i got a question for you dps..

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't MCH so I didn't realize Feint is something that's actually recommended. At least some class is getting a use out of it xD

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More use than One Ilm Punch in a PvE setting.

As a Monk, or any other job without detaunt, I just try to switch targets for awhile if i notice that the tank is about to lose aggro over me to give them time to secure aggro back (unless the mob is obviously about to die). Honestly I just feel that many players aren't mindful enough about the nuances of the other 2 perspectives outside of dps and are quick to make knee-jerk reactions because they aren't often tracking their own enmity when it's very high.

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Originally Posted by Makarrov

As a tank i dont need a lot of time to get going but if i see a fire2 or dragonfire dive land between my tomahawk/shield lob gcd and the next that will be overpower/flash ill likely stop and let thay dps die to the group they just pulled. If they cant wait the extra 2 seconds for a single tank aoe to hit they can tank it themselves.

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I love this, simply because i feel if the tank lets me die, i will stay dead. I will go afk, and the party can pick up what the tank let me drop. (This is with dungeons).

In raids, if i pulled hate, regardless of when, it's too late. Especially with the double standard against dps (You didn't do enough dps, we didn't beat enrage vs Calm down on dps, you're riding my threat). As a dps you either DO max dps or you DON'T. Most competent dps don't unload before the tank hits something, but if I start tanking after the fight has already begun, someone is lacking, and it's not me.

I just really hate this "Let the dps die to teach them a lesson" thing that most people take up. Makes me just want to stay on the ground and go afk anytime i purposefully feel that a tank or healer lets that happen (which isn't often). However petty it may seem, to be down a dps until they win or they loose is my lesson to them.

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Originally Posted by Shirobi

#1

TL;DR Stop trying to tank in DPS gear and using your DPS stance and this should never be a problem for you.

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Dps gear actually helps tanks keep hate.

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Originally Posted by Shirobi

#1

TL;DR Stop trying to tank in DPS gear and using your DPS stance and this should never be a problem for you.

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Dps gear actually helps tanks keep hate.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

I love this, simply because i feel if the tank lets me die, i will stay dead. I will go afk, and the party can pick up what the tank let me drop. (This is with dungeons).

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You're adding more to this hypothetical scenario here.I never said I'd let the party deal with the pack, just the dps that was so eager to get in there before the tank. I suppose it's hard to understand my position without having actually played with me. I don't go slow when I tank. I go fast enough to always keep the dps busy but not so fast that the healer is constantly running oom. I won't pull bosses unless people have >75% of their primary resource (at least in dungeons, when I was raid tanking it was obviously different). Point being, I keep a constant quick pace so when someone feels the need to run out in front of me it's like being cut in line or cut off while driving. It's nothing that couldn't have been handled, it's just a d*** move.


As I said before, I'm a long time mmo dps too. I see both sides and know what a dps jobs responsibilities are and know my capabilities as a tank are sufficient enough to hold off somewhat equally geared/skilled dps if they aren't jumping the gun.

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Originally Posted by Shirobi

Why are you opening with a combo on a boss and not a high enmity opener leading into a combo? Where was Provoke? You know the DPS are gonna unload a massive burst to start. Do the same, then establish your combo after you've weathered the storm and need to focus on steady, long term threat generation.

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Provoke is not an enmity generating ability please don't try helping other people with bad advice. Provoke only puts you over the #1 person with hate, no matter what your enmity is at. The only time to use provoke is when "someone" else has argo, not to build emnity with it.

Now if you were implying about where was provoke when they lost argo that would make sense, but due to the fact that you asked about "high enmity opener" and then followed up with where was provoke, and previously you made a horrible statement indicating that dps gear was worse to hold hate in, leads me to believe that you dont have a proper understanding of how enmity works for this game. Also bards dont lose any dps for using quelling strikes.



@ OP , it sounds like this is a problem with the dps having better gear and you being undergeared(having your weapon at the highest ilvl helps tremendously) or a rotation error on your part, It could be a little of all the above. If its the former, well, youre just going to have to deal with it the best possible way, keeping provoke(theres literally no reason to ever use it outside of argo management) ready for those times.

Honestly the attitude from the bard should tell you more than what you need to know, as any main bard will tell you, at the lv 50 cap it was really easy to pull hate off any tank with an opener if you didn't have quelling strikes up. The amount of burst and RNG from crits that you could get was absurd even compared to a blackmage back then. At 60 I have no experience with that as a lot of their kit recieved tuning, but at 50 quelling was generally your opener on bosses there's no reason why you cant still have it in there, you lose absolutely nothing using it pre-pull.

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Originally Posted by Hitoseijuro

Now if you were implying about where was provoke when they lost argo that would make sense, but due to the fact that you asked about "high enmity opener" and then followed up with where was provoke, and previously you made a horrible statement indicating that dps gear was worse to hold hate in, leads me to believe that you dont have a proper understanding of how enmity works for this game. Also bards dont lose any dps for using quelling strikes.

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This IS what I was implying. When he lost aggro, why did he not use Provoke?

Also, please try to be less toxic in your replies.

Where are you guys finding all these dps that are so good they just rip agro right off you? My issue is that dps are so bad 90% of the time I can tank without grit and 1 agro combo at start of fight is more than enough to hold hate the rest of it. Sometimes I get a dps who comes close by the time the boss is almost dead but it's rare.

Edit: this is at 60, if your a new toon without your full agro combo or tanking stance it can be a pain against high level synced dps

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Originally Posted by Shirobi

This IS what I was implying. When he lost aggro, why did he not use Provoke?

Also, please try to be less toxic in your replies.

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There is nothing toxic in my replies, no where did I insult you, call you names, flame you, or troll you. I stated that you dont know how enmity works if someone is asking about having emnity problems and you state "TL;DR Stop trying to tank in DPS gear ".

I called you out on the provoke comment but I had already explained how your wording lead one to believe this along with other evidence. I mean you make it sound like a warrior has a high enmity opener of some sort that isnt spamming over power or spamming non combo'd butchers block for a quick hate spike which isnt an ideal opener for a single target boss. Outside of overpower/tomahawk, your main enmity is tide into your combos.

Warrior ideal opener would involve : overpower/tomahawk --> heavy swing--> maim --> storm's eye --> heavy swing--> skull sunder --> butcher's block(obviously with all your off globals thrown in between each skill, this is just for simplistic sake) if hes being outgeared by a bit, I would advise to swapping butcher's block rotation before storm's eye for : overpower/tomahawk --> heavy swing --> skull sunder--> butcher's block --> heavy swing --> maim --> storm's eye.

When you say "high enmity opener" not a combo, I have no idea what you mean, a full butcher's block combo rotation is better than any thing you can use when it comes to total enmity, its not optimal as a min/max tank rotation but its great for enmity while dealing dmg still.

over power --> over power --> over power ---> over power = 5520

over power --> heavy swing --> skull sunder --> butcher's block = 6877



Dps gear has nothing to do with losing enmity, its quite the opposite.


edit: the problem here just seems to stem from the tank having to move right away within seconds of the pull due to mechanics before even establishing any kind of hate and had problems afterward, but provoke with proper rotation will deal with this situation easily unless ofcourse you are under geared versus the dps.

Elusive Jump isn't going to save you from being a bad tank.

I'll just build enmity right back up and steal hate again. Maybe you should consider using slaying accessories so your threat generation is stronger.

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Originally Posted by Makarrov

As a tank i dont need a lot of time to get going but if i see a fire2 or dragonfire dive land between my tomahawk/shield lob gcd and the next that will be overpower/flash ill likely stop and let thay dps die to the group they just pulled.

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As a dragoon, I can tank the entirety of the expert dungeons. So, really, that just makes you a jerk for not doing your job properly.

As a monk if I pull something off of you then I either out gear you or you are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Icebrand

As a dragoon, I can tank the entirety of the expert dungeons. So, really, that just makes you a jerk for not doing your job properly.

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In the case of me out gearing the tank this is normally true as well. If you can't tank I probably can since normal dungeons don't have the tank busters raid and trial bosses do.

For me, I can only use {Shade Shift}. Once activated, I'll just turn my back for a bit until the tank regain control of mob.

As tank, I have been know to let a DPS solo his own mob if he is still buffing and using weaponskills while I'm Flashing and stuff. I hate when a DPS who takes aggro run away from Cover :(

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Originally Posted by Icebrand

Elusive Jump isn't going to save you from being a bad tank.

I'll just build enmity right back up and steal hate again. Maybe you should consider using slaying accessories so your threat generation is stronger.

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I love for the DPS players to go all out. What I DON'T like is when they PULL AND GO ALL OUT...Sheesh! If you overgear me, I can still manage to keep hate so long as I don't slack off, meaning I must spam {Rage of Halone} and skip {Goring Blade} for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Divinehero

way to assume there.. i'm almost always in full tanking gear and stance.. nice example is this brd who decided to keep unloading into ultros at the start of the fight and since he dropped an aoe on me early i didn't have enuf time to properly establish threat.. i call him out on this and his response boiled down to "lol u lost aggro to a bard?" when i didn't even get a chance to use a full enmity combo yet

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Get STR ACC or i150 crafted and spec STR. The problem should disappear.

If there are aggro issues during end game contents, i.e Alex savage or Coils, it is 100% tanks problem. Learn a proper enmity opener. I started main tanking in FCOB, first runs, I had major issues with aggro opening especially in T10 and T11 where you would have to start the battle by aggro'ing the boss to center. After I learned the proper pally enmity rotation, never had that issue again, no matter how op dps was, or if dps lb'ed opener i.e t11.

A solid opener for boss fight as war,without using buffs: tomohawk brutal swing overpowering twice then butchers block combo. To boost with buffs could use berserk(pacification can get annoying during openers) or pop unchained first

I make a game out of ripping aggro off tanks. If they can hold it, it means I can dish out the damage without having to worry. If they can't, then I should probably use elusive or be ready to use some cd's as they're probably undergeared or in a worst case scenario just poorly skilled. If it's a big fight with a boss I won't survive a few hits against, then yeah I'll elusive. But generally I like to save elusive for knockbacks and other mechanics.

...the op is probably a terrible tank the only holds threat on one target and forgets the rest.

Cause I ain't leveling ARC to 34 when I want to play BLM, lol.

Having been on both sides of this issue:

As a tank, you should never have issue with hate. People talk about undergeared this and that - I successfully held against top-of-the line dps in i60 tank gear as a Warrior on Titan HM against full i110 dps without even a remote issue, while keeping Storm's Eye up. With my current Paladin loadout, I hold hate against dps pulling 1000+ in Fractal while in Sword Oath with no issues at all. DPS pulling that high force me to sacrifice the like... 50? maybe 75? dps that go along with using some Rage of Halone combos, but if they're performing that well, I don't care that I drop to 850 instead of pulling 900. If I'm running with dps who are pulling 1400+, I'll just open in Shield Oath, do one (unbuffed) Rage of Halone combo and then swap to Sword. That single combo is always enough to hold hate for the rest of the encounter. This has been with Bards who don't use quelling and other such stuff. WHM is the only class who's ever come REALLY close to pulling off me (heals+dps does stupid aggro), but they had to drop hate for mana regen before they actually pulled.
As a tank, if you're having trouble with aggro, put on more strength accessories. Full VIT is really not ideal. I ran that when I was a fresh 60 in all green gear, running Shield Oath because lol 1500 defense (and still having no problems) but slowly phased out to full strength, Sword Oath as I geared up and reached i190.

As Dragoon, I made myself a macro using the [Please Draw Enmity] auto-translate followed by three irritating sound effects because I'm an asshole. I only pop it when I use Elusive Jump and STILL have hate. Which has happened before. It's a product of tanks grossly underestimating dps and rolling no tank stance + no enmity combos and then having it be FAR too late to rectify it by the time I slam my Full Thrust and see that I'm solidly 3x their hate.


The only time I blame the DPS for pulling hate is when you're pulling trash mobs. If I pull a group of 4-5 and one of my dps pops cooldowns and burns one of them down, I actually say - out loud - "Fuck 'em." and thoroughly ignore it. It's not your job as the tank to hold full single-target enmity on every one of the 5 mobs in the pull. It's their job as a DPS to not be terrible and actually use AoE when the situation calls for it. Every class has it. No class will pull single target threat off Flash, Overpower, or Unleash if they're using it. None.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

1) you still had enough time to establish threat.

2) you could have dodged to the side and kept attacking.

3) provoke -> shield lob

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shield lob -> provoke....

I don't understand why tanks are starting off there rotation with provoke....all you have to do is get within distance and you have an automatic provoke. Provoke should be save for lost of aggro or pulling distant adds

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Originally Posted by ForbiddenMonk

shield lob -> provoke....

I don't understand why tanks are starting off there rotation with provoke....all you have to do is get within distance and you have an automatic provoke. Provoke should be save for lost of aggro or pulling distant adds

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Malevicton was referring to ways you could fix things in the situation provided by the other poster. If you lose hate, you use Provoke > Shield Lob, not the other way around. They were criticizing the tank for losing aggro due to dodging an aoe. Your post seems to ignore the context of the quote's response.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Malevicton was referring to ways you could fix things in the situation provided by the other poster. If you lose hate, you use Provoke > Shield Lob, not the other way around. They were criticizing the tank for losing aggro due to dodging an aoe. Your post seems to ignore the context of the quote's response.

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He lost aggro on opener. Provoke and a shield lob is crap way to re-establish aggro especially if lost in opener. Try that tactic in T10, lose aggro on the pull or lose aggro on wild charge, good luck provoking and shield lobbing your aggro back. Or T11 when tanking sphere and lossing aggro to caster, provoking and shield lobing aggro back from that is reckless. provoke and shield lob is pretty useless if you can't immediately land another enmity skill after.


This is coming from a SCOB(savage) and FCOB progression cleared Pld.

To answer OP's question. Assuming a single boss encounter, if i have to use quelling strikes so the tank could keep aggro on initial pull, the tank isn't do his job properly.

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Originally Posted by CookieCakes

To answer OP's question. Assuming a single boss encounter, if i have to use quelling strikes so the tank could keep aggro on initial pull, the tank isn't do his job properly.

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If you're not using Quelling Strikes even if you don't need to, you're not doing your job properly either.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you're not using Quelling Strikes even if you don't need to, you're not doing your job properly either.

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There is no reason for me to use quelling strikes if the tank is holding aggro confidently. If I use it randomly just because the cooldown is up, I may not be able to use it when an emergency arises, such as if the tank dies, or an add spawns

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you're not using Quelling Strikes even if you don't need to, you're not doing your job properly either.

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There's less circumstances to even need quelling strikes either nowadays; the boss splits with a mirror enmnity list, or add spawns need to be fixated on a dps anyway.

And if there was, you're better off using it for add spawns where they need to die asap as well as the tanks having to take immediate aggro on it.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you're not using Quelling Strikes even if you don't need to, you're not doing your job properly either.

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I'll precast it for my opener but past that I won't use it unless I need to. Animation lock is only like .2 seconds or so, which is pretty negligible, but it's a decision between .2 seconds of doing something that has an effect or .2 seconds of doing something that has no effect. Again, it's negligible and I get that, but I'd rather have a negligible gain than a negligible loss.

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Originally Posted by ForbiddenMonk

This is coming from a SCOB(savage) and FCOB progression cleared Pld.

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All I was referencing was the fact you swapped the skill order in your response. I'll assume it was a typo. I didn't say Provoke>Lob is the best way to get hate back, but if you're doing casual content such as Ultros and your dps aren't bags of dicks, it's all you should need in basically every situation unless you're massively undergeared.

The bolded meaning they see you provoke and they lay off slightly, switch targets, or use their enmity drop skill. It's casual content, it's not raid we're talking about. If you're losing hate in a raid setting, you're doing something wrong and should fix your playstyle or yell at your WHM for spamming C3 when it's not needed. You should never have to resort to Provoke to get hate back except for a tank swap in a raid setting.

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Originally Posted by CookieCakes

an add spawns

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

you're better off using it for add spawns

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Originally Posted by CookieCakes

Assuming a single boss encounter

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'Round my parts, "single boss encounter" means that there's only a single boss for the encounter, no adds, so you wouldn't need to save it for adds in a single boss encounter, so, I mean, unless "single boss encounter" means something different for you, there's that context.

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Originally Posted by CookieCakes

If I use it randomly just because the cooldown is up

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

I'll precast it for my opener but past that I won't use it unless I need to.

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Originally Posted by CookieCakes

so the tank could keep aggro on initial pull

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Initial pull isn't "using it randomly". Initial pull is where openers tend to happen.

Hooray for context.

hurray for context that you added after the fact :P

Don't even need it for the opener, either. More of a "why not" thing

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

hurray for context that you added after the fact :P

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I added the context to another person's post that I was replying to after I had replied to them? Are you accusing me of being a time traveler? Man, I wish I was. Find out what the biggest lottery jackpot ever was and play the winning number for that.

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Don't even need it for the opener, either. More of a "why not" thing

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Right, and I said "whether you need it or not". It doesn't reduce your DPS to use it in your opener, but it helps to give the tank a wider lead in threat, allowing them to use more DPS skills/stance if it wasn't needed, or get more threat if it is. It's part of working as a team rather than just working in a group.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Right, and I said "whether you need it or not". It doesn't reduce your DPS to use it in your opener, but it helps to give the tank a wider lead in threat, allowing them to use more DPS skills/stance if it wasn't needed, or get more threat if it is. It's part of working as a team rather than just working in a group.

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It's the same reason you should expect your Ninja to throw Silhouette on you as the Main Tank on the pull, every pull. Because you can pop it pre-pull, so why not? It's also the same reason you should expect your Ninja to be ready to throw Smoke Balls at parts where your healer threatens hate or toss one on the other melee on pull to slow their hate generation and let the MT open with more dps moves. As a DPS, you should work *with* the party, not against it.

As Dragoon, if I'm running casual content and my MT dies and I have hate, the second I see hate switch to the OT, I hit Elusive Jump, even if it's a dps loss. I pass my lead to them and give myself a buffer to not worry about pulling it back. Everyone breathes easier and I lose 10-15 dps. Which is still 10-15 more than other dps lose by using Quelling Strikes.


Like, yeah. The tank SHOULD be able to hold against you without Quelling, but if you USE it, you help the raid as a whole without doing a single thing to hinder yourself. I don't see how this is something that needs to be debated.

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Originally Posted by Shirobi

#1 Its a DPS loss usually, if not used at the start of a fight and even then there shouldnt be a reason for having to us it.

#2 If you are tanking properly this should never be an issue past the very early levels of the game. Tanks need next to no lead in time, and, barring special fight mechanics, should never be coming close to losing threat to the DPS.

TL;DR Stop trying to tank in DPS gear and using your DPS stance and this should never be a problem for you.

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I hate to tell you this but STR (DPS) gear actually increases our emnity. So yeah Im just gonna keep using my slaying accessories while you can keep thinking I am stupid for not having bloated VIT and rocking useless Fending gear.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

It's the same reason you should expect your Ninja to throw Silhouette on you as the Main Tank on the pull, every pull. Because you can pop it pre-pull, so why not? It's also the same reason you should expect your Ninja to be ready to throw Smoke Balls .

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The ninja enmity moves aren't up anywhere near every pull.

If dps is doing enough damage to steal aggro on a single mob, let them have it. They won't die and their dps should be enough to kill it outright. If they say something to you then that's on them. When I take aggro the enemies dead within the next 5 seconds and a defensive debuff is activated. This is a complete non issue. If the issue is mouthy dps then yeah, there is plenty of that in this game. There is no enemy in the game that will one on one kill a dps unless the dps are so undergeared they shouldn't be there or it's a raid scenario in which you don't really see this happening as pulls are typically pre planned.

I had a t-shirt made...

"Summoner. If I have hate, someone else f*cked up."

Seriously, though... In the vast majority of this game, either the DPS check is too tight to cater to sub-par tanks, or the content isn't dangerous enough to matter. Yes, I occasionally pull a couple stray adds off the tank in large trash pulls, but whatever turns to me dies too fast to really matter. Yes, random DF groups can pair top-notch DPS with scrub tanks who don't have a prayer of a chance holding hate. However, in that instance, the trash won't pose and serious threat to the over-geared DPS. If they die, it's because they stood in AoEs, in which case even holding hate on the trash won't fix their stupidity.

Otherwise, a decent tanks shouldn't have issues holding hate. If they do, they should probably take a look at themselves first before pointing fingers.

I dont think bards need to worry about quelling strikes(2.5 bard was a whole new monster with opening enmity), I don't see summoners needing to worry about quelling strikes, I do think as a blm if you have a bard, for your opener using quelling strikes would be beneficial in the chance you happen to get lucky crits in, 10-14k crits in an opener or 2 lucky ones in can really spin a mob around especially if the tank has not finished his enmity combo. Honestly, it lasts 15 seconds, you probably only need 10 seconds of its cushion so you can pre-pop it before a pull.

Although I don't main a tanking class I had a few experiences like these while tanking. It's like they're main goal is to pull off aggro from you because they think it's cool or something.

I think its both the Tank and the DPS's responsibility really. Like what people said, all tanks have access to Provoke, so tanks can just steal the aggro back and rev up the enmity generation if that's the game they wanna play. If they unload everything as DPS then just step it up a notch and keep up. Stealing aggro from a tank is a no-no. I usually just let them die a few times or just keep up since most players don't really have the time to waste when playing.

As a DPS I do what I can to maximize my damage but my main priority really is to not steal aggro, that is the most important thing. If the tank didn't generate enough enmity and the DPS just doesn't wanna let up then it's really gonna be a bad day. If you're a DPS that does this shame on you.

But then again what do I know.