty, like FFXIV's Coil and Alexander. I think the problem is how they handle trash in FFXIV, I was playing Wildstar and it reminded me how things used to be with dungeons, in WoW too. you'd have large areas with a lot of mobs, but the catch is they died quickly, so instead of killing one godly bee in 20 seconds, you'd kill 5-10 weaker bees in 20. That feels a lot more fun to me as it feels like you're progressing faster. FFXIV dungeons feel like a crawl, a tedious, boring crawl. The Vault is better in this regard, more adds with less health, and relatively difficult bosses (seriously why is the Vault harder than Neverreap and Fractal, "expert dungeon"...).

My general feeling about the trash feeling boring is because that is pretty much how to they are designed, to be a fairly basic group of basic mobs that do pretty much the same thing that you have seen before just with more HP and they hit harder.

This is fine to a point and it pretty much functions as its supposed to, as filler, but it does make trash feel boring.

Personally I would like to see more elements of previous bosses added to trash mobs to make them more interesting and require more strategy.
For example, what if there was a trash pack that had two hard hitting mobs that would tether together and become immune to damage if they were too close to each other, so you had to keep them apart? Do you get a dps to try to tank one of them, do you try to stun lock or sleep one, how would you handle it in a light party?
This is the kind of stuff I would like to see more of with trash mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Yes and no.

Steps of faith wasn't just content it was part of the main scenario quest line lol it might have not been bad to some of us but to others it was almost impossible and locking them out of progression and that is a big no no everyone has to be able to progress in the MSQ story line...

---

Yea, exactly..it was bad cuz they put it as a gate to the expansion..lol don't put stuff like that as a requirement to access an expansion...

They should put some nice rewarding gear/weapons/stuff behind this sorta content ^^ AND THEY NEED TO STOP NERFING EVERYTHING TO THE GROUND..lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

The fact that someone is saying that it's "not okay" to be bad at a game is just making me really angry.

I can never be good, I know that. My brain can't handle doing all the abilities needed for a proper rotation and I can't process seeing an AoE fast enough to be able to dodge it every time..then add endgame content with some stressful music with a fast beat and 7 other people yelling at me how much I suck.

But you will NOT tell me I am not allowed to play this game, because I LIKE THE GAME.

Not only that, I'm a young person with these issues. I have older friends who are basically shut in their homes because of their age and illnesses and FFXIV is their only fun they have left in life anymore, until I have to listen to them cry because some self entitled douche who for some reason thinks being good at a video game is some sort of accomplishment in life went and told them they should kill themselves for making their dungeon run 5 minutes longer than usual.

---

At the same time, your poor behavior has an impact on all the poor souls running the dungeon with you. I don't ask that my DPS do perfect rotations, but the number of times I've had a dungeon FAIL because DPS totally tunnelvision and miss the mechanic they need to hit, or flail about so poorly that they can't hit the DPS check even when overgeared for the dungeon understandably makes me angry.

This is a cooperative game, which means everyone has to put in their effort. If everyone else has to put in far more effort than you do just for the group to survive the dungeon, that's where I draw the line. DPS shouldn't be a license to putz around doing stuff a healer or tank would get totally reamed for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Urthdigger

At the same time, your poor behavior has an impact on all the poor souls running the dungeon with you. I don't ask that my DPS do perfect rotations, but the number of times I've had a dungeon FAIL because DPS totally tunnelvision and miss the mechanic they need to hit, or flail about so poorly that they can't hit the DPS check even when overgeared for the dungeon understandably makes me angry.

This is a cooperative game, which means everyone has to put in their effort. If everyone else has to put in far more effort than you do just for the group to survive the dungeon, that's where I draw the line. DPS shouldn't be a license to putz around doing stuff a healer or tank would get totally reamed for.

---

Oh please, 90% of the time the issue a party is having is an entitled Tank or Healer being too busy complaining instead of actually doing their job, and if someone actually has the guts to kick them and they get replaced, suddenly the party runs smoothly, which clearly indicates none of the DPS were to blame. Then they come to these forums to whine, I assume, while we finish the dungeon.

Besides, yet again, my post was clearly talking about people who DO put in effort, but fail.

I don't even play a DPS class here (and rarely do in other games), but I can honestly say I liked FFXIV more when the focus was on respecting the mechanics of a fight, *not* DPS checks.

For example, I hate that players of a class like "Bard" have to all use what is basically the same very long list of abilities for the "opener", and then stick to a priority rotation that leaves very little room for individual innovation and personality. Yeah, that looks fun. Not.

What's really sad is I have seen players that I consider to be "above average" (in terms of being able to play smartly, follow instructions, grasp mechanics quickly, take responsibility, having a good attitude, etc) suddenly be looked down upon in favor of damage dealers who happen to have higher meter scores but suck in every other category. That's just messed up.

I just wish people could have fun with their DPS classes again, dealing reasonable damage, but playing smartly while supporting their team. That's what (used to be) different about FFXIV. Now it's back to arguing about his damage output vs her damage output vs their damage output vs.. cripes, I thought I left that nonsense behind when I came to play something more mentally stimulating over here.

I don't understand the mentality of players who play dps but can't/worry that they can't put out the numbers. If DPS rotations are too difficult, why not go tank? There are literally no complicated rotations for you to do your job properly and since you won't be in endgame progression when they are relevant, tanking for anything else is literally a breeze.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gyson

snip

---

Yea I completely regret maining a dps class especially freaking DRG, I use to have so much fun then hit 60 and started doing end game content and I'm like nope nope nope this is not fun anymore, it's not that I can't meet my requirements for dps but that's not the point, this current end game content has put a heavy burden on dps that obviously can't be met as we seem to need tanks and healers to dps just as much....

i just don't like the idea that all our rotations have to be the same or we arnt optimal even if there isn't a difference in dps out put..

but by no means am I applauding bad dps but "git gud" is a very stupid term used to loosely it wasn't meant to be derogatory but a lot of ppl have turned it into that...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Just try to take into consideration the difference between people trying and failing vs. those who don't try. Because EVERYONE assumes that they just don't try.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Auraelyn

Yoshi P addresses this concept in an interview. He wants everyone to be welcome. He wants everyone to play at their own pace, in their own style. Personally, I see a poor player in a random as a challenge to me to be better, not to take the opportunity to turn someone off and away from the game. Gentle constructive advice is one thing. Harrassment and rudeness just to be rude is amazingly immature and counter-productive. It certainly won't inspire that person to improve! That is just not how human psychology works!

---

Well said, both of you. Just as there are misconceptions about raiders being jerks and spending excessive amounts of time in the game, there are misconceptions about bad players being lazy and making mistakes on purpose. Some good players assume the bad player has the skill and knowledge to do better at that moment and is performing badly for malicious reasons. No sane person can make such rookie mistakes, right? The good player then responds to that (assumed) malicious behavior with insults or rude advice ("fking move out"). They fail to realize that the other player might not be making mistakes on purpose. It could be a senior citizen who has only recently learned to use a computer. It could be a young person who hasn't learned English yet and usually plays with their older sibling, not knowing why everyone keeps repeating his/her name in chat. It could be a disabled person, someone with cognitive issues or a person new to multiplayer gaming (some people genuinely don't consider the possibility that the other characters are real people).

I don't think it's right to tell someone to quit on the basis that they don't meet someone's arbitrary level of good play. Everyone should be welcome here. I think the reason a lot of these debates get heated is that people are talking past each others points. Good/PvE-oriented players are talking about ex trials, raids and expert dungeons, whereas others are talking about story dungeons and nm/hm trials. Just for the record, the above paragraph is mainly related to story content, and imo it's fine to exclude people who bring the group down when it comes to harder content with dps checks. I just wish people had more patience in easy content and took a bad group as a challenge to better themselves instead of getting pissy, because a lot of the time the dungeon is still doable even if you have to carry someone. It would help in building a more accepting community for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

cough BisEx cough (never stepping into that again)

---

didnt like the experience? :o hahaha

i prefer fast run 99% of the time, the other 1% is when im new to the dungeon and want to enjoy the scenary :)

but dungeons are a team effort, if the tank + healer can handle a mass pull then why not? instead of using single rotation, u use aoe rotation....u finish the dungeon faster and can rerun it again all the times u want.

I care about people's attitude in a group environment, not skill level. As long as we'll complete the content in the time allotted, then I will be happy. If people are rude I don't care how good you are or if you're world's first A4S I'll still kick you and mute you. If you're nice you can be wearing all vendor whites and die in aoe's and I won't care as long as we're not wiping to the same thing to the point we can't progress any more.

Seems the entire point here is, "Why you no speed run?" I don't personally hate speed runs but I know the key to them that people apparently don't want to believe. The pace of a speed run is set by the whole party, not just one person. Speed runs rely on the tank being able to hold hate against a large number of mobs without letting any slip, on the healer to keep the tank healthy while a large number of mobs wail on them ad nauseaum and on the DDs being able to drop the large number of mobs in a timely manner so the healer isn't having to heal a large amount of damage and the tank isn't having to burn all their buffs to mitigate so much damage. If any of these things isn't up to the task then a speed run isn't going to be viable no matter how much one of the party tries to force the issue. This is where being flexible is key and where the forums and in-practice seem to split ways.

I've been in alot of attempted speed runs where it just wasn't going to work and noone pointed fingers at anyone. We just respawned and agreed it wasn't going to work and kept going at a pace we could handle. No tears, no fuss, just a successful run from then to end. The number of rage fests from such failures I can barely remember enough to count. The forums, though, seem to only care that people either speed run or, if not, keep out of their precious content... Mayhaps the vocal minority here should take a cue from those who don't care enough to say and just enjoy the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

WoW has rotation problems. Every single MMORPG that has a rotation has this problem. With WoW though, it's slightly alleviated due to how things have evolved throughout the years. Some classes are so streamlined that it's essentially PLD combo to do your main part of the rotation with some cooldowns thrown in. They even added in a help section to your abilities window that shows the basics of how you play each individual class and spec. Still, it doesn't stop some folks from not following it.

One huge reason why it comes up a little more in FFXIV is because the devs make content that depends on DPS working together. With the exception of Heroic mode raids in a game like WoW, there's very little fear of the consequences for having sub-par DPS in most relevant content. There, a decked out DPS is essentially capable of output triple (or more) that of a fresh max level doing non-raid content. Not quite the same here, in that you wouldn't even hit double. Combine that with what you said about playerbase size between this and non-WoW MMORPGs and it makes it all the more noticeable that things are slower here.

---

I agree. WoW also recently added RNG elements to most rotations so your character's max potential is completely out of your hands, (think machinist without reload on every class), so skill is of little factor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

There is a difference between using time having fun, and wasting it in frustration because people can't be assed to pull their weight. cough BisEx cough (never stepping into that again)

---

But bismarck is great :( I had so much fun clearing that at release with everyone being i160.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

But bismarck is great :( I had so much fun clearing that at release with everyone being i160.

---

If I want my giant monster whale fix I'll play MH and battle the Dah'ren Mohran, it's definitely a lot more fun. :p

For me it's a game something I can do with my wife, and enjoy.. if it takes 10 day or 30 day to get something done so be it.

HOWEVER...

My wife put up with how I play without saying anything as she cares. Which is good because it pushes me to be a better player.
If it wasn't for my wife I would likely not have gotten 1/2 of what I got done done.

Speed runs? Read my sig....

I prefer full runs of dungeons with the mobs pulled on at a time. More loot can be collected and the risk of anyone dying is dramatically reduced. That said, I'm not against doing a speedrun if the rest of the group wants to, just that speedruns with DF groups sounds like a really bad idea since you don't exactly know how the other people play or how skillful they are.

@ OP do you pay their subscription? People shouldn't have to run DF like a raid. People should be able to go at their own pace. Sometimes I get a 15 minute DF and other times it takes 30 minutes. Why because there are people of all skill levels. People play games to have fun and they have jobs/school and you shouldn't have to play the game like a job!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blissa

@ OP do you pay their subscription? People shouldn't have to run DF like a raid. People should be able to go at their own pace. Sometimes I get a 15 minute DF and other times it takes 30 minutes. Why because there are people of all skill levels. People play games to have fun and they have jobs/school and you shouldn't have to play the game like a job!

---

Work OP so I havent got around to commenting on most the posts I disagree with here but I'll respond to this.

Of course I don't pay their sub but I do pay my own, time isn't a huge deal when I choose to DF a dungeon, and I have the mental capacity to understand not everyone has full knowledge of their class or the gear to be able to push big numbers that isn't the issue.

The issue isn't even whether the run becomes a speed run or not since this doesnt apply to just dungeons, the problem is when I let's say coach someone or attempt to in a nice fashion and I get backlash from either that person of someone else in the group.
I'm not kidding when I say I end up getting kicked half the time for offering a tip (again in a friendly manner) which is why I ask and no one has responded that I've seen, why is the part of the community who "plays how they want to" opposed to tips on improving?

At this point the "elitist" attitude the playerbase rants about all the time is no where near as prevalent as the even worse "anti-elitist" attitude of players who seem to hate those who they deem as elitist

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blissa

@ OP do you pay their subscription? People shouldn't have to run DF like a raid. People should be able to go at their own pace. Sometimes I get a 15 minute DF and other times it takes 30 minutes. Why because there are people of all skill levels. People play games to have fun and they have jobs/school and you shouldn't have to play the game like a job!

---

Why do people assume that performing a somewhat proper rotation turns the game into a job? From my perspective clicking 1-2-3 over and over like a mindless popoto turns the game into an unfun chore, it's like playing playing an FPS on easy. I know I like to challenge myself when I play games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blissa

@ OP do you pay their subscription? People shouldn't have to run DF like a raid. People should be able to go at their own pace. Sometimes I get a 15 minute DF and other times it takes 30 minutes. Why because there are people of all skill levels. People play games to have fun and they have jobs/school and you shouldn't have to play the game like a job!

---

Of course he doesn't, but on the same note they don't pay for the OPs. The point is to have fun, but peoples opinions on what is fun varies. This then conflicts with other people. Take me for example, what do I find enjoyable? Being able to see the actual movements of the characters without 10 mobs huddled around me and blinding my eyes with AOES to the point where a retina detaches. Not everyone wants to go slow, but in this game of compromise I might speed things up to where I can still enjoy everything.

You're right people should have fun but at the same time both ends need to take time to realize that they need to give up something in return, that is where everything hits the fan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

Why do people assume that performing a somewhat proper rotation turns the game into a job? From my perspective clicking 1-2-3 over and over like a mindless popoto turns the game into an unfun chore, it's like playing playing an FPS on easy. I know I like to challenge myself when I play games.

---

It's not so much that you're having to do a rotation but it's the way it is handled, whether the user knows it or not, saying something in certain ways will give you better results most of the time. For example a Gladiator isn't using flash, instead of "how about you learn your $%#^ing job and quit wasting my time?" (actual quote there from a DPS in a dungeon I was healing) and instead go "The mobs are attacking the DPS"? One scenario the tank rages and refuses to listen, the other takes about 5 minutes more to explain but in the end turns out that flash was not being used, but then implemented and the DPS also learned maybe we should attack the targeted mob marked as X or 1 instead of just randomly choosing a mob. In the end compromise, tank needs to learn flash properly and the DPS need to not go gun-ho on every random mob, instead if you're using single target help kill what's being focused on.

Then again them saying playing the game for fun can be looked at in two ways, if you're performing well you're having fun, if you're figuring something out on your own you're having fun. Nobody likes being told they are wrong, so without knowing it a user who is having "fun" but doing a bad rotation or lack using skills that really make a difference can be coached into using things while still thinking they're having the same amount of fun.

Still you got the extreme from both ends, the one player who refuses to listen "whateva, I do what I want!" those can't be helped, they're out there in the real world and in the game. Then you got the ones on the other end who would have no problem clearing your entire bloodline from the face of this earth all because you missed the limit break. It's a mixture of compromise, the ones who refuse to budge result in the situations that cause anger.

The negative kind of anger from both ends produces the whole silent treatment, where you go in say like Steps and go "everyone ready? okay with what to do?" silence...until that one impatient person says "Pull already" and when you do, towers aren't taken, cannons are empty they're the first ones to yell at us all.

It's not that people don't want to improve, it's how you are trying to improve them. If all you do is tell people that they aren't performing well and should be doing this instead of that then yes, you are going to get resistance because you're not being helpful, you're being bossy. I've not seen people like this very often, but every time it's ticked me off. I mean, if someone is going to be like that then why aren't they playing the class they're chastising? Lead by example, and what. Rare is it that someone actually asks the person they want to help what they are doing as the class. Being rude doesn't win you anyone's attention, only their ire.

"Speed run" shouldn't even be a thing. The dungeon should just be inherently fast even with 1 pack pulls and 1DPS letting their dog play for them. That's SE's problem. They try to make 4 man dungeons (which we're all only in for tomes) be weighty which leads to "git gud, skrubz" speeches. That kind of conversion should only exist in a raid environment, not some low man DF daily dungeon spam.

This isn't to say FF 4 man dungeons are hard, they're not, but they're incredibly draggy given just how many people can't handle something about them.

They've greatly improved on this since launch; however, they need to go further.

I'm no against parsers as such just people who use them to be an idiot. If people want to use one to learn how to get the most out of their DPS then great but some people seem to see it as an e-peen contest where they rant on in chat at whoever is bottom of the list. That's not helping anything that's being a disruption to the run. I feel about the same on using STR accessories. If you can use them and do well with it then great. If they cause somebody to be a hindrance then they shouldn't use them.

I don't understand this unyielding obsession so many people in this game have with speedrunning. If an instance takes longer than 10 minutes, it's almost like some of you are ready to blow your brains out. I'm not opposed to speedrunning, but sometimes you just can't and that's okay.

This is how I feel about the absence of parsers though. I am well aware of the benefits that parsers provide. I have absolutely zero faith in the community at large to use them responsibly. I already said in a different thread a while back that the most they should do is add parsers to premades only and even then, I still think that's probably a sketchy idea because it's just going to lead to people begging for them to add parsers to DF groups.

Isn't it just people misunderstanding these posts though?

Most people don't ask that everyone does maximum DPS in dungeons, but in many cases, players are doing the same DPS you would be doing if you just Auto attack or something (well kinda).

If both DPS, Tank and maybe the healer does average DPS, then the run wouldn't take long at all to finish.

For example, I play MNK, and all I need to do to get average DPS, is to constantly press buttons... Doesn't even have to be the right rotation.

I feel like many here are against having to do good DPS in dungeons, when in reality, they're doing average DPS, and nobody would complain if everyone did that amount of DPS.


Also, on parsers... Players are already using them, so no point in discussing whether you think players should be able to use them in dungeons (for example) or not... I still haven't seen anyone getting harassed for having low DPS in any content outside raids, and in raids you have to have parsers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Craiger

Isn't it just people misunderstanding these posts though?

Most people don't ask that everyone does maximum DPS in dungeons, but in many cases, players are doing the same DPS you would be doing if you just Auto attack or something (well kinda).

If both DPS, Tank and maybe the healer does average DPS, then the run wouldn't take long at all to finish.

---

Yeah that's the misconception I'm trying to address, the people giving you tips or even calling you out arent out to get you, before they even knew you existed they didn't have some personal vendetta, it's as simple as someone giving you a tip is just trying to help you it's that easy

Now my opinion personally is not what im about to ask but ive never heard this question yet, "Is it too hard to find like minded people to run content with?", Ive read so many responses such as like "Tough it out, there's a party finder", or "Find an fc and run it with them", "Thats not what duty finder is for" ect...

Now while i think there are plenty of chances to play with people who share your values, maybe i just have thicker skin and know what to expect when it comes to a randomized draft like Duty Finder.

So does anyone think its too hard for the average joe to find like minded people??? I personally don't think so.

OP is right about how the play bad culture is. People don't only enable it, they promote it, mostly using the "you pay for your sub, you do what you want, when you want, to who you want".

A perfect example would be on of the threads on this fourm, titled something like "my AST is weak." . In that thread the OP couldn't heal a DRK in Dusk Vigil. Half of the responses without any actual knowlage were basically "Crap tank, poor you." Anyone who bothered to look saw the fool was using a lvl 43 weapon where at least 115 shoul be used. On top of that the healer has no idea how to properly heal, since he only keeps one benefic on his hot bar. At the time benefic I at that. End result the poster said something along the lines of "Welp, looks like it was just a crappy tank. Imma keep on keepin on".

Good job forums, you just coddled a terrible healer and sent him back out when a little education would probably made every run of his easier(and more enjoyable) on him and anyone he runs with in the future. As a result of the info he found here, how many painful runs will be had until he actually figures it out or drops the class.

People on the the supporting side of play as bad as you like always seem to think the team is there solely for them, and that they aren't there for the team.

People really need to drop 'paid for the sub' as an argument. Everyone pays through and through in time and money to be here, but that doesn't given you full reign to drag everybody else down to your level. Many things that you pay for, if you mess up enough, they'll take it away - driver's licenses, XBox subscriptions, even internet and phone.

Just because it's a subscription game doesn't mean it should shelter you from acting like a human being.

I think the core of the problem of bad players is the game, not the community that advocates playing like a potato. There's nothing in this game that is actually difficult and is necessary to reaching level cap, even optional dungeons are the easiest thing and when they're "hard", they're immediately nerfed to the ground to the point of not being fun. I played a little more WildStar earlier and hit level 10, did my first dungeon and was blown away. I went in expecting Satasha, and I got Fractal. That's right, a level 10 tutorial dungeon (it is literally a tutorial dungeon with bosses intended to teach you mechanics with an announcer telling you to interrupt) is as difficult, if not more difficult than a level 60 "expert" dungeon. You had to interrupt the bosses or it would result in an instant wipe, they gave you plenty of time to do it as it is a tutorial, but it still forces you to learn that those mechanics are necessary. The final boss actually has a DPS check and decent mechanics that took my party 2 wipes to get down and was engaging and difficult than both level 60 dungeons we have now even on the 2nd time I did it when I knew exactly what to do.

I guess at the end of the day we have to deal with players with the "I pay my sub so I do what I want" attitude in Duty Finder, but if I put up my own party anyone like that is getting kicked, no exceptions.

I wonder sometimes if "bad dps" is because being a damage dealer in this game is...Maybe not HARDER than in other games but different in a way that is more unforgiving.

My go to comparison is always WoW because WoW was my one true love for many years. Say what you want about that game in its current state, in its day it played like a dream (and still does, mostly). As DPS your job was doing the correct rotation or following the correct priority checklist while being aware of your surroundings. Like in FFXIV, yes?

Except more classes seem to have rotations more so than priorities in this game and if the rotation is not done perfectly some classes are punished severely. WoW, and many other games, are not quite as unforgiving. You might do lower damage if you mess up but the rapid global cooldown and ability to macro certain attacks together (a self-buff and an attack, usually, so your buffs are always up) means you can get back up onto your feet faster. Every boss in WoW had an enrage timer too but they weren't has hardwired into the encounters as they are here.

So people who are used to games that are more rotationally forgiving might come here and a slip up that would cause a momentary lapse elsewhere might cause almost a minute of low damage in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gralna

I personally don't care either way at what speed DF parties want to run, although I am always a bit leery when I see a tank run off to start a speed run, before healer can even buff us.

---

That's why I put protect and stoneskin on my pld, that and for taking care of ressed people during raids, if I handle the protect and hit with clemency the healer only has to swiftcast>raise>focus me again.

The only time you are forced to play with random people is 24 man raids. Other than that there is no reason you should ever had to play with these terrible people ruining your experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaktica

I don't understand this unyielding obsession so many people in this game have with speedrunning. If an instance takes longer than 10 minutes, it's almost like some of you are ready to blow your brains out. I'm not opposed to speedrunning, but sometimes you just can't and that's okay.

---

My guess is the same people who are upset about anything more than 15 minutes in a dungeon complain about a lack of content. MMOs... social games right full of anti-social people.

IMO, we wouldn't need to even have this thread if we had more endgame content. Everyone is sick of their 500th Neverreap run and just want it to be over so when it takes longer than it needs to, people get mad.

This might be cliched, but I think we shouldn't hate the player, we should hate the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RocheKat

My guess is the same people who are upset about anything more than 15 minutes in a dungeon complain about a lack of content. MMOs... social games right full of anti-social people.

---

Though to be fair in DF, your chance of grouping with those same 3/7 people are pretty slim, so as it goes, why worry about what they say if your never going to see them again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RocheKat

My guess is the same people who are upset about anything more than 15 minutes in a dungeon complain about a lack of content. MMOs... social games right full of anti-social people.

---

That's a mighty bold assumption. I'm fine with dungeons taking up to 30 minutes or so, especially in DF, if it's for relatively sane reasons. However I'm also in the 'lack of content' camp. Also, I'd argue against MMOs really being all that social unless you're talking about the highest-of-high-end with complex mechanics, because otherwise everything you need to know is telegraphed in an easily observed and understandable way that you should be able to learn to do by yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acheron_Abolisher

IMO, we wouldn't need to even have this thread if we had more endgame content. Everyone is sick of their 500th Neverreap run and just want it to be over so when it takes longer than it needs to, people get mad.

This might be cliched, but I think we shouldn't hate the player, we should hate the game.

---

We wouldn't need to have this thread if we had content with rewards that enticed a larger portion of the playerbase to improve their play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

I really dislike the fact that people expect or resort to enticement to do something. It seriously just makes it seem like the devs are parents trying to make their kids (us) do their chores so that they can get their allowance. "If you take out the trash every week, you can take the car on the weekends" "Ugh! Fine! I hate you!"

---

If that's what it takes to get people to at the very least read tooltips and think about how the mechanics of the job they play works because SE sure as hell won't encourage people to do that at any point during leveling or during any part of the main scenario (or any side stories either for that matter).