Astro in savage

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Originally Posted by Aurorarose51

with whm cohealer. Figured as much that would be they way to get through it. Maybe i'll see if my heal partner would be ok with this tonight

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Of course some people will clear as AST but right now it's putting an handicap on your team

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Of course some people will clear as AST but right now it's putting an handicap on your team

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It's also really sad that when an AST does get the opportunity to replace a SCH, it's still basically required to stay under Diurnal and act as a second WHM. It's almost like using WHM/WHM* (*took an arrow to the knee) as the composition.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

At this point we are on the top end of clears and I agree AST probably needs more changes to be truly competitive VS the other healers. However as of right now no reports of AST/SCH clears. That is what I want a list of clears or near clears with this was our problems and this is what worked. Since in a well balanced game all three combos should be able to clear all floors of AS. I started the forum since AST seems to be the only class excluded completely form many statics AS runs. Getting a poll of success can help figure out what exactly makes AST so much less viable (or maybe the nay sayers are just too loud right now).

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FC mate AST that got to 2% last night healed with sch. So it is doable but... i think it takes a bit of coordination and a lot of skill.. their sch is... crazy good. and the AST is good too. So really, it's possible, but only if you have the skill and coordination.

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Originally Posted by Aurorarose51

FC mate AST that got to 2% last night healed with sch. So it is doable but... i think it takes a bit of coordination and a lot of skill.. their sch is... crazy good. and the AST is good too. So really, it's possible, but only if you have the skill and coordination.

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Oh that just got me to the edge of my chair. I'm going in again as AST and I'm going to push myself SO damn hard.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Oh that just got me to the edge of my chair. I'm going in again as AST and I'm going to push myself SO damn hard.

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I was the AST

it would have been a kill if the monk didn't get killed by the giant avoidable laser halfway through also.
It really isn't that hard to heal it with ast/sch. It has advantages also like synastry lines up perfectly with double prey/tank buster.

Also our sch has cleric stance up more aggressively than he needs to, with even a few more gear upgrades to the group it would be jokes to make the dps check and he wouldn't need to do any damage and the healing would be trivial.

Did opt for Durinal or Nocturnal Sect with that AST/SCH setup?

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Originally Posted by Staris

I was the AST

~Snip~

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Hi Staris! Thank you for dropping in and providing some insight. Would you mind answering some questions?

1. Does your Scholar change his playstyle from instead just DPS'ing and single-target healing and shielding, apply Succor and AoE heal when required? In addition, does s/he use Eos/Selene and rotate cooldowns to help you AoE heal?

2. For double preys & tank busters, do your tanks use two CDs as opposed to one? In addition, does your SCH apply Adlo on at least 2 or 3 targets?

3. If possible, could you provide raid DPS information as well? I don't care so much about individual numbers, but overall group DPS & tank/healer DPS would be nice.

Thank ^_^ I'm super excited to go in again for another attempt! And kudos and all the praise for clearing (or getting close to) A:S1!

P.S: (I do see lost of room for recovery. I know one main issue even on WHM is my entire raid isn't getting hit by AoE heals x.x)

I was playing AST before savage launch. He was really fun and ok to good on any content before savage. But his strength falls a lot when we were doing harder content. I was the SCH and I had my partner playing WHM. Our first atempt at Alex Savage went well, we got Faust quickly and we were adjusting to Oppressor. We had to leave duty because of some member rl thing.

After that, we rejoined. Our WHM went as AST. No changes on Faust honestly but when we got to oppressor we were having trouble to adjust heals in some parts that we already had adjusted on SCH+WHM duo, and since AST's healing kit is so simmilar to WHM, maybe this reveals that AST is really lacking on something. Total party damage per second didn't change much, but I can't say if that was AST or our DPSs are still adjusting themselves to the fight. I know I'm still adjusting my stance dance and mana management.

I think AST's main problem are Aspected Helios wich Burst is a lot lower than WHM's Medica II and the lack of the Mind Attribute Bonus. I wanna try the WHM+AST duo later (with both Di and Noct). I never liked Aspected Helios since I started leveling AST, and I don't think Nocturnal Stance is bad like most people think. I wanna give it a shot later. Back on 2.x SCH was the support healer, while he still is a semi-supportive healer we got a lot of new heals out of our scholar hats but maybe SCH+AST is not as good because both are supportive kinda of healers? I don't know, I hope not beacuse I love the idea off keeping the party buffed for almost 100% of the time. We may end going up for SCH+WHM duo for progression anyways. I noticed Virus cd doesn't sync well with some AoE magical raid damage, I hope this doesn't become an issue without Disable or other Super Virus user (Summoner).

tl;dr
I think AST can do it. But he'll maybe need a bit more effort and/or gear than the others. To be honest, most and maybe all healer formations may be viable as people get more geared. Who knows!

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Originally Posted by Staris

I was the AST

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Thanks for the info just want the forums to show that AST are not that bad. It also shows that all three options of healer comps. are doable for at least A1S. Was exactly what I was looking for gratz :D.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

SE needs to run A:S under geared with AST/AST or SCH/AST so they can pin point the problem and fix it.

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The Answer is simple don't go in under geared I mean doing it now or later doesn't make much difference it's not like there is any reward for clearing it before anyone else so get the new E tome Ilevel 200 weapon and you will be better off.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

The Answer is simple don't go in under geared I mean doing it now or later doesn't make much difference it's not like there is any reward for clearing it before anyone else so get the new E tome Ilevel 200 weapon and you will be better off.

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If AST can't clear Alexander Savage in the same gear WHM/SCH can, then there is a clear problem with class balance.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

If AST can't clear Alexander Savage in the same gear WHM/SCH can, then there is a clear problem with class balance.

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Stole the words...

I don't want to see AST relegated to a "farming runs only" healer. :(

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

If AST can't clear Alexander Savage in the same gear WHM/SCH can, then there is a clear problem with class balance.

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But who saids they can't?
The job aint a complete month old and people are already spelling doom and gloom.
I personally think it's still to early to be so negative as this whole section is now.
Don't forget whm/sch combo had over a year to evolve/get the best out of it.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

*snip*

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Psst, you should read quoted text.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

But who saids they can't?
The job aint a complete month old and people are already spelling doom and gloom.
I personally think it's still to early to be so negative as this whole section is now.
Don't forget whm/sch combo had over a year to evolve/get the best out of it.

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If AST were fundamentally different than the other two healers, I would agree with you, but it's not in any significant way. Its basic tool kit is the same basic tool kit that WHM and SCH have, so healing proficiency from one or the other carries over decently well. It shouldn't take all that long for people to be able to gauge its capabilities. I'm sure no one's playing AST perfectly yet, but perfect execution shouldn't be necessary to comment on the job. WHM and SCH as it is allow for more mistakes it seems, and mistakes are bound to happen in progression. So for that at least, they're probably preferred.

How old does something have to be before people decide on if the class it lacking when it clearly is? There have been extremes, there was normal, and now there is savage, which currently AST aren't in it simply because of how incredibly hard it is in the current gear even for sch/whm. But, hey, maybe in 3 months when we decide how good the class is, and we have full eso gear and can finally do it, we can decide the class just needs a full BiS gearset to do it and the other healers don't

AST is basically a SCH/WHM in those stances, except weaker and without less ohshit and utility that benefits a HEALER not a support. And the weakness is offset by the cards, which are RNG and may not make up for the tools the other healers bring.

This is ignoring plenty of other problems the class has, I think we're beyond having to wait to decide how things shape up

from what i experienced and this is just the first floor

astro with a white mage partner felt just barely maybe doable and everything was in a constant state of emergency
switched to scholar and it all felt pretty smooth and easygoing for healing

the difference was kind of unbelievable

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Originally Posted by Staris

I was the AST

it would have been a kill if the monk didn't get killed by the giant avoidable laser halfway through also.
It really isn't that hard to heal it with ast/sch. It has advantages also like synastry lines up perfectly with double prey/tank buster.

Also our sch has cleric stance up more aggressively than he needs to, with even a few more gear upgrades to the group it would be jokes to make the dps check and he wouldn't need to do any damage and the healing would be trivial.

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I tried with my SCH co-healer and we couldn't get past Faust even though we took it down to 3%. Then switched to WHM and beat Faust on 2nd try and still had MP left. :/ With WHM the SCH and I had more room to DPS.... but we shouldn't be relying on that just to beat it. DPS should have no problems with Faust not moving at all... basically just a dummy. DPS shouldn't rely on that because they will have to pull their weight on the boss. I hate feeling like I carry with WHM.

My static is being kind enough to let me try AST tomorrow again.

Edit: Would like to add, even with the runs where I managed to get Balance and Arrow cards, it still wasn't enough and EVEN with Ewer cards to get my MP back, still not enough, ran out of MP like crazy even when I rarely had problems with MP before. On WHM, Assize and Asylum helped a lot, too and well, Divine Seal + Regen is a monster.

Also got extended and enhanced Bole cards out of RNG, so I used them on the MT to be able to DPS a bit more. Still, wasn't enough.

In Diurnal AST is basically WHM with fewer options for both AoE and single target healing, as well as lower potency. Also in exchange for the utility WHM has, AST has RNG cards which can't be counted on and so are removed from the equation (healing has to be dependable for the job to be viable). All that leaves is the ability to extend regen time, Synergy, LightSpeed and Disable.

So as far as AST being too new to determine its ability--if you've played WHM, then its just a matter of knowing how these skills work. Now even if you didn't perform as well as you'd hoped as an AST, you can pretty much gauge whether or not these skills would have solved your issue.

You can argue Nocturnal, but Nocturnal is further below SCH than Diurnal is to WHM.

All in all, this is why I'm REALLY hoping they can solve this issue in a way that isn't just strict potency. AST currently feels pretty unique when playing it compared to other healers, but at the same time it's so close to being a weak WHM when in Diurnal, so the last thing I want is it to be any closer. The really difficult part about this though, is that AST brings a lot of utility and if measured totally on par with WHM or SCH, then it'll instantly become the healer of choice.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

the lack of the Mind Attribute Bonus.

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Yesterday I watches how much this bonus bring on the table. I was surprised. It was more than I expected.

This bonus do also affect cleric stance?

Are all bonuses this noticeable? We are missing the STR bonus becuase no DRG/MNK.

Using DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/BRD/MCH/DRG/NIN, we've been having an unbelievably bad time in A1. Two supports make the group dps a bit suboptimal, which is forcing us to make up the rest of it with tank and healer damage. The trouble is, we can't.

Without the extremely consistent regen from a WHM using Divine Seal, each aoe takes more than one cast to cover, and the tank damage is absolutely absurd. Ideally, we'd only have to run ballad at each jump, and the BRD/MCH combo would top both healers off, but I have no choice but to drop a turret nearly 40 seconds before each jump. Astrologian just doesn't have the throughput or MP regen to cover such an intense fight. To top it off, with how much healing we need, we're forced to open with an Expanded Balance card to catch up to where a group with more consistent healer dps would be.

If there's one thing I can say about it, though, we do open REALLY hard. So far, our record was 56% on the split, but we lost a tank shortly after. That attempt would have been low enough that we didn't need healer damage at all. Conclusion, if every single little thing goes perfectly well, an Astro can handle it. If anything goes wrong, there's no recovery.

I've tried Savage Floor 1 with my AST yesterday and today and honestly, it feels like AST just doesn't cut it. My SCH co-healer is unable to dps optimally since they have to help me aoe heal and keep the tanks up so I don't run out of mp before the first jump. They haven't said anything to me about my healing output, but I know it's not cutting it. So I decided to halt my SCH leveling and instead take WHM to 60 before it. My static's SCH and WAR both seemed to have caught me doing that and both sent me /tells saying the healing output was fine, but I know it's not. They seem to want me to stay AST and I would like to clear savage on AST just to prove that it can do savage, but it's honestly not capable of doing savage at the current gear level in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

If AST can't clear Alexander Savage in the same gear WHM/SCH can, then there is a clear problem with class balance.

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The problem is you don't know what gear level these guys are at they could have better on one job and slightly lower on another and E tome gear is a bit more optimized for AST rather then having to use gear that is made to be decent for 3 different healer types.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

The problem is you don't know what gear level these guys are at they could have better on one job and slightly lower on another and E tome gear is a bit more optimized for AST rather then having to use gear that is made to be decent for 3 different healer types.

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A decent argument, but secondary stats in this game don't make or break a class.
For example, a scholar with no crit. Yeah, it'd be miserable, but you'd still be able to make it work and do perfectly fine.

Not to mention the esoteric gear isn't even optimal for their classes as far as secondaries go. >_> Scholar is like full DET and white mage is full CRIT, yeah no I'm not buying that that is the optimal stat weight.

Secondary stats on the AF2 gear are a mess. Same goes for some of the non-healer classes, too.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

A decent argument, but secondary stats in this game don't make or break a class.
For example, a scholar with no crit. Yeah, it'd be miserable, but you'd still be able to make it work and do perfectly fine.

Not to mention the esoteric gear isn't even optimal for their classes as far as secondaries go. >_> Scholar is like full DET and white mage is full CRIT, yeah no I'm not buying that that is the optimal stat weight.

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Check out the ones for AST all but 2 are the best for AST and the Savage weapon is better then the E tomes one but the Ilevel alone would up your healing.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

A decent argument, but secondary stats in this game don't make or break a class.
For example, a scholar with no crit. Yeah, it'd be miserable, but you'd still be able to make it work and do perfectly fine.

Not to mention the esoteric gear isn't even optimal for their classes as far as secondaries go. >_> Scholar is like full DET and white mage is full CRIT, yeah no I'm not buying that that is the optimal stat weight.

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The reason those others seem all over is because they want you to mix and match E Tome and Savage gear to have optimal secondary stats.

Eh. I ran a1 savage for two nights with my static, and I agree that SCH\AST combo is horrible in this fight. Our ast is leveling WHM, will see if that makes the split phase more manageable - currently, keeping everyone alive is a serious problem. As a SCH I don't feel safe dpsing for any relevant amount of time, and the enrage at 8 mins currently REQUIRES healer dps.

Hmm maybe it's just me but I always felt Noc > Regen.

Maybe it's just me but I conserve tons of MP healing in Noc then I do Regen, I only use regen with Sch. HOWEVER take this with a grain of salt as I've yet to heal hard content.

Reason being is because Noc grants me 5% healing power (slight perma "potency buff") The shield means a bit little less healing. Mixed in with Light Speed and I can top the party off without burning tons of mp.

Not to mention the indirect buff it got from lightspeed (the mp cost reduction on top of it not reducing healing potency).

I will have to try Alex Savage before I can make a full call however.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Hmm maybe it's just me but I always felt Noc > Regen.

Maybe it's just me but I conserve tons of MP healing in Noc then I do Regen, I only use regen with Sch. HOWEVER take this with a grain of salt as I've yet to heal hard content.

Reason being is because Noc grants me 5% healing power (slight perma "potency buff") The shield means a bit little less healing. Mixed in with Light Speed and I can top the party off without burning tons of mp.

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Aspected Benefic on Nocturnal gives you around 1,4k shield using ~750mp, ok, but in diurnal you get "1k shield" on each tick (36 seconds with time dilation) for the same MP. I really love noct stance but diurnal is a lot of better atm and better MP saving.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Eh. I ran a1 savage for two nights with my static, and I agree that SCH\AST combo is horrible in this fight. Our ast is leveling WHM, will see if that makes the split phase more manageable - currently, keeping everyone alive is a serious problem. As a SCH I don't feel safe dpsing for any relevant amount of time, and the enrage at 8 mins currently REQUIRES healer dps.

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Yeah I imagine running two Hybrid Healing class together is never a good idea.
AST = Heal/Party Support
SCH = Heal/DPS

I would try WHM + AST and swap out a bard/mcn before I'd try SCH +AST

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Originally Posted by Kiriacou

Your DPS is under geared if you require healer DPS to make the DPS check.
Yoshi has stated that healer DPS is not taken into account when tunning the fights.

As for sch being heal/DPS that goes to show me you have no understanding of what a sch does or is.
Sch is ultimately in the end heal/damage reduction, if you can't see that go back to whm or dps

It is threads like these where I wish she made cleric's stance like last stances can't use in battle.

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What the hell are you talking about.

We are discussing progression content, of course we are "undergeared" - that is the whole point of progression.

Also no, it appears it is you who has no understanding of how to optimize SCH if you ignore the dps it can dish out.

Also no, Yoshida never said that in regards to Savage progression.

Also your last sentence makes no logical sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Kiriacou

Your DPS is under geared if you require healer DPS to make the DPS check.
Yoshi has stated that healer DPS is not taken into account when tunning the fights.

As for sch being heal/DPS that goes to show me you have no understanding of what a sch does or is.
Sch is ultimately in the end heal/damage reduction, if you can't see that go back to whm or dps

It is threads like these where I wish she made cleric's stance like last stances can't use in battle.

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This has nothing to do with design philosophy, more of the information that SE will look at to finish balances. Fact one- SCH/WHM can clear savage, yes they are dpsing in phases that need it, yes they are mainly healing in phases that need it. Fact two- AST is still way under picked and many people find AST/WHM to be possible, but many still find WHM/SCH to be overwhelmingly easier to handle the fights. At this point we need to look at why and SCH ability to deal constant dps over an encounter with a WHM partner is an advantage period. AST has cards that are there to make up for lack of healing (and in turn now dps with a SCH or AST itself) which it is not. Regardless of if Yoshi is taking the dps number into account when "making" the raids (aka he is fine with healers dpsing he simply stated that he will not take healer dps into account when his team makes raids) he certainly cares that a job is not taken because of lack of dps.The only stance that is not changed in battle is AST sects. Sorry that people want to play and push the game to beat savage now and not in three weeks.

Sorry about seeming tough on it, but not having healers dps regardless of stance is a fantasy in high skill progression groups. As well as this for the most part (some people like to diverge a bit) is about looking at how ASTs are progressing and what problems they are hitting.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Hi Staris! Thank you for dropping in and providing some insight. Would you mind answering some questions?

1. Does your Scholar change his playstyle from instead just DPS'ing and single-target healing and shielding, apply Succor and AoE heal when required? In addition, does s/he use Eos/Selene and rotate cooldowns to help you AoE heal?

2. For double preys & tank busters, do your tanks use two CDs as opposed to one? In addition, does your SCH apply Adlo on at least 2 or 3 targets?

3. If possible, could you provide raid DPS information as well? I don't care so much about individual numbers, but overall group DPS & tank/healer DPS would be nice.

Thank ^_^ I'm super excited to go in again for another attempt! And kudos and all the praise for clearing (or getting close to) A:S1!

P.S: (I do see lost of room for recovery. I know one main issue even on WHM is my entire raid isn't getting hit by AoE heals x.x)

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First off (From Yesterday)
\\http://i.imgur.com/9cB2Qkj.png

I used Diurnal Stance. Eos was out for the SCH.

1. I did significant amount of the aoe healing using only aspect-ed Helios. Remember people don't have to be topped off immediately the aoe damage is predictable, and you know who the prety targets are long enough ahead to top them off. Also i used synastry on a tank every double prey/ tank buster. (it lines up so perfectly that I would cast it early on the first 1 or 2) Should note that the range of synsatry effects the bonus heal and you have to be within 30 meters of the buffed target, but they dont have to be 30 meters from the heal target.

2. The paladin did Sentinel 1 and 3, HG 2, and was going to rampart 4 (which is risky he dies sometimes there but its secoonds before the enrage and he can survive it if topped off and disable/virus ect).
The Warrior does Holmgang for 1 and 3 and every other buff 2 and 4.
It is important to know you could and should virus and disable the tank buster on the tank who does not currently using HG or Holmgang.
Which means you could virus the prey cast on the HG/Holmgang target if you have a second super virus.

3. The SCH did About 400? DPS. I did about 20 (only dotted on pull) (Plus lots of dps cards on the summoner).


We had a 4 % wipe a 2 % wipe and a 1 % wipe. and than killed it like 10 seconds before enrage.
Very frustrating that we would have had it the first day minus a single dps death to big laser.

We did 3 lockouts on day one, and it only took 1/2 a lockout on the second day and nearly every attempt was to the end. So i feel it is a very viable comp. Very few wipes were to healing issues.

So, uh, nice first post.. @_@

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Originally Posted by Kiriacou

Your DPS is under geared if you require healer DPS to make the DPS check.
Yoshi has stated that healer DPS is not taken into account when tunning the fights.

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FYI, we ARE under geared for Alex Savage and thus, yes, healing DPS is definitely most helpful to meet these DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by Kiriacou

As for sch being heal/DPS that goes to show me you have no understanding of what a sch does or is.
Sch is ultimately in the end heal/damage reduction, if you can't see that go back to whm or dps

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Badgering people on how to play their job on your very first post..

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Originally Posted by Kiriacou

It is threads like these where I wish she made cleric's stance like last stances can't use in battle.

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I hope not because I enjoy having OPTIONS in my playstyle - not punished because I can play better than most other healers thanks to Cleric Stance. I am actually a bit sad they renagged on AST being able to sect change in combat, but I can live with it.

So, in the end..

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/c7/c718...dc7d8fbd01.jpg

If they ignored healer DPS when balancing the raids, they didn't expect people to clear A1 this week.

Congratulations, Staris and your raid group! That's an awesome feat to accomplish, and thank you so much for answering my questions--I really appreciate it (and I'm sure many others do too!) I'm guessing the "healing" issues I'm encountering is just a combination of both tanks and healers not expecting damage (and not popping CDs), and one (that I had to point out yesterday) was Blood for Blood being used when targets have. Aside from players eating mechanics, like you said, I did notice the few areas where you could just let HoTs top everyone off while you focus on healing prey targets & tanks.

Guess we just need to go in for a full lockout (and not have ISP issues) for some more experience. And totally going off tangent, but my goodness. I was so saddened and frustrated yesterday that we had to skip raid day and play "carry the D/C'ing Astrologian" on A2 Story Mode so I could get my weekly drop.

Oh oh oh! And on a side note, how are you liking the changes to Lightspeed?

@Staris
Congratz and thanks for the feedback! I'm interesed in your opinion about how well AST performs as opposed to WHM. If possible, try with WHM next week and let us know. Good luck for AS2!

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Originally Posted by Aurorarose51

I tried.. i really tried... just attempted with ast/sch, and we just could not get off enough aoe healing and topping people off for the double preys.. faust was a pain healing through as well. tanks died so much for us at 6% with ast healing and mild sch dps.. Switched back to sch/whm, one shot faust, i didn't even have to cast a single heal with me back on sch. boss himself went a lot better as well to heal through. i... really tried... and i'm so upset i'm going back to sch </3

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I had this exact same experience :( The double prey was so hard to heal through and then preparing for tank busters...

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Originally Posted by Staris

We did 3 lockouts on day one, and it only took 1/2 a lockout on the second day and nearly every attempt was to the end. So i feel it is a very viable comp. Very few wipes were to healing issues.

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The problem is that if you're wiping to DPS checks, a WHM/SCH duo allows the SCH to do a hell of a lot more DPS and, as people have been saying in the thread, that's what their experience has been and the content becomes dramatically easier once they switched to this combo.

And that's actually BACKWARDS: the whole point of AST is that you should be making DPS checks faster because of the buffs, and if we're not, then there's NO point to AST at all. :\

I'm guessing that if you had a WHM/SCH combo you'd have just rolled right through it...