Thoughts on players of the community.

i bought and played FF11 for 1 week. the turn off for me was there was nor hotbar and no minimap. those are my only complaints. the overall feel of it i like.

now the 1.0 question. i played 1.0 for about 3 months. came in during patch 1.23B. i loved every minute of it. lets throw all that copy pasted stuff out the window. we all know about it. not wanting to go there. 1.23B was going in the right direction. i played to lvl 31 bard and actually was in with friendly people that had to work together. the only real problems. (others might be more) is that the server loading in was so long on it as they were in Japan. 4 dungeons is not a lot of content. sure. though overall it brought the community that cared to help and if not. it was not the me me me crowd.



i personally would love 1.0 back in the good points it brought. even if the environment itself is not a fancy as it was. it felt like you really had to travel instead of. oh i am here. must teleport there. after you ran out of anima in 1.0. you had to travel on foot.

i know 1.0 is not coming back. just there are a few here and there that miss certain aspects on what 1.0 had that we truly lost in the transition.

I am a WoW immigrant. The things I would love to take from there are the following:

1) dynamic raid encounters
2) More fluid combat, shorter rotations. Difficulty put into encounters instead of everything being about pattern recognition and perfect rotational execution
3) Talking to NPCs while mounted
4) Automatically dismounting when initiating combat
5) Horizontal progression, FFXIV style not WoW style. I think the Yoshi P team could find a way of doing this that is unique.


Aaaand...that's it. I'd basically like to see the gameplay cleaned up and raids be more interesting...granted I haven't done Coil past Turn 5. Some parts of World of Darkness are nifty, though. The huuuuge rotations bother me the most. Huge and/or clunky. I know everyone reading this is thinking "Lol you're BLM complaining about rotations get gud". You have a point, sirs. BLM doesn't have a lot of buttons, my problem with BLM is slow cast times + timers + attention span of a goldfish means I sometimes lose Enochian at embarrassing moments. My NIN alt plays well due to its speed but that's a good example of many buttons. It's doable but it's just scraping what my hands are capable of.

Anyway for anything outside raiding and combat (though I like NIN, I should level it on Gale soon) I immensely prefer FFXIV. This world is one I'd much rather be in than Azeroth. I don't want to see raid encounters focused on to the exclusion of everything else. That's what WoW has been doing lately and it's awful. It plays like a dream but....there's nothing there anymore.

Too me its refreshing to see you guys reply. This wasnt meant as a bring FFXI back and make it FFXI-2.
I have 4 chars 2 on legacy servers and two on non legacy servers. The legacy servers gaming mentality is very ffxi and the non legacy ones are very "wow". I say it like that because it has turned into a generalization and everyone thats non 1.0 and ffxi seems to be put in the same folder.
Just a simple thing on how everything must be done in a fc on non legacy servers shows a bit of the mentality where stuff is pretty much meant within your guild. Most ffxi players dont have that mentality thats all. Dont turn this into a mega debate now was just explaining how it seems to be viewed.

I tried to write up my feelings as a 1.0 player, but it's difficult with 1,000 character limits.... (really bad forum design choice, but w/e).

For a tl;dr

1.0 was a unique and one of my best MMORPG experiences.
- Mixed with some amazing concepts and some poor concepts (like the experience limit - but that was shortly removed).
- A lot of issues were caused by the internal structure of the game, rather than the design choices.
- Combat was simple since there was no interest in developing it further because 2.0 was a thing.. but I still prefer the old system over this one. (2.0 BLM in particular is difficult for me to accept since using Fire on Ifrit is ridiculous).
- Communities were probably better IMO because the game wasn't easy so most of the players were dedicated to make things enjoyable, so obviously everyone was interested in cooperating.
- Also the graphics and animations were the best I have seen in any MMORPG to this day.

Edit: I made a bigger blog post about it. http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest.../blog/2485072/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arabian_Wolf

I only played 1.0 beta for 10 mins then never came back again,

And since then played on 2.0 , the community back then was far more wonderful than now for example:

Back in the days in dungeos when I tell player to DPS marked target when they aren't, they apologize and DPS target then we all laugh and live happily ever after.

Now in HW, I tell them the same, they start arguing about how bad I am in my role (a Tank), nevertheless I argue bit of them till their true colors appear then I vote dismiss them.

Call me brutal but I need to elitist douchbag in my group telling me how to play my role (which I am not perfect at but managed to tank most extreme Primals and up to BC T6 pre-HW) when he/she isn't doing his/her role properly.

So yeah sadly more WoW babies mentality is slowly poisoning the game social and playstyle aspects.

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I find most of the pretentious douchebags *didn't* play wow, but instead pine for FFXI-2.

Yellow: When you write a post just edit and you can type more than 1000 letters :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Wow's issue actually has nothing to do extreme class homogenization/streamlining of game play. It all comes down to 1 thing which started in in Cataclysm, and guess when wow subs went down.

No content.

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No, their problem is devs that know what we think is fun more than we do.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Yellow: When you write a post just edit and you can type more than 1000 letters :)

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Thanks bb :3 I just edited my post for a blog link instead since this entire thread got me going. I'm not going to read the arguments though since people on here can be pretty hurtful and ignorant (see: I quit within a day and never went back, all of 1.0 was bad- type arguments just don't hold any weight when 1.0 and 1.23 were vastly different).

i would have to agree about blizzards thoughts on. "we are the devs we know what is fun for you if you like it or not deal with it". which started in cata and from there was a crash and burn. mists of pandaria kept subscriptions at a steady pace for the ones that left were being replaced at a decent pace on the people returning.

then we had a facebook garrison crap in warlords with crap all content. hell people even said during beta phase this is what is fun keep it in and improve on it. they came out and said deal with it in a indirect way. they removed almost if not all the things people wanted them to keep.

by the looks of the legion reveal they actual look like they smartened up when they saw their player base say. well if you say to us "deal with it" well you're no longer worth my money.

will see what legion does.

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Originally Posted by CelestiaYasuhiro

Depends on server I guess.
When I was in Gilgamesh I had a miserable time there and didn't want to log in because North American players are pretty toxic showing signs of elitism, always bringing up how they miss World of Warcraft, acting very rude to me and other players, not wanting to show signs of building a community.

Tonberry it's a non issue most of the time, do catch quite a few NA data center rejects here and there but they get quickly shut down, I've cleared things I had trouble with in Gilgamesh, I've made some nice friends, I'm happy here and wouldn't dream of going to Duty Finder with Americans again.
A majority of players who speak English in Tonberry tend to bring up how horrible the NA community is.

Guess it's just cultural difference.

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generalize much
talk about totally off
this right here is what destroys games
/downvote

One of WoW's biggest issues is that in order to reduce the intimidation factor for potential new players looking to join, Blizzard makes a concerted effort to completely invalidate every previous expansion the minute a new one comes out. To that end they have even started including a free character "boost" with expansions (as well as selling them separately for $60 each), so that when a new player starts, they can have a character at the same level as everyone else going in.

For those who haven't played WoW in its current incarnation, imagine this alternate reality for FFXIV:

Everybody who buys Heavensward is given a free level 50 class of their choosing and goes straight to Ishgard from the character creation screen, with no context or story catch-up provided. That's okay though, because this version of Heavensward is a brand-new narrative with absolutely no connection to the story, characters or events in ARR. 99% of the story threads, characters and questions left unfinished, missing and unanswered in ARR will remain that way forever. The Scions of the Seventh Dawn are never seen or mentioned again.

All of your max-level characters lose the ability to queue for any of the pre-expansion dungeons or raids from ARR using the automated system, and now can only access them solo or by manually forming a group, so no more daily roulettes. All of those earlier dungeons and raids also no longer offer any alternate currency or anything else of value that is relevant within the Heavensward expansion. Instead the game now effectively has a mere eight dungeons in total with no more to be added, there is no alternate currency here either, and the gear they provide is outdated within a month by raid and world gear, meaning there's no reason to ever run those dungeons again within the 1.5-2 year lifetime of the expansion.

Flight has been removed because the developers admit they can't figure out how to make the game interesting or challenging if flight exists. Instead, the world has been designed with as many bumps, rocks and logs as possible to make simply getting around irritat— sorry, "challenging" and time-consuming instead, while all world content is removed except for a handful of daily grind zones.

FATEs and hunts have been removed from the game.

The day/night cycle and weather have been removed from the game, outside of certain scripted events.

All crafting professions now each use a single universal resource material (e.g. blacksmiths get "metal", weavers get "cloth", culinarians get "meat", etc.), of which they gain a set amount once a day by pushing a button. Players can now only wear three crafted items at a time, and crafted items are all considerably weaker than every other contemporary gear alternative.

Miners and botanists no longer need to explore the world to harvest resources. Instead, the only gathering resources in the game are now "ore" and "herbs", and these are collected from a personal instanced mine or garden once per day.

Retainers no longer wear actual gear, and instead only have an ilvl number increased by applying generic "weapon" and "armour" tokens. There is now only one category of retainer mission, and this primarily rewards either retainer XP or 100 gil.

Airships are no longer crafted by players, and instead are created by talking to an NPC, pushing a "Create Airship" button, and waiting two hours. When sent on missions, airships have an 80% chance of being destroyed, rewarding no items. Actually using the airships to explore islands in person will no longer be in patch 3.1.

The Gold Saucer is now only accessible the first week of each month. Chocobo racing, Triple Triad and both Cactpots have been removed.

All new reputation factions no longer include quests or storylines, and instead simply require you to kill literally 9,000 mobs to reach max level to gain access to the relevant faction's best items.

90% of hardcoded emotes are now just text with no accompanying animation, and separate face and body emotes are no longer a thing. The remaining emotes are no longer interactive, and characters will no longer look at things, characters or enemies they are targeting. Casters will no longer wield their specific class weapons when casting, and will instead all share the same two bare-handed casting animations.

Housing for players and free companies has been removed.

All cutscenes (main story, side story, transition and incidental) have been removed from the game, with the exception of a 60-second cutscene at the end of each zone.

To make up for the lack of non-raid content, two more difficulty modes have been added to Alexander instead: "very easy", which has no mechanics and rewards no loot, and "hard", which fits between normal and savage. The developers feel this is more than enough "content" to be getting on with, so stop complaining.

Heavensward itself will end with the Allagan Empire turning up out of nowhere to be fought in a raid. This will in turn will culminate in a 30-second cutscene where the Garlean Emperor turns up, claims victory over the Allagans, then is never seen or even mentioned again in the game ever again, along with the rest of the Garlean Empire.

Other than the Allagan raid, there will be no other endgame content or things to do that don't revolve solely around acquiring disposable gear. No relevant dungeons, no Gold Saucer, no minigames, no actual crafting, no player housing, no non-grind factions, a severely-restricted "transmogrification" glamour cosmetic system, no dyes, no airship exploration, no Primals, no sidestories, no hunts, no sightseeing, no challenges.

There will also be no in-game narrative linking this expansion to the following one; instead, SE will employ a second-rate writer to put out a pulp novel you have to buy separately to discover the story that should have been in the game itself.

This is what WoW has become. With Warlords of Draenor the game managed to lose half its playerbase in the space of six months, and Blizzard are only retaining a sizable chunk of those left because they introduced the ability to pay for game time with in-game gold. For many of the remaining players, Legion is Blizzard's very last chance to get their act together.

Ducky: The thing is this game gets compared to WoW so much. Thats why I thought its because of the player base and if they are the majority of consumers.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Ducky: The thing is this game gets compared to WoW so much. Thats why I thought its because of the player base and if they are the majority of consumers.

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This is the case because WoW is considered the most successful MMO of all time (and still is if you look at just raw sub numbers), so of course players will try to draw parallels to in a way to emulate its success.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

As a Summoner I will keep DOT's ticking on mobs even if it's just two in a pack like any half decent Summoner should.

So you're telling me you'd 'try' to dismiss me because I'm not ONLY attacking your target because you want your Job to be even easier than it actually is?

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Nope,

As I mentioned "DPS focus" and dotting other targets while focusing on marked target with casting ruin or whatever new filler spell SMN is given is fine by me.

But say you were focused on different target from marked several times and when I tell you to focus on mine but you still refuse I will dismiss you in the end.

I played FFXI from the day of launch, took a hiatus to try FFXIV 1.0 through beta and launch. After experiencing that stinking pile of crap, I ran screaming back to FFXI for the release of Abyssea content which revitalized a fading game dramatically. When they released Seakers of Adoulin, I recognized the featureless maze zone design and crap content that I saw in 1.0. Clearly, you could tell how they reassigned design teams as they focused on reboot of the FFXIV title. FFXIV 2.0 has been incredible so far (except for what they've done to crafting in 3.0)

I tried WoW on a trial version and really hated it.

That said, the influence on game direction is not being set by old WoW players. It is being set by whatever opinions SE listens to from their Japanese players. You can say whatever you want over here, safe in the knowledge that it won't influence a damn thing.

Waeksyn: Do SE japanese consumer market really like this WoW gamish style then? I thought JP where the hardcore ones that loved FFXI and stuff that was a insane grind?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Waeksyn: Do SE japanese consumer market really like this WoW gamish style then? I thought JP where the hardcore ones that loved FFXI and stuff that was a insane grind?

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My personal experience with WoW was too short to have any opinion.

It's interesting you mention FFXI and the grind. It seems like more and more new content in this game is designed to slow people way down - either through grind or lockout limits. I don't think this has anything to do with "influence" by one game style or the other. It's more about trying to hold subscriptions for the longest possible time.

Eventually this will be the game's downfall as more and more players lose patience and realize that weekly lockouts are a bad substitute for having enough content.

i know i am in a very very niche minority. though when for myself. i have never found myself banging my head because it was to grindy. going back to my first sentence. i actually want more grind to XP and way harder hitting monsters. like i said. i am in that much of a niche player base that wants it more grindy.

i know other would definitely disagree with me. which is ok.

Dementiondrive: I think many people agree with you on that matter. Everyone is assuming that A Savage is considered and hard and thats it beat that and then complain. Aside from A Savage you are kinda stuck just capping your esoterics and levling other jobs and crafts shouldnt be an option just because you should have something to do. The game should provide enough gameplay for you to feel like you want to play your main job all the time and not just spend countless of hours farming ex roulette for yourself and helping friends in order to put that in a position of having something to do. This is for another discussion though. I'm smiling when writing this knowing there are many people who want the original content to be harder :)

I'm pretty sure it was the 1.0 players who provided the feedback that has reshaped this game into what it is today. Though that isn't to say SE weren't inspired by certain general themes and concepts from other successul MMOs, because, well, why wouldn't they be? Ignoring other successful MMOs would lead to a bad game and failed launched... Oh wait.

People and ideas from FFXI resulted in 1.0's original design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Waeksyn: Do SE japanese consumer market really like this WoW gamish style then? I thought JP where the hardcore ones that loved FFXI and stuff that was a insane grind?

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I don't think so, at least they probably didn't know that they liked it until they played it themselves. The MMO market in Japan is incredibly small. If a Japanese XIV player didn't come from XI there's a high probability this is their first MMO period.

2.0 turned out the way it did because of Yoshida's experience with Western MMOs and his overall love for the genre. He's also an admitted Blizzard fanboy of sorts and has a very good understanding of WoW and it's mechanics, which is ultimately the main reason the game is the way it is from a design perspective. It was built for a worldwide audience first and foremost and Yoshida was the person at Square Enix that had the best idea of what that worldwide audience wanted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tadacho

People and ideas from FFXI resulted in 1.0's original design.

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no plan where you got that idea from, but you're way wrong there.
1.0s original design was all tanakas idea.all that was similar to FFXI was the races, and tanaka himself said that he introduced the same races so to aid FFXI players with transitioning over to FFXIV.
if you were part of the very early stages of the game, alpha to yoshida takeover, you'd understand that.the only thing that ever came close to FFXI was how the old skill point system worked, not exactly like it did in FFXI, but a similar approach.

Black_Rose: Don't forget that Tanaka said in multiple interviews he never wanted another WoW. WoW is something thats already out and every hard to compete with. 5m accounts dont mean 5m active subs we all know this. This is why IMO Yoshi P should have known better. All it takes for Blizzard is to release their new MMORPG and its kinda gameover. You should create trends and not follow them espcially coming from someone as SE thats a powerhouse with an amazing franchise.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

All it takes for Blizzard is to release their new MMORPG and its kinda gameover.

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Do you mean Project Titan, which got restarted twice and finally scrapped sometime last year?

And all the people that feel extremely wronged with Blizzard's attitude towards WoW, do you think they will just go, "Yay, new MMORPG from Blizzard!"?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Black_Rose: Don't forget that Tanaka said in multiple interviews he never wanted another WoW. WoW is something thats already out and every hard to compete with. 5m accounts dont mean 5m active subs we all know this. This is why IMO Yoshi P should have known better. All it takes for Blizzard is to release their new MMORPG and its kinda gameover. You should create trends and not follow them espcially coming from someone as SE thats a powerhouse with an amazing franchise.

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But you should also remember that 1.0 wasn't so successful which lead to that Tanaka step down and Yoshi took over.

and BOOM, 5 million (not all active, but majority) players.

@Tadacho

The feedback from 1.0 players barely did any real changes to the game. Yoshida would have made the same game regardless of the feedback of 1.0 players because he based it off of playing WoW and GW2, which they were fairly open about during development.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I have 4 chars 2 on legacy servers and two on non legacy servers. The legacy servers gaming mentality is very ffxi and the non legacy ones are very "wow". I say it like that because it has turned into a generalization and everyone thats non 1.0 and ffxi seems to be put in the same folder. .

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To be fair, trying to emulate what was successful about World of Warcraft is not in and of itself a poor idea. I think WoW's biggest success was in its fluid combat and usability. That's an area Blizzard has always excelled in. WoW also had great content once, in the days that Yoshida said he used to play. It's easy to forget that now. WoW of today is a shallow husk of its former glory but Wrath of the Lich King and Burning Crusade were fantastic. WoW in its prime was the best MMO I've ever played, yes, including FFXIV. So why am I here now?


Well, believe it or not, FFXIV is more reminiscent of Wrath of the Lich King than Warlords of Draenor is. And it has much more memorable characters and a deeper setting.

Also, regarding an abundance of WoW players...let us not forget WoW at its peak had 12 million active subscribers. There was enough of us to populate a nation. So in any MMO you are bound to run into people who have passed through Azeroth at least once.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

@Tadacho

The feedback from 1.0 players barely did any real changes to the game. Yoshida would have made the same game regardless of the feedback of 1.0 players because he based it off of playing WoW and GW2, which they were fairly open about during development.

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This. The stuff us 1.x players wanted was just tossed out the window mostly. We thought we were getting an updated and improved upon 1.23 , instead we got...well, the entire core of the game changed. I remember the alpha forums were...quite a scary place.That is when they implemented the limit on how many characters you could have per post..because people were ranting so long, etc. Haha.

I was there for the whole thing, I read every article Reinheart translated, every little thing Yoshida said and all the community reps. From 2010 to the relaunch to now. Never once did they give us the impression that the entire core game would be 100% changed. This is why nearly all my 1.x friends are long gone.

Personally, I feel indifferent about the game. There are aspects I like, like the graphics, QoL stuff this game has, but then the dislikes, the end game, how each patch now is like a copy paste, no variety of content, no end game open world content (Only gathering, and treasure hunts, and then hunts which are invisible fates) and if I had to pick,

I liked the direction 1.x was going vs the direction the game seems to be going now, which is cut/paste patches with weekly/daily caps. I detest the system. My friends and I jokingly refer to it as the chore list.

Edit: In fact Rokien would post daily saying how the game is going to end up a GW2/WoW clone or have tons of similarities...and people laughed him off the forums. Because everyone playing 1.x had the mentality that nothing was going to change, just improvements that were needed. Like removing the lag, adding more content, etc. I don't know where you saw the dev team say this because the forums woulda been hardcore raging...

Well I played Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Jumpgate and many others.
I never played FFXI though.
I did play WOW.
Guess that disqualifies me automatically.

@Iromi

They mentioned it fairly late in development with comments like how Yoshida said he enjoyed Guild Wars 2. They also said they had their developers playing current MMORPGs to gain insights into how to design the game. The only reason they'd make comments like that is if they were going to copy paste the living hell out of what they were playing, which was most likely WoW. I don't have a date for when they said those things. However, I do know it was some time after the servers for 1.0 were shut down, possibly half way through development of 2.0.

I can sympathize with how 1.0 players feel, since I lived through the Star Wars Galaxies redesign era and saw how that effected a lot of people. "Hey, I know you really like the game you are playing now, but here is a brand new game! Oh, and you can't play the old one ever again. K, bye~!" Bait and switch on a whole other scale.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

@Iromi
They also said they had their developers playing current MMORPGs to gain insights into how to design the game. The only reason they'd make comments like that is if they were going to copy paste the living hell out of what they were playing, which was most likely WoW. I don't have a date for when they said those things. However, I do know it was some time after the servers for 1.0 were shut down, possibly half way through development of 2.0.

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I remember quite a few instances leading up to ARR where Yoshida name dropped WoW as a main point of reference, but I don't have specifics quotes offhand either. He still brings up WoW a lot in interviews to this day. He's a big fan of Blizzard in general though and mentioned in a pre-ARR Letter from the Producer that he actually visited Blizzard's campus at one point to talk to the WoW and D3 teams about game development, operations, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mindylou

generalize much
talk about totally off
this right here is what destroys games
/downvote

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This isn't reddit or YouTube comments m8.
Been on NA server long enough to get a good idea of what it's like.
Least I'm here now and not there.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Working their asses off? The event was very small, barely worth calling an event, let alone an anniversary event (which is typically notably larger with more effort put into it then a regular seasonal event). All it was, was the developers patting themselves on the back for a job well done. Thats literally all it was. The only notable thing about the event was the 2 minions it provided.

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Someone sure is salty and bitter betty!!

@Fendred: So this is the 1.0 fault for giving in to this? Most likely this game was funded by money from FFXI so why would someone treat FFXI gamers like this then who helped fund this game so Yoshi P and his dev team could have a job? (this isnt meant as a personal attack just curious if there is truth to this)
From what you and @Iromi are saying the people from the darkest hours of FFXIV continued to play and pay for a subscription and wasnt really rewarded by getting what they actually wanted instead 1.0 players and FFXI players where used to pay so Yoshi P and the dev team could have a FF WoW Version? Again im asking I was not active during the forum times I was just playing FFXI and 1.0-1.23.

I really and honestly thought that the way this game is now was based of a decision from the player base and not a call from the dev team themselves to make it like this. This kinda makes me sad a bit cause what happened to this beeing a game from the gamers for the gamers as Yoshi P has claimed multiple times? That means opinions like Moonleg and many others who constantly bash on people with a FFXI-2 theory or go back to FFXI a bit invalid. Its leaning towards the following imo.

1.0 players and FFXI players paid for a game they wanted and beleived in and in all honesty and i say this with the outmost respect its the money from the 1.0 players and FFXI players and people with double subscriptions that funded the way for one type of game and pretty much used for a game that is a copy paste of everything thats out :( Now im bummed out.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

To be fair, trying to emulate what was successful about World of Warcraft is not in and of itself a poor idea. I think WoW's biggest success was in its fluid combat and usability. That's an area Blizzard has always excelled in.

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That is very true. Even for the things Blizzard didnt do themselves, they allowed third-parties to do. As a result the combat was very fluid and the ui very comfortable. (with addons)

Unfortunately, UI and combat fluidity were things not copied from WoW. Those 2 are the weakest points of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Edit: In fact Rokien would post daily saying how the game is going to end up a GW2/WoW clone or have tons of similarities...and people laughed him off the forums.

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Well, we did call it after all. Mind you, back when I was around (1.0, to before the 1.2 patch) the forums were a lot more civil then they are now. Some flames yeah, some rants yeah. But it beats white knights trying to mindfuck bludgeon people into submission with bullshit ''arguments''.

Atleast in a heated discussion you know people care, rather then ''they are probably trolling''

Aeyis: The only problem is the people monitoring these forums are only adding crowns on conversations that either involves adding plush toys for sale or anything thats gonna come close to WoW gameplay wise :/ I really really thought the community wanted this. Thanks to Fendrid and Iromi i know the deal now.