"Base/Simple" stigma of Paladin and how we must deal with it/prepare for the future.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

Let's play a game where you answer a series of yes or no questions and see what conclusions we can draw from this.

5: While some of the best guilds in the world use STR tanks for progression, do you really think that even a fraction of those who mimic them are close to their level of skill?

Answer key is:

5: No. (I am damn good at what I do. I am however human, and prone to the occasional albeit rare mistake. All STR tanks I have seen have been laughable pathetic mouthbreathing idiots at best. You should #gitabetterPRdepartment)

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Because people who try and fail, try without understanding, or are just idiots in general are representative of all or even the majority.

Too much groupthink, parroting, and "I've never had a good experience".

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Playing a roulette of which tank gets completely excluded from the current content is a really shitty meta. Warriors were shit in 2.0, they complained, they got buffed to be a viable choice. Being a viable choice is all we want. I myself already have a raid static, but I feel as if I'll be holding them back in A3S so it's still a concern.

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People need to stop pretending as if PLD isn't viable or anywhere near comparable to 2.0 WAR. The only encounter in the game where PLD's viability is questionable is A4S, and that has more to do with encounter design rather than class design.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

5: No. (I am damn good at what I do. I am however human, and prone to the occasional albeit rare mistake. All STR tanks I have seen have been laughable pathetic mouthbreathing idiots at best. You should #gitabetterPRdepartment)

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I've seen good strength tanks. I've seen awful strength tanks. I've seen good vitality tanks. I've seen awful vitality tanks. I've even seen tanks in Intelligence, Mind, or Dexterity gear but that's a whole other can of worms right there. Me, I run in melded gear when there's decent stuff available. Otherwise, it's STR all day because I like to be able to kill things rather than feel like I'm beating them with a wet noodle. When I'm healing, I'd rather have the awful tank in VIT gear because awful tanks don't typically use their CD's correctly. On the other hand, I'd rather have the good tank be in STR gear because they put out more damage, they pull more aggro, and I have no problem keeping them alive. To a good tank, extra hp is wasted stats just like extra accuracy over the cap is.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I've seen good strength tanks. I've seen awful strength tanks. I've seen good vitality tanks. I've seen awful vitality tanks. I've even seen tanks in Intelligence, Mind, or Dexterity gear but that's a whole other can of worms right there. Me, I run in melded gear when there's decent stuff available. Otherwise, it's STR all day because I like to be able to kill things rather than feel like I'm beating them with a wet noodle. When I'm healing, I'd rather have the awful tank in VIT gear because awful tanks don't typically use their CD's correctly. On the other hand, I'd rather have the good tank be in STR gear because they put out more damage, they pull more aggro, and I have no problem keeping them alive. To a good tank, extra hp is wasted stats just like extra accuracy over the cap is.

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I believe that good str tanks exist. I just believe that they are fewer and farther between than the bad ones. I have met a few STR tanks who were decent. I won't say you're allowed to be considered a good STR tank unless you can manage doing it with at least one bad healer in a full party, and a sub par one in a light party. Obviously, I am only talking about DF/PF here, statics are like vegas. What you do there is your business.

I keep seeing people say "Strength tanks pull more aggro" Is this even a problem for most vit tanks? Really? Cuz I don't see it. Then again, long ago I taught my SMN/BLM what happens when I catch them not using quelling. Low level tank paddles still have uses... And considering our Dragoon does 1200 regularly, and our BLM is one of the best I have ever seen, I can't really believe I hold aggro (and have always done so) because they just don't output good damage. If I remember right our dragoons opener spikes well above 2.2k and I have no problems in the initial pull, and he only ever uses Elusive for fun. Since I don't parse (I leave that to the dps) I am going on memory, but like I said before, I just can't see the reason I hold aggro is they have light damage.

The only real aggro problems I have are when warriors spam BB as off tanks, and won't even keep up their storms eye. This leaves me with far less wiggle room to add my goring blades and royal authority peppered in, and forces me to throw more halones than normal. That said, any warrior who doesn't keep up Storm's Eye is bad and should feel bad.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

I believe that good str tanks exist. I just believe that they are fewer and farther between than the bad ones. I have met a few STR tanks who were decent. I won't say you're allowed to be considered a good STR tank unless you can manage doing it with at least one bad healer in a full party, and a sub par one in a light party.

I keep seeing people say "Strength tanks pull more aggro" Is this even a problem for most vit tanks? Really? Cuz I don't see it. Then again, long ago I taught my SMN/BLM what happens when I catch them not using quelling. Low level tank paddles still have uses...

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Pulling more aggro really only shines if you're trying to tank in your DPS stance.

It's pretty much a moot point in tank stance unless you're undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

The only real aggro problems I have are when warriors spam BB as off tanks, and won't even keep up their storms eye. This leaves me with far less wiggle room to add my goring blades and royal authority peppered in, and forces me to throw more halones than normal. That said, any warrior who doesn't keep up Storm's Eye is bad and should feel bad.

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Yeah, this is a problem too. The fact that BB is higher potency and generates more aggro makes it a PITA.

If you can't hold aggro off of your DPS, that is entirely your fault.
Even if it's a SMN/BLM, if you aren't holding aggro off of them NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE DOING you are failing to complete the most basic part of your job.
Hell, you should be glad that they can push enough DPS to out-hate you.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

I keep seeing people say "Strength tanks pull more aggro" Is this even a problem for most vit tanks?

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It's not a "problem", per se, but a benefit to the STR tank in the sense that it allows you to DPS due to needing fewer enmity combos/less time in your tanking stance.

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Originally Posted by Misha_Tameshigiri

If you can't hold aggro off of your DPS, that is entirely your fault.
Even if it's a SMN/BLM, if you aren't holding aggro off of them NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE DOING you are failing to complete the most basic part of your job.
Hell, you should be glad that they can push enough DPS to out-hate you.

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Huh? You do realize what you just said was this "If your dps doesn't use their off global cooldown ability that costs them nothing in order to do their job, you're not doing your job!" right? You should read what you wrote, and understand it. Because to someone with a brain, it is HILARIOUS! I don't really know if they could pull initial aggro from me without their quelling strikes. The reason I don't know this, is because they know better. However, with your stupid, stupid response, you have literally advocated someone not using all the abilities of their class for...absolutely no reason aside from whatever twisted machinations the monkeys banging on typewriters in your brain saw fit to publish.

Side note, it's funny how since a friend told me to start noticing the join dates of some of the people I find to be quite stupid on these forums, just how much of a trend you start to notice...

Nice job reading around my post, bro.
My point is that it's incredibly hard for you to lose aggro to similarly geared DPS.
If you are losing aggro to your DPS, you are either fucking up or they are putting out numbers high enough to be in world first clears.

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Originally Posted by Misha_Tameshigiri

Nice job reading around my post, bro.
My point is that it's incredibly hard for you to lose aggro to similarly geared DPS.
If you are losing aggro to your DPS, you are either fucking up or they are putting out numbers high enough to be in world first clears.

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My mistake then if I read around your post, it seemed to me like you were pretty clear about the fact that enmity reduction abilities were meant to never ever be used. Have you ever seen a Black Mage proc 5 thunders in the first 20 seconds of a fight? I have.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

My mistake then if I read around your post, it seemed to me like you were pretty clear about the fact that enmity reduction abilities were meant to never ever be used. Have you ever seen a Black Mage proc 5 thunders in the first 20 seconds of a fight? I have.

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Usually it's accompanied by a gleeful giggle in Mumble and "Look, I'm Ramuh!" from my static's BLM.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

My mistake then if I read around your post, it seemed to me like you were pretty clear about the fact that enmity reduction abilities were meant to never ever be used. Have you ever seen a Black Mage proc 5 thunders in the first 20 seconds of a fight? I have.

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Hyperbole is a hell of a thing. I too like latching onto one word to prove my words have weight.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Usually it's accompanied by a gleeful giggle in Mumble and "Look, I'm Ramuh!" from my static's BLM.

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Wow... that... is just so damn accurate... Well played.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Hyperbole is a hell of a thing. I too like latching onto one word to prove my words have weight.

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Sorry, due to lack of sleep I'm gonna need you to be a bit less subtle with whatever point underlining never ever was supposed to convey.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

Sorry, due to lack of sleep I'm gonna need you to be a bit less subtle with whatever point underlining never ever was supposed to convey.

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I thought you would be comfortable with the concept of putting words in someone else's mouth.

Guy never said "never use Quelling". You seem to have heard it that way anyways though.

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Originally Posted by Misha_Tameshigiri

If you can't hold aggro off of your DPS, that is entirely your fault.
Even if it's a SMN/BLM, if you aren't holding aggro off of them NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE DOING you are failing to complete the most basic part of your job.
Hell, you should be glad that they can push enough DPS to out-hate you.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I thought you would be comfortable with the concept of putting words in someone else's mouth.

Guy never said "never use Quelling". You seem to have heard it that way anyways though.

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Oh, I'm sorry, you see I saw the "NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE DOING" thing he said, you see there? in all caps? For what I can only assume was emphasis? And well, to me, when coupled with the part about not holding aggro... well, I thought it would be reasonable to put 2 and 2 together... I mean, since the equation was there, I finished it. Was... was that rude? Sorry, I sort of lose my manners sometimes haha. Please forgive my obviously mistaken conclusions I drew. Boy is my face red.

I just assumed since his post came right after the one where we talked about enmity reduction abilities.... and he specifically mentioned BLM/SMN whose enmity reduction ability is quelling... Golly gee willikers this is some long and drawn out sarcasm isn't it?

Here's how it looks to me.

That guy was like "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"
And then I yell out "It's a Duck!"
And then you chime in with "Hey he never said that!!! Don't put words in his mouth!"

Seravie pls. (that's a dolan joke, since I used ducks in that really weird analogy.)

I'm gonna edit this again to give you a words of the day. Your words of the day is: Context Clues

Another edit to let you know I am probably sorry for being such an asshole, it's just so hilarious and fun when I haven't slept in 30 hours, and if I remember it tomorrow I will probably feel bad about it briefly and then drown my sorrows in some type of delicious muffin or other breakfast-like treat to compensate.

Obviously you should encourage DPS players you know personally to use quelling strikes during burst phases/openers.
I apologize for being misleading.
Carry on, good sir.

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Originally Posted by Misha_Tameshigiri

Obviously you should encourage DPS players you know personally to use quelling strikes during burst phases/openers.
I apologize for being misleading.
Carry on, good sir.

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And I'm sorry for being such an inconsiderate dick! I should sleep! I'm gonna go sleep!

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem is not PLD's design, but the fact the devs allowed the tank meta to focus on DPS. That in itself is the result of not designing tanks to keep them tanking in their tank stance (since a good part of the DPS issue wouldn't exist if they had; all it would mean is that raids would have had to spend an extra week or two or esoterics to gear their DPS appropriately to meet the checks in Alexander).

The desire for "simple" comes from the fact half the people on these forums want PLD turned into a WAR or DRK facsimile for the sake of increasing its DPS.

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No, it is not only the meta, the "systems" surrounding tanking mechanics and raid design. It is ALSO the FACT that PLD has some unaddressed design oversights in their kit.

This is the same as saying "oh, DRK design is fine because the tanking meta makes them good." No, DRK also has some glaring design issues. It's just that their issues aren't large enough to really impact their place within the meta.

People continue to post in complete ignorance. Look at the facts.

Rage of Halone's potency and enmity are what they are because PLDs only had Rage of Halone in 2.X. If they didn't lower the enmity, you would have some serious enmity juggling issues in multiple tank situations. Anyone that played PLD in 2.X at any reasonable level knows about this problem. But, that was 2.X. With the release of 3.X and the introduction of 2 new PLD combos, there is no reason to not adjust RoH outside of concerns about PLD performance in leveling / synced content.

The same goes for Shield Swipe. It is still balanced based on 2.X. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 2.X, Shield Swipe was a very slight DPS gain at a lower TP cost. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 3.X, Shield Swipe is a DPS loss. They didn't adjust Shield Swipe's potency for 3.X appropriately.

A lot of the other issues are carry overs from 2.X that have always been problems. PLDs just kind of took them in stride because they were still fine for raid content. Now, the problems have mounted to this tipping point. So, it's not only an issue of the meta. It's not good that so many PLD abilities are under performing or unusable based on clear design/balance failures.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

+1

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Good post showing some flaws on the PLD job, one thing i want to see is oGCD stances that doesnt brake comboes to make gameplay more fluid. Add 5-10s CD on it and slightly increase mana cost so that should keep it in balance.

Shield Swipe has so much potential to be a good skill, either make it oGCD skill or keep it on GCD but remove TP cost so it becomes our proper "TP restore skill" ooooor make it cone AoE similiar to OP so PLD's gets some AoE dmg boost.

DV is clunky due heal proc(does any other job has a skill that depends on another player to actually make your skill work? aetherial manipulation is propably onlyone i can think of besides DV)and it has rather long CD for being a sacred soil v2, Clemency needs its cast-time reduced heavily or make it instat cast with short/medium CD(30-60s)and keep its current mana cost if needed.

Also i agree with DRK, it needs some love too.

I just wanted to sign back in and let you guys know that I see people (for the most part) having sensible, level-headed and respectful discussions on multiple issues that can be seen. I also see how, again, most of you are forgiving and understanding when it concerns these arguments and the effects real life might be having on you at the time of making your posts.

This truly means so much to me. I registered my account with the thought of being mocked and outright scorned for saying things (about anything really,) hanging in the back of my head. I see all these horror story posts about people being malicious and uncaring and it worried me. I'm not moved to the point of tears, but it does make my heart hurt in the best way possible to see maturity and calmness getting more and more prevalent.

Thank you so very much.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

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Tank forums has usually pretty good discussions going on and they are usually "flame free" compared to general section, tbh all 3 tank jobs need to stick together as there are not many of us(insta ques and perma-adventure in need bonus shows this). Like i have said before WAR's dont need buffs/nerfs imo as they are pretty perfect atm but PLD and DRK needs some love(if next tier is physical heavy DRK's might end in same spot where PLD's are atm, so better give them some love now rather than later), when this happens i hope all 3 are balanced or atleast close to it.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Rage of Halone's potency and enmity are what they are because PLDs only had Rage of Halone in 2.X. If they didn't lower the enmity, you would have some serious enmity juggling issues in multiple tank situations. Anyone that played PLD in 2.X at any reasonable level knows about this problem. But, that was 2.X. With the release of 3.X and the introduction of 2 new PLD combos, there is no reason to not adjust RoH outside of concerns about PLD performance in leveling / synced content.

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I've ignored this issue because it would need a change at the core (namely ability spread) or the devs to break one of their rules of design (inserting traits post lv50, since this way the abilities change for HW content while leaving the 1-50 game as it was). Two things that I don't see happening anytime soon.

Ideally, the skills shouldn't have enmity built-in to begin with, and the enmity bonuses should be tied to the tank stances; of course, this necessitates introducing the stances MUCH earlier so that low level tanking would remain untouched. Going in that direction would have avoided the "problems" we saw in high level content during ARR (I'm actually quite familiar with aggro juggling between myself and the other tank, but I dealt with that by taking a GCD to use Stoneskin on the tank or simply waiting 1-2 seconds for that tank to use the next step of their enmity combo before continuing my Halone combo).

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The same goes for Shield Swipe. It is still balanced based on 2.X. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 2.X, Shield Swipe was a very slight DPS gain at a lower TP cost. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 3.X, Shield Swipe is a DPS loss. They didn't adjust Shield Swipe's potency for 3.X appropriately.

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I can agree on this. I guess with the increase in stats from gear, Shield Swipe's scaling could get adjusted to remain as it was during ARR and become better for HW content.

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A lot of the other issues are carry overs from 2.X that have always been problems. PLDs just kind of took them in stride because they were still fine for raid content. Now, the problems have mounted to this tipping point. So, it's not only an issue of the meta. It's not good that so many PLD abilities are under performing or unusable based on clear design/balance failures.

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It's one thing to talk about legit issues, but the crux of the tank comparison has been that PLD doesn't do the DPS a WAR or a DRK can. That's why I said the tank meta is the problem. When the meta focuses on big DPS being expected of an archetype that doesn't exist for the sake of dealing big damage, there's a serious problem.

To me the paladin has always been a supporty type of tank, and aesthetically (if not mechanically) the sword/shield combo does -feel- as though it should be a lower damage option than the warriors with their huge axes.

If the DPS-is-everything meta is going to stay, maybe Paladins should be buffed more to increase -party- dps in some way. Keep their personal DPS where it is but give them something along the lines of Battle Litany as an effect on something, so they can contribute to total party DPS in that sense. Have to be careful that such a buff doesnt push them into must-have territory, but as a concept I think I prefer the idea of paladins doing mediocre personal dps but improving party dps in some way.

Of course right now, Warriors have both the highest personal damage AND are the only tank that brings the damage increasing Slashing debuff. Running PLD/DRK is basically terrible without a ninja. Though I guess running BRD or MCH without a dragoon is pretty meh too. I don't really like classes having to rely on one specific other class's debuff to do max dps.

You realize changing the focus on damage would change the whole meta? it would require dps to be buffed to compensate and reducing damage would have to be a hell of a lot more complex to give the tanks more to do than stand there and do enmity combos. Many former PLDs switched to DRK or even WAR before this whole anti PLD stuff came around and it was because the class is boring by comparison, half of it's tool kit is so situational you'll never use it, let alone actually useful or needed.

Paladin is in a really awkward place right now. They are not the most tanky tank, because it's mostly magical damage, and they've never been the most DPS heavy tank. This leads to a situation where DRK/WAR is now the best combo for Savage. Will the next wing possibly have a lot more physical damage, putting the spotlight on PLD again? Maybe, but at that point, it will already be too late for the PLD community. Even as a WAR main, I don't care if PLD was the superior tank in 2.0 content or not. That's no reason to screw them now. PLD needs something to actually compete with the other tanks. The DPS abilities were a good start, but they were nowhere near as powerful as they should have been. Increase their potencies across the board. There should be no reason for a DRK to get a 400 potency hit, a WAR to get a 500 potency hit, and a PLD to get a pathetic 340 potency hit. There is no authority in Royal Authority. And do something about those utility spells, would you? Divine Veil especially. Too long for the CD, and requiring a heal to activate it is pretty stupid. And Clemency? Come on. There is no reason for such a long cast time on that. Give it 1-1.5 seconds at best. It's not like we can spam it with that massive MP cost anyway. And don't even get me started on Sheltron. 30 seconds for a spell that pretty much ends up blocking an autoattack, can't even pretend to be useful. Extend the CD to 45 seconds, and make it block all attacks for the next 4 seconds. That way, we stop burning it right before the tank buster we popped it for in the first place.

there's no need to create an additional thread to suggest more unrealistic ability changes and job nerfs- there are other threads you can post that in without drawing unwanted attention by the devs. They're pretty good at ignoring ridiculous requests at least which is, I assume, why it's taking so long to hear about any possible PLD changes. For now all we can do is hope they tweak the job as they did ast to make it even somewhat viable in current tanking meta. Our enmity and potencies being so significantly lower in addition to lack of aoe dps just doesn't warrant bringing a PLD over a war+DRK combo in ANY of the games current content. It can be argued that PLD tanks as2 better but at this point healers can keep a war and DRK up np and raid wide dps is much higher/faster that it's simply hindering your raid group while gaining a long casting cure that results in an overall dps loss for your group. Unfortunate, but that's the way it is currently.

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

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Originally Posted by Horobi

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

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In theory. In practice, however, PLD gain maybe 8-10% more mitigation (if the mobs do physical damage only) and are unable to help burst the packs of mobs down as easily as a war or drk. IF the healer manages to do more dps than the war/drk vs. pld difference (significant in the hands of a skilled player) then it would be worthwhile. So if the tank is horrible, yes, PLD will allow the healer to dps more. Any tank utilizing his full skill set however makes the difference quite negligible at best.

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Originally Posted by Horobi

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

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Most of the time that would be the case for all the tanks allowing you to dps (if they're min/maxed properly.) The issue here is that the outgoing damage required in Savage content is astronomical and as it stands you'll be forced to dps, anyway, at the risk of your tanks dying. In some cases their health drops to 1k. In fact, if you bring a Paladin into A3s and A4s right now, you'll be required to let them almost die as you dps, making up for their damage deficiency.

Okay, I see. Now I'm sad xD thanks for your answers :)

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Tank forums has usually pretty good discussions going on and they are usually "flame free" compared to general section,

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If "good discussion" equates to "having the same 2-3 discussions in 100 topics for 2 years", then yeah there is plenty of good discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

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something something something tiger blood


at least that's what I got out of it

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

If the DPS-is-everything meta is going to stay, maybe Paladins should be buffed more to increase -party- dps in some way.

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Aye this is another solution i would be totally fine, instead giving DMG buffs to PLD let them give that missing bit to Healers/DD's. Tho i would still like to see some fine tuning to get rid of some clunkyness and adjustments to some of their skills to be more usable/userfriendly.

Bump- still no word from SE after this weeks maintenance. What could be a simple fix to our enmity modifiers is apparently turning into a month long lack of usage of PLD's in savage. Super unfortunate. Time to push war 59-60 and accept the new way of life.

" 1: Can you roll need on STR accessories as a Tank? "

No you can't, and that's a design flaw from the developpers since having 2 VIT & 3 STR accessory is the best combination.

" 2: Did you develop the game? "

No. Doesn't mean that people find out about things the developpers didn't think about. It means the brokeness of Ninja at it's release because players found things to do that the developpers didn't even thought about. Same goes for AST who was absolutely underbalanced. But yeah, everything the developpers made must be gold.

" 4: When tanking, have you ever survived dropping below 800 hp during an encounter that was successfully recovered? "

Yes, because my healer and me do their job, I use some CDs, and they protect me. Because we know when in a situation i'm going to die. If I die, then either the healer or me did something wrong, that's all. Even if it's difficult (as a WAR, Holmgang + Thrill of Battle + Second Wind if you have it, and surprise, your alive and above 2000 HP). Of course I can fail, but it isn't impossible, even in full STR

" 5: While some of the best guilds in the world use STR tanks for progression, do you really think that even a fraction of those who mimic them are close to their level of skill? "

Hell no, but that's the point you're missing. STR gear is the most optimal accessory for Tanks. That is a fact. You deal more aggro, more damage, and being in full STR doesn't make any attack in the game OS you when you use your CDs well. That's why you should be in full STR as your base equipement, and have VIT gear just in case. If you run a casual content like Expert Roulette and you have a healer that don't really mastered their job and aren't very well equiped and confident, then yeah, make it a little easier for him and equip 2 VIT accessory, it's largely enough for what it is, and you won't lose so much aggro generation and DPS. And even in full STR you don't have to go in DPS stance to be efficient enough.
BUT, if you trust your healers and your aggro generation ability, then yeah, go on and stance dance, they know they can keep you alive without much trouble, because healer's toolkit allow it, and it ISN'T difficult. It ISN'T being "respectful" to healers when you try to hold their hands like babies, being respectful is putting trust in them. But yeah, some can't do it because you can't master your job directly when you hit 60. In this case, put on 2 VIT accessory, and everything will be fine. Otherwise, go STR because that's where you'll be more efficient.


And i'd like to say that "All STR tanks I have seen have been laughable pathetic mouthbreathing idiots at best. You should #gitabetterPRdepartment "isn't any kind of an argument. Replace STR by VIT and LOOK, it's the same things and it don't even make sense.

Of COURSE a full VIT Tank can perform very well, even in Savage the day the DPS have enough gear it can be viable. But it is NOT what's the more optimal. And actually when doing end-game, you have to be optimal, that's progression.

Oh and " 5 : There is a very high chance you are not nearly as good as you think you are. Like, "I can see my house from here!" kinda high. ". You do realize it applies more to you than anybody else on this topic since your the only one boasting about "YEAH I'M BETTER THAN 99% of the player base" ? That's called being a dick.

One last thing : your first argument was "people using STR gear are just mindless idiot following the mass, like they do with Justin Bieber LOL". Now, realize that the vast MAJORITY of players are using ful VIT gear. Yeah bro, you're part of the mass, but I suppose it isn't bad this time.
If you see more people using STR on this forums, it's because here people care about how to play their job optimally, which you don't since you think you're part of the best tanks on this game and just deny everything proven to you out of sheer selfishness and pride.


Now, if you want, we can discuss Tanking like grown ups instead of using dramasentence, treating people like shit when they don't agree, and have other arguments than "LOL I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG LELELELELE".

Good Day Sir.

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Originally Posted by Kemas

Bump- still no word from SE after this weeks maintenance. What could be a simple fix to our enmity modifiers is apparently turning into a month long lack of usage of PLD's in savage. Super unfortunate. Time to push war 59-60 and accept the new way of life.

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Wait for 3.1 I think :(

Yeah they want war/DRK to be the only savage tanks apparently and us PLD can run it once they add echo so it doesn't hurt our raid group too much loll

Na, you won't see Echo or savage in the Duty Finder before at least 3.2 :)

Sek, I was gonna respond to your... answers, but then I started reading them and my brain cells started jumping off cliffs. There is just way too much bad and wrong in your post for me to address, when it's just going to fall on the deaf ears of someone without the capacity to comprehend anything that doesn't come with a gitgud hashtag. Enjoy your ignorance, I hear it's bliss.

However, one piece of advice would be to go pick up a dictionary and look up the word "fact" and the word "opinion" and see if you can tell the difference. You are welcome.

Good. Day.

P.S. It's so funny how I notice the join date of some of these.... "people" lol July. Such experience. Much knowledge. Wow. Also, you don't even have a tank. Get out of our forums you misinformed miscreant.

They just need to get rid of the DPS factor for tanks. If tanks want to DPS then roll a damn DPS. I play pld when I tank. When I heal I honestly prefer pld tanks. They are more reliable and predictable.