AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

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Originally Posted by CupDeNoodles

Warrior tank here since 2.0. Played in one dungeon on DRK and never tried again. It feels even more clunky than PLD (which I got to 50 in 2.0). I just love my axe wielding warrior too much to switch. Why do DRK swing those giant swords so awkwardly? It really makes those swings feel slower.

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Too add to the weight of our burden, of our darkness...

XD. I'm going to wait until 3.1 before I make any major switches though. Chances are I'm going to get all three tanks to 60 anyway, but I'm really hoping DRK can finally get some synergy with itself.

Better to buff than to nerf

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

What the heck ? DRK has the same raid utility as PLD (one reduces str, the other int) and brings in more dps to make up for the *slightly* lower survivability. It's a better MT than PLD in both A1s and A3s too.

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Unless your group has a monk in which case a DRK has literally no utility to provide and PLD has "something" to offer every comp. However, even with paladin's utility, in current raids either bring a DRK with a ninja or just bring two warriors and you're good to go.

A major issue with DRK right now is that if your group has a monk, why would you ever bring a DRK over WAR/WAR or WAR/PLD? The anti-synergy is real when considering the only utility DRK brings is the one debuff.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

A major issue with DRK right now is that if your group has a monk, why would you ever bring a DRK over WAR/WAR or WAR/PLD? The anti-synergy is real when considering the only utility DRK brings is the one debuff.

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DRK has better damage then PLD and has better magic resistances.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm very disappointed with Machinist. Not because of its DPS or anything, just because it feels like a Bard clone... I think that was an incredibly stupid move and wasted all the potential a new Job could bring...

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This is the only reason I would consider MCH to be any sort of "failure." People have been asking for a pure ranged DPS job since day 1 of this game's release. I was hoping MCH would be that, but instead it's another pseudo support role.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

Unless your group has a monk in which case a DRK has literally no utility to provide and PLD has "something" to offer every comp. However, even with paladin's utility, in current raids either bring a DRK with a ninja or just bring two warriors and you're good to go.

A major issue with DRK right now is that if your group has a monk, why would you ever bring a DRK over WAR/WAR or WAR/PLD? The anti-synergy is real when considering the only utility DRK brings is the one debuff.

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Considering the necessity of tank dps and the utility of drg and ninja most people are asking why bring a monk over the other dps as drk is pretty much a bleeding edge staple of progression at this point due to the fact it has the int debuff and crushes pally dps. In fact I don't personally know any progressing savage group on my server without a drk but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Then again there is the fallacy of viewing classes in a vacuum and the overwhelming arrogance of players who think that because they aren't good at something in 3 weeks that it's intrinsically broken.

Also I wouldn't consider any of the classes to be "failures" on release. Something needed tuning =/= failure in any literal sense. By that metric every single job in the game has been a failure. It creates a false dichotomy.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I feel like that MCH (and a bit of BRD) got a lot of wasted potential when it came to the expansion.

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I'm of the opinion ammo should have been a separate resource to be generated and consumed by certain MCH skills, with Reload as a cooldown that gives you full ammo when needed. Granted, this would change ammo from being bonus damage on shots to a necessity for shots, but I'd be okay with that.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

People who complain about GB or BRD's complaining about WM from what I have seen are usually the bad players who don't know how to be mobile in between GCD's when appropriate to do so.

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Sure, let's dismiss the people who found instant attacks and mobility a fun aspect of the job as bad players. Because if you don't swallow the turd sandwich placed before you, you're instantly bad, am I right?

You might want to stop trying to dismiss people who are reacting as expected to bad implementation. There's several threads on the DPS forums that talk about this in detail, even with the trolls that will spew crap like "git gud".

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm very disappointed with Machinist. Not because of its DPS or anything, just because it feels like a Bard clone. I think that was an incredibly stupid move and wasted all the potential a new Job could bring.

Personally, I'd probably drop the current Gauss Barrel/Wanderer's Minuet effects from both Jobs. Drop many of the support skills Machinist has and instead work them into Bard (a Song version of Rend Mind, for example) instead of the Wanderer's Minuet set of skills Bard got (because right now Bard feels like a weak DPS and a weak support Job. I'd like to see it feel like a strong support Job), so Bard completely loses the Bow-Mage aspect (although it would cast Songs still). Rework Machinist into a DPS, with the cast time being a standard thing, rather than attached to Gauss Barrel (it would be the player reloading the gun).

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The thing is that unless you spread around the ability to regen TP and MP in-group, this would make BRD mandatory for every raid group. As much as I'd love Bow-Mage to be thrown into the void to never return, if this is your alternative I'm not going to cosign it.

PS: Yes, I know BRD and MCH are required in raid groups right now. That's not exactly a good thing, either. I only forgive it because I'm assuming TP/MP regen will be spread to other jobs, either caster DPS or melee DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

DRK has better damage then PLD and has better magic resistances.

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What I was getting at was if you have a monk and need more dps just bring a second warrior which is fully capable as mt for all content while doing the most damage; also, the single magic cool-down DRK has does not out weight the utility of paladin when a warrior main tank is more than capable and all three tanks have very close offtank dps. Double warrior is also great in A4s so far in early phases to keep path (and eye) up during quarantine and berserk+equilibrium make the high stacks while in quarantine a breeze. In the adds phase, the main tank can easily solo an add down which would be more difficult for other comps as well.

This is with a monk, just want to restate that again. I understand the value of NIN + DRK comps, but my group has been running double war in savage (cleared A1/2 first week and A3 two weeks later) since we have a very good monk and it has been working well with no compelling reason to change it. I started each turn as PLD, but have ended up switching to WAR on each one since it is simply better for our purposes and in most cases.

DRK is the tank class I generally enjoy the most, but the anti-synergy with monk just makes it poor in our group over the mentioned alternatives and I enjoy warrior enough to where it is not an issue I would ever want to slow down progression over. Maybe I am in the minority for this perspective, but this is just an issue I have found from my experience.

AST just got buffed and it is amazing. I feel actually competitive now.

The collective unconsciousness buff was icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

they tried to make classes different? MCH and BRD has the same stance. they added positional to NIN so every melee DPS has them. AST has regen and shields. if they were trying they didn't do it that well.

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Each of the classes still have different perks to them that sets up a foundation for their own gameplay. Ninjas have their mudras, DRGs get their timed jumps, as well as maintaing BotD. Monks still have a hhuge emphasize on maintaining full uptime for stacks. BLMs cycle between astral and umbral, and enochian adds on top of that since their IV spells also require astral/umbral respectively, while keeping their 2.0 in check because they can't switch astral/umbral with IV spells. SMN has always been DoT oriented and they get an extra layer of stack management that works in-tune with their aetherflow.

I'm digressing when I say this though, MCH and BRD's stance ability is functionally the exact, same ability. I feel this is where they dropped the ball when it came to diversifying ranged dps' gameplay. Both when you boil it down, comes to watching for skill procs, keeping their own buff refreshed and keeping DoTs up. Ammo doesn't add that much of a variety to MCH for aforementioned reasons, and BRD doesn't mesh well into WM because of their animation and their reactionary procs from traits.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

Unless your group has a monk in which case a DRK has literally no utility to provide and PLD has "something" to offer every comp.

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One could ask why you're bringing in a monk if you're going for bleeding edge content as it has literally zero synergy in a group, and close to no utility if you bring in a DRK. (If you're not going for bleeding edge content however, what you bring in has no importance whatsoever, so the argument is void from start.)

Not that you can't do it (far from it), but that's not the most efficient way to go

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Originally Posted by tremor24

A major issue with DRK right now is that if your group has a monk, why would you ever bring a DRK over WAR/WAR or WAR/PLD?

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you could spin that easily. "A major issue with MNK right now is that if your group has a DRK, why would you ever bring a MNK over DRG or NIN ?"

Thing is, both answers are correct. You just pick one or an other depending on personnal preferences.

It takes time to tweak new classes/jobs as things happen on live servers that don't happen during internal testing (or even in public testing). Hell, WAR was considered the sub-par tank after ARR's launch.

Have you never played an MMO before? Seems like it.

Never before has any new job in any MMO been balanced on release. It's either launch the classes as playable but under/overwhelming or tune them for months before releasing them with 0 player feedback. The only failure I see here is OP for thinking SE can do something that basically no-one has ever done before.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

you could spin that easily. "A major issue with MNK right now is that if your group has a DRK, why would you ever bring a MNK over DRG or NIN ?"

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Yes, you are absolutely correct, however DRK is the new addition to the game not MNK. It is far more likely for an existing group (pre expansion) to be introducing the DRK job into a group than a MNK which may have been main'ing this job for a long time. Also, it is much easier for a tank to change jobs due to raid acquired gear overlaps than MNK to NIN.

I frequently hear that DRK is fine because they were part of the world first A3/A4 clears, but often don't realize that the change to DRK was to compensate for the change of their MNK to NIN. Keeping the MNK while changing to WAR/WAR would have a had a similar impact in my opinion with no place for a DRK option if the MNK was unable or unwilling to switch to NIN.

Also, it is occasionally a dps loss for a DRK to keep up the INT down debuff, but always a gain for MNK to do so.

Yep, no matter how much you plan, there will always be oversights missed. Could be as simple as saying, well look this combo in theory and in test have shown to be as good as NIN's strongest combo but then upon a full blown execution of players who have tried it we've learned that because of attribute distribution, TP and accuracy that the dmg balance between that combo and the NIN is actually far apart from one another.


They can design, playtest and analyze things to the best of their ability but it's not until the players whom provide a higher odd of playing outside the box and doing things they might have overlooked that they can truly begin to fine tune what they might of missed.

Keep in mind 3 jobs, in a yr+ time is not easy, trying to balance and create 3 different play styles that feel unique from the other jobs while also not taking away or making another job obsolete is tough, this isn't FFXI where jobs were shunned from being used because of how OP certain jobs could be, Samurai being able to self skillchain, BLM having full control of potent elemental magic giving them a huge edge on flexibility in a combat system that supported exploiting elemental weakness and since a limitless amount of mages could make use of a Skillchain magic burst it didn't matter how many melee you had to make the skillchain only how many mages could burst off the one skillchain.

It's stuff like above which has and I hope will continue to be avoided as XIV moves forward cause ya, while the nostalgia of 11 is nice the truth is it had a lot of imbalance issues that were never tackled in the amount of time that they should of been and ya it caused a lot of jobs to have loss potential because of it.

Drk was made viable due to magic tank busters in content. But their design, compared to pld/war definitely feels clunky and lacking vision.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

Yes, you are absolutely correct, however DRK is the new addition to the game not MNK. It is far more likely for an existing group (pre expansion) to be introducing the DRK job into a group than a MNK which may have been main'ing this job for a long time.

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Touche. I wasn't in a static pre-HS and didn't consider the things under this angle

I think, especially post patch where it's buffs for days, ast has delivered on the card gimmick and is fun because of it. It is certainly whm with cards though. So I can see why whm is threatened. Although the scholar's freaking out just don't know what they're talking about, even with comparable shields ast makes a terrible scholar.

Mch definitely had to borrow some things from brd, like the tp/mp regen and a silence, because it fills the same spot. It borrowed things it didn't need to as well though. Stuff like, 'bard has straight shot, let's give mch hot shot' or 'brd has misery's end, let's give mch heartbreaker' wasn't really necessary. So it's just got the semi combo system to set it apart. I think I prefer it to brd, but that doesn't mean more effort couldn't have been put in. Though I think I've switched to ninja for my off dps. Because of the dead horse everyone's been beating in gb/wm. It went from tolerating it to liking it less and less. I'm done waiting for se to fix it, because they're being stubborn on this one and I don't think they're going to.

Drk I haven't played past the quest to unlock it, so can't comment.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Drk was made viable due to magic tank busters in content. But their design, compared to pld/war definitely feels clunky and lacking vision.

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This for days. That and also the apparent need for more damage, which could possibly be fixed if PLD's enmity issues are addressed.

They fixed all three of them fairly quickly, though astro took longer than I would have liked.

It was their first time adding a batch of new jobs so it's expected that they wouldn't be perfect. I know they released Ninja first but that was just a melee dps that didn't need to have much synergy with anything.

The reason why most MCHs have low dps:


It requires a higher skill-level to maximize their potential.

cmon, don't even get me started on MCH. They're not weak, it's just the player not playing correctly. :v.

I can't play Machinist! The job is a failure!

/totallynotsarcasm

With all due to respect to WAR and PLD's, DRK's main issue is that it feels like the class has to work harder than the other two just to compete on the same level and we're also lacking synergy with a few skills.

I mean our AOE threat is fantastic and debatably the best but it still relies on Blood Price and being hit to keep it up. While this isn't usually a problem there are situation when things aren't poking you as often as you need them too just to keep the MP flow up. Dark Arts seriously needs to be examined again imho because the boosts from it don't feel as useful as it's high MP cost.

Don't even get me started on Blood Weapon.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

The reason why most MCHs have low dps:


It requires a higher skill-level to maximize their potential.

cmon, don't even get me started on MCH. They're not weak, it's just the player not playing correctly. :v.

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They were objectively weaker than other DPS classes, as well as bard. Not to the point of being useless, but it was still pretty terrible since they were essentially doing 2.0 dps in a 3.0 environment.

I partially agree with the OP, but I'm also not fully able to judge them because for the except of the DRK, the other two are still low for me.

But for what I could tell, I don't like these 3 new class-I mean jobs either because, as i said, I do partially agree with the OP.

AST, as much as it was weaker, and now being stronger, I think it's one of the "better thought" jobs: the buffs they give are quite nice and I like that they can switch their healing effects, although copying a tad too much the WHM and the SCH. I give it a mediocre pass though.

MCH feels like a bard for me but I don't know yet, but for what I could tell they use turrets instead of music for mp and tp regen...and also get their version of WM at 52, so say goodbye to your moving dps! But overall, they seem okay-ish but not original: they just use guns instead of bows in my eyes.

Now, as for DRK, I have my two cents about it, because I main a warrior and so far DRK doesn't do as much damage as one: they have no burst damage whatsoever and no major skill can deal as much damage as Fel Cleave.
So there's paladin left and...that's where I can compare because DRK is thought to be a MT: the parry trigger thing and overall damage reduction skills feels more like a paladin, which isn't a bad thing per se but it HEAVILY copied Paladin on that regard (Rampart is Dark Skin, Sentinel is Shadow wall, Bulwark is Dark Dance). On top of that DRK also have the constant mana issue that DOES NOT translate into complexity: an annoying gimmick is still annoying, and mana drain is annoying and sadly it's required for some skills to be performed. Did they think that mana draining would make DRK unique or something? Because I don't think so!

So as much as I can't speak for the other 2 jobs, I really wished DRK relied less on his mana and didn't brutally copy many of the paladin's skill set and also warrior's (They have a second combo chain like warriors', but only Delirium is really of any use). As of now DRK (and I suppose MCH and also partially AST) feel like copies or reskins and that is kind of weird considering that the ninja, which came during 2.X, really felt different than MNK and DRG with their mudras.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

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This^. I really despise Delirium, it feels like a lazy throw in (even the animation sucks ) and it makes me miss my Storm's Eye.

Would anyone else like it if MCH became full on physical, ranged DPS and lost its support capabilities? And BRD used to be actual support before didn't it (before it was changed)? While I do kinda wish BRD was a focus on songs and buffs and all, I really don't see SE changing it :C I would def play MCH if it wasn't just a rehash of BRD...I think a lot of people agree on BRD/MCH being wayyyyy too similar.

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Originally Posted by Indiction

Would anyone else like it if MCH became full on physical, ranged DPS and lost its support capabilities? And BRD used to be actual support before didn't it (before it was changed)? While I do kinda wish BRD was a focus on songs and buffs and all, I really don't see SE changing it :C I would def play MCH if it wasn't just a rehash of BRD...I think a lot of people agree on BRD/MCH being wayyyyy too similar.

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No because then we would go back to having bards be mandatory in progression statics and that was awful. At least now we have an option to bring a machinist instead, which actually does offer different benefits to a party.

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Originally Posted by Indiction

Would anyone else like it if MCH became full on physical, ranged DPS and lost its support capabilities? And BRD used to be actual support before didn't it (before it was changed)? While I do kinda wish BRD was a focus on songs and buffs and all, I really don't see SE changing it :C I would def play MCH if it wasn't just a rehash of BRD...I think a lot of people agree on BRD/MCH being wayyyyy too similar.

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This does not work in current party compositions. The way it is right now, Bards and MCH compete against each other for a spot (when before it was unanimously bard). What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard.

On a side note, melee dps also needs to take a look. The way it currently stands, a DRG is practically garunteed a spot if you're looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard. looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)

I think all three classes are wonderful, as opposed to terrible, additions to the game. What you are actually interested in is the underlying role system. The jobs are more flavor than actual mechanics. It would be totally possible to make aggro management a combined effort between two different roles: A controller and a tank. Instead, tanks have all the abilities related to holding aggro. In return, every tank must come with a full set of aggro management abilities mirroring every other tank. The less roles the game has, the more homogenized the jobs will be. We had some similar criticisms during the beta and launch from some insightful players. I think they should experiment with adding a new role to the game as opposed to adding more classes in the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think all three classes are wonderful, as opposed to terrible, additions to the game. What you are actually interested in is the underlying role system. The jobs are more flavor than actual mechanics. It would be totally possible to make aggro management a combined effort between two different roles: A controller and a tank. Instead, tanks have all the abilities related to holding aggro. In return, every tank must come with a full set of aggro management abilities mirroring every other tank. The less roles the game has, the more homogenized the jobs will be. We had some similar criticisms during the beta and launch from some insightful players. I think they should experiment with adding a new role to the game as opposed to adding more classes in the trinity.

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+1...I like that idea. That being said, we need more than 8 people in a raid. 10-12 would be nice.

Instead of a new role, I wish we could change jobs in dungeons and other content as long as we're out of combat. This way it's perfectly fine for different jobs to have different niches. It would, however, mean that there will be pairs or sets of jobs that one should level up, for example PLD for MTing and WAR for OTing.

Job homogenization really is a product of free market forces. Players want every single job to be able to fulfill all situations in which the role is required. So every tank must have AOE tanking abilities and have defensive abilities capable of tanking every single boss in the game. We players are to blame for this.

Before complaining of job/class homogenization, we should ask ourselves this: are we fine with our chosen class/job unable to do certain content even though we have the right role? Are we fine playing a WAR knowing that it's 100 times harder to tank a specific boss as WAR than it is to do as PLD/DRK? Are we fine playing a BLM knowing that there are and there will be bosses where we literally have to keep moving 90% of the time?

If the answer is no, then we are the ones to blame for job/class homogenization.

As others have pointed out, it is *much* easier to release an undertuned class and then slowly fix it rather than release something blatantly OP that people flock to and then feel upset when it gets nerfed after they have invested time in it.

Heaven forbid they had made DRK an OP class there would be so many DRK running around that you wouldn't even be able to see Idyllshire through the shimmery red Darkside auras, and then the Biblical-level flood of tears when DRK eventually got nerfed would annihilate the forums. This isn't hypothetical either; this exact scenario played out for WoW in WoTLK with Death Knights.

People like seeing classes buffed, people don't like seeing classes get nerfed. In the long run it is always easier to release an undertuned class than an overtuned one.

Seeing as I've switched to a DRK main, I think DRK is fine. I'm not even full VIT spec and I've got more HP than most other tanks in my FC and as long you can manage your cooldowns, DRKs do just fine as MTs.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

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It's not the community to blame, it's Modern MMO's to blame. Back in the EQ, FFXI days, you could bring whatever. Yeah sure bring him and his wife, they are really nice. Oh we already have 7 ninjas in the raid. Whatever, 8 won't hurt. Nowadays, you don't just need a certain amount of people to put legitimate attempts on a boss. You need execution, and raw numbers. I might do a shitload of damage on A1, but what happens when I walk into A2? I'm gimping myself by not being a summoner, I immediately want to level summoner. Otherwise i feel carried. I can DO MORE DAMAGE if I play summoner. (This is just an example). This leads to the classes being homogenized. SMN can AOE, why can't I? Why can't SMN keep up with me on single target fights? Etc.

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

DRK has interesting ideas but still lacks PLD or WAR raid utility, is still inferior to other 2 tanks in their own domains (MT or OT and even survivability) and is, arguably, bad designed (darkside, parry based tank)

What do you guys think about it? What do you think about the new jobs anf them being patched/fixed every 2 weeks. Is it normal a new job from an expansion to be weaker? Isn't usually the other way around?
I want to hear your feedback, and your opinion, your deception if that's the case.

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I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Destomius

I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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And this is why we can't have nice things.

Just don't go around and start asking why people constantly complain about the community heh!

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Just don't go around and start asking why people constantly complain about the community heh!

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OP asked "What do you guys think...?" and "I want to hear your opinion" and I simply gave an honest answer. Calling DRK a failure is completely ridiculous considering many of the world's top groups to progress through savage Alexander content used DRK main tanks. How is it not ignorant to call DRK a failure as a new job?

As far as MCH and AST are concerned, yes they were released a bit underpowered but it honestly didn't take long for SE to release balance adjustments to bring them up to par. I'd honestly rather new jobs be released undertuned than overtuned, because overtuned jobs get nerfed and it feels much worse to invest time/esoterics into a job only to see it nerfed.

The community would be far worse if all we did was coddle each other and give "nice" answers instead of truthful ones. OP clearly said "I want to hear your opinion" meaning we have every right to share a negative opinion on his ideas.

Maybe they should add a support role to groups

At any rate better underpowered than overpowered I say.
WoW death knight anyone?