Boring Endgame

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Originally Posted by Hypie

So im not the only one who waits for that exp fix so you dont have to grind a damn week whole day for 6 lvls yes? Nice to know. Srsly the EXP is so bad for alt Classes i stopped on 54...

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Actually it only takes around 3 days to hit 60 on a alt o.o 12 hour each day and you will hit 60 just dungeon all the way but it can be boring but hey! Glamour :D

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Actually it only takes around 3 days to hit 60 on a alt o.o 12 hour each day and you will hit 60 just dungeon all the way but it can be boring but hey! Glamour :D

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I don't think i can survive that...i rather do something productive x_x

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

1. Drink beer
2. Find someone to laugh at
3. Wander around some more
4. Get another beer
5. Get into dungeon run, tell everyone "come with me if you want to live"
6. BRB, restroom run before final boss
7. Get another beer
8. Kill it, laugh with everyone, "have a great nite all"
9. Repeat.

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Beer.
Fill.
Drink.

I think there's 2 main problems here:

First, we only seem to ever get a couple types of "real endgame." So far our endgame consisted of EX Primals, and Coil. Now for 3.05, we're going to have EX Primals still (till the end of time perhaps?), and Alex Savage. Everything up to that point, tome grinding, CT, most likely the new 24 man "raid," Alex NM and such, IMO don't count as "endgame" since they're so facerolly.

We really, really need more variety in kinds of endgame content! Rather than ONLY primals (1 big boss battle), and floors in the current raid (small group of useless trash mobs in front of 1 big boss battle, usually), why not add more types of challenging content? Why not harder 24 man content focused on FC's completing it? (might not be able to be quite as difficult as Alex Savage but still harder than what a lot of people are used to). Why not have open world bosses you bring out with pop items, that are considerably more challenging than the "kill in 10-20 seconds" like hunts? Why not have the new relics require FC's to work together to complete their members' relics? Why not have more serious lower-man endgame content? 4, 5, 6 man party content? Also why not give us a reason to go back and do coil? People are probably sick of it by this point, but do we really want to completely phase out all prior endgame?

Second, here's the reason we don't have the above: For a game as AAA as this, and as polished, making ANYTHING is incredibly expensive. FFXI ended up with a wide variety of interesting endgame. Much of it wasn't really challenging at all (mostly logistics; couldn't just pop a DF), but there was massive variety and everything was always relevant. However back then video game development was a hell of a lot cheaper and SE recycled art, graphics, mobs, and zone design over and over again. I mean for as fun as Salvage and Nyzul were (at least for me and my friends), you have to admit practically every wall looked completely alike.

Fact is, maybe if SE was 99% focused on endgame they could make all the endgame raiders could hope for, but they're stretched a little thin, between the (mostly good-great) storyline, the hildibrand stuff, the pvp, golden saucer, and all of the other fun side stuff they've put in this lovely themepark for us.

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Originally Posted by Echoloc

your complaints can be applied to every game that was ever made.

Checkers, move, jump, repeat
Chess, move, capture, repeat

Find other things that interest you, either in or out, of the game and work your way through them. You find your own enjoyment. When something isn't enjoyable, leave it behind and do something else.

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seriously... "We want Variety!" No... you just want to dress ff as wow to replace that hole in you.

Different raids! - wow
4 man savage dungeons! - wow
24 man raids! - wow
Pet battle system! - wow
Talent Trees! - wow
No story! - wow
World Bosses! - wow
More Stats! - wow

The list goes frikin on. If you are not satisfied with FF anymore play wow. I left wow behind. I am not going to stand for a replica wow because WOD is not doing well.

FF may have taken some good ideas from wow, but they knew what a good idea was and what a bad one was.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

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The heck? Why would wanting variety in endgame make us want this game to be wow? If anything it'd make us to NOT want it to be wow! If anything a substantial number of people want the endgame to be more like FFXI, which is very much NOT wow (or at least it wasn't).

At the moment our endgame is clearly modelled after wow, we have nothing that compares to sky, sea, dynamis, assaults, nyzul, salvage, einherjar... the list goes on.

I would have to agree with the OP on this topic. I've been saying it since ARR 2.2. This game is VERY repetitive. I was well aware of the formula very early in the game and while I did enjoy playing it(I still do!) it's VERY boring. Let's look at the formula and see if anything has changed from 2.0:

We have our MSQ: Check
We have our leveling dungeons: Check
We have our primals: Check
We have our level 60 for tome grinding, tome gear, and Ex primals for gear: Check
then finally we have our endgame raid: Check

the formula is NO different in Heavensward than it was in A Realm Reborn. It is LITERALLY the exact same thing. MMOs are mainly PvE by nature if I had to say how MMOs are played. Before anyone says "there's always crafting, or leveling alts, or side stuff like gold saucer and chocobo leveling" yeah, that's very true. And while I do partake in some of it, it's not for everyone. On the topic of ENDGAME, you farm your weekly loots and THAT'S IT! I feel like what this MMO might need is more variety in gear and stat allocations. If all the best gear is a combination of tome gear and endgame gear, there is no room for anything else to be considered endgame and that's perfectly fine. BUT! It perfectly justifies that if that's going to be the standard, endgame is very boring. :/

the most big trouble is the fact that the endgame lack variety, we go do a raid and after? do dungeon for the weekly caps and that most of it.
the game lack variety into end game content... the trouble come from the fact that SE is scared to offer another endgame content that will be on par with raiding and offer an alternative interesting. the whole game is a straight line and it's something they need to change.

the pvp can be used for this, but what about people that don't like pvp? they need to add a pve content that can offer an alternative. like pvp have the wolve den and frontline, bother offering the same level of reward.
- dungeon is not good, Yoshida don't think it's a good alternative.
- hunt is not good either, since it's too limited for allows all the player of a same server to really enjoy it.

why not copy the frontline, for make an alternative purely pve, the goal will to face the empire, instead of 3 army of player you will have 2 army of imperial and 1 army of player, the goal will remain the same as before but instead the player will face wave of bot imperial. it's an idea like this, but it can be adapted for offer random encounter where the war is open with empire or any enemy they decide is good enough.

the reward will be a sort of token that will offer an alternative to the raid gears. like the pvp you will need to earn a rank in the army for wear it, like this only the player investing time will be able to use this gears.

The first thing i was worry about was the gear. 2.0 gear system was awfull, skillspeed and spellspeed was the worse stat for everyone except BLM. You had no choice if you was unlucky, have fun with your full skillspeed/+60 accuracy over the cap.

What is hard to give some choice to player ? just take the ilvl 180 gear, we keep the original one from vendor but we add another or two set, same cost, same skin, same vendor, only with changing stat.... and here we are, we have another choice and hard to do ? no, probably take 2-3hour of work.

I have so much more to say, materia, resistance element, enchantement, raid with more than 4 bosse every 6 months (i dont count the tower, they are totally trash and 0 challenge), hard/timed dunjon, world boss etc..

They have a gold nugget in their hand and i feel they add too many useless thing, 1 year ago i had the same feeling and i see no change from it, very sad, i keep playing and enjoy the game a lot but it is under exploited.

nice edit..... reaperking

I didn't mention WOW at all.

People in this thread should stop discussing why there isn't enough content and actually discuss about what content can be added into the game

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Originally Posted by Jayjohn

People in this thread should stop discussing why there isn't enough content and actually discuss about what content can be added into the game

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No. Get out.

There's crafting, housing, chocobo racing, triple triad, treasure maps, ex primals, PvP and other mini games too.

However I am bored right now; waiting for alex savage. Got lots to do crafting wise, so once I get out of my funk I'll be on that.

Anything else they can add to endgame would be appreciated though. I really hope they start to focus on PvP a bit more. I'd probably spend all my time PvPing between raids.

End game is boring especially if you can't seem to get in a static so you can't do things like Alex savage. Since se thinks its real cool to lock it behind having a full party. Se should really make it duty finder able to so that those who aren't in large fc's and can't find statics are able to do it to. Before you say well that's what Alex normal is for. I've been there done that got the t-shirt. I would like something new.

I think OP is asking for more sandbox endgame and less grinding...
You play the wrong game, FFXIV nearly have no sandbox elements at all.

SE has a low end-game content...
Nothing changed from the 2.X, we have only PvE content based on farming tombestones to gear up, clear Alexander like when it was Bahamuth and... that's all.
Plus, new skins are so awfull that nobody will farm for glamour.

Do it everyday, to all you jobs and wait until next update ? Not sure...

Blaming on new endgame that didn't come yet nor how hard will be is kinda... Wait for Tuesday and then cry all you want later.

I am already seeing some QQ threads after savage get released that is too hard and ask for nerf.

While I am hoping to be hard to take weeks to clear, unlike within 1 week like how was final coil, I am happy.

On other hand, having more variety would be nice. I miss the 8-man dungeons from 1.0 for endgame too, or get some alliance thing to do. Anything works as long is fun and keep us busy.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

1. Drink beer

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Why even play FFXIV then? I do half agree that this is probably more of a social game then a difficult accomplishment. You are probably going to have to make it fun in some other way or quit.

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Why even play FFXIV then?

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Why not play?

There are other things to do instead of end game content.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Why not play?

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Because you are having fun getting drunk. You could probably be doing anything. Why FFXIV?
The idea of that doesn't really solve the point OP is making. If you have to be drunk to enjoy this game then I think there might still be something wrong.

Well SonTensei, this is what happens when a game is revived on the principles of yesteryear. It's been established for a while now that themepark MMOs have a limited life span because the content they have can only maintain interest on their own for so long. The only way to keep people even playing older content is to pay them to do so via ingame currency going towards accessing newer content, which is done by locking newer content between higher and higher teirs of gear. Generally, this is done to prevent people from completing all the content and then leaving to do something else for a while until new content gets released.

If the developers want players to keep playing the game for a longer period of time without relying on a super rapid release schedule of new linear themepark content, there needs to be other elements to the game that offer experimentation and replay-ability. The glamour system is one such system, letting people fetch gear from around the game world and mix and match at will. Another thing they could build is a server side randomized dungeon creator that generates instanced zones, representing unexplored lands, that groups could delve into with gatherers in tow to get rare craft materials. Heck, maybe even make some that have to be used in the dungeon so crafters can get brought in, too.

Personally, I think the developers are avoiding the "random dungeon system" because of the copy pasta allegations from 1.0 and maybe the time investment to get it up and running. I'd like it if they put time into making such a system even if it meant I had to wait a while. If crowd funding has shown anything, people are willing to pay and wait for good things, and while some people may drop their sub when content runs out, there are people who would keep their sub up to support the game development.

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Because you are having fun getting drunk. You could probably be doing anything. Why FFXIV?
The idea of that doesn't really solve the point OP is making. If you have to be drunk to enjoy this game then I think there might still be something wrong.

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Who said anything about getting drunk? Just because I'm drinking beer doesn't mean I'm doing to get drunk.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

I beat all of the coils (t1-t13) before they got nerfed and will probably end up finishing alex savage before nerfing as well.. anyways it dawned on me and a few friends the other night..

endgame in 14 is pretty boring.
wish SE would have spiced it up with HW.

But .. seems like more of the same from 2.x..

would be nice to have something challenging to do.
Current game is like
1. grind tomes
2. learn raid
3. get weekly loot
4. grind hunts
5. repeat.
thats it..
on top of that, there isnt much uniqueness about the loot.
do something please SE

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So leave till the next expansion, problem solved:)

The main end-game contents of HW will be FC Airship exploration, which will be available after patch 3.1 & so on. It was mentioned in the Live Letters, which none of you seem bothered to care about. -__-

Sounds like your suffering from MMO burnout in general.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Sounds like your suffering from MMO burnout in general.

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Think it's less MMO burn out at this point and more so burn out from the exact same style of game. How many MMOs out there use themepark style dungeons, linear character progression, and expect people to grind out several different currencies to try and keep them occupied while developers scramble to get more content in? It's like the majority of MMOs coming out of Asia and at least a few coming out of the Western world.

Part of the problem is that they got this entire grind system lined up on top of a lot of good things that throw in variety. So people are pressed to do the currency grind to keep up even though there's crafting, gathering, Chocobo racing, Gold Saucer, etc. We shouldn't have to race to do Alexander or get our faces beat in on EX primals, but the system simply encourages it. Not to mention we want to level other classes as well, but because of that grind to get gear and access all the end game content it gets put into back burner territory. Well, unless someone has like 3+ hours an evening to grind stuff out. I don't think most people working regular hours have 3+ hours a night. Probably 2 hours at max.

1. Horizontal Gear Progression is a bad idea because it'll lead to gear bloat and having to carry a set of gear for every encounter or be kicked from the party.
2. Adding Sandbox elements can work but that mostly involves having a stronger PvP system, a variety of PvP content and maps.
3. Charater Progression can work if you buff the potency of abilities or change their affects.
4. Adding a variety of progression PvP progression like sieges and PvE progression like Assualts in instance map where we take over an enemy stronghold for relic progression. Garrisons an instance map where we can gain PvP rank.

I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed with endgame in Heavensward. It is not bad, but it brings nothing new.
It is hard to come with some new suggestion about endgame content because every time I am trying to come out with something fun, there is that big wall called "server data limit". There are good ideas in some content in this game but in my opinion it always lacks depth.
I would like to see revamped PvP, some large scale community events (not these jokes called FATEs) and stuff with more mechanics than kill, collect, bring.. maybe the ability to build small castle with my FC in instance and then defend it every day against mobs and bosses. But that is impossible while we cannot even give every player a house..

Sounds like you're feeling the same thing as me OP. Started off in 2.0, and just like now, got really bored because there was nothing to really do at endgame besides level up more jobs. But look on the bright side, everything will pick up when 3.1 comes out, just like how 2.1 threw a lot of new stuff at us to keep us going (such as the relic quests).

Sadly for once I have to agree with the critics. This week I barely ever logged into FFXIV and instead watched tv shows and played Neptunia. We have one raid, two dungeons for ex roulette, hunts and level grinding with the new jobs. Granted that's still more stuff to do than what WoW players have, but it gets boring really really fast. PLus if you don't want to be left behind with the new content you can't afford to just...ya know, level fishing for a few days instead of doing the daily grind.

Sounds like this games going to get a lot more space soon as 4 or 3 weeks in and ppl are all ready saying i'm bored yet all SE has been doing is pumping out content. Can't plz em all :P and on that note i my self am very happy and still feel there is lots to do and if i get bored the real world works

I think that ffxiv issue about the BOREDOM it's the leveling. The game is focused on endgame content instead of experience and leveling. Just think on it if leveling was a lot harder...
I remember ragnarok online. It was so hard to level that's true but hmm u get never bored.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Sounds like this games going to get a lot more space soon as 4 or 3 weeks in and ppl are all ready saying i'm bored yet all SE has been doing is pumping out content. Can't plz em all :P and on that note i my self am very happy and still feel there is lots to do and if i get bored the real world works

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"Pumping out content"?

Do go on.

I think I know what you mean, I just have a difficult time considering re-skinned dungeons as "New content" when despite being enjoyable the first run through on "New car smell" alone, once you get down to the bare bones, aside from Satasha and I think Lighthouse, every dungeon is the same formula. Trash > boss > Trash > boss > Trash > Final Boss. Now, Raids suffer a lot of the same issue being mostly "Walk down a hall and then fight a boss". But thats not to say Alexander wasn't fun, actually, I enjoyed doing it a lot, but I won't enjoy it the 30th time, or the 50th time, because the novelty will wear off... and I know why, nothing changes, its the same thing every time, and its the same formula we've been dealing with since 2.0. They've taken no risks and its all very cut and dry.

Then I have to think, why didn't I get bored of doing the same content 100 times in XI? Answer is I did, I got bored doing Dynamis because it was static, nothing changed, Sea kind of sucked cause it was too dang annoying to move around in.. I got bored of a lot of content in XI after the 80th time, but there were still several parts I did enjoy and didn't get bored of... I think about Nyzul and Salvage and they were just hectic enough that I didn't get bored of them doing it the 20th or 30th time... I think about actually fighting the NMs you had to farm pops for in Sky/Sea/etc and those were exciting every time because a lot of the time there was the real possibility of being rekt. Nyzul being the one I didn't mind doing over and over because it was "randomized" so each run was a bit different... plus NMs had a chance to spawn on each floor, including some bad a** HNMs on the higher floors.. It had built in "Don't get stale" Mechanics. Even Salvage had multiple paths for different armors...

Then I think of Dungeons in XIV, where it could figuratively be defined as an "On-Rails Shooter". You have no control over where to go or what path to take, its just a straight line and you better like it. It never changes. Same mobs, same everything, beginning to end the first time and the 50th time. I think SE does a good job with each Dungeon, I'll say that, but I don't think they consider the long term. Running any of these dungeons once is an awesome experience, its fun and new the first time and its cool to look at the new bosses and just admire the scenery. Then you realize you'll be doing that same dungeon 80 times to farm "Tokens" for your armor, on every job.

I should say FFXIV doesn't have "Bad" content, its all well and fun the first time or two and its very exciting to beat a real challenge (I cheered when I won T9), but once you realize its all you'll be doing for the next few months when its completely replaced, its not as fun the 5th or 10th, or 40th time you have to do it. So its good content for one-offs, but its bad for long-term because theres only so many times I can giggle at lifting up a totem I can only imagine weighs as much as a thousand suns.

So its not about XIV being bad, its about the fact none of the content seems to have in mind "But how fun will it be on the 20th run?" or "How can we keep this fresh since people will be spamming it as the only means of endgame content?"

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

"Pumping out content"?

Do go on.

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Oh idk the expansion just came out and 2 weeks later boom alexander 2 weeks after that boom alexander savage and new pvp. But you know ppl are not happy unless they get more more more right? {maybe don't bum rush content the first week it's out}

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Oh idk the expansion just came out and 2 weeks later boom alexander 2 weeks after that boom alexander savage and new pvp. But you know ppl are not happy unless they get more more more right? {maybe don't bum rush content the first week it's out}

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Yah, just released an expansion and already droves(Maybe not droves) of people are realizing its the same content as 2.0 but with different skin and asking for something different or actually new to spice up the monotony. That should tell you something but I know it won't. I won't touch (verbally) Alexander Savage since I don't see how taking the same enemies we've already been fighting for the last two weeks except on roids is considered "new". And as I said above, its not that any of this content is bad, its that its just too similar to what we've been doing since 2.0. So while its "New", it feels old because the formula is the same despite the new skins on the enemies.

As for PVP....I enjoy PVP... but it will be dead within a week because 80 Minute queue times due to GC restrictions aren't fun? SE has this stupid idea that PVP needs to have GC sh*t shoe-horned into it making it just the stupidest most restricting PVP system I've ever seen in an MMO. And despite the countless requests to remove this ridiculously arbitrary restrictions, they just release brand new pvp but keep the same tired Grand Company crap restrictions that make Frontline queues unbearable.

I can't even do Frontlines Roulette within 50 minutes, i just grow bored and say "fug it"... I hold out nothing for the new Frontlines. It'll maybe bring a burst of players for a short while because people are so starved for something different they'll do anything... but everyone will eventually give up on it because no one wants to sit in a queue for 40 minutes twiddling their thumbs because Non-Instanced content is worthless in a directly vertical item level game. They've even mentioned Crafted gear won't be nearly as good as it was in 2.0, so "level a craft", why? So I can craft useless gear?

I know its hard to believe but SE can do things wrong. But i'm not here saying they do everything wrong... They do little wrong and the games popularity speaks for itself but thats not to say its immune from criticism.

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{maybe don't bum rush content the first week it's out}

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If you can say with a straight face that the solution for content not becoming boring so quickly is to just not do the content, I don't see a reason to continue this discussion because thats dancing mad.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Who said anything about getting drunk? Just because I'm drinking beer doesn't mean I'm doing to get drunk.

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"Austin powers says"
Oh behave! You and I both know that everyone who drinks does it gets drunk usually(/wink). Why you do FFXIV instead of anything else is great!

Sing the thunder buddy song with me, let's do it.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

Yah, just released an expansion and already droves(Maybe not droves) of people are realizing its the same content as 2.0 but with different skin and asking for something different or actually new to spice up the monotony. That should tell you something but I know it won't. I won't touch (verbally) Alexander Savage since I don't see how taking the same enemies we've already been fighting for the last two weeks except on roids is considered "new". And as I said above, its not that any of this content is bad, its that its just too similar to what we've been doing since 2.0. So while its "New", it feels old because the formula is the same despite the new skins on the enemies.

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Ask WoW Players. There 4!! different Modes. LFR (you afk thru) Normal (like alex normal) harmode (hmmm maybe coild normal?) and mythic (coil savage).

I think we're good with Normal and Savage. And do you know why you won't touch Savage? Because they released Normal. If they did Savage right of the Bat instead you would be here crying how hard Savage is and that you have not to do beside wiping your Ass Blood Red.

I have Alexander Clear i have all my ID's done and i still have every Day something to do in XIV. I would LOVE to Level up new Classes and i dont mind the Grind Mill equipping it. But the thing that holds me up is the horrible horrible Exp Curve. I just CAN'T grind Northern Thanalan. I get a bad feeling in my Stomach just thinking abut it x_x

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

snip.

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I agree SE dose do wrong at times with some stuff that's 100% true but did ppl really think the expansion was going to be some new game? yes there's new stuff and some new ways to play but like every mmo your going to get re skin re hash content from time to time ppl wanted hard mobs in the world they got them hell ppl got a lot of what they asked for def not everything but yea. id rather have more inventory space then new stuff to do and as for pvp it was only fun until the ass holes took over and started cussing ppl out that and your right the GC tie in is dumb

I repeat. The main problem about this game and all of its content it's the accessibility. I mean everyone are 60 here. I remember on old games when u used to watch a 99 u was like WTF beholding him. I know there's in fact no difference between a 98 and a 99 in that game but there was a ton and I repeat a ton of places to go and to exp. Dungeons were Open not instanced and everyone could enter inside and kill mobs. Higher floors higher the difficulty. I remember the Payon dungeon. At higher floors there was a lot of strong enemies and a lot of ppl there to party and exp. But rat was not the Only place to level. There was TONS of different places. Here in ffxiv u just have the same dungeon to farm to gain access to the next one for a 'repeat'.