Meracydia/Miqo'te/Azys La speculations (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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I completly agree with you about the Sun part, makes indeed alot of sense, about the Third astral era part, im sorry, for some reason i always thought it would have been in that time that the allagans fell, i dont know why, but ive re-read the cutcenes now and yeah it makes alot more sense now

In any case it would seem to have rise in the third astral, changed from theocracy to technology in the end of the fourth astral, creating the calamity that made the 4th umbral

About the Qarn-belhadia-allagan relation, i thought Qarn had Belh'adian roots, and now, with the exact same simbols and architecture, Qarn and azys la old buildings are indeed not that difrent, so it could (completly speculating, specially because again i dont know the timings ) After the Allagan fall, wouldn't it be possible that the remaining ones kept worshiping Azeyma and the sun ? I never thouhgt of a relation between the allagan and qarn , but it would seem to be SOMETHING there.

You're forgetting that Syrcus Tower was actually quite recent, one of if not the last thing the Allagans built before the second reign of Xande. The difference in architecture between the Tower and Dalamud is less a difference of advancement, and more a matter of aesthetics, as the former was meant to be visited by the public, while the latter is a military facility with little use for fancy trimmings.

While the dimmer lighting makes it harder to make out, if you take time to compare the architecture of the Fractal Continuum to the architecture in Syrcus Tower, there are actually far more similarities than you'd think. Enough that they could easily be contemporary, even though the Contunuum feels much newer due to it's location in Azys Lla.

http://i.imgur.com/UYI2rGu.png

http://i.imgur.com/774jw6h.png

http://i.imgur.com/Sr5bM6z.png

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

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I thought that too, at the begining I thought that Qarn was the name of a temple for azeyma, made it by the belhadia. But if you read on the comments on the first pages, the people there are saing with strong evidence that Qarn was there before the belhadians, they used those ruins to recontruct. I dont know if the azeyma symbols were already there or where rbought by the belhadians, thst what people is discussing right now. But givven the amaising connection with the ruins on Qarn and the ones on Azys la, we can least can see how ancient was there. Thast why I have this 2 theorys, or Qarn was a possible proto allagan ( before the allag empire was made ) and second that Qarn, like egypt or sumeria, was one of the very first and most ancient civilisations, probably, during the 1st astral era.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Your comment

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No you total wrong, Crystal tower, LoA/ ST was made right after Xande's first dead, as a monument/castle.
Much later on Xande's secong reing, he remade ST, chaging what it was original on a facility to collect sun enery with Dalamud as a satelite.

On the only thing we agree is that yes the difference is not only age/technology buit also a matter of aesthetics, but only that.
But I already said the same of what you said on comment of the page 4 xd

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

No you total wrong, Crystal tower, LoA/ ST was made right after Xande's first dead, as a monument/castle.

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XIVDB is borked right now, so I can't pull out the script (and need to step out for a while anyways so can't load up the cutscene), but I'm pretty sure Doga and Unei mentioned that the tower was built at the height of Allagan power, long after the first Xande's reign, but was only in use for the span of a few generations before the decline of the empire became properly apparent and Xande was resurrected as a countermeasure.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

XIVDB is borked right now, so I can't pull out the script (and need to step out for a while anyways so can't load up the cutscene), but I'm pretty sure Doga and Unei mentioned that the tower was built at the height of Allagan power, long after the first Xande's reign, but was only in use for the span of a few generations before the decline of the empire became properly apparent and Xande was resurrected as a countermeasure.

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It was built as a sign of the greatness from allagans. To show their mighty and power. That doesnt mean when it was.
But yes I'm sure it was made after Xande's first dead, he was the founding father of the empire of coruse.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

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that is right, its one of the cutcenes i have just read to make my statements. It is mentioned that it was a instrument to create energy and a ''beacon of hope and prosperity'' of allagan golden age, never read completly about the memorial for Xande. Only thing i seen as relation is that Amon resurected xande and he took the throne again.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

No extra information whatsoever. Looks like it's a simple Localization goofup after all.

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Mmm, well, things happen when you're working 300 hour months. This'll be corrected to Third Astral Era in 3.06. Apologies for the confusion!

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

It was built as a sign of the greatness from allagans. To show their mighty and power. That doesnt mean when it was.
But yes I'm sure it was made after Xande's first dead, he was the founding father of the empire of coruse.

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You're getting the towers origins mixed up with xande's. Xande was the first allagan emperor who was resurrected using the crystal towers energy by amon in an attempt to keep Allag in power. Since xande was the first and likely seen as the most successful emperor Amon figured reviving him could save allag.

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

Mmm, well, things happen when you're working 300 hour months. This'll be corrected to Third Astral Era in 3.06. Apologies for the confusion!

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Well, then I'm happy to have (for once) been able to effect some small positive change! Keep up the good work!

There was no anger from Grayve, just curiosity. I guess since I never finished FF12, which I assume Decsh is from, I don't see the connection. And I was never a fan of the FFs that focused on fated legacies.

To bad it was an error in localization. I was hoping that bit about the 4th astral was a new clue. Was fun to think I found something new, oh well.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

There was no anger from Grayve, just curiosity. I guess since I never finished FF12, which I assume Decsh is from, I don't see the connection. And I was never a fan of the FFs that focused on fated legacies.

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I had a longer response to this, but it's better left to the blogosphere. The name "Salina" is specifically connected to the character Desch in Final Fantasy III, and her name being dropped in that final cutscene is meant to confirm that the laundry list of superficial similarities (memories, self-sacrifice, destiny, a tower, etc.) were intended to make G'raha into a surprise parallel to Desch. The analogy is incomplete in many ways, but it is the intent behind his character.

(I'm also not big on fated, inherited legacies, which is why I'd like to see G'raha given his own conclusion, but that's neither here nor there.)

Aha, three was also before my time, though I think there is a remake somewhere? As if I had time for that...

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

You're getting the towers origins mixed up with xande's. Xande was the first allagan emperor who was resurrected using the crystal towers energy by amon in an attempt to keep Allag in power. Since xande was the first and likely seen as the most successful emperor Amon figured reviving him could save allag.

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So? You are not proving nothing with that. Read better my comment before writting that xD
Does anything of what I said, means that what you said on wrong? No, I perfeclty knew why Xande was resurrected on the first place. But all what I said has no relation whatsoever with your comment

Being built as a monument for Xandes glory =/= being built to create energy.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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CT is basically a giant energy cell. It pulls in power from the sun, and later Dalamund, and the converts and transfers it to the Allagan people for use in everyday life. Sort of like Tesla's wireless energy system. Without the towers ability to pull in, convert and transfer energy the Allagans would not have been able to be as advanced as they were. While it was used as a monument to Allagans power that is not its main purpose. CTs use as an energy cell started before Xande's second reign or else a lot of lore doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

CT is basically a giant energy cell. It pulls in power from the sun, and later Dalamund, and the converts and transfers it to the Allagan people for use in everyday life. Sort of like Tesla's wireless energy system. Without the towers ability to pull in, convert and transfer energy the Allagans would not have been able to be as advanced as they were. While it was used as a monument to Allagans power that is not its main purpose. CTs use as an energy cell started before Xande's second reign or else a lot of lore doesn't make sense.

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LOl I knew that already xD
You guys understand that CT was changed during Xande's second reing?

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

Being built as a monument for Xandes glory =/= being built to create energy.

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Was built for both reasons.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

LOl I knew that already xD
You guys understand that CT was changed during Xande's second reing?

Was built for both reasons.

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Except that all any lore says is that it was closed to the public. While yes that means they were doing something they didn't want the average citizen to know, such as the mass power gathering and clone sacrifices, that doesn't mean the actual structure was changed.

Do you have a source for it being a monument to Xande?

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Except that all any lore says is that it was closed to the public. While yes that means they were doing something they didn't want the average citizen to know, such as the mass power gathering and clone sacrifices, that doesn't mean the actual structure was changed.

Do you have a source for it being a monument to Xande?

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Unei and Doga explicit said why the tower was original made for, and that it was chnaged to a facility during Xande's second reing

Not a momument to honor hi, that was not the main purpose. But yes after the died and all he achieve, Ct was made to show the mighty of the allagans

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Unei and Doga explicit said why the tower was original made for, and that it was chnaged to a facility during Xande's second reing

Not a momument to honor hi, that was not the main purpose. But yes after the died and all he achieve, Ct was made to show the mighty of the allagans

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Except that the energy the tower took in was used to resurrect Xande. CT was an energy converting facility far before Xande's second reign. Xande was not resurrected until the Allagan empire began to decline.

It was made as a power plant but was used afterwards to show the might of Allagan technology. It's like the Hoover dam. The Hoover dam was built for a functional purpose but ended up also being a symbol of American work ethic and prosperity.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Except that the energy the tower took in was used to resurrect Xande. CT was an energy converting facility far before Xande's second reign. Xande was not resurrected until the Allagan empire began to decline.

It was made as a power plant but was used afterwards to show the might of Allagan technology. It's like the Hoover dam. The Hoover dam was built for a functional purpose but ended up also being a symbol of American work ethic and prosperity.

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Look the story again, The said expclitiy that Xande ( once he has resurrected ) he order to change CT into a facility to gran all the energy he could, using Dalamud as a satellite. Is on the crystal tower story

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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(got the idea wrong, but its now fixed)

Syrcus tower quest, cutcene 2 does specificly say that the CT was built as a power plant, but was seen as monument for the zenith of Allag prosperity

, but when the downfall started, Amon resurected Xande, When xande was back he turned into darkness, but to seek such power was needed lots of Aether so he increased CT power plant into a solely Aetherical research facility

- says Unei (not the exact words ) but she actually says it.

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

Syrcus tower quest, cutcene 2 does specificly say that the CT was built as a pride monument, but when the downfall started, Amon resurected Xande, When xande was back he turned into darkness, but to seek such power was needed lots of Aether so he turned CT into a Aetherical research facility

- says Unei (not the exact words ) but she actually says it.

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Then, I was right all along XD

People should read more, stop skipping cutesenes and making wrong argumenents

Well your way to expose the arguments wasn't the most correct althou what you said was right. But if you want to be exact, it was not a monument for Xande memory either.

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

Well your way to expose the arguments wasn't the most correct althou what you said was right. But if you want to be exact, it was not a monument for Xande memory either.

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What I tried to said it was built after Xande's death to as a pride monument, but wasnt its main purpose to that was a monument for Xande.
But makes sense, since he was the first emperor, and he, I guess, he did lots of achivements that show the mighty of the allags.

A good example is the Arc of Triounphe. Is a pride monument for France, and was built by order of Emperor Napoleon. But the purpose was not him, only to show the pride of France.
Great monuments of a country are most of the time made after great and important figure of that country dieds.

PD: I dont think my arguments are wrong exposed, you yourself agreed with me in couple things. What happens is that people are use to skip cutescenes to play the game faster withouth enjpying the history that it has, and when they are interested on entering to the lore and expose their opinions, they just end to say wrong comments. Event so there are people who said wrong comments but they cant simply accept that they said, could be wrong, keeping insting, istead of cheking into the cutescenes to see what they could missed.

Here is the relevant word for word language from the cut scenes.

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Originally Posted by Unei

The Allagan Empire reached its zenith long before our kind came into being.
In that glorious age, the Crystal Tower stood tall as the symbol of Allagan pride. Parents took their children there, that they might learn how the nigh limitless energy it produced brought prosperity to the whole empire.

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Originally Posted by Doga

That prosperity, however, bred decadence, and the empire began to show signs of stagnation. This decline was made all the more rapid for want of strong leadership.
In a matter of generations, the Allagan civilization became a pale shadow of its former self. Its once gleaming cities fell into disrepair, and its frontier lands were given over to wilderness.

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Originally Posted by Unei

Lamenting the pitiful state of affairs, one technologist made it his mission to restore Allag to greatness.
Amon was his name, and he believed that the ailing empire wanted for but a potent ruler. And none was more potent than its founding father, whom he sought to resurrect.

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Originally Posted by G'raha Tia

The founding father? You cannot mean Emperor Xande!?

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Originally Posted by Unei

None other. As part of his experiments, Amon created clones of the emperor's decedents. We are the products of that experiment – copies of Unei and Doga.

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Originally Posted by Rammbroes

Historical texts mention the reigns of two Allagan emperors named Xande.
It was commonly believed that the second was the namesake of the first. After all, such a custom is not uncommon among royalty and commoners alike. To think that the two were in fact one and the same.

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Originally Posted by Unei

Aye, Xande returned from the grave and assumed his throne once more. And true to Amon's prediction, the emperor restored his realm to the glory it once knew. Would that he could have been satisfied with that...

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Originally Posted by Doga

In his previous live, the emperor desired to bring the entire world under Allagan dominion - an ambition that ultimately went unfulfilled. Having been granted a second chance, he was determined to succeed.
Realizing that he needed more power to wage his war of conquest, Xande turned his sights towards a forbidden source: darkness. In order to learn how to harness this power, he converted the Crystal Tower into a restricted research facility.

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I've bolded the most important parts.

As shown in these quotes, while CT was a symbol of pride it was NOT built as a monument. It was built for the night limitless energy it produced. It BECAME a symbol of pride due to the prosperity it brought to the civilization. It is not like the Arc de Triomphe but like the Hoover Dam as I already said. It shows the pinnacle of their advancement. It was pride in their accomplishments not a monument to a person.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Except that the energy the tower took in was used to resurrect Xande. CT was an energy converting facility far before Xande's second reign. Xande was not resurrected until the Allagan empire began to decline.

It was made as a power plant but was used afterwards to show the might of Allagan technology. It's like the Hoover dam. The Hoover dam was built for a functional purpose but ended up also being a symbol of American work ethic and prosperity.

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You yourself said that the tower was change before Xande's resurrection, do you understand the meaning of your own words?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

You yourself said that the tower was change before Xande's resurrection, do you understand the meaning of your own words?

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What? No I didn't. I said that CT was a source of energy for all of the Allagan empire. It was not a monument but a power plant. Amon used the power from it to resurrect Xande and it was changed when Xande was alive. I never said anything different.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

What? No I didn't. I said that CT was a source of energy for all of the Allagan empire. It was not a monument but a power plant. Amon used the power from it to resurrect Xande and it was changed when Xande was alive. I never said anything different.

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Read your own comments sir, first you said something that didnt make sense then you start saing something completly diferent

"In that glorious age, the Crystal Tower stood tall as the symbol of Allagan pride" YES A MONUMENT. My example was exacly the same, the only difference is that the arc of triounphe doesnt collect sun energy.

looks like i keep reading the cutcenes wrong lol. Im sorry and defenetly overlooked that part. So afterall the crytal towers purpose was to produce energy.
But while it did that, it was a symbol of prosperity, hence why it was open to public.

When Xande came back, he closed it. Turning into mostly only a power plant. They wanted more and more energy to feed the darkness, that when they destroyed pretty much the meracydians and caged bahamuth in dalamud, they tossed it in the skyes, producing more than before.

but as it was not enough, they overcharged ir somehow and created the blast, the earthquake of the 4th umbral era, where allagan empire literally sank into the ground at some points. Then amon decided to stop the towe from sinking doing that from before etc...

wich means CT wasn't built neither as a monument but yes as a power plant. and the change AFTER xande was only to produce MORE energy.

Thank you Arixtotle

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

the miracle xD

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On the last chapter aka WoD, we learn that there was a mazzive revolution responding beacuse of Xande's madness, in his desesperation he try to use that power to end the rebellion only to destroy everything and starting the 4th umbral calamity

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Read your own comments sir, first you said something that didnt make sense then you start saing something completly diferent

"In that glorious age, the Crystal Tower stood tall as the symbol of Allagan pride" YES A MONUMENT. My example was exacly the same, the only difference is that the arc of triounphe doesnt collect sun energy.

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Here's the issue. You're saying it was BUILT as a monument while I'm saying it BECAME a monument. Again, like the Hoover dam not the Arc de Triomphe.

I also never said anything different. My argument on change is that it was not changed STRUCTURALLY. It's purpose was what changed. It went from a power plant to a research facility. This entire thing started with a discussion on the difference between the Allagan structures with you postulating that what we see in ST is from the end of the Third Astral Era since you believe it was updated when Xande was using it as a research facility. I disagree. I don't think he would have changed the structures that much. What we see in ST is decadence pure and simple. It was meant to be viewed by the public almost as if it was a museum or education center on the energy collection. That's why it looks different from other Allagan structures.

What we really should be discussing is if the Labyrinth of the Ancients existed before Xande's second reign. I can't see a maze containing lava as being very welcoming to visitors.

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

looks like i keep reading the cutcenes wrong lol. Im sorry and defenetly overlooked that part. So afterall the crytal towers purpose was to produce energy.
But while it did that, it was a symbol of prosperity, hence why it was open to public.

When Xande came back, he closed it. Turning into mostly only a power plant. They wanted more and more energy to feed the darkness, that when they destroyed pretty much the meracydians and caged bahamuth in dalamud, they tossed it in the skyes, producing more than before.

but as it was not enough, they overcharged ir somehow and created the blast, the earthquake of the 4th umbral era, where allagan empire literally sank into the ground at some points. Then amon decided to stop the towe from sinking doing that from before etc...

wich means CT wasn't built neither as a monument but yes as a power plant. and the change AFTER xande was only to produce MORE energy.

Thank you Arixtotle

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The next part of the cut scene says this:

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Originally Posted by Doga

Wielding the power of darkness requires prodigious amounts of energy - energy that not even the Crystal Tower could produce. In order to augment the shortfall, Dalamud was created and launched into the heavens. On high it hung, gathering the sun's energy and channeling it to the tower below.
However, a miscalculation resulted in a surge of energy that escaped into the land. This triggered an earthquake of unprecedented violence - the calamity that ushered in the Fourth Umbral Era.
In the blinking of an eye, the mighty Allagan Empire was laid to waste.
Yet even as the Crystal Tower was sinking into the earth, the technologist Amon, now Emperor Xande's closest aide, invoked powerful magicks and halted the flow of time.
Every soul within the structure, the emperor included, was placed in a deep slumber. In that state they were to remain until the time was ripe to awaken.

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Methinks the miscalculation was either due to the Ascians or deliberate sabotage by the Princess who was trying to end Xande.

And you're welcome.

I'll have to go through the other cut scenes eventually to find out more.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

your comment

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Im done with you really, you cant see and accept your own mistakes. Ok think whatever you want, but the lore says something different and will never change to our side of the story. Live on denial.

Also if you guys did the 3rd chapter of the Crystal Tower's story we will discover the true origin of the calamity. There was a relovution that wanted to stop Xande's madness reing. Xande, desesperate, he tried to end the revolution using the power he had, but he provoded the ulbral calamity that ended the allan civilisation.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Im done with you really, you cant see and accept your own mistakes. Ok think whatever you want, but the lore says something different and will never change to our side of the story. Live on denial.

Also if you guys did the 3rd chapter of the Crystal Tower's story we will discover the true origin of the calamity. There was a relovution that wanted to stop Xande's madness reing. Xande, desesperate, he tried to end the revolution using the power he had, but he provoded the ulbral calamity that ended the allan civilisation.

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The issue is really that you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. You're misinterpreting it.

And no, I just posted the lore. It does not say something different. CT was built as a power plant NOT a monument.

I really have to ask, is English your first language? You don't seem to be getting the intricacies of it that well. This isn't a jab or insult. I'm just getting really confused on why you are interpreting things the way you are when it clearly says something different.

Also, him accessing the power due to a rebellion doesn't negate anything else. He miscalculated how much power the tower could hold and called too much.

So coming back to the topic, the ruins of Azys Lla actually seem to be allagan afterall? but if we assume that those structures are Allagan, that would also imply that qarn was also made by allagans

the architecture is the same, both praise Azeyma.

Could we take it as (if there is some proof of what era Qarn is originally from ) if we take qarn as somwehre 3rd astral era. wich by the end of it, Allagans left the theology and focused on technology, this ''disrespect'' for ruins would be a simbol of that, being qarn forgotten and other places lifted into the air.

OR the less likely hipothesis

The structures are from miqote's and their decendents, and qarn was made by them aswell, they could have been conquered by the Allagans at any time, or even pushed from meracydia to aldernard or even the other way around due to allagans

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

The issue is really that you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. You're misinterpreting it.

And no, I just posted the lore. It does not say something different. CT was built as a power plant NOT a monument.

I really have to ask, is English your first language? You don't seem to be getting the intricacies of it that well. This isn't a jab or insult. I'm just getting really confused on why you are interpreting things the way you are when it clearly says something different.

Also, him accessing the power due to a rebellion doesn't negate anything else. He miscalculated how much power the tower could hold and called too much.

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Was both a monument and a poweplant, thats what im tring to say sir.

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

So coming back to the topic, the ruins of Azys Lla actually seem to be allagan afterall? but if we assume that those structures are Allagan, that would also imply that qarn was also made by allagans

the architecture is the same, both praise Azeyma.

Could we take it as (if there is some proof of what era Qarn is originally from ) if we take qarn as somwehre 3rd astral era. wich by the end of it, Allagans left the theology and focused on technology, this ''disrespect'' for ruins would be a simbol of that, being qarn forgotten and other places lifted into the air.

OR the less likely hipothesis

The structures are from miqote's and their decendents, and qarn was made by them aswell, they could have been conquered by the Allagans at any time, or even pushed from meracydia to aldernard or even the other way around due to allagans

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For the information we have now I have 2 theories. Or it was a proto allagan civilisation ( before the rise of the empire ) or it was a very deep ancient civilisation, during the 1st or 2nd astral era
I'm kind not agreed do miqotes due to the thing that Qarn is on Eorzea and not Meracydia, but if it was no by the miqotes( go back to my 2 theories ) why the statues have a tail?

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Methinks the miscalculation was either due to the Ascians or deliberate sabotage by the Princess who was trying to end Xande.

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I mean, the entire thing emerged from the earth 5000 years later as a perfectly preserved calamity-in-a-bottle. There's only one group we can think of that plays that long a game, right?

/cue theme "The Twilight Zone"


But back on topic, the architecture in the Fractal Continuum is pretty close to the stuff in the Crystal Tower, perhaps owing to both of them serving as facilities for public use. The Continuum, though, I imagine as something closer to a museum on a military base, mainly meant for the families of the people working the main lab on the Flagship.

As for the temple, the smaller islands look like they were forcefully ripped out of the ground below, but was it an act of reverence, like preservation work done on an old cathedral in a modernized city, or desecration? It's understandable that the older architecture would not be as durable as the new stuff, especially without proper upkeep, so it's possible that it could have been a functional temple 5000 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

coment

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Yea can see a total degradation on those structures

Seeing that there's that giant "anchor" that seen as an instrument to may hold these island in place and is connected to the Flagship (like all similar anchors in azys lla) I am going to say that the "Cathedral" may have been a trophy to show off to Allagan Citizens

I have a feeling Tiamat was also a trophy to show off to the citizens as well. Capturing the brood-sister/ Consort of Bahamut/ Mother of Mercydian Dragons and summoner of Primal Bahamut is probably a big deal

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Originally Posted by Fenral

As for the temple, the smaller islands look like they were forcefully ripped out of the ground below, but was it an act of reverence, like preservation work done on an old cathedral in a modernized city, or desecration?

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I wouldn't think it was intentional either way. I mean, Azys Lla must've been raised into the sky during the late-middle 3rd AE. We're talking six or seven hundred years since the birth and expansion of their civilization, and probably at least five hundred years after the construction of Qarn, The Invisible City, Silent King, Allagan Sun Temple, etc. Now, we know they abandoned religion for scientific study - and I don't blame them, having actual gods on tap to fuel their research - but the simple fact that they made their own floating continent should scream "We really dgaf about our past. We're king shit now, it's full steam ahead."

So, my guess?

<BLAST OFF>

"Oops. Looks like we pulled up some of our old buildings."

"<shrug> Meh."