I dont get all the Bard hatred..

So you add to the vast amount of bard threads by complaining about the qq threads. The people who don't love bard anymore hate the new style that has been forced on them. It is a legit reason to qq. Nobody is saying the damage isn't there, or if they are, they should be mostly ignored.

I like the new changes now. sure , cast times aren't a thing to enjoy but it's a new chalenge, but iron jaws and emyreal arrow+barrage are just amazing. Honestly I think bard is in a fantastic position.

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Originally Posted by Elyl

My problem is the changed the WHOLE mechanic of how they play. They have been turned into casters. As far as parsing, prior to WM, I was usually at the top of the parse, with the exception of the players that played their toons correctly. I can probably easily figure out how to play with WM on, but my main question is why would I, when I can go play a BM and hit for more. They play the same now, except BM have a lot less OCD buffs to cast

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Did you really just try to use bad players and your lazyness to justify why WM isn't good enough? Dear god.

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Originally Posted by Elyl

My problem is the changed the WHOLE mechanic of how they play. They have been turned into casters. As far as parsing, prior to WM, I was usually at the top of the parse, with the exception of the players that played their toons correctly. I can probably easily figure out how to play with WM on, but my main question is why would I, when I can go play a BM and hit for more. They play the same now, except BM have a lot less OCD buffs to cast

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this guy.......

Bard is the best dps job in the game.

Sincerely yours,
Warrior

I dont think its the DPS but rather BRD's can't adapt/hate the new playstyle.

We complained at the release because it was almost useless to put WM on because the damage boost wasn't enough moreover we had to stop attacking to cast it.

It is much better now but it feels awkward as hell. Bard was my first love and switched to Monk because of static and was looking forward to play it again in HW. No matter how much I want to love this class I just can't bear playing it anymore. The only pleasure I got from this class is when I'm needed for my support but that's it. I don't enjoy having cast time. I don't enjoy to have a place for only 1 off cd in between my spells. I don't enjoy not being able to use procs like I used to. I kinda like iron jaws and empyreal arrow but that's it. Overall the job is totally different from what it used to be. Hell even when I do lvl 50 roulettes it feels awkward even if I played this class for 2 years...

On the other side Machinist is more enjoyable because you can plan movement with ammunition and hold your procs so you loose no dps while moving. Also only one spell from your main combo has a cast time and we have a tool to nullify cast times, what do we have as bard? Straight shot procs which are completely unreliable. That is WHY it feels awkward and everyone is complaining. DPS is not the issue unlike many people like the OP think. The problem is that they totally redesigned a class that's 2 years old so it can be similar to their new one but it feels like the devs rushed it and we end up with a job that just doesn't feel natural anymore.

The primary attribute from bards is to hit things while moving. But it's also a simple rotation with a lot of procs and buffs to manage. Everyone claimed how easy bard was to play but in fact there was only a bunch of good bards who were able to maintain high dps while singing buff, because the key behind playing bard was to manage your buffs and procs.

If you're giving up mobility you should get a compensation and not only dps unlike SE thought. The job NEEDS to feel the same at its core. When I got Gauss Barrel as machinist it felt awkward but with ammunitions and wildfire it didn't really feel different from what I've been used to during my leveling. SE literally managed to put cast time on this class without "breaking" it, but they didn't with bard.

We're struggling to use our buffs efficiently because we got so many, its hard to put them all in our rotation without loosing an extra weapon skill. We are not as mobile as machinist and the bloodletter mechanic is almost useless since you'll only use them when all of your buffs are off (or if you're singing) or when Empyreal Arrow is off. Something is wrong with the gameplay.

There have been many reasonable propositions made here and there. This thread is not about proposing tweaks, but bard definitely need some so the job feels natural again...

It's new. people don't like too much new or atleast adjusting in a pretty big way as with bard. the once free to walk wherever easy to play class has turned in something that lets you think a bit more about how to play. I think bard still has fantastic utility with the songs as well. Not sure if i'll level mine though.

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Originally Posted by HBLR

It's new. people don't like too much new or atleast adjusting in a pretty big way as with bard. the once free to walk wherever easy to play class has turned in something that lets you think a bit more about how to play. I think bard still has fantastic utility with the songs as well. Not sure if i'll level mine though.

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It also has something to do with what Crosiciento mentioned with the job not feeling the same at it's core. Post 50 you either get something that adds onto what you can already do and flows well (such as DRG's 4th hits or BLM having an extra layer of spell cycling through enochian) while still maintaining their core gameplay. Or you get new abilities that fill in your short comings, such as monks horrendous dps drop from complete downtime.

Bard's WM changes how the class plays without much consideration of it's 2.0 toolkit, it goes from fast-paced reactionary gameplay to a much slower paced one where you can't react to procs unless you purposely hold back your weaponskills by an extra split second. I feel like they had something going when they made empyreal arrow a weapon still that's off oGCD (basically an oGCD with cast times) and I felt that actually flows really nicely. It felt reminiscent of the fast placed 2.0 bard where you'd cycle through two attacks or more attacks in a GCD., nor did it really delay your weaponskills that much because the cast times aren' that long and you could immediately start another weaponskill right after (since empyreal doesn't trigger oGCD). Beyond that, it hasn't gotten any more complex/hard because it didn't add anything extra; we even get less buttons to push technically since ironjaws refreshes both our DoTs, and repelling shot is too cumbersome during WM...

Oh, and let's have some Warden's peas for lunch today. :l

One thing to note is that you must play Bard in a totally different mindset than your 2.0 counterpart. Heavy Shot is now your filler move, and both Bloodletter and Misery's End take higher priority. I.e: if you have ME, BL, and EA up, the order would be EA/ME/BL/Heavy Shot. It's more important for us to proc our Bloodletter over using our GCD, as the potential of it proc'ing over time is more important than the static 150 potency from HS. It may make some players go crazy seeing their GCDs on que for so long, but it's what we have to do to maximize our dps.

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Originally Posted by HBLR

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Not really. But again saying "I think bard still has fantastic utility" isn't the topic here. People who didn't level up bard to 60 think it's a matter of utility, damage or whatever. It's not. Both MCH and BRD are competitive, they got great utility and their damage is correct. But right now the job is just broken.

They have to give us more mobility under minuet. Heck I can't even know what went through SE's mind when they created minuet but didn't think about changing how River of Blood works with it. A simple tweak that come to my mind is to actually put Bloodletter/Rain of death on the global timer, increase it's potency (but decrease the potency on some other minuet spell like emp arrow) so we can still kinda move and we'll also be able to weave in our gcd more efficiently. I know SE wants us to loose our mobility for damage but as its stand we've got none while machinist directly have a control on it which is totally unfair. My "fix" is probably a bit too much since it can proc a lot, but in the end if it's on the global timer you'll have other spells to use to maintain your DPS, it needs to only be a filler and a spell you can use if you need to move.

Until then i'm not playing my bard again, looking forward to the tweaks.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

One thing to note is that you must play Bard in a totally different mindset than your 2.0 counterpart. Heavy Shot is now your filler move, and both Bloodletter and Misery's End take higher priority. I.e: if you have ME, BL, and EA up, the order would be EA/ME/BL/Heavy Shot. It's more important for us to proc our Bloodletter over using our GCD, as the potential of it proc'ing over time is more important than the static 150 potency from HS. It may make some players go crazy seeing their GCDs on que for so long, but it's what we have to do to maximize our dps.

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You mean like how it was in 2.0? The priority list hasn't changed at all, it's the flow/execution and the fragmented playstyle that puts me off.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Not really. But again saying "I think bard still has fantastic utility" isn't the topic here. People who didn't level up bard to 60 think it's a matter of utility, damage or whatever. It's not...

...They have to give us more mobility under minuet....

...Until then i'm not playing my bard again, looking forward to the tweaks.

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I can safely say, no one cares if people don't like that you can't run around while doing max damage. Bards are still very mobile, can still use all but 2 abilities with wm turned off. The added depth of abilities has finally made bard challenging to play and most bards like the changes. I know I do. Just because the very vocal minority wants their easy mode class back, isn't enough justification to change how wm works. Try learning how to use your class how the developers of the game intend or stay in the 2.0 mindset. The choice is up to you.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

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I'd have to disagree that any depth was added to bard, let alone make it challenging. They can pull relatively good damage, enough that it justifies a raid spot, but to say that it made the class "harder" to play is a load of allagan bologna. Less timers to keep track of, their gameflow is slowed down to a crawl and you don't even have to be as reactive as you were in 2.0 to mainain your output (infact you'd want to slow down weapon skills a bit if you don't want to waste TP on an extra straight shot).

Despite BRD having a skill cap now similar to other jobs, it is still safe to say (my opinion) it is still the easiest DPS job to play. Looking at rotations like DRG's makes my head spin. On BRD, all that felt required out of me beyond the 2.0 setup is utilizing IJ/EA properly and having abilities charge. Like I said before, only real complaint on BRD for me is that it does feel clunky, which tweaks could fix. Just keep offering criticism on how to make what is there now better instead of trying to get SE to take something completely down that is not broken(anymore).

Remember when wm had a cast time. Remember when wm was a dps loss most of the time when the expansion was released. Remember when in wm your skills got locked for a good 10s or so. We had all the right to complain. Cause the job was broken. It still is.

Or when u see straighter shot procs but it would still have a cast time... Yet u need to hit again leading to tp drain issues.

Or let's talk about how repelling shot being iffy when u follow it with a cast.....

A lot of the clunk that comes with wm is still there after the quick fix. Slapping cast time to everything was a horrible design choice.

Machinist play wise is actually complete. Maybe miner changes and the job will be perfect. I am switching to machinist till this broken job is fixed.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

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Please tell me how Minuet adds depth to the class and how much challenging is it to play with it on. The only difficulty with Minuet is to know exactly when to put it, to be efficient that's it. Other than that it's not more difficult you actually had less buttons to press on compared to when you have it off.

I'm not asking being able to do maximum damage while running around. Of course I don't. I'm asking for tweaks that would actually keep the same spirit bard have without it, just like they did with Machinist. When you play machinist with GB on it feels smooth but when you play bard it feels clunky as hell because all of your skills do not work correctly with Minuet.

Some skills like Rapid Fire function differently when you have Gauss Barel, why isn't it the case with River of blood or any other spell that can actually be relevant when you have cast times?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You mean like how it was in 2.0? The priority list hasn't changed at all, it's the flow/execution and the fragmented playstyle that puts me off.

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I mean, yes, the priority system existed in 2.0. However, you didn't have as many abilities as you do now that warrants you holding your GCDs. It takes a lot of discipline to view each ability and know when to use them, especially in high stress raiding scenarios. Thus, I do feel the skill ceiling is much higher now (although I agree that it's so clunky that it almost feels artificial).

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I mean, yes, the priority system existed in 2.0. However, you didn't have as many abilities as you do now that warrants you holding your GCDs. It takes a lot of discipline to view each ability and know when to use them, especially in high stress raiding scenarios. Thus, I do feel the skill ceiling is much higher now (although I agree that it's so clunky that it almost feels artificial).

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I feel like you're grossly overexaggerating how complex or "discipline needed" for bard is needed after 2.0. We aren't holding GCDs because of new abilities, we're holding it because of the cast time's interaction with one of our passives; River of blood. We only got 3 skills that are used in our normal rotation, while 2 of our previous skills are effectively rendered moot (one DoT due to ironjaws, and repelling shot due to it's interaction with WM). And maybe flame arrow for gamepad users.

Lol... I must be miscommunicating with you, because you keep echoing the same problems I'm agreeing with you on. Yes, the job isn't terribly difficult to master. Yes, the clashing of River of Blood with WM makes for "artificial" difficulty. That being said, it still has created a skill gap between players who are and aren't optimizing Bard, which is why you've been hearing horror stories of Bards doing less than 600 dps on average. Also, I'm really confused by your repelling shot statement. Clashes with WM? You can buffer it between a GCD and you won't be interrupted @_@. The only time it doesn't work is if I'm lagging or I have the skill speed card from an AST. Also Flaming Arrow is admittedly difficult on a controller, but definitely doable (at least on a PC, I can't speak for the ps brothers :s).

So I played Bard on and off throughout 2.X and going into Heavensward I saw nothing but complaints about Wanderers Minuet. So, I leveled the job to 60 and Now that i'm i180 and through a1-4 and Bismarck ex as a bard, I'd like to offer my opinions. I do understand why bards from 2.0 are complaining, sure cast times make the class feel slow and turretish, but honestly the class doesn't really feel different. Sure you cantdance around the Arena all the time while you have wanderers Minuet, but It's not like you're a blackmage that doesn't have the freedom of deciding to move around without cast times. You have an option to turn it off if you feel like dancing around. Ontop of the fact that we have short cast times- which leaves room for movement and dodging mechanics. WM really has just added a layer of skill to the job- knowing when to put it up and knowing how to move to avoid mechanics in a way that doesn't cause too much of a dps loss. As in moving yourself enough to avoid an aoe or two instead of flying from one side of the arena to the other. I know Bards don't enjoy being encouraged to sit in one place and Dps hard, but's not that bad and I actually enjoy the new style of bard. I enjoy the way the class looks as it Charging up during WM- Feels a lot like you're charging a shot something like Megamans Charge shot. You're pouring more power into your arrows essentially so the glowy pause is pretty cool IMO. I practiced Bard hard towards the end of 2.0 hard, did fcob so I could adjust to being a ranged melee dps to play Machinist and even before then I was a BLM main so these cast times and learning to minimize the unnecessary movements was absolutely nothing for me and it pretty much seems like a lot of fights that are out now (Besides Rav Ex, fuck those stupid seeing Walls and Bismarck Tornadoes) don't really require drastic movement constant movement wherre you cant keep WM up for a good portion of the fight. Other than a few QOL changes I really enjoy Bards new playstyle and new skills. It really just seems like they raised the skill cap for the class and are rewarding us for knowing when to sit and dps hard vs when to use our mobile capabilities.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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If they're doing less than 600, they're either not using WM at all or they would've been bad in 2.0 either way.

Nearly every piece of leveling gear and end game weapon has skill speed attached to it. It doesn't exactly help when my cast time is at 1.47 with a 2.45 GCD. Your example also requires you to be channeling a skill close enough to use repelling shot to begin with. It also wouldn't work with empyreal arrow (which is oGCD so you'd definitely clip it using it either before or after repelling)

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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Did we play the same class? We got an extremely situational spell, another one to reset your dots so you only have to hit two keys when you first hit the target or after some kind of phase transition which removed them. In the end we only get two new spells its not that "much" abilities compared to other classes like BLM. When under minuet its actually less stressfull (its still clunky) to keep up with buffs since wihtout it you have to watch for your procs. You still can spam the key but to not loose DPS you have to put them effeciently (unlike that HS+Bloodletter macro). Your silence which entered in your rotation as much as your repelling shot are now even harder to put because it'll depend if you get lucky with procs. On a dumy fight you might be able to use it three times but sometimes two times only during the same ammount of time because procs.

And what the hell "it takes a lot of discipline"... ?? How is using Emp arrow hard? How is using Iron jaw hard? You were used to refresh all your dots manually and now you got a spell that refresh them both, its actually a lot easier to do multidoting. How is using a offgcd ard? It does more damage if you get your dots, but you should always have them up anyway so... In the end the only ability that needs attention is the Minuet. But it solely depends on your knowledge of the fight and not the spell. So yeah we could say Bard is harder to play on unmastered encounters, but wait... isn't it the case of all the DPS? Bards had it easy without Minuet because they were so polyvalent, now you got to the level to people that actually need to think ahead their movement depending on the fight to increase their dps.

The layer of "depth" people seem to think about, is that most Bard weren't actually used to think about how they could increase their dps by learning how the boss moves. Another difficulty was to know if you could multidot or not but it wasn't a big deal since it gets pretty obvious depending on how quickly your group kill them. They are also exceptions like T7, but most of the times Bards could just go in the fight and not really care about the boss because they were so polyvalent. On unknown fields they would mess up their rotation but by no mean it would change it.

If you talk about added difficulty because of spells, some classes changed and these classes actually have a lot more to keep up than you at 60. Black Mage have Enochian to watch out for every minute just like bard with sidewinder. But using enochian opens up the use of blizz/fire IV which do not extend the duration of umbral ice and astral fire. On top of that they got ley lines that increases their attack speed, that needs to be up everytime they get enochian so they can maximize enochian's effect. Sharcast is not a big deal but its something to consider in your rotation. And on top that they have longer cast time than bards and get punished way more for moving. Dragoon has a now a RNG based rotation and blood of the dragoon like many good DRG players will told you can be a pain in the ass to use efficently because it depends a lot on your groups dps and change everytime the more you get gear and the more you get used to the fight. Summoner always had a lot buttons to press because of its pet. They need to keep tracks of their dots just like bards but now their aetherflow usage is much more complex and they get to manage their dreadwyrm stance.

So yes let's be honest. Is playing bard harder because of Minuet? Yes it because as I said, bards weren't use to plan movements. Is it harder to keep up with bards because of new spells? Of course not. Do you see all those job I listed above have to deal with?

Bard has now the depth it should have get in its first place, but they need to fix it so it feels less clunky. People who played effectively bard in 2.0 will have zero issue with it now, and people who were bad at it will still be bad.

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Originally Posted by Meow9000

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Exactly, and the best part about the point we are in the patch is that a lot of your DPS is coming from your own intuition. How well you optimize around movement on the fly, and how well you can react to these changes and adapt and figure out what pulls you the highest numbers.

WM wasn't amazing or anything before it was buffed to 30% but I feel like lack of ^ is a lot of where the complaining about DPS comes from. I've played with and seen too many BRDs who underperform extremely hard and these are the types of people I can see blaming the job and the stance and begging for more changes. People also ignore the fact that BRD has never been near top DPS when placed next to a good melee, though.
I can totally understand the complaints about the playstyle, but I personally love it and I don't know a lot of people that can complain about an increase in the skill floor/skillcap.

It's not a problem of dps. It's a matter of play style. If play style doesn't matter to you then tell me why we shouldn't just have three core classes (tank, healer, dps)? If play style does matter to you, then accept that WM has fundamentally altered the play style of BRD and that many people are upset about that.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Nearly every piece of leveling gear and end game weapon has skill speed attached to it. It doesn't exactly help when my cast time is at 1.47 with a 2.45 GCD. Your example also requires you to be channeling a skill close enough to use repelling shot to begin with. It also wouldn't work with empyreal arrow (which is oGCD so you'd definitely clip it using it either before or after repelling)

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There are plenty of situations where you can be near an enemy to use Repelling Shot. Both Faust and the Oppressor you should be trying to weave in your R. Shot if there's nothing else to use, it's still a dps increase no matter how small it is. You've motivated me to actually do the math and see how much SS you must have until it becomes a DPS decrease though, which is what I'll test tonight.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

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The problem I'm having with your entire post is that you think I'm comparing Bard to any other job, or how I'm comparing it to how all jobs have changed through 3.0. I'm not. What I'm saying is that Bard requires more discipline, more foresight, and more strategy than 2.0 Bard. It's childish and awfully pretentious to counter-argue that "people who were bad at it will still be bad" because it requires a different way of thinking entirely. One thing you cannot argue to me is this: Bard had the most significant change to its core gameplay than any job in 3.0. What does that mean to me? Your mileage will vary depending on player to player. I personally don't have difficulty with Bard, I can parse 1.1~1.2k and I'm no slouch in Savage Alex. I beat all of coil before it got nerfed (in each patch), experienced everything 2.0 had to offer, so I'm coming from a POV that I sympathize with those who struggle with 3.0 Bard.

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And what the hell "it takes a lot of discipline"... ?? How is using Emp arrow hard? How is using Iron jaw hard? You were used to refresh all your dots manually and now you got a spell that refresh them both, its actually a lot easier to do multidoting. How is using a offgcd ard?

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Once again, let me preface this with I personally don't think this is hard. I personally don't think this is hard. Using abilities in a priority system does take discipline, and I can give you an example. If at any moment the enemy is untargetable, your OGCDs will start to line up, and it no longer becomes as simple as a GCD into your OGCD. Prioritizing Empyreal Arrow, Flaming Arrow, BL, and the order in which you do it seems minor, but the damage adds up overtime. No other job has that sort of clunkiness installed into it, which is also why I said I personally feel the difficulty and discipline is more artificial than organic.

In conclusion, I DO NOT THINK BARD IS ANYMORE DIFFICULT THAN ANY JOB OUT THERE. <_< I feel like I have to hammer that in with every post. All I want to do is create insight for Bards who're confused on how to optimize their job with all these DPS checks that came with 3.1, and I want to see our job strive. I implore you to talk about your personal experiences with the job rather than a broad generalization :).

I still love playing as BRD. Reached lvl 60 yesterday, The new ability works well on certain types of enemies - where your not dodging aoes. I still use the old way of playing the most.
Never had anyone complain about me and the way I play.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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It's just that you're not getting your point across to me very well so I actually do not know what you're trying to say or at least interpreting it wrong.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

One thing to note is that you must play Bard in a totally different mindset than your 2.0 counterpart.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

It takes a lot of discipline to view each ability and know when to use them, especially in high stress raiding scenarios. Thus, I do feel the skill ceiling is much higher now....

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It's not all that harder than it's 2.0 counterpart because it's not that different (unless you were monkeying around and jumping just to do so in 2.0). The base foundation is not totally different because you still upkeep dots (and the order of which is applied first is less stressed because they're both reapplied to the same time), use oGCDs as they come off, watch for SS procs and weave in cooldowns inbetween each GCD. You do all that even in WM, just the latter 2 isn't meant for interactin with cast times.

If people are doing bad as bard now (and I'm talking sub 600 on a dummy parse at 170 or alexander fights..which are typically dummies too) , they're either just as bad as they were in 2.0 (where they aren't playing the base foundation of the bard anyway, with or without WM) or they're too stubborn to use WM/reroll. These are typically the people you'd see in DF anyway and probably play just as bad on other classes. I wouldn't even call it as discipline toward playing bard as much as it is situational awareness, which is needed for all classes.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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Experiences from A1 Savage and A2 Savage;
Save Barrage + Hawks Eye + BFB for the Alarums in A1. You can kill your alarum before resin bomb goes off which allows you to squeeze in a bit more DPS because you don't have to move as much while kiting your alarum around at the same time. If you pop HE/BFB/Barrage ASAP going into the missile phase they will come back up around the time the oppressors jump, and you only lose 1 pop of the CDs from saving them the rest of the fight, so it's a reasonable boost.
Floor 2 is entirely about potency per GCD. Multidot with windbite in burst AoE, keep both dots up with IJ in sustained AoE like the gobwidows and jagd dolls, spam RoD as much as you can, just whatever you currently have off of cooldown that will be the highest potency is what you should press (besides quicknock sometimes cause TP) as it's a trash race against time and all that.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

The layer of "depth" people seem to think about, is that most Bard weren't actually used to think about how they could increase their dps by learning how the boss moves.

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So lemme see if I got this right, people were jealous of how easy it was to play bard and easily maximize and maintain an acceptable DPS flow, so now that SE decided to completely change the mechanics anyone that complains about having their class completely turned on its side are bad DPS, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that people were spitefull to how easy it was to play and have fun with the bard class that they are now screaming at any person that says WM isn't just some "new mechanic" that bards can deal with...Do I have it about right?

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Originally Posted by Blaste

So lemme see if I got this right, people were jealous of how easy it was to play bard and easily maximize and maintain an acceptable DPS flow, so now that SE decided to completely change the mechanics anyone that complains about having their class completely turned on its side are bad DPS, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that people were spitefull to how easy it was to play and have fun with the bard class that they are now screaming at any person that says WM isn't just some "new mechanic" that bards can deal with...Do I have it about right?

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Except bards pretty much play the exact same... except you can't double up on ogcds and DoT upkeep is easier than ever.


but omg mah flow

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Except bards pretty much play the exact same... except you can't double up on ogcds and DoT upkeep is easier than ever.


but omg mah flow

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Except dots upkeep is only maintained by the new mechanic which is the general arguemet, it could have been just as easy to not restrict that skill to WM only, basically its the same thing as usually, Bard had no weakspots and melee DPS complained about it, so SE answered by pretty much forcing us to remain stationary during any difficult content to better "balance" our class, otherwise people would just all be bards.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

but omg mah flow

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/endthread

Bard was my MAIN throughout ARR. With dabling in Whm and Nin when not Bard. So when it came to HW, I went bard first. Makes sense? I hate WM. Bards were already the lowest of the DPS in ARR 88% of the time. Their core was "Buff Party / Stay Moving > dont ***** about your lower numbers" That was acceptable. They expansion comes, and in every MMO I've played they dont change playstyles of a Job more then a touch, HW however; Lets Change part of their primary Core. BECOME TURRETS and lets introduce another job that plays the exact same way, same gear, same basic utility but thats brand NEW. MCN having GB makes sense, their entire core was built to be a sniper "Wait, line it up, take the shot." while the playstyle wouldn't be for everyone its THE JOB's Style. Bard's should not be a varient of MCN; which is what it becomes post 50. Hell; until BRD, and to a lesser extent MCN, hit 60, you basically are gimped to 50 if you DONT use WM/GB. No other Job gets slapped in the face like this.

To those saying "oh bards are everywhere" and "I dont see many people changing jobs" Well, you have now. Once I hit 60 on main, I'm putting Bard on a shelf unless WB changes more. My alt, which only ran bard in ARR is also changing but unsure as to what.

Yes it might be soap-box like; but Playstyles of a Job shouldn't change to a different style on an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

So lemme see if I got this right, people were jealous of how easy it was to play bard and easily maximize and maintain an acceptable DPS flow, so now that SE decided to completely change the mechanics anyone that complains about having their class completely turned on its side are bad DPS, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that people were spitefull to how easy it was to play and have fun with the bard class that they are now screaming at any person that says WM isn't just some "new mechanic" that bards can deal with...Do I have it about right?

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If you'd seen in the past how many times people would say that they're glad Bards can't run around like Legolas cause it was annoying to watch or that they have to now actually put "effort" into the class you'd definitely believe the spite was real.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

but omg mah salt

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Just look at this one that comes in here and tries so hard to start fires. But really, this is just a tidbit of how salty people act towards anyone.

It had nothing to do with jealously as to why SE made bards how they are in HW.....

SE took a look at how Bard would play in the Alex Savage and realized they would be able to sustain decent damage without being effected by mechanics much so they gave them a stance which lets them do high damage but sacrifice mobility, it had nothing to do wth anyone's imaginary tears.

That and I'm pretty sure they got too hyped over Machinst and decided to slap it on to Bard.

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

To those saying "oh bards are everywhere" and "I dont see many people changing jobs" Well, you have now. Once I hit 60 on main, I'm putting Bard on a shelf unless WB changes more. My alt, which only ran bard in ARR is also changing but unsure as to what.

Yes it might be soap-box like; but Playstyles of a Job shouldn't change to a different style on an expansion.

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To you and everyone else in this thread crying about the significantly improved bard playstyle i say.......

LESS QQ, MORE PEWPEW

I wonder how many of the people crying about brd have killed faust let alone the other stuff in Savage, because as Yoshi said they want to see how things go in Savage before making much change.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

bawww game developers don't want a class to play like how I want to play it

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Pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Pretty much.

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Its ok for the devs to make these changes and decide how a class should play yes. but.. not after the playerbase spent years figuring out how to play that gamestyle... its just a screw you from SE.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Pretty much.

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If they don't want it to play like that, they shouldn't have had it play like that for 2 years, plus have it still play like that for 52 levels now.