Still none of the needed changes?

Don't be a baddie is all. Learn the fight and quit complaining. That's like me casting enochian 3 seconds before oppressor jumps, and then getting mad at SE for a bad design and raging that my buffs need to be changed or reworked.

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Originally Posted by Lucael_Shikaree

because really there's not such a thing like "beyond player control".

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Ok, sure, by all means let me know how you keep rolling combo's on a enemy that becomes invulnerable for some animation. Let me know how you keep hitting something thats jumped out of the arena. Let me know how ignore stun results. Let me know how you keep on hitting when mechanics require you to leave the enemy. Please, enlighten me.

Also, while at least people are discussing blood, ive yet to see anyone with a counterpoint as to the copy/past of fang and wheeling, a term i believe some call 'button bloating'. No point in it existing, but built in a way that requires it to be around. I have had fights where ONLY fang, or ONLY WT proc'd. did my rotation change? no. did my damage change? no. did the effects change? no. there is absolutely no reason for it other than laziness.

Not another one of these threads ; ;

Seriously.. It's not bad. Nearly every time I've lost BotD in an encounter it's been my fault. Did 1 too many GK.. Popped BotD when I should've waited til after the jump.. Accidentally pressed Heavy Thrust or Phleb instead of my 4th.. etc, etc. It's not just the mechanics, the mechanics are there to try and mess you up, but for every mechanic there's a way to overcome it, a way to optimize your rotation in such a way as to not loose BotD or at least mitigate the time it will be down.

As for WT/FC being "copies" of each other.. Why all the hate with these abilities? I really just don't understand. It took some getting use too but after a few runs its like second nature. Complaining about these just seems like you want something easier to play, because in honesty, what difference does it make if it actually has a different effect? You're still going to do it in the rotation and the DPS numbers are still probably going to be relatively the same due to balance.. So.. There's not really anything to gain.. If you just want to remove the RNG then that's just lazy IMO.. Changing it's effect, though, doesn't really do anything different and you'd still have the same complaints.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

just seems like you want something easier to play

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For the love of...i keep saying im not looking for some sort of 'easy mode' design, I have said twice now on this thread, im perfectly fine with it being a challenge. im A-OK with being made to work for it, but thats NOT what any of this is...is anyone who says this even reading what i type?

"Not another one"

Guess what, they're popping up because people are sick of these design flaws. Just watching through the forums shows im far from the only person to bring these issues up, and the majority, though not all, of counter points boil down to "shut up, good damage" or "stop saying you want easy mode" when neither of these are even the main point.

I never stated this is 'too hard' i said its 'crappy design' and i will continue to make new threads on this if i have to in order to keep up visibility on the issue, thats the only way anything's going to change.

The problem you face is for every 1 of "you" there's 1000 dragoons that don't have any problem with it. The traffic on the forums is astronomically smaller than the entire player base, so just because there are a handful of complaint threads doesn't mean everyone has a problem with or share the same concerns.

All we see is complaint after complaint, never any constructive suggestions. So give me the option, what would replace WT/FC dynamic? What would be so great about this proposal, for us dragoons that don't really have any problem with the current dynamic, that we'd be willing to switch sides and show you support?

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Guess what, they're popping up because people are sick of these design flaws. Just watching through the forums shows im far from the only person to bring these issues up, and the majority, though not all, of counter points boil down to "shut up, good damage" or "stop saying you want easy mode" when neither of these are even the main point.

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That is statistically untrue. People use comment sections, forums, suggestion boxes, etc. to complain. People don't normally use those tools to talk about how great something is. If someone is happy, they're more likely going to keep on playing and never say a word. So yeah, you are going to see most Drg threads on these forums about ppl upset or complaining. But that's probably less than 10% of the population that plays that class. Guess what, the other 90% or are content and happy with what they have.

Not sure how theres a design flaw. BotD is a resource that you need to manage, just like many other systems in this game. The Dark Arts system is like this as well. Yeah the cooldown is only 5seconds, but if you use it every time off of cooldown then you'll quickly run out of MP, which results in lower damage and locking you out of some abilities.

These new systems encourage you to be strategic in how you consume and renew these resources. THATs where the challenge lies. If you want to completely get rid of these systems then you are just asking for simple/easy mode.

Funny, because the majority of drg's i meet on my own server share these frustrations, while the supporters are the minority.

I already made several proposed changes, yet every time i do put those suggestions up they are always answered with shut up! damage or X job has it worse

To restate a few suggestions i made, drop the timer on botd and add a stacking buff similar to wrath, and have GK based on THAT. this way it still keeps GK a bit limited but without downright killing the buff and crippling the player when things DO go south.

Change the copy/paste build of FnC/WT and make them their own skills. instead of a random proc, change them to follow FT/CT respectively as combo bonuses. with one building the stacks for GK and the other having its own effect, such as reduced tp on next ability to account for ever increasing SS, or something similar to give it its own purpose. This way they each have their own purpose, and dont just get macro'd onto the same button on the hotbar.

Rookie mistake. If you wanna make your personal preferences sound like an objective argument, you gotta slip the phrase "artificial difficulty" into it at least 3 times.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

It affects the Dragoon's DPS and at most one Bard or MCH, unless you're stacking BRD/MCH for some reason.

That's not raid DPS.

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Considering that the BRD/MCH and DRG is part of the raid, it does indeed boost raid DPS. Your counter arguments in this thread are on some next level ish.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

These new systems encourage you to be strategic in how you consume and renew these resources. THATs where the challenge lies. If you want to completely get rid of these systems then you are just asking for simple/easy mode.

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Strategic planning is all well and good, but when the majority of content coming out in this game is little more than a series of damage checks where you outright fail if you dont hit X damage in a certain amount of time..doesnt really add up.

And for the love of all thats holy..ive said it three times now...but apparently its being ignored..im NOT looking for 'easy mode', how many times do i have to say it? or are you guys just using old answers from other conversations.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

And for the love of all thats holy..ive said it three times now...but apparently its being ignored..im NOT looking for 'easy mode', how many times do i have to say it? or are you guys just using old answers from other conversations.

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Here's your main issue: You're calling for changes on how a class plays because you find that you cannot deal with the interruptions to your DPS that come in current raiding content. Many end game raiders know multiple DRGs who are doing top tier DPS, even with all the same interruptions that you are dealing with. So, in essence, you are asking for changes to accommodate your style of playing the class that is resulting in sub-optimal performance, or performance that you feel is in need of improvement, though not as a result of your personal contribution. This is essentially asking for the class to be easier to play, hence the reactions.

The reality is, the class is 100% just fine. A day ago, it was probably #1 DPS, and given the contribution of Littany and Disembowel, even if they are not #1 from a pure DPS perspective, they probably still are from a raid contribution perspective. Just because you have issues, does not mean the class has issues.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Strategic planning is all well and good, but when the majority of content coming out in this game is little more than a series of damage checks where you outright fail if you dont hit X damage in a certain amount of time..doesnt really add up.

And for the love of all thats holy..ive said it three times now...but apparently its being ignored..im NOT looking for 'easy mode', how many times do i have to say it? or are you guys just using old answers from other conversations.

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The challenge lies with maximizing DPS while maintaining this resource. Asking to remove the resource is asking for easy mode. Sorry

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Originally Posted by T0rin

The reality is, the class is 100% just fine. A day ago, it was probably #1 DPS

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I feel like im talking with a broken record player. The big counter point im seeing from people here revolves around where it sits on the damage charts. Granted, a few people have brought up their own views on botd and how they're fine with it, great, ok. yet even after i was asked for proposed solutions, and provided them earlier, still not discussed. The other issues i mentioned? Same story.

Some people are fine with the changes? More power to em. but im growing tired of being met with 'you want easy mode' on this thread which IS NOT THE CASE. Clearly im wasting my time talking to people who just parrot the same stuff. 'easy mode' 'top damage' are the majority of what im seeing today so I take my leave.

See you all in another few patches if things still arent resolved.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Considering that the BRD/MCH and DRG is part of the raid, it does indeed boost raid DPS. Your counter arguments in this thread are on some next level ish.

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It comes down to phrasing.

I don't consider something to be "raid utility" if it only can possibly affect a small portion of the raid. Following the logic that if only one person gets affected by it, that's raid utility, then NIN poisons are raid utility and Cleric Stance is clearly the most OP raid utility because of how much of a personal increase it is to a healer's DPS.

Semantics aside, I'm not wrong, which is the important part. Dragoons don't have the best raid utility.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Strategic planning is all well and good, but when the majority of content coming out in this game is little more than a series of damage checks where you outright fail if you dont hit X damage in a certain amount of time..doesnt really add up.

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I asked for an example of RNG that would outright punish you for not being conservative about Geirskogul, yet you answered with the 3.0 version of Praetorium. And now you talk about damage checks in endgame? The very same endgame where I failed to find a mechanic RNG enough to disrupt gameplay outside of tornados*? I'm not sure I understand your logic, again.

The only thing I can suggest you is to try other classes, not because "you are not good with DRG", but because I found that it helped giving insight on the game as a whole, and it could help you cope with DRG, just like it did for me. Because I hated it too at the beginning, but I have had enough time to digest the changes.
But if even after that you do not like how the class currently works, I really suggest you do change it - because it already works fine for most of us.

I think I'm done here, I said everything that needed to be said.



*Because seriously, screw tornados.

Torin said it more eloquently than I could. But yea, you ask for it to be simpler so of course that's why we say you want easy mode lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Funny, because the majority of drg's i meet on my own server share these frustrations, while the supporters are the minority.

I already made several proposed changes, yet every time i do put those suggestions up they are always answered with shut up! damage or X job has it worse

To restate a few suggestions i made, drop the timer on botd and add a stacking buff similar to wrath, and have GK based on THAT. this way it still keeps GK a bit limited but without downright killing the buff and crippling the player when things DO go south.

Change the copy/paste build of FnC/WT and make them their own skills. instead of a random proc, change them to follow FT/CT respectively as combo bonuses. with one building the stacks for GK and the other having its own effect, such as reduced tp on next ability to account for ever increasing SS, or something similar to give it its own purpose. This way they each have their own purpose, and dont just get macro'd onto the same button on the hotbar.

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Well maybe Hyperion just has a bunch of whiny DRGs, because on Leviathan I've never heard a single DRG complain.

So drop the BotD timer, and make it like War stacks.. You realize you're complaining about WT/FC being copy/paste but then suggest copy/paste from another job as a solution? There's nothing wrong with BotD timer and the "resource management" that goes along with it.

I would be all for WT and FC having slightly varying effects, but again, you're dumbing it down by removing complexity that makes DRG unique compared to the other melee. The problem (not with your suggestions in particular) is that if you have and RNG based proc system you don't want one half giving a beneficial effect while the other doesn't. (one of my previous suggestions was adding a dot to one, but you wouldn't want a situation where you only get the dot proc, or never get the dot proc). So at least both of these being the same means that neither one can be detrimental if continuously proc'd.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

So drop the BotD timer, and make it like War stacks.. You realize you're complaining about WT/FC being copy/paste but then suggest copy/paste from another job as a solution? There's nothing wrong with BotD timer and the "resource management" that goes along with it.

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To be fair, you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the point about copy-paste.

The problem with it being copy-pasted as the OP is stating it is that it does the same damage with the same TP cost with the same effect except from a different angle. Like, if FaC did less up-front damage but applied a debuff while WT did more damage up front with no debuff, that wouldn't be copy-pasted.

Using mechanics styles from other classes is irrelevant to what the OP is complaining about as copy-pasted, especially if "BOTD-Wrath" didn't increase parry chance/crit chance, it wouldn't be a copy paste of WAR's stances.

So I'm assuming you mean..maybe make Vorpal, Full, Disembowel, Chaos thrust, and the 4ths give a "stack" of botd or something? And then 5 stacks = GK? So you get a free 30% increase to jump/spineshatter for using 1 skill, having it fall off for a global cooldown (heavy thrust or impulse dive) then have it right back up? Sounds silly to me. If you DIDN'T mean that then your GK would be even more delayed than vanilla so I really dunno what you want. This is why I generally ignore most people's ideas of why something "needs to be changed", its never really balanced.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

To be fair, you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the point about copy-paste.

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Not misunderstanding just drawing the logical conclusion.. BotD is unique. Copying War wrath stacks would not be. Monks also have stacks, as do SMN with aetherflow and MCH with ammo. There's not anything else like BotD and OP is asking to change what is basically one of our unique identifiers. Does it Jump? Does it feed off the blood of dragons? Then it must be a Dragoon! Oh, it doesn't do that anymore? Move along, nothing to see here.

So yea I can see why a lot of us take these kind of complaints somewhat personally, I love DRG and how it plays, as do many here.

I honestly don't understand the DRG complaints, it is the only mechanic you have that requires thought during the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

I honestly don't understand the DRG complaints, it is the only mechanic you have that requires thought during the rotation.

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Some people don't like to think when playing games, or posting on the forum, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

I honestly don't understand the DRG complaints, it is the only mechanic you have that requires thought during the rotation.

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Wow, I mean really, the same could be said for mnk or nin. No need to get offensive. None of the melee's rotations or buffs are hard.

i dont know but i think DRG is just about perfect right now. it's been the DPS job i've used most up to this point and they put out big, consistent numbers and the job is fun to play. fang and claw and wheeling thrust make you pay attention and find the optimal direction to attack from. keeps the job fun and actively aware during battle when trying to maximize your dps. i like the random positional, it's 50/50, so it's one or the other and actually it's pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Some people are fine with the changes? More power to em. but im growing tired of being met with 'you want easy mode' on this thread which IS NOT THE CASE. Clearly im wasting my time talking to people who just parrot the same stuff. 'easy mode' 'top damage' are the majority of what im seeing today so I take my leave.

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See, but here's why everyone keeps saying that you want an easy mode. Your proposed changes would make everything even easier to upkeep than it already it. Does Blood of the Dragon fall off due to mechanics? Absolutely. But I have not once, outside of server lag, which only happens occasionally, had Blood of the Dragon drop due to something that wasn't a mistake of mine. A stun early on in the fight? Okay, I should have held BotD a little longer before using it. Minotaur in Fractal uses Disorienting Groan, or tornadoes in Neverreap? I should have held my Geirskogul and not used it the moment I had enough time to pop it safely. Oppressors jumping and I just refreshed BotD? I should have known they were going to jump, and reserved my use of the cooldown.

The exception to all these? When you're learning the fight. Because then you don't know what's going to happen. But that's true of Black Mage as well, which got an equally, if not more strict, timer they have to deal with unless they want an even larger DPS loss than we get if we lose BotD.

Would I like to see a different effect for Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw? Maybe. Honestly, I enjoy it how it is, because it forces me to pay attention at least a little bit instead of going into complete braindead farm mode, because of the RNG, and while keeping the RNG, if they had different effects, that would be kind of ridiculous.

BotD is a strict buff to upkeep at times, yes. If we miss one GCD at the wrong time, we could very well lose the buff. But outside of when we're learning the fight, it's entirely our own fault. And if you want to have absolutely no downtime at all, even while learning the fight, I'm sorry, but I think you're playing the wrong genre.

DRG is fine, they already reduce the penalty for not hitting the right positional from 190 to just 90, what more could you possible want?
Let MNK get their 3% lol, it's not a big deal.

Timers! Timers everywhere!
Play Monk, watch your Timer.
Play BLM, watch your Timers.
Play DRG, watch your Timer.
Play Nin, (have not leveed mine yet so no comment)

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Just watching through the forums shows im far from the only person to bring these issues up, and the majority, though not all, of counter points boil down to "shut up, good damage" or "stop saying you want easy mode" when neither of these are even the main point.

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I'm gonna quote this for emphasis, since similar crap is spewed in the BRD threads about WM.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

So give me the option, what would replace WT/FC dynamic?

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WT/FC could be turned into 4th step combo finishes split between Chaos Thrust (comboing into Fang & Claw) and Full Thrust (comboing into wheeling thrust). DRG would thus becoming the only job with 4-step combos.

The other issue is that BotD is mechanically trying to mimic a resource bar of sorts (hence why using Geirskogul reduces the buff's duration). Ideally you could change BotD into a resource bar that floats over your TP bar when triggered that fills up as you perform actions, with the biggest gains being from WT and FC. Managing the bar would be dependent on dealing with the bar depleting over time as well as using Geirskogul. Maybe even give a bonus for maxing out the bar by it giving you some bonus (maybe once you cap the BotD bar it increases damage dealt by all actions but causes all actions performed to deplete the BotD bar until it hits 25%).

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

Timers! Timers everywhere!
Play Monk, watch your Timer.
Play BLM, watch your Timers.
Play DRG, watch your Timer.
Play Nin, (have not leveed mine yet so no comment)

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It's the same everywhere now. Hardly any class identity. Everyone has timers, everyone has dots, everyone gets a playstyle changing buff on the road from 50 - 60. All melee have positionals, all range lose their mobility, everyone gets owned by RNG to the point where it's not even occasionally fun. And that is what needs to be changed, nothing has got to become easier or less engaging, all of these problems can be solved by taking overwhelming complexity away while leaving real enjoyable depth in.

That is the challenge those who call themselves game designers face; they signed up for it, beyond doubt they failed to deliver with 3.0, they better make sure they do by 3.1.

Loldrg is already a hipster class with it being overplayed in the community and SE advertising it so much. Loldrg doesn't need to be easier it puts out big single target burst that's what it's good at. But monk should forever be the top single target dps as their dmg is far more consistent not reliant on burst. Loldrgs having to work a little bit to deal dps makes monks chuckle. :)

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Originally Posted by Egnasya

all of these problems can be solved by taking overwhelming complexity away while leaving real enjoyable depth in.

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Overwhelming complexity? I have to disagree with you entirely on that. The current level of complexity basically only serves to let players who put the time into learning their job be more visible in comparison to people who just kind of do whatever feels right to them. Even then, the hardest part of DRG right now is basically learning when to hold GK and when to fire it. Meanwhile every time I go back to 2.0 rotation, either due to my own mistake, or level sync, I find myself incredibly bored. Simply adding the two RNG positional and managing BotD has made the job so much more fun for me, and a lot of people I talk to agree.

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

Loldrg is already a hipster class with it being overplayed in the community and SE advertising it so much. Loldrg doesn't need to be easier it puts out big single target burst that's what it's good at. But monk should forever be the top single target dps as their dmg is far more consistent not reliant on burst. Loldrgs having to work a little bit to deal dps makes monks chuckle. :)

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Oh sorry, what melee jobs were in world first A4S clear? NOT MNK lol :D

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Originally Posted by Valnen

No offense, but this is just rude. If someone doesn't like the way something is designed, there is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing that.

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The problem is when people don't really try seriously to adapt. Lots of people try out the new way, don't like the change, and immediately head to the forums demanding that the class be "fixed" back to the way it used to be, even though most experienced players of the class have learned to adapt and actually enjoy the new play style.

I agree that there are valid tweaks that can be requested, for example the potency change on missed positionals was way too punishing before, but this thread is basically asking for the entire 50+ mechanics of the dragoon to be scrapped and rebuilt. SoE is not going to do that.

I do realize that the first group content you hit at 60 (reactor, neverreap, bismark ex, ravana ex) is not friendly at all to maintaining buffs with all of the invulnerability phases.

The challenge is to learn when to use the buffs, and knowing what to what to do when you don't have the buff up. It is frustrating at first, but as you learn the fight and the timings, it becomes easier. You learn things like when to hold back on a GK so that the botd buff will last through a phase change, or waiting a second to see if you get tunneled in A4, etc. It's more dynamic.

To me, that's what makes the class more interesting to play than the level 50 version of h-idc-p-ttt-h-ttt-p-idc-h-ttt-ttt combo of old.

Wheeling thrust is still annoying. It never won't be. It's just like how Jump makes you more vulnerable, not less. It's not game-breaking, it just sucks some of the fun out as opposed to when I play Warrior where I just do everything and win forever.

When I compare it to Warrior, I feel like that's kinda the point, too. Adding a Monk-like RNG lockaway move always feels jarring for Dragoon. Every other aspect of the class boils down to positioning or watching cooldowns, and so this added mechanic that only matters sometimes, but matters immensely, feels like spinning a third plate. It doesn't really feel natural. If that's the aim, then hey, it worked; it's even harder to play now. I just don't know that the added difficulty is any more fun, per se.

I honestly don't understand how people are still having trouble with 4th combo abilities. All you have to do is move to the side or rear and if there's an aoe, avoid it if you can but if you can't get that positional it's okay it won't destroy your dps. When the potency for the non positional got buffed from 100 to 200, I giggled because it really wasn't needed. I've had no problems with this class since HW release, and I'm still pretty new to this game. It's a fun class to play, and this is rng based ability is not the hardest part of playing DRG right now.

What worries me most is that people complained about wheeling thrust so Square compromised and buffed the potency. Totally unnecessary in my opinion, but I can't complain about my class getting a little love. I'd say about now DRG and MNK are probably about where they're supposed to be, and judging from how the number of complaints from class to class, I'd say the good dragoons are out having fun rather than complaining about one rng based ability. Seriously, the class requires a little attention to play now, I'd be more worried about juggling botd with geirskogul if I were you because that's where things get complicated.

4th combos are pretty easy to handle with a bit of practice. It makes for a bit of a weird leveling experience but it's pretty meh.

Please don't lump all DRG in with the OP, most of us realize we are super well off (as are basically everyone except possibly BLM QoL change and maybe a tweak to address NIN TP)

Nah, I realize the majority of drg's are pretty fine right now. It's just the complaints about wheeling thrust are odd. I have more trouble finding ways to keep botd up in an annoying fight, I'd figure people would be complaining about that instead.

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Originally Posted by Ilyanat

Nah, I realize the majority of drg's are pretty fine right now. It's just the complaints about wheeling thrust are odd. I have more trouble finding ways to keep botd up in an annoying fight, I'd figure people would be complaining about that instead.

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That's just a "learn the fight" thing for DRGs, much as how MNK has had to know forever how to cheese uptime and BLM has to optimize their movement/positioning. It's basically now what separates a Great DRG from a merely good one.

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Originally Posted by spelley

4th combos are pretty easy to handle with a bit of practice.

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Nobody said anything about the 4th combo step being hard. 'oh this proc'd? better step 2 feet to the left. now i got the other one? two steps to the right i go'. I highly doubt anyone seriously thinks its hard. But when a big name game developer like SE goes and just copy/pastes one ability onto two buttons, that's just insultingly lazy design. And it's made even worse when there's actually people, though I have yet to find many actually in the game, who actively defend such laziness.