DPS for Alex Savage Turn 1 Final Boss?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

And here it's finally revealed that tanks are actually the kings of DPS, closely followed by White Mages. Enmity = DPS, so it makes sense, right? It doesn't sound any more crazy than what you're proposing here. Several classes actually have skills that reduce enmity, which makes the enmity meter a very poor substitute for a DPS meter.

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Guess we will have raid with 6 tanks and 2xWHMs! XD

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Guess we will have raid with 6 tanks and 2xWHMs! XD

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Yep, let's split it up 2 PLD 2 DRK 2 WAR for variety. Best DPS evar! :3

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Yep, let's split it up 2 PLD 2 DRK 2 WAR for variety. Best DPS evar! :3

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Not 6xWAR? WAR OP! ^_^

But super sereal :P A1 (S) will become a lot easier next week when the ilvl 200 weapons start to enter into the mix. As hardest part is pushing that DPS, mechanics are pretty simple to be fair. Was happy to get it cleared before next weeks reset.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

My thing is, who cares? Everyone knows what people are referring to. So why try to be the schmuck who tries to correct people when it clearly doesnt matter.

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I enjoy arguing semantics.

It gets peoples' panties in a bunch, which I find incredibly amusing. I mean, getting bent out of shape over semantics.

*giggles*

"ok guys we are hitting enrage but I can't see how that's possible since all our DPS are just trailing the full fending tank who is doing 300 DPS. We must have amazing DPS."

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

And here it's finally revealed that tanks are actually the kings of DPS, closely followed by White Mages. Enmity = DPS, so it makes sense, right? It doesn't sound any more crazy than what you're proposing here. Several classes actually have skills that reduce enmity, which makes the enmity meter a very poor substitute for a DPS meter.

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I was doing top DPS in a fight once, then I hit Shroud of Saints and it made my DPS plummet. :(

Just once I'd like someone who says "just use the hate meter to judge DPS" who then gets put in their place by pointing out how the hate meter tells you nothing about DPS, to respond and see what they say. Like, I am legitimately interested in what they think about that. Not so I can tell them how wrong they are (I'll let everyone else do that) but because I want to know if that's ever been thought of in their head. When I HAVE to pop quelling as BLM and am subsequently lower on the hate meter for a bit, I wonder if they actually think I'm low DPS.

Or like someone else brought up, SMN. SMN are almost NEVER on top of the hate meter. Between their DPS being split between them and their pet, and their damage not necessarily being all up front like a lot of other jobs, they're just lower on the meter. Actually what makes that interesting is when you see a SMN ahead of a DPS like DRG for example. If the SMN is ahead of them on the hate meter and the DRG hasn't died or used elusive jump, you know that DRG is bad.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

Just once I'd like someone who says "just use the hate meter to judge DPS" who then gets put in their place by pointing out how the hate meter tells you nothing about DPS, to respond and see what they say. Like, I am legitimately interested in what they think about that. Not so I can tell them how wrong they are (I'll let everyone else do that) but because I want to know if that's ever been thought of in their head. When I HAVE to pop quelling as BLM and am subsequently lower on the hate meter for a bit, I wonder if they actually think I'm low DPS.

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They don't think, they are reaching for excuses to not put in a parser and run away before adequately defending the indefensible. They actually don't care about DPS at all which is convenient for them because their own DPS is rubbish and want to shut down any attempt to uncover this.

Pity for them parsing is widespread and no one is banned for it lol, I guess they sound bitter because they will never escape the fact that people will judge their performance.

The old 'aggro = DPS' thing is particularly bad on this fight, because there are 2 bosses and a bunch of adds to deal with... What use is comparing your aggro against other party members when you aren't even attacking the same thing?

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Originally Posted by AxelDH

The old 'aggro = DPS' thing is particularly bad on this fight, because there are 2 bosses and a bunch of adds to deal with... What use is comparing your aggro against other party members when you aren't even attacking the same thing?

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Also skills like Quelling Strikes, Shadewalker and Smoke Screen affect enmity generation. Anyone who's making decisions on hate meter alone is very clueless.

My opener must absolutely suck, because I don't even get an enmity meter under my name for the first ten seconds with both Quelling and Smoke active.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Melee place resin like in first phase, we all stack on one side of the boss for first resin so melee can still smack Oppressor and keeping resin out of the way.



Even without hitting adds to pad Faust is a training dummy as BLMs can dont have to move out of pinnochio and BRDS can WM from a static point for 100% of the fight. (Yes I call it Pinocchio :P )

No, you can't. Ever heard of Quelling strikes and Elusive jump? 1 Person doing 100 DPS less than they should be to beat the enrage is not going to show either. Also the enmity bar shows the enmity at that time, it fluctuates up and down between spike and constant damage. It won't show the average over the fight which is what parsers do. It won't show you if someone has any misses on the boss which can cut down on average DPS, especially for combo classes like MNK and DRG.

If you clear content when it has echo and over gearing it, it is less important for parsers as you get carried by echo. Especially with FCoB. But when it's bleeding edge and you are the minimum ilvl then every point of DPS counts to get the clear.

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My point wasn't that the hate meter is your "parser' like you are trying to make it sound. My point is, if you are failing DPS checks in the game, no parser is going to make it easier or help you clear it. The simple fact you are failing the DPS check in itself is your gauge of whether or not your groups DPS is up to snuff. If you fail a DPS check once, maybe 2 more times, you know the group isn't capable and its time to reform. This attitude that a parser is "necessary" is actually kind of hilarious to me. So obvious you all came from WoW.

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Originally Posted by melisande

My point wasn't that the hate meter is your "parser' like you are trying to make it sound. My point is, if you are failing DPS checks in the game, no parser is going to make it easier or help you clear it. The simple fact you are failing the DPS check in itself is your gauge of whether or not your groups DPS is up to snuff. If you fail a DPS check once, maybe 2 more times, you know the group isn't capable and its time to reform. This attitude that a parser is "necessary" is actually kind of hilarious to me. So obvious you all came from WoW.

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That's cute. Ignorance is bliss, right?
You fail with a group, so you move on to another, and that's your answer?
Without ever knowing your performance, who was doing well and who wasn't.

Maybe you're the one who is doing badly. You wouldn't even know.
You'd just move from group to group bringing people down, till you find some people awesome enough to carry you through content.

Or maybe you're amazing, and that's great.
But you can always be better. And testing different rotation changes and how they affect your dps isn't possible without numbers behind it.

And that reform idea doesn't fly if you're in a static.
In that case, you're with a set amount of people and you need to evaluate everyone and see what can be done to bring everyone up to par for the content you're pushing.
Unless you just give up on everything till you can over-gear it considerably.

That's your prerogative, but not everyone gives up at the sign of failure.
Some do whatever they can to get ahead, from World First crazy strats to even the everyday statics that are trying to push the start of Savage now.

We're all trying to do our best and have fun, parsers don't conflict with that.
It's just numbers and information to have a baseline on analyzing your own performance as well as other information over the course of the encounter.

It's not "necessary".
It's just avoids the situation that people aren't aware of their own performance when in a party.
It allows people to improve.

And if you don't know how a parser can help make it easier to clear by using it to improve yourself, that's on you.
That's expected if you're the type of person that rage-quits after 2 wipes anyway.

/10characters

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

That's cute. Ignorance is bliss, right?
You fail with a group, so you move on to another, and that's your answer?
Without ever knowing your performance, who was doing well and who wasn't.

Maybe you're the one who is doing badly. You wouldn't even know.
You'd just move from group to group bringing people down, till you find some people awesome enough to carry you through content.

Or maybe you're amazing, and that's great.
But you can always be better. And testing different rotation changes and how they affect your dps isn't possible without numbers behind it.

And that reform idea doesn't fly if you're in a static.
In that case, you're with a set amount of people and you need to evaluate everyone and see what can be done to bring everyone up to par for the content you're pushing.
Unless you just give up on everything till you can over-gear it considerably.

That's your prerogative, but not everyone gives up at the sign of failure.
Some does whatever they can to get ahead, from World First crazy strats to even the everyday statics that are trying to push the start of Savage now.

We're all trying to do our best and have fun, parsers don't conflict with that.
It's just numbers and information to have a baseline on analyzing your own performance as well as other information over the course of the encounter.

It's not "necessary".
It's just avoids the situation that people aren't aware of their own performance when in a party.
It allows people to improve.

And if you don't know how a parser can help make it easier to clear by using it to improve yourself, that's on you.
That's expected if you're the type of person that rage-quits after 2 wipes anyway.

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Again, if you aren't logical enough to be able to notice that your rotation could use some tinkering, and need a third party tool to tell you you are doing an inefficient rotation to "improve" your own performance, I find that logic a bit silly, and irritating at the same time. You can feel if you are rotating correctly, and no parser will help you figure out what exactly you are doing wrong. Learn your jobs rotation, perfectly, have Ilvl appropriate gear on, an understanding of the mechanics, and you will clear. No 3rd party necessary. If the game felt like we needed to measure our numbers they would have included a parser, alas they did not, because it is unnecessary, and one can master their own rotation by *playing the game*.

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Originally Posted by melisande

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You seem to be confusing "necessary" with "helpful." I don't think anyone here is saying parsers are an absolute necessity, but when you need to reach X dps, and you aren't, it's helpful for obvious reasons to know why you aren't and by exactly how much.

Generally people doing A1S know their rotation. If you're tinkering with your rotation in savage, then that's a problem. But there are a lot of little things you can do for specific fights to optimize your dps a bit more.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Again, if you aren't logical enough to be able to notice that your rotation could use some tinkering, and need a third party tool to tell you you are doing an inefficient rotation to "improve" your own performance, I find that logic a bit silly, and irritating at the same time. You can feel if you are rotating correctly, and no parser will help you figure out what exactly you are doing wrong. Learn your jobs rotation, perfectly, have Ilvl appropriate gear on, an understanding of the mechanics, and you will clear. No 3rd party necessary. If the game felt like we needed to measure our numbers they would have included a parser, alas they did not, because it is unnecessary, and one can master their own rotation by *playing the game*.

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more information is better for analytical purposes.
and they did not include a parser not because it's unnecessary, but to avoid bullying with it.

numbers won't help with your rotation, true.
But others can help you when knowing your numbers are sub-optimal for your gear.

which is better in the long run?
helping people to improve and get better, or your reform mentality that leaves those who are under performing stranded?

PS: not everyone knows the perfect rotation simply by *playing the game*

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Originally Posted by melisande

Again, if you aren't logical enough to be able to notice that your rotation could use some tinkering, and need a third party tool to tell you you are doing an inefficient rotation to "improve" your own performance, I find that logic a bit silly, and irritating at the same time. You can feel if you are rotating correctly, and no parser will help you figure out what exactly you are doing wrong. Learn your jobs rotation, perfectly, have Ilvl appropriate gear on, an understanding of the mechanics, and you will clear. No 3rd party necessary. If the game felt like we needed to measure our numbers they would have included a parser, alas they did not, because it is unnecessary, and one can master their own rotation by *playing the game*.

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That's silly, you can't know your numbers without a parser.
If you 'feel' you are rotating correctly, a parser can tell you if you are or aren't.
If you think it can't tell you what you're doing wrong, you don't know how to use one.

If you tinker with your rotation to add slight dps changes, you won't know if you gained or lost dps.
You'd only see a difference if you either completely messed up or did fine. You can't fine tune without a parser.
You will never perfect your job without a reference.
At least not as a dps, without knowing your actual...you know...DPS.
No matter how 'logical' you are.

You can get by though. So yes, it's not necessary.
But many don't realize they're doing poorly because they don't know their dps.
Or are you saying those people would always be bad when presented with information that they could analyze to become better?
Some will, while some will be able to use it and improve.

Parsers don't do anything but compile and present information about the fight.
If you don't know how to use that to improve your attempts and progress in a fight or as a player, then that's something to learn as well.
You don't need to, but if you want to better yourself you would be handicapped to stay ignorant of that kind of information.

3rd party or not. Since honestly, all that information that the parser gives is from the in-game combat log.
Technically it's not doing anything you couldn't do yourself. But realistically, that information isn't readable unless you take forever compiling it yourself.

Parsers only compute information we're already given to give a summary we can look back on.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Again, if you aren't logical enough to be able to notice that your rotation could use some tinkering, and need a third party tool to tell you you are doing an inefficient rotation to "improve" your own performance, I find that logic a bit silly, and irritating at the same time.

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Rotation tinkering that people do at high levels are usually fight specific since people know their base rotation.

It's not about logic when it comes to such nuances.
Logic while involving causation, still is stronger with any given information to back it.

Parsers give information, knowing your dps could improve due to information is derived from a parser is more logical than thinking so because it can be inferred.

You're talking about is intuition.
Any high level adjustments to improve dps beyond those that can be inferred from base potencies isn't going to be as logically inferred without the information to back it.
At that point you're just trusting your feelings, not logic.

That's fine, but don't confuse the two.
You may say "hey, I should use all my CDs and oGCDs for the Spine" and that's a logical conclusion, sure.
But when fights have running phases and you need to analyze how your dps is affected throughout multiple dps portions, you will need more information to squeeze out the most you can.

Logic is always stronger with more information.
It doesn't matter how innately you can infer something. Knowledge is knowledge, no matter how you get it.

And inferring things means there's a margin of error. And in this case, you won't know those error margins since you aren't the sole dps factor (hence the results are skewed with other contributors and RNG).

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Originally Posted by melisande

So obvious you all came from WoW.

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I love that is meant to be an insult or something. What's the better game to come from, XI? Hahaha.

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Originally Posted by melisande

My point wasn't that the hate meter is your "parser' like you are trying to make it sound. My point is, if you are failing DPS checks in the game, no parser is going to make it easier or help you clear it. The simple fact you are failing the DPS check in itself is your gauge of whether or not your groups DPS is up to snuff. If you fail a DPS check once, maybe 2 more times, you know the group isn't capable and its time to reform. This attitude that a parser is "necessary" is actually kind of hilarious to me. So obvious you all came from WoW.

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Then what was your point in mentioning the enmity meter? Cause you kinda go off subject after that.

As far as parsers not making it easier to meet a DPS check, you're dead wrong. Given the fact that we recently got a whole slew of new skills, it's not unthinkable that some people don't know their ideal rotation yet. Given that we're going into new encounters with new rotations... yeah. You may know that your group's DPS is not up to snuff, but how do you find out who is lagging behind? Is it one person in particular that needs to tweak their rotation or their general strategy, or are all 4 of your DPS scrubs that need to git gud? We've already pointed out that the enmity meter makes a shoddy DPS meter, so that leaves you with actual DPS meters as the tool of choice. You parse the encounter, you share the results with your static. Whoever is lagging behind then knows that they may need to research rotation or tweak gear. Sometimes it's something as simple as where to stand.

Some of us actually care to fix the problems with our group instead of shucking it off and replacing it wholesale. People actually stick together in long-term groups over multiple raids! Shocking, I know. Judging by your posts, you aren't in a static. A lot of us posting about this are. I know I've been with my static for almost a year now. You don't just toss that aside like yesterday's underwear just because you aren't making a single DPS check. It's a lot more constructive to figure out what the problem is and fix it. That's kinda what raiding is about - solving problems. Even in a PF group, if it's a single weak link, why not either strengthen or replace that single link instead of disbanding and reforming over and over and over? This is why statics clear faster in general.

In any case, it's not a matter of "necessary". It's a matter of "does it help?"

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

I love that is meant to be an insult or something. What's the better game to come from, XI? Hahaha.

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I'd take it as a compliment. She obviously doesn't raid anyway.

while P1 dps is important , in P2 i as bard can get wayyy more dps keeping both bosses doted (same goes for SMN) ,so a Party with BRD SMN can gain dps in p2 , other party ex: MCH + BLM wont

May also be note to other jobs as well but i find for p1 the break off for applying dots is 2 gcd after the adds spawn for drg, if you havent already started your ct combo before that skip it that cycle and double up on ft combo. The three tics to make ct combo more potent will not go off before the copy hp at that point. The burst is temporarilly more important than the sustaint in that point of the fight.

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Originally Posted by melisande

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Then why even talk about the emnity meter at all? And reform, especially in the case of a static? Oh that's funny.

Coming from a long time raider, a DPS meter is a diagnostic tool. As opposed to generalizing your group's DPS and calling it quits, you can pin point what needs to be worked on, and you can see how your DPS changes through an encounter. Sure, a person can do well without one, but with numbers comes with, fine tuning, more informed players, and it can also spur others to perform better. Not everyone will perform better, but it's a tool, not a detriment. And telling us we "came from WoW" isn't an insult, but if you think it is, you can continue with that line of thought.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

while P1 dps is important , in P2 i as bard can get wayyy more dps keeping both bosses doted (same goes for SMN) ,so a Party with BRD SMN can gain dps in p2 , other party ex: MCH + BLM wont

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The highest bard and mcn parses look identical so far though...probably to do with the fact mcn gcd procs have no cast bar. Must be insanely useful when kiting adds/resins.

in P1, the 2 adds that come out shortly before the split occurs- can the OT take both leaving the other DPS to burn the opresser lower before the split?

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Originally Posted by SythSynner

Alexander has Turns? Hmm, I swore it was FLOORS. Not sure when people will wrap that around their thick skulls.

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Around the time when people realize that they're collecting Tomestones, not Tombstones.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

while P1 dps is important , in P2 i as bard can get wayyy more dps keeping both bosses doted (same goes for SMN) ,so a Party with BRD SMN can gain dps in p2 , other party ex: MCH + BLM wont

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BLM gains the benefits of multidot with Thundercould on two targets.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Around the time when people realize that they're collecting Tomestones, not Tombstones.

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Grave robbers everywhere.

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Originally Posted by repoe

in P1, the 2 adds that come out shortly before the split occurs- can the OT take both leaving the other DPS to burn the opresser lower before the split?

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Adds put a debuff at 6 stacks u get mini , poison pools help here since dmg and snare the adds.

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Originally Posted by repoe

in P1, the 2 adds that come out shortly before the split occurs- can the OT take both leaving the other DPS to burn the opresser lower before the split?

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What we do is kill the both adds under Opressors hitbox. That way theres no downtime on anyones DPS. Also its our OT who picks up both.

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Originally Posted by melisande

So obvious you all came from WoW.

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I came from EQ. Try again.

Yes parser is going to help you. Is someone getting misses because their accuracy isnt capped which can easily be fixed by them using accuracy food instead of what they are using, or swap some gear around. Is that melee who usually pulls x DPS only pulling Y, and why? No, on progression it does not take 2 or 3 fails to see you cannot make it. If you ever do progression and not get carried you know that DPS naturally increases as players get more comfortable with mechanics and learn through practice when it is optimal to use DPS cooldowns. If there are multiple phases, that increases exponentially.

Do you really think statics take 2 or 3 tries on new raid content, then if they fail they split and make a new static? First hours are spent learning and practicing mechanics and getting them down, then when youhave them down from numerous (not 2 or 3, that is retarded) then you start to push for the kill. If you are hitting enrage you look up information on the parser where the team can improve. If it's bleeding edge and you know all 4 DPS are pushing to the max of their gear, you look at other ways to push it. When is it safe for healers to DPS? The tanks getting crafted Vit accs with STR melds to push it to beat the enrage timer and get the kill. Of course when gear starts to distribute, from tomestones, next week for example, floor 1 Savage DPS check will be easier to beat due to ilvl 200 weapons, and drops from the actual raids previous bosses that your party was able to kill.

You make it obvious you are talking from when you are over geared for the content or Echo has been applied. NOT from bleeding edge progression experience.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Then what was your point in mentioning the enmity meter? Cause you kinda go off subject after that.

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Also another important factor. We don't know the new stat weights. We know DET has been standardized which throws out the previous lvl 50 stat weights with that for a start. How effective is SKS for x class? Is crit better for MNKs than DET now? Until the calculations are done all we can do is try it out, stack x secondary. check results. switch to Y secondary, chack and compare. If SKS is optimal for MNK for example, your floating damage hits would be lower than stacking DET, but the overall DPS may be higher, something that you cannot check without outside assistance.

Just one problem with parsers at the moment, with DOTs not registering int he combat log, and descrepencies that do arise between 2 people parsing the same fight using the same program we do not know how accurate they are without an official parser. We can only use them as a guide, not a 100% accurate assesment.

Also the anti-parsers. It was through players using 3rd party parsers that they were able to spot the problems with certain jobs in performance which led to them recieving buffs. NIN, DRG for 2. Without 3rd party parsers those problems may not have been noticed.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

They don't think, they are reaching for excuses to not put in a parser and run away before adequately defending the indefensible. They actually don't care about DPS at all which is convenient for them because their own DPS is rubbish and want to shut down any attempt to uncover this.

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I did a Sohm Al on my BRD yesterday in DF. Got paired with a BLM. Now I havn't used BRD since I switched to MNK after clearing First coil. Many, many updates ago :P So I'm mainly in 120 gear I grabbed with poetics when HW came out, mainly levelling BRD fro my retainer to level up, so 100% out of practice on it, just a bit from FATEs and Duck Vigil runs for XP. So was with this BLM, I had Foe Req up as much as I could for every pull. My DPS was more than double the BLMs, his rotation was fire 3 till empty, blizzard 3 till full then back to fire 3. When I gave him some tips about his rotation, was like talking to a brick wall, as he didnt change at all. With a parser he would have proof in his face that he was playing terrible.

Or he would be whining on the forums that "BRD is OP, they do more than twice BLMs damage!" XD

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Or he would be whining on the forums that "BRD is OP, they do more than twice BLMs damage!" XD

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Probably this xD

These questions and threads about DPS wouldn't devolve in to a constant stream of complaints and arguments if people wouldn't act like complete assholes over it. Yes, there are people who will always "play how they want" and they'll always be terrible at their job because they refuse to change in a way that would make them more efficient. However, becoming overly offensive to them does absolutely nothing, and it will only make them grip on to their bad habits because that's pretty much human nature. So, if just jump all over someone right off the bat, they're going to ignore you. They probably even know your right, but you extended your hand with a clenched fist and they're going to disregard any kind of advice or help you try to give them.

If it's really bothering you then vote to have them removed or leave the party. You don't have to hold their hand, but you also shouldn't try to break it.