Religion is bad, M'kay?

Well, personally, Divine Right doesnt sit well with me no matter who claims it.

Neither does "Divine Bloodlines" for much of the same reasons. So I guess i'm anti-Japenese eh?

No, I just recognize that those tend to be go to answers for incompetent rulers who can't otherwise justify rule.

Richard Cor de Leon didn't need to convence his people that he was a good king, they believed it all on their own.

So, this.misunderstanding is part cultural diffrences and mostly biased opposition infavor of one's own sect.

I guess as a Protostant American, "God Kings" and "Divine Apointment" just dont sit well with me. As opposition towards The Orthodoxy's system seems to rub you the wrong way.

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

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Originally Posted by Deifact

Because Religion is evil. Just not everyone realises it yet.

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Because Religion plays on the most primal fear, the fear of death. Do this and it is all roses and chocolates in the after life, do this and it's all fire and brimstone. Using fear as method of control.

Fear and a common enemy are the staples of controlling the populace, Thordan did that with the Dragons.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

The theme isn't that religion is bad, but that religious people are rubes who don't understand what they're perpetuating. If you look at the events of the game and the history you uncover, that should be obvious (and personally, it's a narrative that is very, very believable).

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The 12 are treated as legitimate. Gridania is even more an open theocracy than Ishgard(at least it also has noble houses!). The Church of Nald'thal sits on the Syndicate Council and the head of it just steps in and treats the sides in the Uldah issue like bickering children and solves it. A Church provided sanctuary for Cid for 5 years and even helped him regain his memories.

But Hey why notice that when you can casually assume that Catholicism is the only possible religion that exists!

And for everyone trying to say this game is pushing an Atheist message. The two main antagonists in this game over the long Haul are the Ascians and the Garleans. The Garleans are the only nation on the planet that are explicitly Atheists. They are not treated as some misguided good guys. They are treated explicitly as what they are a Totalitarian Empire of bastards. They commit Genocide. They have a strict Caste System! And they are going to keep doing horrible things until they stop publishing ff 14, when this expansion is but a memory Garleans will still be commiting atrocities.

Now lets look at who they try to Emulate. the Allag. They seem to go from being Sunworshipers to outlawing all religion and nearly destroying the world.

Now lets look at what we learned about Primals in the MSQ. They are litterally just creations of Aether. They are not what they are summoned as. They are the worst aspects of a faith litterally given form. They are flaws and lies made manifest. Not Gods who walk the earth.

So maybe things are a bit more even handed on the issues of faith and religion but the presentation is that PEOPLE are flawed. People do stupid and bad things. People are manipulated by their greed and ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

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So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

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Actually, Gaius had valid points. The Primals, The Twelve, The True Eikons, they all have remarkable similarities that it's hard not to question if what he said was right. I may have even sided with Elidibues if given the opportunity because I'm not a one dimensional "Good Guy". Even IRL I describe my self as Chaotic Good.

Also, fun fact, Fascism is a belief in Nationalism, Militarism, and National Self Sufficiency. Totalitarianism is not necessarily an aspect of Fascism while Socialism and Marxist Communism are the exact opposites of it. If Capitalism is the Right Wing and Socialism is the Left Wing then Fascism is the Far Right while Marxist Communism is the Far Left.

I'm a self described Chaotic Good, Fascist, that does indeed believe in social darwinism because capitalism doesn't work without it. Why Fascism is associated with the Nazis I'll never know since they were Socialists and, as stated before, the opposite of fascists.

But now we're getting into the real world's issues and ergo breaking The MMO Creed, so I'll leave it where it sits and move on.

Now how we're we comparing Ishguard to modern corruption again?

I heard there was some cultural reason behind this. Doesn't matter anyway, story is story and you can't deny these thoughts on religion or cults have merit if you look throughout history.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

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'objectively wrong'? not really, there's no such thing in politics. It all depends on perspective. Garleans do have a reason for their primal hatred and it's because they are slowly destroying the world by existing so they've chosen to remove the problem permanently and it is a solution, it's just whether or not you're willing to do so is a matter of perspective.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

The 12 are treated as legitimate. Gridania is even more an open theocracy than Ishgard(at least it also has noble houses!). The Church of Nald'thal sits on the Syndicate Council and the head of it just steps in and treats the sides in the Uldah issue like bickering children and solves it. A Church provided sanctuary for Cid for 5 years and even helped him regain his memories.

But Hey why notice that when you can casually assume that Catholicism is the only possible religion that exists!

And for everyone trying to say this game is pushing an Atheist message. The two main antagonists in this game over the long Haul are the Ascians and the Garleans. The Garleans are the only nation on the planet that are explicitly Atheists. They are not treated as some misguided good guys. They are treated explicitly as what they are a Totalitarian Empire of bastards. They commit Genocide. They have a strict Caste System! And they are going to keep doing horrible things until they stop publishing ff 14, when this expansion is but a memory Garleans will still be commiting atrocities.

Now lets look at who they try to Emulate. the Allag. They seem to go from being Sunworshipers to outlawing all religion and nearly destroying the world.

Now lets look at what we learned about Primals in the MSQ. They are litterally just creations of Aether. They are not what they are summoned as. They are the worst aspects of a faith litterally given form. They are flaws and lies made manifest. Not Gods who walk the earth.

So maybe things are a bit more even handed on the issues of faith and religion but the presentation is that PEOPLE are flawed. People do stupid and bad things. People are manipulated by their greed and ignorance.

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All of this. Someone gets it.

This is why I don't read into fiction too much I'm just here for the ride. Why can't we just enjoy story's for the sake of the story why do we have to tear it apart to find a meaning that may not even be there or that the author didn't intently intend to put in.

There now that that's out of the way it's not that religion is evil or wrong its when people use it to justify what they do.


Its for the greater good sir ( pushes nameless person ( I'm not gona bother coming up with a name.) off a cliff .......ok he didn't turn he's innocent well had to be sure. OK NEXT.)

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

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There totally is objective truth in reality and even in fiction. You can claim its political differences but when someone shouts the Sky is red and its my opinion you can't question it. They are wrong. The Garleans don't hunt down Primal summoners, Eikon worshipers to save the world. They want to conquer the world and use the "primitives don't know what they are doing" as moral justification.

And its not even true. Did the Domans summon a primal? No. The Garleans are just a bunch of self righteous conquerors. Gaius claims his nation is fair. Read over the caste system they fall under as described in the library. The Garlean nation isn't fair or just. Its cruelly regulated and uses up foreigners as second class citizens. Yeah he had a pet Roe who's so happy he could get above being used as a second class citizen he started preaching Gaius' fairness.

We also know that Primals exist independent of the Real thing. This is hammered Home by the MSQ. Shiva's soul sits with her beloved no matter how hard the Heretics tried. There was a Real Bahamut and his Summoning just created a murderous copy that was not the Dragon returned. SO yeah we know the Garleans are wrong about metaphysics.

Saying "maybe the Garleans have a point" is on par with saying "maybe the Ascians have a point" or even better "Maybe the Cloud of Darkness had a point" their point is just self serving lies for their horrific actions.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

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In the grand scheme of things there is no good or evil, only reason we have such perceptions is how our society is currently built, you would be a fool to assume it couldn't possibly change to something you or I would perceive as 'wrong' or that the world is black and white. Fairness isn't real either.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

In the grand scheme of things there is no good or evil, only reason we have such perceptions is how our society is currently built, you would be a fool to assume it couldn't possibly change to something you or I would perceive as 'wrong' or that the world is black and white. Fairness isn't real either.

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There is no Good nor Evil in this world. Only thinking makes it so.

- William Shakespear

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Originally Posted by PogueX

the other big theme in FF games is the enemy always being the more technology advanced nation. At least in FF6, FF7 (Shinra) and FF14

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That trope was literally invented by Tolkien (along with the Fantasy genre itself) in LoTR. So much of fantasy as a whole still copies his concepts, that it shows up in a lot of places to this day.

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

Why does Square-Enix consistently portray organized religion as evil?

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Because for the most part, organized religion IS evil. At best it's a tax evasion scam that milks gullible people for money, at its worst in history it has been used as groundwork for genocide. The benefits of organized religion scarcely outweigh its negatives in most cases. Organized religion has been constantly abused by individuals and organizations throughout history for their own personal gain, to this very day (the GOP). [Please note that I'm not talking about religion in a general sense, only ORGANIZED religion.]

I'm not going to go deep into this but the Japanese have an ENTIRELY different perspective on organized religion than Westerners do, and there is a lot of history and culture you have to understand to see why it's set up as an easy punching bag in Japanese media. Cults are also a big problem in Japan (google Aum Shinrikyo; they're not the only ones, either.)

I mean if you want to get fussy about ideology, the Garleans are basically a caricature of a stereotypical EVIL TOTALITARIAN EMPIRE as well, complete with a hilariously evil looking emperor. What's S-E got against totalitarian regimes with comically evil-looking emperors?

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Originally Posted by adn

Because for the most part, organized religion IS evil

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How bigoted! Not different from what Westboro Baptist Church and Chick Tracts say about the Catholic Church. Perhaps you're ignorant of organized religion's history beyond the molestation of boys, punchlines, and Cultural Marxist revisionism. The Roman Catholic Church had been the West's only real religion- Paganism has NOTHING but songs, stories and superstitions, the Catholic Church influenced whole kingdoms and laid the foundation to the scientific method- what is evident is resentment & envy gussied up with sophistry of rationalism; Paganism divided people: Europe would have been sent back to the Iron Age if it weren't for Christians who unified pagan tribes and stabilized Europe- even in Japan- the Japanese would still be routinely slashing their guts and abandoning the old and the young to die in the mountains if they weren't introduced in the Meiji Era to a Judeo-Christian morality.

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Originally Posted by adn

religion IS evil.

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Also: Evil according to what standard? Good feelings? Either all religions are the same, or they are different; But all religions cannot be true at the same time, because they teach many things completely opposite from one another. So if there is no objective truth, then the opinion that all Organized Religion is Evil is as valid as Organized Religion is Good, and it all boils down to your feelings and opinions that change from one time to another. But then, if there is Objective Truth, then Organized Religion is only as evil as the people who abuse this concept, and so it can be as good as the best. So far, I have not seen Square Enix show the best of religion, because they have not experienced real religion. (No "No True Scotsman" fallacy here- that's a fact.)

As far as I could tell the science-loving, atheistic Garleans are modeled after the USSR. They murdered so many people for daring to believe that "The People" or some surrogate for the supreme earthly power they revere will be judged by God, and those who want power to control people even at the individual level HATE the concept of someone above them, but then a society comprised solely by these people cannot last because there's no real faith, no forgiveness, no redemption, and no truth in the sort of natural materialism those sort of people subscribe to, and so no ultimate meaning beyond the self-deceptions they lose themselves into. If you want proof, look at how long the USSR lasted: and look at where China and Japan, both overwhelmingly secular, are headed into, demographically speaking.

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Originally Posted by adn

I mean if you want to get fussy about ideology, the Garleans are basically a caricature of a stereotypical EVIL TOTALITARIAN EMPIRE as well, complete with a hilariously evil looking emperor. What's S-E got against totalitarian regimes with comically evil-looking emperors?

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If I didn't believe in God nor in His Church, I WOULD object to the portrayal of Garleans as being offensive; there are many people who think that there's nothing wrong with engaging in realpolitik- that was the mentality that launched World Wars: It wasn't because Jesus told them to make war, but because of the mindset that there is no Heaven nor God; all you have is this Earth and its limited resources, and you should be as brutal as possible to get what you want, even at the individual level- it's the other person's fault that they lost out and they deserve to lose, and you to thrive and pass on your genes for no other purpose than it being embedded into your genetic code.

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Originally Posted by Nialle

That trope was literally invented by Tolkien (along with the Fantasy genre itself) in LoTR. So much of fantasy as a whole still copies his concepts, that it shows up in a lot of places to this day.

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Well, think about it: Who is a bigger danger, the idiot caveman like myself who believes in God and his holy plank and nail, or the really intelligent atheist who does not believe in any objective morality and is armed with nuclear and biological weapons? Obviously the smarter one thinks they know what's good for everyone, and has the capacity to enforce their ideology onto everyone. I'm being the caveman here, trying to push back as hard as the world pushes me.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

There is no Good nor Evil in this world. Only thinking makes it so.

- William Shakespear

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Just because Shakespeare said it, doesn't mean it's true. Othello is a cautionary tale about what happens when black men get together with white women; Merchant of Venice says "Jews should convert to Christianity, no matter how right they are." do you still wish to quote Shakespeare or conveniently pick what suits your agenda? That's what Islamic terrorists do, and if it's all the same to you, then let me do it with the Bible and you should not be shocked.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

In the grand scheme of things there is no good or evil, only reason we have such perceptions is how our society is currently built, you would be a fool to assume it couldn't possibly change to something you or I would perceive as 'wrong' or that the world is black and white. Fairness isn't real either.

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Then you should look forward to social acceptance of pedophilia, animal cruelty, rape, mass murder, necrophilia, theft, oppression, and so, so, so many more that are natural. (There's no such thing as "consent" in the animal kingdom- that is also a human social construct, a lie people tell themselves, if you're willing to subscribe to that view.) If this is true, then any horrible thing that happens to you is just a matter of your own opinion and would not warrant any sympathy. Yes, I could empathize with you, but being a relativist would make me emotionally detached from your suffering as I ignore you and move along to commit subjectively horrible things to everyone.

Okay, so a bunch of meta topics will literally go on forever, which is the reason I previously stated that I preferred not to talk too much about my own living experience beyond the game, so getting the thread back on track to some extent- lorewise.

What exactly is the basis of this world, does Evil and Good exist in Hydaelyn, or is it merely "Light and Dark"? From what I get so far, Hydaelyn is good, and is Light, and so the Warrior of Light is necessarily good, right? But by what standards? There doesn't seem to be a central authority in the "ways of Hydaelyn" other than the Scions, but they don't seem to be an institution through which a person goes through their whole lives to mark their birth, growth, and death. I'm guessing it's like how Japanese treat Buddhism and Shinto- Birth and Life-related is Shinto/Gridania and Death is Buddhist/Uldah?

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

Just because Shakespeare said it, doesn't mean it's true. Othello is a cautionary tale about what happens when black men get together with white women; Merchant of Venice says "Jews should convert to Christianity, no matter how right they are." do you still wish to quote Shakespeare or conveniently pick what suits your agenda? That's what Islamic terrorists do, and if it's all the same to you, then let me do it with the Bible and you should not be shocked.

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Um uh, actually I was re-quoting the Shakespear quote that was used as nomura's tagline for FF vs13, now Tabata's FF15. <nervous laugh> Tbh Im not 100% sure which play it was pulled from. I've only read Mcbeth, Julius Caesar, and Romeo&Juliet all the way through.

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

If I didn't believe in God nor in His Church, I WOULD object to the portrayal of Garleans as being offensive; there are many people who think that there's nothing wrong with engaging in realpolitik- that was the mentality that launched World Wars: It wasn't because Jesus told them to make war, but because of the mindset that there is no Heaven nor God; all you have is this Earth and its limited resources, and you should be as brutal as possible to get what you want, even at the individual level- it's the other person's fault that they lost out and they deserve to lose, and you to thrive and pass on your genes for no other purpose than it being embedded into your genetic code.

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The people who launched the World Wars were Catholic and believe what they were doing was going to get them into heaven they were trying to force people to accept Christianity and if they disagreed with Christianity they would die. That was the mentality that launched the World Wars.

Let's just say that extremism in any direction is bad instead of pointing fingers at what we personally believe is and isn't right.

Or, if you want to go that route...
"There's only two things in this world I can't stand: people who are intolerant of other peoples' cultures... and the Dutch!"

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The people who launched the World Wars were Catholic and believe what they were doing was going to get them into heaven they were trying to force people to accept Christianity and if they disagreed with Christianity they would die. That was the mentality that launched the World Wars.

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I thought that was the mentality that started the crusades? Cause if I'm not mistaken, The Collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was what started WW1 and The Economic Penalties on Germany paved the way to WW2.

The Catholics aren't innocent by any means but they can't be blamed for everything either.

Religion =/= Bad. Crazy Nut Jobs = Bad.

We have Thorden VII who was a crazy nut job WITH a religion, we have Nael van Darnus who was a Crazy Nut Job WITHOUT a religion, then we have the Ascians who are crazy nutjobs not modifier needed.

Ya see? It's fanatical nut jobs that are the problem. And any that claim a religion just bring that religion down in the mud. For Ex. IRL Jihadism is a real problem but they're just nut jobs pretending to be muslim. I know Islamic people and they aren't Jihadists. I've read the Quran side by side with the Christian Bible and they say almost the exact same thing with different wording or from a different perspective at most.

So, to recap, Religion=Neutral, Nut Jobs=Bad, and Nut Jobs who pretend they are part of a religion = The Religion getting a bad rep because of them.

The main problem is that somehow these nut jobs tend to get into positions of power in organized western religions (though it could just be the power they gain turns them into said nutjobs). But yes, it is crazy nutjobs that are the core issue with why things go south.

Well the problem there is that Western religions tend to be absolutist; they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. This gives followers of the faith a common enemy, and as we all know nothing brings people together quite like having someone or something they can all hate.

And so the problem with non-Western religions is that they can get away with being wishy-washy since they are filled with magical thought than rational philosophy. It had been the last stages of Aristotelian/Platonic philosophy that had arrived to the conclusion reiterated by Western religions: 1.What ever begins to exist has a cause. 2.The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. If you believe the Universe existed forever, then you must not know how the Law of Thermodynamics works- namely that processes in a closed system reaches for equilibrium; if infinite, the universe would've ran out of energy long ago. Since the universe can't cause itself, then the cause must be beyond the Universe, beyond space, time, immaterial, eternal, and powerful. Much better than an egg or whatever it is they believe in eastern religions.

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

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The Final Fantasy series do not portray organized religion as evil. They portray fanatism and blind (mass) murder in the name of a god. Things organized religious groups.. err, tend to do at some point in their history (unless they get crushed before, that is).

I have yet to find any "Religion = Evil" message in any FF I've played. All the games featuring crystals are basically "save these gods and the world with them", FFVI has nothing against the espers but

Kefka is one psychotic murderous god so we kill him

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in FFVII you're saving a god against an alien, in FFT you're fighting against fanatics abusing the powers of the gods, not the religion itself. Can't comment on 8 & 9 as I have yet to do them.

FFX : the religion itself is corrupted at its core because of a misunderstanding.

In the end you put it on rails again and the belief itself brings no harm anymore upon Spira

FFXII : nothing to do with religion directly, more "abuse of political power"

can't comment on 13.

in FFXIV the gods as we fight them are just Aether-sucking illusions. And Ishgard has a particular case of fanatism, but the religion of the Twelves in itself has yet to be pictured as "bad".

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Originally Posted by Nialle

That trope was literally invented by Tolkien (along with the Fantasy genre itself) in LoTR. So much of fantasy as a whole still copies his concepts, that it shows up in a lot of places to this day.

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George MadDonald, William Morris and Lord Dunsany object to your rewrite of the history of Fantasy in literature. So do the 1950s authors of Sword and Sorcery novels.
Tolkien did NOT invent the Fantasy genre, although there certainly are a large number of folks who think they have to copy his works to be successful.

Now, if you were to say "Tokien's publisher ruined the Fantasy genre by breaking story into a long, drawn out series of novels" you'd be closer to the mark.

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

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Now we're doing this...

It's not really my place to comment on Eastern religions, because I don't know very much about them. However, what you call "wishy-washy magical thought" is arguably wiser than "there is one God as spelled out in the Christian Bible," and just as important to them as the Bible is to Christians. That "wishy-washy magical thought" generally accepts that it doesn't know everything, and the wisest thing anyone can say is "I do not know," because it's only though accepting your own ignorance that you can learn.

Seriously though, if you're going to call other religions stupid you should be willing to accept your own religion is stupid, or at least has stupid things within it.

Anyway, yes thermodynamics is a thing, but without knowing how much initial heat (energy) existed it's impossible to calculate how much time it would take to reach equilibrium. We're actually headed towards that effect, otherwise known as the Heat Death of the Universe. Scary stuff, huh?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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VIII has nothing religious about or in it, and IX has churches but the religion of the planet is not really touched on.

XIII's relationship with faith is... complicated. There's one good goddess, the rest of the gods are evil, but it has little to do with human worship.

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Originally Posted by IoannesBellator

And so the problem with non-Western religions is that they can get away with being wishy-washy since they are filled with magical thought than rational philosophy. It had been the last stages of Aristotelian/Platonic philosophy that had arrived to the conclusion reiterated by Western religions: 1.What ever begins to exist has a cause. 2.The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. If you believe the Universe existed forever, then you must not know how the Law of Thermodynamics works- namely that processes in a closed system reaches for equilibrium; if infinite, the universe would've ran out of energy long ago. Since the universe can't cause itself, then the cause must be beyond the Universe, beyond space, time, immaterial, eternal, and powerful. Much better than an egg or whatever it is they believe in eastern religions.

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You're bordering on what's known as the First Cause fallacy. There's nothing wrong with using causality to claim the Universe had a beginning, but to then extrapolate hat claim into whatever deity you worship is where the argument breaks down.

I suspect by Eastern religions, you're referring to either Hinduism or Buddhism. Hinduism has a creation story, and Buddhism remains silent on the matter, because it's irrelevant to enlightenment.


To answer you original question, religion is one of the easiest way to control people, since it appeals directly to their emotions and beliefs. It's one of the easiest vehicles to use.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Well the problem there is that Western religions tend to be absolutist; they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. This gives followers of the faith a common enemy, and as we all know nothing brings people together quite like having someone or something they can all hate.

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I could be wrong, but didn't parts of Japan try to slaughter the early Jesuit missionaries and Japanese Christians?

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Originally Posted by myahele

I could be wrong, but didn't parts of Japan try to slaughter the early Jesuit missionaries and Japanese Christians?

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My knowledge of Eastern history is not too great; however, I believe you are correct, though not for the reasons most people believe.

Medieval Japan was very, very big on loyalty to the Emperor and one's Lord. Since Christianity places God above all other loyalties, the Emperor (etc.) thought it would cause conflict with loyalty to him, so Christians were persecuted. Christianity still is a minority religion in Japan to this day, though considering modern societies have largely evolved past religious persecution and the Emperor is little more than a figurehead these days, that's probably just because Christianity is not native to Japan.

Some characters are very religious, despite knowing that the leaders of their faith are corrupt. There is Lucia who calls on Halone for strength. Garleans are more or less atheist and yet there she is, praying to Her during steps of faith.

It's not the faith that is bad, but the ones who call themselves leaders of men. Even the druid/shamanism of Gridania has draconian aspects that are easily corruptable.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Some characters are very religious, despite knowing that the leaders of their faith are corrupt. There is Lucia who calls on Halone for strength. Garleans are more or less atheist and yet there she is, praying to Her during steps of faith.

It's not the faith that is bad, but the ones who call themselves leaders of men. Even the druid/shamanism of Gridania has draconian aspects that are easily corruptable.

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Like the "If the elementals say no then F*** human decency" complex? Cause that is preaty BS to me. Sure the elementals were powerful once, still are to an extent, but with only a select few able to communicate with them I can't help but wonder how often the elementals are saying no and how often the Xenophobic Gridanians are using that as an excuse to not help outsiders.

the church isn't the only bad guys in FF14 though you have the Monetarist a faction in the Ul'Dah's syndicate that conspires to commit regicide

so you can look at that and think "oligarchy is bad m'kay" something that most would agree with

Because not all religions are the same. The First Cause isn't a fallacy by any means, but I can see where you'd think that it would because of my borderline conflation of Platonic First Cause/Demiurge with the Judeo-Christian God.

And for the record, before anyone accuses Catholicism of the cause of all wars ever, Buddhism and Hinduism aren't some ideal, peace-loving religions. Just ask the Muslims in Burma/Myanmar how their Buddhist neighbors treat them as well as the treatment of Christians by Hindus at Orissa. And I'd think we're all justified at some level- coexistence is a lie. I myself would quickly grab a gun if a Crusade is ever called- but then again, what's the likeliness of Pope Francis ever doing that, or even regular Catholics doing it?

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Originally Posted by PogueX

the church isn't the only bad guys in FF14 though you have the Monetarist a faction in the Ul'Dah's syndicate that conspires to commit regicide

so you can look at that and think "oligarchy is bad m'kay" something that most would agree with

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Well, yeah... and no. Because I'd see government as being cyclical but still prone to becoming corrupted versions of themselves. Monarchies (Rule by one) can become unjust tyrannies; and they devolve to or evolve from aristocracies (Rule by few) which become oligarchies; and they devolve to or evolve from democracies (Rule by the citizens) which become mob rule. Regardless of the form of government, legitimacy is enforced by the strongest. People band together and decide what is right or wrong on consensus, whether it's rape, murder, or pillage, etc. That's how warlords rise up from mobs of people who fight each other- they band together, and how kings form from groups of warlords. In each forms, for a large part of human history, religion was used to legitimize their rule. Without religion, we can just pretend that we're good enough and smart enough, even though it's evident that we'll never be so.