Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

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Originally Posted by Terribad

This is usual mmo rules in majority of ever other mmo

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Not in other MMOs I've played. Including SWTOR. Most people in SWTOR would go "lolscrub get out" and kick a newbie without a second thought. And they wouldn't get in trouble because the GMs there don't care. FF14 is one of the most friendliest MMOs I've played, probably because you can actually get in trouble for being a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Not in other MMOs I've played. Including SWTOR. Most people in SWTOR would go "lolscrub get out" and kick a newbie without a second thought. And they wouldn't get in trouble because the GMs there don't care. FF14 is one of the most friendliest MMOs I've played, probably because you can actually get in trouble for being a jerk.

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Majority =/= all. Which is why I didn't say all. I'm 100% positive there are other mmos where people are jerks to newbies.

To save on daily posts.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Maybe it's a rule in some, but I highly doubt in the majority.

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I've been playing mmorpgs for a VERY long time and I've played (to end game) almost every mmo out there. General rule in majority of mmos is to give a brief run down before fights (or at the start, whatever). Yes there will be people that kick and it's usually in harder content (Which is usually harder than the hardest content here, go figure) and sometimes it's not. But the general rule for this game is "Watch a video" or get kicked out, regardless of the difficulty level.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Majority =/= all. Which is why I didn't say all. I'm 100% positive there are other mmos where people are jerks to newbies.

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Maybe it's a rule in some, but I highly doubt in the majority.

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I've been playing mmorpgs for a VERY long time and I've played (to end game) almost every mmo out there. General rule in majority of mmos is to give a brief run down before fights (or at the start, whatever).

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That's nice, but it doesn't persuade me.

I am not sure about content that has been added into other MMO's recently. But it seems 14 has the most instant kill/stay dead mechanics I have ever seen. Also has the most someone screws up it is a wipe mechanics. In the few other games I have played even when people are having bad raid nights they can not wipe a group like in 14. They can make it so you never see the boss dead but never the pure fail we feel.

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Originally Posted by I_Punch_Bees

If those who are 'vets' get tired of explaining something, I hate to see how miserable they are IRL.

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/long rant because that seems a bit too judgmental

I'm one of those person that get tired of having to explain, first because no one else ever does it and second simply because English isn't my native language.

Someone is new? Tank asks for tips? Np I'll try and give small phrased indications (ignore adds/lots of aoe/face boss this way/etc) but having to explain a whole raid turn? My case is special I know, as I personally can't know the mobs/boss/abilities name in english, and my explanation can usually seem vague with my wonky english, but that's the best I can do and it will never be enough for something like A4. So even if I wanted to type for minutes to help someone who was too lazy, it wouldn't do any good in the end.

As others have said, if you join a long and 'difficult' duty and expect to be explained everything, you're probably going to be disappointed. And a party disband. Especially when it come to a more complicated turn of a raid. Imagining having to explain for 10 minutes a fight like A4 and taking the risk of doing it badly and being hold responsible because the new person didn't understood, just no. Go watch a 3 minutes video at least.

Any new person has the right to make mistakes and ask questions, but I'm not going to pull out a guide and resume it just because the person was too lazy to do it themselves.

TLDR; I often find myself having to quickly explain bosses to new people, but I'm more than probably not going to sit and type for 10 min and stress myself about a boss with many mechanisms when the person could have done it in three minutes outside of the duty. You want a blind experience? Ask friends/FC or use the PF.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

But my question is why don't they?

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1. Because they're tired of explaining things
2. Because they're still fairly new to the fight and don't have a solid grasp of the mechanics themselves
3. Because they don't know the mechanics for the role that is asking for explanations
4. Because they play on a console and don't have a keyboard to type with
5. Because English isn't their first language
6. Because they aren't good at explaining mechanics
7. Because they just plain don't feel like it

There are lots of reasons why someone can't/won't give explanations of mechanics.

I feel like anything in this game that even qualifies as "endgame" isn't really doable in a random DF. Totally doable if everyone knows what to do, but queue into a DF and at least half of the people will be clueless first timers. Because people who have already cleared it will be going into the "no law bonus" farms.

I find it funny, there's hardly ever any "learning parties" in PF, especially a couple weeks after release. There's tons of "clear" parties, but you join them and realise there isn't any chance of actually clearing it because a couple people have never tried it before and have no clue what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

1. Because they're tired of explaining things
2. Because they're still fairly new to the fight and don't have a solid grasp of the mechanics themselves
3. Because they don't know the mechanics for the role that is asking for explanations
4. Because they play on a console and don't have a keyboard to type with
5. Because English isn't their first language
6. Because they aren't good at explaining mechanics
7. Because they just plain don't feel like it

There are lots of reasons why someone can't/won't give explanations of mechanics.

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So none of this stuff happens in other mmorpgs?

Obviously strangers aren't obligated to do anything but player their class and different people will have many different reasons. I still just find it weird that majority of people are like that in this game. But eh, oh well.

Ah yes the classic problem with duty finder. Half the people join for "learning' and other half joins for "clearing" ... And any content that isn't steamroll, everyone walks away dissapointed. Neither group wants to start a party finder so take what you get! I'd be willing to bet that dungeon/duty finders is the reason MMOs are so watered down now. Now let's roll out the item level 200 gear and do our item lvl 145 dungeons lol!

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Originally Posted by Terribad

So none of this stuff happens in other mmorpgs?

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It sure happened in Ragnarok Online back when I played that. People were way worse about it, too.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

It sure happened in Ragnarok Online back when I played that. People were way worse about it, too.

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Like I said earlier, I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other mmos I'm 100% positive it does, in fact I KNOW it does. I've seen it, I've played games where a nice chunk of players didn't do X dungeon and they played for months to years cause no one would take first timers. But most game's I've played, majority of the people were not that way and if they were it was justifiable(I don't think being a jerk is ok, but not taking newbies that wanted to go in blind,etc) because the content was actually hard.

A4 is very similar to when the steps of faith trial was released. It's not hard to do, but it takes coordination to do. A4 is no different, once everyone knows what they need to do/are responsible for doing it's not difficult at all.

However, just like with steps, folks are very quick to abandon/kick after a wipe because in their minds it means that the coordination isn't there and they are just wasting their time running it and wiping over and over. This gets worse the longer the content has been out and you'll see groups move even faster to abandon if it's a tank/healer saying it's their first time.

Sadly, it's the natural state of the DF. Unless it's day 1 of something being in the DF you'll run into people expecting everyone to have completed it/watched a vid/read a guide. The only time this ever changes (and sometimes not by much) is if they add echo to the duty

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

When I do my first run of any fungeon or a raid, I always go in blind and turn off party chat to avoid mechanics spoilers.
Maybe it's selfish but it's more fun this way. When, and only when I'll cause wipes I'll ask for explanation.
I also watch guide videos only after experiencing Ex primals blindly.

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Fun for you, maybe. Not fun for the other three or seven random people that have to carry someone that's not only ignorant of the mechanics, they're also completely uncommunicative. I can see going in blind when your entire party is going in blind. Going in blind to Duty Finder and expecting the rest of the party to carry your weight... eh. Honestly, if I ran into someone in a duty that did all the mechanics wrong and had zero communication with the party, I'd probably assume they were there to troll and initiate a kick on them. Turning off the chat box is basically saying "screw you" to the other seven people in the party. :/

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Like I said earlier, I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other mmos I'm 100% positive it does, in fact I KNOW it does. I've seen it, I've played games where a nice chunk of players didn't do X dungeon and they played for months to years cause no one would take first timers. But most game's I've played, majority of the people were not that way and if they were it was justifiable(I don't think being a jerk is ok, but not taking newbies that wanted to go in blind,etc) because the content was actually hard.

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What it basically boils down to is that no one is obligated to do something they don't want to. If someone doesn't want to/can't take the time to explain mechanics for whatever reason, they shouldn't feel like they are forced into doing so, or that they are somehow a bad person if they don't do it. Promoting the attitude that it is the responsibility of veteran players to teach newbies is a great way to make the vets end up feeling burned out and resentful for being expected to play teacher all the time when all they really want to do is play the game. Not everyone enjoys teaching, and there's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't feel like it's expected of them if they don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

I find it funny, there's hardly ever any "learning parties" in PF, especially a couple weeks after release. There's tons of "clear" parties, but you join them and realise there isn't any chance of actually clearing it because a couple people have never tried it before and have no clue what they're doing.

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Because too many people find it easier to complain there isn't enough learning parties instead of trying to get one going instead.

I've done dungeons where I'm the only new person and had someone take them time to type down and explain the mechanics of a boss fight. It's not hard. But then again, I do try to do my best when I play. Maybe the Twelve smile down on me and I just get nice players to run with.

As for me? I don't mind explaining stuff to newbies. Just as long as they listen, than all will be fine.

I'm not always good at explaining, but always willing as best I can if I know it.

shouldn't use DF for Alex 4. most likely they're gonna fail horribly.

I hate to say it but that's just how mmo community's are these days. They have always been this way actually. Nothing but toxic in my opinion. There will always be that one person that will ruin your gaming experience but you just gotta learn to not be bothered by it. That's what I do lol. I'm sure people will disagree with this but owell. I threw in my two cents. OP, don't worry much about it and keep trying :)

Video game players lack critical communication skills, and exhibit anti-social tendencies.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Like I said earlier, I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other mmos I'm 100% positive it does, in fact I KNOW it does. I've seen it, I've played games where a nice chunk of players didn't do X dungeon and they played for months to years cause no one would take first timers. But most game's I've played, majority of the people were not that way and if they were it was justifiable(I don't think being a jerk is ok, but not taking newbies that wanted to go in blind,etc) because the content was actually hard.

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Honestly what kind of mystical mmo's have you been playing?
I come back from some wow time and in dungeons people don't care if you are new or anything, they just rush ahead. Hell you would be lucky if you even get into the bossroom cause you are typing you are new.
Then raid wise there is LFR which is the closest to DF there is there and since mechanics cannot kill you unless you stand in the fire 100% of the fight nobody cares.

Oh and i just came back and did my story from 2.4 to HW and explained i was new in every dungeon/trial and i have never someone yell at me to watch a video.

People totally expect you to at least skim a guide in other MMOs for any remotely difficult content, what are you people talking about? No one in ffxiv expects you to read a guide for dungeons, but for ex primals, absolutely. Am I taking crazy pills? What's the point of getting someone to type out a guide for you in game?

Seriously, what's the effective difference? Get a guy to type you a guide in game, or look at the guide someone posted online specifically for people like you? Why do people need a tailor made guide if they're gonna ask for a guide anyways? If you wanna do it blind, do it, but if you're gonna ask someone to explain the strat to you, ask google.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

FFXIV was the first MMORPG where i saw things like this:

- Did you watch Youtube videos before entering the dungeon
- Did you watch the guides before entering the dungeon

If you response, no i did not? Then you are noob and bad player.

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You must have never played WoW.

The *only* game that I've played where this was *not* a thing, was Everquest 2, and that was only because the boss strats were kept secret from everyone until the fights were well outdated.

Unless you had connections in a higher ranked guild, you had to make your own strats, and video guides were near non existent when I played last.

Granted, this was 2012 when I stopped hardcore raiding there, so it may have changed since. We had someone that was friends with a guy in the dev guild on Guk that we got strats and GuildConnect strings from.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Honestly what kind of mystical mmo's have you been playing?
I come back from some wow time and in dungeons people don't care if you are new or anything, they just rush ahead. Hell you would be lucky if you even get into the bossroom cause you are typing you are new.
Then raid wise there is LFR which is the closest to DF there is there and since mechanics cannot kill you unless you stand in the fire 100% of the fight nobody cares.

Oh and i just came back and did my story from 2.4 to HW and explained i was new in every dungeon/trial and i have never someone yell at me to watch a video.

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Lol those places weren't magical trust me. Wow...eh, WoW is WoW that place is just, I can't describe it. But the other mmos I played had LOTS of drama and typically the people were just down right mean. HOWEVER giving a quick run down of the boss is just something you do ya know?

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Lol those places weren't magical trust me. Wow...eh, WoW is WoW that place is just, I can't describe it. But the other mmos I played had LOTS of drama and typically the people were just down right mean. HOWEVER giving a quick run down of the boss is just something you do ya know?

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That honestly depends on the fight.
I can only use pre HW examples cause i don't got the expansion (well i got it but not really, don't ask)
I don't mind giving some quick pointers in a dungeon, however during primals or coil/crystal tower i expected people to know the fight.
Why? Because those fights usually required a certain strategy that you need to follow and the difference between me typing the whole thing out and watching a video of the thing is that i can and probably will forget something.

This mentality dominates over the online community at present.

Watch videos/do your best or get kicked if you're farming.

I don't want to say I agree with their mentality, but I admit even myself will lose patience and I MYSELF WILL LEAVE if I get fed up and just requeue. Or I ask to be kicked from the party to requeue.

I never get toxic, I never swear, I never call anyone out. I just ask to be dismissed whenever I notice that we won't clear the content. And it is really obvious when we just simply won't clear it when we die (example) to the "walk around the arena in a circle and don't get hit by the orbs" in Ravana EX for the 4th time.

I however have never and will never ask for anyone to be kicked unjustly. That is downright foul.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

So, I just qued up for the fourth turn of Alexander, ("The Burden of the Father"), for my first time. I told the group that it was such as soon as we were in, and asked again before the fight started what I needed to know.
/endrant

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similar happened with me in turn 3 last week.. queued when could said was my first time.. no1 even told me tactics for boss after 1st wipe few of them screamed for me to be kicked... the dragoon in party said why its his first time?? still got kicked lol thats why i avoid raiding cause the elitism in games just pisses me off :P

To be frank, you shouldn't run difficult content for the first time using Duty Finder if you don't research the fight first. If you want to "learn while doing", you should start or join a Party Finder group that is specifically for that purpose.

If you're going to run it using DF, you should at least research the fight first.

Dungeons are generally easy enough that the rule doesn't really apply to them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, you shouldn't run difficult content for the first time using Duty Finder if you don't research the fight first. If you want to "learn while doing", you should start or join a Party Finder group that is specifically for that purpose.

If you're going to run it using DF, you should at least research the fight first.

Dungeons are generally easy enough that the rule doesn't really apply to them.

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DF isnt designed to be pro parties if want the perfect party then those ppl should preform when i tried floor 3 there wasnt even any videos available sooooo

The last time I tried the fourth Alexander fight (last Tuesday), I got called a "lazy garbage SCH" because apparently the BLM focus targeting me couldn't see that I used Lustrate or Indomitability and yelled at me for not specifically using Physick much. And even though I positioned Eos right at the center and did my best to heal the tanks and DPS, the other healer complained that he was "carrying" me and was told I had to "start" healing. And then I get vote kicked out after a single wipe.

Given how challenging that fight is especially in the third phase (which was when the wipe occurred), and the fact only two people will even get any loot upon victory, a toxic environment with verbal abuse in the event of failure is unacceptable. I see no reason to repeat the Alexander fights if I'm just going to yelled at for spurious reasons that probably wasn't solely my fault.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

DF isnt designed to be pro parties if want the perfect party then those ppl should preform when i tried floor 3 there wasnt even any videos available sooooo

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Sorry but who are you to say what it is designed for?
It is just a tool and people use it the way they want.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Sorry but who are you to say what it is designed for?
It is just a tool and people use it the way they want.

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obviously it was designed that way lmao

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

who are you to more or less tell 1st timers to use party finder??

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I never said such thing.
You apparently know what DF is designed for.
I said that DF is just a tool and the community in general decides how to use it.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

DF isnt designed to be pro parties if want the perfect party then those ppl should preform when i tried floor 3 there wasnt even any videos available sooooo

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Firstly, stop with the strawman/hyperbole. Second, that's fine for the first few days that content is available, because everyone is still learning. I went in blind too.

But the content has been out for almost 2 weeks now and there are plenty of videos available. So if you are doing it for the first time at this point, you should either A) research it or B) use the Party Finder to make a learning party.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

DF isnt designed to be pro parties if want the perfect party then those ppl should preform when i tried floor 3 there wasnt even any videos available sooooo

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DF also isn't designed as a carrying mechanism for players that don't want to bother learning the encounters.

We already have merc groups for that.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

The last time I tried the fourth Alexander fight (last Tuesday), I got called a "lazy garbage SCH" because apparently the BLM focus targeting me couldn't see that I used Lustrate or Indomitability and yelled at me for not specifically using Physick much. And even though I positioned Eos right at the center and did my best to heal the tanks and DPS, the other healer complained that he was "carrying" me and was told I had to "start" healing. And then I get vote kicked out after a single wipe.

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It sounds like you were better off without that group anyway. You had a clueless healing partner and at least one clueless DPS, so you should probably be glad that they kicked you before the shit really hit the fan. Honestly, if I notice that I'm having to do a majority of the healing in a given encounter, I start paying close attention to what my partner is and isn't doing so that I can give them specific things to work on. Calling you garbage and telling you to "start healing" isn't helpful or constructive at all. Now that I think about it, I don't even really know why the BLM would focus target you. He could just as easily see your cast bar in the party list.

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Given how challenging that fight is especially in the third phase (which was when the wipe occurred), and the fact only two people will even get any loot upon victory, a toxic environment with verbal abuse in the event of failure is unacceptable. I see no reason to repeat the Alexander fights if I'm just going to yelled at for spurious reasons that probably wasn't solely my fault.

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Eh, so you ran into one bad group. Don't let it ruin your day. Honestly, my static queues as 6/8 or 7/8 a lot of the time for Alexander and don't mind a bit if we get someone new as long as they're willing to listen to an explanation. In fact, the vast majority of the time it turns out to be a happy first clear and some easy bonus law for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

you should either A) research it or B) use the Party Finder to make a learning party.

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If you want a clear party you should.

B) Use the party finder to find experience party members instead of expecting random people to know.

See look I can tell you how to play the game too!

Duty finder should have 0 expectations of anything.

Pro players shouldn't expect the random people they are grouped with to know a damn thing about the fight.
New players shouldn't expect the random people they are grouped with to care about teaching them mechanics or putting up with a new player.

You use the duty finder to be grouped up with 3-7 totally random strangers and expecting anything from anyone is unreasonable, anyone from new to pro is allowed to presss that button and nowhere does it state experience is required to do so.If you want to set your own rules regardless of new or old content make it with friends or the party finder. I said it at the start of the thread and I'll say it again.

...I hate the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, you shouldn't run difficult content for the first time using Duty Finder if you don't research the fight first. If you want to "learn while doing", you should start or join a Party Finder group that is specifically for that purpose.

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To be frank, expecting players to research fights before joining through Duty Finder is setting yourself up for disappointment. If you want to establish and set your own standards for the group, that is what Party Finder is for.

Op, content has been out for two weeks. I don't see what the difference between reading a guide and asking your random party to write one up. Most people don't mind it but they aren't obligated to and you shouldn't get angry and upset at people who don't want to. When you go into a df party blind it's a roll of the dice what the group will expect. Only way to control that is to put yourself in pf and advertise a progression group. Otherwise you're at the mercy of what the group decides.

If it helps you feel better, chances are you were kicked so people could drop without penalty and requeue in hopes of getting a more experienced group.

DF even prioritizies new players, votekickin for not knowing a guide should actualy be grounds for legal action if someone had the guts to spill some money on vanity law case -_-. Still if the very code puts new players in ppl parties that cleared them together, then SE is obligated by their own doing to defend every single kicked player for going in the fight blind in DF. Im sure there are some laws that will solidify those arguments.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, you shouldn't run difficult content for the first time using Duty Finder if you don't research the fight first. If you want to "learn while doing", you should start or join a Party Finder group that is specifically for that purpose.

If you're going to run it using DF, you should at least research the fight first.

Dungeons are generally easy enough that the rule doesn't really apply to them.

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Except everyone says "DF is for practice" and throws a fit.