Sorry, but no tank should pure vit stack right side.

as a tank my accessories are going to be STR but everything else is going to be VIT, i find easier to tank when i have stacked VIT and it gives the healer a break at being a healbot and allow them to do some dos

Personally as a war/drk main, I've found more benefit in stacking str than vit, especially on warrior where that extra damage allows me to regen more with inner beast/bloodbath/equilibrium. When I play with my sch brother or friend, I do all str right side and they never have any complaints, they're still able to get their banes/shadowflares out and it's all good. If I have to go random healer, then I'll do 1/2 vit accessories just in case, but it's always been fine. In my personal experience, I've never found going all/most str to be a huge detriment to my group, and this is talking about ex runs/alex/rav ex. Haven't had the pleasure of doing savage yet.

I think I'm 3/5 VIT right side(3 vit accessories) MY build was to always have more STR than vit equipped but enough VIT that makes sense. I don't want to be one of those tanks with HP pool so tiny, a healer can't keep me alive with cure II(or whatever is their midtier heal).

Am I the only one that wants it to be how it used to back in the good ol' days when agro management was a thing?

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Originally Posted by Twilite

I think I'm 3/5 VIT right side(3 vit accessories) MY build was to always have more STR than vit equipped but enough VIT that makes sense. I don't want to be one of those tanks with HP pool so tiny, a healer can't keep me alive with cure II(or whatever is their midtier heal).

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And there's nothing wrong with that if that's where your comfort level is. I'm specifically talking about tanks that are pure vit, to the point of using a lower ilvl vit ring rather than a equivalent ilvl slaying ring. I'm definitely not talking about people with 5/5 pentamelds ether, they're just beast mode all around even if it's a bit excessive. But loading up on full unmelded fending is just willfully embracing ignorance of what Vit and Strength actually do for your character in favor of this TANK=VIT rigid way of thinking(or lack thereof).

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

It's cool if you guys like the meat wall fantasy but too much vit is not only excessive, it also hurts your aggro gen. Dps shouldn't have to throttle dps just so you can keep your training wheels on.

I'm not saying everyone has to load up on pure str or pure melded, but pure vit is the worst kind of overkill.

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That's just your opinion bro.

Actually, the game should be more geared to making tanks need tanking gear, not moving ever closer to the great dps race. But thats a problem.for the devs to sort out.

I like tanks with a little more vit, since I normally run df. It give me a buffer for healing that dps that cant dodge, before switching back to the tank.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

That's just your opinion bro.

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troll harder pls

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

troll harder pls

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Yolo groovy with VIT accessories only orz

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Yes, this debate is useless because the full STR pros are never gonna accept that other tanks are not them, and they can't dictate how other tanks should gear.

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Nah I'll accept that. ;x I'm more on the wall about healer DPS as that's actually a considerable increase due to the fact you pull in a entirely new source of damage. Even if a Tank is full Vit, their still contributing to some type of DPS, them staying on their feet and having enough cushion if they can't handle cool downs for the healer to DPS imo is better in 4 man dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Am I the only one that wants it to be how it used to back in the good ol' days when agro management was a thing?

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Probably. But you can do aggro management now. Think almost every class has a means to lower or transfer their hate to someone else now, which is good for newer tanks or tanks that have problems keeping hate (their out there)

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

troll harder pls

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Lol, why are you so defensive? It truly is just your opinion. To which everyone is entitled to. No need to get salty friend. :^)

I also have NO problem holding aggro with full VIT. I hold aggro just fine while maximizing my HP. Making it easier on the healer while the DPS nukes down the enemies all the while I still output decent numbers. Sure I'm not going to out DPS a WAR, but that goes without saying. (PLD)

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

That research is over two years old. It is well out of date and not correct. This is better and more recent: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...modifier_info/

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Thx for the link, but i cant find any data/tests related to how flash scales with str? I understand that enmity scales with damage, but we where talking about flash which deals no damage.

So you base your assumption on the fact that str increases damage in a linear way and its logical that it should also increase flash linear. The problem i have with this, is that this was also the case for the old damage testcase and yet flash did not scale linear with str in the tests done. So there seems to-be no real data on this actually?

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Originally Posted by Andy22

Thx for the link, but i cant find any data/tests related to how flash scales with str? I understand that enmity scales with damage, but we where talking about flash which deals no damage.

So you base your assumption on the fact that str increases damage in a linear way and its logical that it should also increase flash linear. The problem i have with this, is that this was also the case for the old damage testcase and yet flash did not scale linear with str in the tests done. So there seems to-be no real data on this actually?

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It listed the potency, potency is based on your attack power and strength, as indicated at the top of the informative post by the brief "damage=enmity".

more info from the very first link I googled: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ty_potency_of/

I don't understand why you're making this such a point of contention, but if this information doesn't satisfy you I encourage you to do your own testing and post the ressults.

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Originally Posted by Andy22

... So there seems to-be no real data on this actually?

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Real data is available to you in game. Get one of your chums into a party(Preferably a BRD/MCH with WM/GB respectively or a BLM) and have them cast one GCD weapon skill on a striking dummy and disregard critical hits and reset the dummy if they occur. Remove all equipped accessories or equip full fending accessories, and use Flash on the dummy once. Note the difference in enmity generated underneath your job icons in the party list. Reset dummy and redo the test once more but have full slaying accessories equipped. Note the difference in enmity generated again.

Assuming that there is still a notable difference, we can safely assume that Flash does a hidden potency that does infact scale with STR.

... And I guess in regard to topic: As any DPS will tell you...

ENOUGH IS NEVER ENOUGH.

Aggro generation is not a problem even for VIT tanks. It's mostly that it also could mean inoptimal damage output for PLD/DRK due to having to rotate more RoH/PowaSlash.

I mean... If a tank is having problems with aggro at this point in the game... Making him relatively harder to heal isn't going to make things any more smoother either. ONE PROBLEM AFTER ANOTHER! MRRRRRGRGHRGHRHgl;tjkufy;c tkdj

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

It listed the potency, potency is based on your attack power and strength, as indicated at the top of the informative post by the brief "damage=enmity".

more info from the very first link I googled: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ty_potency_of/

I don't understand why you're making this such a point of contention, but if this information doesn't satisfy you I encourage you to do your own testing and post the ressults.

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I simply wanted to understand if the assumption posted was in fact based on real testing or just a extrapolation of common knowledge, so i can assess if i rather test this myself or not. So as it turns out the old test seems tobe the only one done for this case, which contradicts the common str/dmg linear scaling. So yes if i really want to know how flash scales with str i need to test this myself it seems.

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Originally Posted by Andy22

I simply wanted to understand if the assumption posted was in fact based on real testing or just a extrapolation of common knowledge, so i can assess if i rather test this myself or not. So as it turns out the old test seems tobe the only one done for this case, which contradicts the common str/dmg linear scaling. So yes if i really want to know how flash scales with str i need to test this myself it seems.

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Good luck with the tests, let us know how it goes! I might try to get around the checking it out on my own some time. The easiest way would be to grab a pld buddy with identical gear, have one person gear str and the other vit and have a flash-off. make sure substats are the same though, even though it seems like crit doesn't affect it.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Good luck with the tests, let us know how it goes! I might try to get around the checking it out on my own some time. The easiest way would be to grab a pld buddy with identical gear, have one person gear str and the other vit and have a flash-off. make sure substats are the same though, even though it seems like crit doesn't affect it.

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Then in this case the PLD who wears Piety accessories would win because he would have more mana.

lol what a stupid comparison. A flash off.... Just wow.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

I also have NO problem holding aggro with full VIT. I hold aggro just fine while maximizing my HP. Making it easier on the healer while the DPS nukes down the enemies all the while I still output decent numbers. Sure I'm not going to out DPS a WAR, but that goes without saying. (PLD)

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From a healer perspective, I'll confirm VIT tank's don't really have aggro problems.

However, outside of tank-busters and similar mechanics, VIT doesn't really make it easier on healers imo. We need to provide similar levels of ehp/s regardless of STR or VIT.

Personally for most content, all I really care about is if the tank can hold aggro. If they do and aren't a jerk, they get a commendation from me. If I had to pick though, I'd take the STR tank.

Flash isn't effected by STR winsock, but I do agree WARS do far better with STR. Same with DRK. But we as Paladins don't benifit from HP recovery with aoe attacks based on STR cleaves. We do better having more HP in our pool. Having more STR to block more damage is nice, but it's not as consistent as having more HP overall (on PLD.)
Thr only argument for STR is slightly higher DPS on one single target and more percentage blocked. That's it. When it comes to trash pulls, VIT > STR (on Paladin.)

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Then in this case the PLD who wears Piety accessories would win because he would have more mana.

lol what a stupid comparison. A flash off.... Just wow.

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The point of what you quoted either completely went over your head, or you're deliberately making a strawman argument to avoid facing the facts. I'm not sure which is more pathetic.

Flash is absolutely affected by str, yet you wish to stick your head in the sand as regards to an easy method anyone can use to prove it. Block (and parry) damage reduction hasn't been affected by str since HW came out. Might want to actually know what you're talking about before acting like you do and making a fool of yourself.

The problem with this whole Str/Vit debacle is that there's no specific right answer simply because both stats are helpful and both do different things.

Yes, in most cases Strength will be the right choice. But you're giving something up. You're giving up a pool of Effective Health. In most cases it wont make a run easier and certainly wont make it faster unless it's the difference between a healer getting enough time to fire off some aoes on big packs. But still... you're giving stuff up.

And that just feels sucky for a tank. DPS and Healers don't have to give anything up, they just constantly increase their entire effectiveness by wearing one set of gear. It's awesome to increase our strength, and do as much damage as possible. But it's also nice to get tankier and tankier as you go through content, and because most tanks start off with a mix of str/vit as they delve into content they're undergeared for or unfamiliar with, it means that as they gear up they swap out vit for strength and never really feel the full effect of being tankier.

I'm certainly not advocating full vit. I'm very much in the Strength camp myself. I just wish people would stop making sweeping statements about a one-size-fits-all mentality for tank gearing, and also understand that even the tanks that stack strength will have that annoying feeling in the back of their mind that they're giving up stats that do in some way help the role that they're brought along for.

This fight is absurd based on the premise of ??????? WHAT???????? Guess what else is based on strength (Attack Power) : Equilibrium (HEAL) CLEMENCY (HEAL)

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Flash isn't effected by STR
Thr only argument for STR is slightly higher DPS on one single target and more percentage blocked. That's it. When it comes to trash pulls, VIT > STR (on Paladin.)

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Yes, it is.

http://i.imgur.com/yMsxrjo.png

More STR means more damage when you rotate Goring Blade on multiple targets, which is what you should be doing on aoe pulls. It's definitely not bad.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

I value your opinion as a person.

Have a great day

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this pretty much covers my opinion except
what are you smoking/
can i have some?

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Originally Posted by braneri1

The point of what you quoted either completely went over your head, or you're deliberately making a strawman argument to avoid facing the facts. I'm not sure which is more pathetic.

Flash is absolutely affected by str, yet you wish to stick your head in the sand as regards to an easy method anyone can use to prove it. Block (and parry) damage reduction hasn't been affected by str since HW came out. Might want to actually know what you're talking about before acting like you do and making a fool of yourself.

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Lol good one. To bad it doesn't and your making a fool of yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Lol good one. To bad it doesn't and your making a fool of yourself.

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Woahh repeat what someone said to them, ya it's affected by attack power which is strength. So are self cures. That is why Berserk increases Equilibrium by 50%. The percentage of damage parried use to be effected by strength but they changed it because they didn't want anyone having like,45% parries. Pop a strength potion and cast clemency and do it without one. As warrior I dont have to I have berserk.

Tough guy over here. Look out.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Nah I'll accept that. ;x

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Yeah I know ^^ Just like how some VIT tanks agree that there's a point to stacking STR but that they prefer not to do that, for whatever reason they have. It was mostly just an equally adamant response to the post above mine ^_~

(Plus... It doesn't really matter what the 'truth' is regarding STR vs VIT. Because outside of top raids, which isn't done with a PUG anyway, it really is all a matter of what the individual people want. If a DRK wants to stack STR (or VIT) accessories with PIE melded on them for longer Darkside, that's up to them to do. Of course, it's equally up to the people meeting said tank in DF to accept that or not; if they don't, they're free to leave the dungeon =) Or vote-kick, if their opinion should happen to be in the majority. Trying to force other people, strangers, to play the game your way is in my opinion unacceptably rude.
Note: "your" isn't referring to you of course, Seku ^^)

I think VIT has it's place, even if it's not the most effective stat.

When I was leveling my tank jobs I went full vit, it's a good cushion and gives you more room for error per say.

Once I had hit lvl50 and had gotten comfortable with content and my job I started mixing and matching str and vit.

After that I went full on str, but keept vit around in case it's needed for some reason or another.

As for heavensward content I usually rotate str and vit well leveling than go back to full str once capped, though I do have 1 vit ring and allocated my 35 points into str, mostly because the vit ring had better secondary stats than the str, plz SE I don't need all this acc ...

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Lol good one. To bad it doesn't and your making a fool of yourself.

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Flash threat is 100% determined by your Weapon Damage + Strength. It just has its -damage- value set to zero but counts as if you were doing a 600 potency attack, and potency calculates off your Weapon/Strength. Vit tanks do less threat with a flash than Strength tanks, and has been shown and proven many many times.

However, yes, you can argue that stacking strength for Flash threat is pointless if you can hold threat with a vit spec on huge pulls. In these cases, the Strength stacking

Paladins are probably the tank that -least- benefit from a strength spec on large pulls. It helps Circle of Scorn and Goring Blade Spam of course, so it certainly is useful - it helps a bit but either spec works. Warriors and DRKs are very much suited to strength spec on big pulls though as their AOE threat moves do so much damage/self healing.

It's all down to how much Vit you have in your left side gear. If you're in 190+ gear on left side then you really wont need the vitality at all for huge pulls in 4mans. If you're lower or unsure of the healer (as a Paladin at least) then vit accs on big pulls wont hurt as you're not really losing the group that much potential dps.

If aggro is not a problem, it's not worth the STR on Paladin. A little more enmity is not better then more HP on PLDS. Thus only a slight increase in damage and total block percentage is all PLDS are going to get from STR. Thus it's better to see a PLD in full VIT gear.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

If aggro is not a problem, it's not worth the STR on Paladin. A little more enmity is not better then more HP on PLDS. Thus only a slight increase in damage and total block percentage is all PLDS are going to get from STR. Thus it's better to see a PLD in full VIT gear.

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Block percentage is only determined by the block ratings on your shields. Strength no longer affects Block or Parry strength. The DPS difference between a VIT PLD and a STR PLD is a lot more considering also that the increased aggro strength means more uptime on Sword Oath and Royal Authority on top of the 25/26/27% or so DPS gain from the stats alone.

Which is better is currently being debated on for one reason or another. Everyone has to contribute to the Primary goal of the fight and that is Kill X enemy.

But a general rule of thumb for which is more of a total DPS gain is:

For short trash packs with breaks (Dungeon Trash): Healer DPS (Which is what full Vit accommodates) > Tank DPS
For boss fights and pretty much anything else (A2S included surprisingly): Tank DPS > Healer DPS

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

If aggro is not a problem, it's not worth the STR on Paladin. A little more enmity is not better then more HP on PLDS. Thus only a slight increase in damage and total block percentage is all PLDS are going to get from STR. Thus it's better to see a PLD in full VIT gear.

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In a world where every single digit of dps you can bring matters (i.e., savage), STR on any tank is worth it. At least as many as your healers can handle while still dpsing.

On a regular trash gameplay (dungeons and such while overgeared), you could go full mind for better cures and still do it.

Perspective from a static-less healer that is at the mercy of PUG DF tanks for daily roulettes/weekly Alex:

- I can heal and DPS with STR or VIT tanks.
- A good DPS will hold back if they feel the tank is not generating enough enmity.
- Tank vs DPS stance matters more than gear stats.
- Defense CD usage makes the biggest difference in healing needs.
- Skill rotation makes the biggest difference in enmity management.

A friend of mine asked another to parse him. Despite friend A having slightly better gear, friend B consistently showed ~100 DPS more, both on dummies and in DF. Friend A had a poor warrior rotation.

HM roulette last night, loaded in to WP NM with a tank that had 120 gear but an i49 weapon. My friend cringed and told me to watch out, but then we were both shocked that he never once lost aggro, either to my heals or the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

In a world where every single digit of dps you can bring matters (i.e., savage), STR on any tank is worth it. At least as many as your healers can handle while still dpsing.

On a regular trash gameplay (dungeons and such while overgeared), you could go full mind for better cures and still do it.

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Have your tanks roll need on STR accessories then. Lol

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Block percentage is only determined by the block ratings on your shields.

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Also block % in damage, not rate Wings.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Have your tanks roll need on STR accessories then. Lol

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You don't need to roll for Law or Alex NM accessories. Alex Savage will be done with a static and everyone will agree that tanks get STR drops after the melee DPS, plus they can be bought with books. Crafted accessories are also bought with gil, not rolled on.

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Originally Posted by Launched

You don't need to roll for Law or Alex NM accessories. Alex Savage will be done with a static and everyone will agree that tanks get STR drops after the melee DPS, plus they can be bought with books. Crafted accessories are also bought with gil, not rolled on.

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I was implying that the system is not yet set for tanks to roll need on drops, regardless if the static permits a greed roll on it. Maybe the devs in the future will make tank accessories with STR to silence these petty arguments and pointless threads.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

But we as Paladins don't benifit from HP recovery with aoe attacks based on STR cleaves.

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^ completely agree with this. STR is more valuable for a WAR than a PLD.

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We do better having more HP in our pool. Having more STR to block more damage is nice, but it's not as consistent as having more HP overall (on PLD.)

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This is where i think we, along with other players participating in these discussions, will disagree with each other.

The healer needs to dedicate a similar amount of time and potency to healing you, regardless of whether you take STR or VIT (minor exceptions here and there of course, like benediction)

VIT makes a difference if:
1) your HP ends up dropping low enough to use the extra HP, and
2) if in that situation, dieing would have cost more time than taking STR would have saved.

STR is beneficial in an encounter, unless dieing causes delays greater than the time savings.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Also block % in damage, not rate Wings.

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How many times do you need to be told before you'll understand? STR no longer changes anything when it comes to block or parry. They completely removed the benefit that STR gave to both block and parry mitigation when they released Heavensward.

Also, there's no reason why a PLD shouldn't swap to full (or at the very least, some) STR gear for bosses. Even a crappy healer should be able to keep up a Sword Oath PLD using STR stuff if the PLD is rotating CDs properly so why gimp your contribution to the group?

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

How many times do you need to be told before you'll understand? STR no longer changes anything when it comes to block or parry. They completely removed the benefit that STR gave to both block and parry mitigation when they released Heavensward.

Also, there's no reason why a PLD shouldn't swap to full (or at the very least, some) STR gear for bosses. Even a crappy healer should be able to keep up a Sword Oath PLD using STR stuff if the PLD is rotating CDs properly so why gimp your contribution to the group?

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I honestly don't understand why people continue trying to have a rational discussion with that poster. They've made it clear they have no interest in such things.