Bard and how to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Good point, it could be made into something that's only the case while under effect of WM to fix this?

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Having river of blood work differently under WM can go a long way, not necessarily needing to change how barrage works, whether it be a stacking buff or boosting your next skill in place of the reset.

Added a summary of issues which I am seeing to my 2nd post in the thread.
Added a TL;DR to it since it got lengthy

Gotta get some sleep now, but keep the idea's coming.

Hi, this is my personal opinion. From what I have experience, to play Bard on 3.0+ we need stable internet connection, unlike 2.0 Bard is suitable for lag player. Our overall DPS for each boss fight is not much different with other DPS just bit lower but for me still consider high, the problem is we need to press button on time and do not screw the rotation. If we got auto attack and can move while WM is on I think we will be Over Power. But the change that SE made is so drastic and change the play style, 3.0 Bard is hard and not suitable for new player unlike 2.0 Bard that fully recommended for new player, easy to play.

I miss my mobility, I want to move while pew-pew

I would like to hear some more input on the issues bards are running into while using Wanderer's Minuet.
So far what I tried to express in my 2nd post are the issues I picked up spread all over the forum and the ones I'm experiencing myself.

I would still go ahead and say that WM is most likely here to stay.
So lets try to look at the issues that come with the song rather than just saying the song is the issue, since chances are high we won't get rid of it at this point anymore.

I can understand that some of you are not even willing to consider bard with WM on and I am empathizing with you guys.
I am however not able to get as much enjoyment out of any other class as I do out of bard even with these changes it's still the class that appeals to me the most.
So I'm at least trying to look for improvements to the class rather than being stuck with changes I don't like and having these changes come with issues on top of it.

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Originally Posted by Neyka

From an effective dps standpoint, bards seem to be in a pretty good spot right now in terms of actual raids.

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And from a design perspective the job's gameplay suffered quite a bit. You can claim that people adjusted to it, and that much is true. Poor implementation remains poor implementation, regardless of whether the players adjusted to it or not. Hence why the OP made this thread.

Since you are asking for explanations, I'll indulge you:

The base design of BRD and WM as implemented clash because cast times and reliance on off-GCD abilities & procs don't mesh well. The intent of the changes also doesn't make much sense, since WM is introduced so late in BRD's relative "life" and implemented in such a ham-fisted way that it doesn't feel like natural growth of the job. It's no surprise that people who are just picking up the job also seem to be saying that the change is too abrupt and feels clunky as hell despite the nice DPS numbers.

If the devs want to stick with WM, then WM has to do more than just add cast times to shots. It has to change procs and other mechanics attached to BRD, maybe even go as far as change the effects of the various shots while active. If they were to do this, then you could see its inclusion as something truly added to the job instead of something tossed in for the sake of introducing change.

If that's not going to happen, then WM has to be reworked to limit its effect on the job's gameplay so that it feels more natural to the job, be redesigned for the purpose of same, or be outright removed and replaced with something else.

The last, and most work-intensive option would be to change the base ARC and BRD mechanics to fit better with WM (as the OP mentioned, removing potency from utility shots and changing the way Bloodletter procs work would go a long away in helping).

Hi,

If you are a Bard try to join the Raid on Bismark. You are useless DPS compared to Dragoons and Monks. No one needs your songs, and you feel petty for yourself and the Raid leader kicks you out.
The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.
The Wanderer Minutes adds to the pain with the alleged increase in Damage of 30% your skills are slow and you lose movement as you have to stand still.

I suffered in Bismark the humiliation and now I have to dumb this Bard job and start all over making a Dragoon. The solution by the way is simple. return to the Bard his dignity, no one wants his songs. Give him mobility and reduce or eliminate the skill time but keep the 30% damage increase.

I am sure that FF14 knows this and wants to save the BArd job, but they are too slow to respond. how disappointing

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Originally Posted by Zazago;3141683.
[B

The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. [/B] In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.

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What? If there's anything BRD/MCH is good at, its burst damage with cooldowns, barrage and empyreal arrow. Hell, bard is probably better in this department because most vulnerbility phases don't give enough time for wildfire to do its job. I've cleared bis as a MCH before 3.01, their dps isn't bad to the point that they should be benched or its hindering progression. I will only agree to the fact that current encounters aren't designed in a way (nor should it to be honest) that TP/MP regen is absolutely required to force you to bring a BRD/MCH, but at the same time a MCH/BRD shouldn't be pigeon holed to naturally dealing less damage because they have those abilities (because you know, they already incur a damage penalty when using them anyway).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

And from a design perspective the job's gameplay suffered quite a bit. You can claim that people adjusted to it, and that much is true. Poor implementation remains poor implementation, regardless of whether the players adjusted to it or not. Hence why the OP made this thread.

Since you are asking for explanations, I'll indulge you:

The base design of BRD and WM as implemented clash because cast times and reliance on off-GCD abilities & procs don't mesh well. The intent of the changes also doesn't make much sense, since WM is introduced so late in BRD's relative "life" and implemented in such a ham-fisted way that it doesn't feel like natural growth of the job. It's no surprise that people who are just picking up the job also seem to be saying that the change is too abrupt and feels clunky as hell despite the nice DPS numbers.

If the devs want to stick with WM, then WM has to do more than just add cast times to shots. It has to change procs and other mechanics attached to BRD, maybe even go as far as change the effects of the various shots while active. If they were to do this, then you could see its inclusion as something truly added to the job instead of something tossed in for the sake of introducing change.

If that's not going to happen, then WM has to be reworked to limit its effect on the job's gameplay so that it feels more natural to the job, be redesigned for the purpose of same, or be outright removed and replaced with something else.

The last, and most work-intensive option would be to change the base ARC and BRD mechanics to fit better with WM (as the OP mentioned, removing potency from utility shots and changing the way Bloodletter procs work would go a long away in helping).

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Honestly after looking at previews for MCH, I initially thought they were going with them being the stationary ranged DPS, somewhat akin to marksman hunters from WoW. Then they decided to give gauss barrel Wanderer's Minuet for bards because why not. I think these two abilities are the only ones in the game that are functionally exactly the same.

The least intensive work I'd imagine is allowing them to do oGCDs while casting or reworking River of Blood's interaction with WM. Though honestly I wouldn't mind if they rework bard or machinist either, the two have way too similar tool kits and gameflow when WM/GB is considered, with one clearly being designed around it.

Blood Letter should just operate differently whilst under WM.

If you get a BL proc whilst under WM, your Bard will fire two shots with your next Weaponskill. Potency + BL_potency together.

Alternatively, it could just boost your next skills potency by 150. Easy fix.

Didn't even need a balance check. All you're doing Is shifting the Potency around.

i personally think if they wanted us to seriously be dps they need to remove our support aspects in order to do that dps. for that reason WM should not allow you to play other songs, only give you a 15% dps boost with auto attacks allowed and not get buffed from BV, they should keep all the skills they have currently locked behind WM the same for the purpose of balance but also give us back old barrage when we aren't in it so that when we do go support and take the 15% penalty to our damage we don't feel it as bad.

as i said before when i gave a summary of what exactly i was talking about
Wanderer's Minuet: 3 second cast time
Increases overall damage by 15%, cannot be played with other songs and is unaffected by Battle Voice. effects end upon reuse
Additional effects: Barrage now causes a single target non-critical weapon skill to hit 3 times. can only be applied for one attack.


i do however agree with buffing old barrage so that it makes up for the det changes.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

I would like to hear some more input on the issues bards are running into while using Wanderer's Minuet.
So far what I tried to express in my 2nd post are the issues I picked up spread all over the forum and the ones I'm experiencing myself.

I would still go ahead and say that WM is most likely here to stay.
So lets try to look at the issues that come with the song rather than just saying the song is the issue, since chances are high we won't get rid of it at this point anymore.

I can understand that some of you are not even willing to consider bard with WM on and I am empathizing with you guys.
I am however not able to get as much enjoyment out of any other class as I do out of bard even with these changes it's still the class that appeals to me the most.
So I'm at least trying to look for improvements to the class rather than being stuck with changes I don't like and having these changes come with issues on top of it.

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this just so much this XD

i personally find that i'm slipping back into my old ways because in a lot of situations it's what's best but i just can't really do it as well as i used to because i'm basically using BL and straighter shot procs as fillers (the former of which is just me being too lazy to turn off wm cast HS and then turn it back on again).

i've found that cutting into my GCDs is often times the best way to keep the skills i want aligned aligned and it feels dirty doing it after what was basically a year of flawless oGCD management and pushing 500 dps with a 125 wep and feeling pretty damn good about myself (for extra info i live in australia playing on gilgamesh so i have inherent latency issues, i've done as much as i can to fix it but being on a ps4 my options are limited, and after basically being shown that i should never be able to dps as well as non-latency players it felt really good to even come close to fellow bards in 2.x now i can physically see just how much my latency screws with me and it's most the reason i didn't switch to ninja, blm or smn because they really aren't lag friendly classes)

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Originally Posted by Zazago

Hi,

If you are a Bard try to join the Raid on Bismark. You are useless DPS compared to Dragoons and Monks. No one needs your songs, and you feel petty for yourself and the Raid leader kicks you out.
The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards

I suffered in Bismark the humiliation and now I have to dumb this Bard job and start all over making a Dragoon. The solution by the way is simple. return to the Bard his dignity, no one wants his songs. Give him mobility and reduce or eliminate the skill time but keep the 30% damage increase.

I am sure that FF14 knows this and wants to save the BArd job, but they are too slow to respond. how disappointing

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I got my clear with a bard in the group and know many bards personally who have cleared this fight even before the WM buff. Bards are not bad dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Bards are not bad dps classes.

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BRD and MCH are the lowest DPS jobs, at the same lvl of skill ofc...
Do You need support?
Yes: Fine, take a BRD or a MCH.
No: Fine, take real DPS jobs :) or take a BRD or MCH and carry him.
http://i.imgur.com/A3oVL5m.png

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I got my clear with a bard in the group and know many bards personally who have cleared this fight even before the WM buff. Bards are not bad dps classes.

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indeed good sir indeed honestly the only issue i really have with WM is the playstyle shift and overall clunkiness.

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Originally Posted by Roshidon1

Also maybe an inherent barrage+EA skill since any bard worth his salt is going to be pairing those 2 up anyways; Why not cut the clicking down some and have every EA every 90 seconds to 3x damage?

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I worry that the devs will never take approaches like this (not necessarily identical to this, but consolidating skills in general) simply because they've designed classes so rigidly. Every class in the game gets a trait or a skill every 2 levels - with of course the exception of skills gained via quests. What this means is everyone has the exact same number of skills, so if they were to do something like bake Barrage into Empyreal Arrow, Bard would have 1 fewer skills than every other class.

Obviously not all classes in a game need the same number of skills - that's a ridiculous mould to cram every class into and it's severely limiting. They had an opportunity to introduce meaningful changes to the game when they released an expansion, and they didn't jump on that. I like Heavensward plenty, but it really didn't introduce change or improvements like an expansion typically does for a game. It's essentially 100% more of the same old FFXIV, and that's not necessarily bad, but for me it's a little bit disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

BRD and MCH are the lowest DPS jobs, at the same lvl of skill ofc...
Do You need support?
Yes: Fine, take a BRD or a MCH.
No: Fine, take real DPS jobs :) or take a BRD or MCH and carry him.
http://i.imgur.com/A3oVL5m.png

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There is no fight in this game that is so dps dependent that bringing a bard will impair the group and similar logic can be used to not bring a pally. But regardless of hyperbole and rhetoric if your teams dps is so low that bringing a bard is what is going to make it or break it then that's not the bards fault. Beyond that certain mechanics such as red/blue fire in t12 posit a situation where bard becomes the most efficient dps to handle them as they can move and attack. The party wide support bard brings was almost mandatory in final coil and once the echo was added any dps disparity became irrelevant so the nonsense of "once progression is done bard is useless" is simply nonsense.

Honestly, Bismark Ex is a terrible fight to compare dps classes with. It's probably most friendly to summoners and ninjas, much less friendly to any class that needs to sustain a buff (nothing like killing everything fast, and then watching your buff tick off while the dragon killers reel in Bismark).

That said, the Bismark Ex run I was in the other day, the top dps was a bard.

Alex 1 or Alex 4 is probably a better fight to judge dps.

But back to topic, it sounds like Bards feel like their current skills are clunky, and don't flow well together, and the fixes are more about adding fun to the class without adding power.

Just a thought. Ignoring the problems from river of blood, how would bloodletter/misery's end work if it also had a cast time with empyrean arrow? I think the latter flows really well inbetween your weaponskills since its not on GCD. It'd get rid of the 1 second of pause inbetween each GCD ability and make bard gameplay flow smoother. Although this also means that you're much more restricted by mobility and would heavily emphasize on staying still and moving/toggling when nessescary. Though I'd think this would definitely go a long way to differentiating the gameplay flow of BRD and MCH (and the concept could also be applied to MCH instead of BRD)

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Originally Posted by Neyka

But back to topic, it sounds like Bards feel like their current skills are clunky, and don't flow well together, and the fixes are more about adding fun to the class without adding power.

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These are pretty much the main issues when playing in WM yes.

The other issues that players have are more vague and concern playstyle change, mobility, lack of old rotation security, etc.
Those are not things we can come up with solutions for, unless SE suddenly lets us know that they will be redesigning/removing WM or something like that, which is not likely to happen.

Thus yea despite not really liking it, sucking it up and trying to improve on what we have might be the best course.
The other complaints shouldn't be just ignored though and absolutely looked at, I just don't think we can do much about them without SE going as far as dropping the current WM idea.

As for people that don't play bard and are commenting without putting the effort in of understanding where bards are coming from.
If you watch South Park, this is basically what it comes down to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvD9TawMqCY

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As for people that don't play bard and are commenting without putting the effort in of understanding where bards are coming from.
If you watch South Park, this is basically what it comes down to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvD9TawMqCY

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This, Just, THIS!

Seriously I don't like being some kind of turret whenever I play BRD, to the point where I pretty much abandoned the class, We no longer have the freedom and movement in combat, and Im damn well sick of people telling me its ok cause we are a support class, EVERY god damn raid will KICK you out if you don't pull your weight, so that means using WM....and before you say anything yes this does happen, Ive seen it repeatedly with the new Raid content and EX primals, it boils down to us playing the way the developers want us to or not progressing any further with the content, Of course there are some nice groups that will take pity on a BRD and let them remain in the party despite pulling the lowest DPS ranks cause we can sing for our supper...like a good little support turret should.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

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It sounds like you should have never rolled Bard to begin with. Bard has ALWAYS been support DPS, before ARR even came out it was known they would be a support DPS. Furthermore you never really needed to run around like a headless chicken bunny hopping, and you still have the option to do that during movement heavy portions (WM is now a toggle with a 15 second cooldown). Furthermore every GOOD group doing REAL PROGRESSION will bring a BRD or MCH. Why you ask? Because they bring the BEST SUPPORT in the entire game, TP song alone would justify their existance by allowing the highest DPS in the party to keep DPSing. Foes is a HUGE boost to casters, and does not affect their damage in the slighestest (and the Physical debuff by MCH is amazing as well).

Not to mention if you are a good player and can adapt to WM, your closer then ever % wise to straight DPS damage then you were pre 3.0.

If you get kicked out of raid content, you might just be a bad player.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

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"Clearly" you know what your talking about considering there are 4 roles in the game....OH WAIT...no theres not, DPS, TANK, and HEALER....NO support, and someone that isn't even BRD shouldn't even be saying anything, otherwsise you'd know that regardless of your songs most groups still require you to use WM, a playstyle we didn't sign up for is being forced onto us or we have to hang up our bows. There is no being a good player, when you've adapted a playstyle that you've used for 2 years to only have the mechanics completely turned on its side.

How would people feel if Wanderer's Minuet would make our attacks 3yalm (melee range) instead of giving it cast times?

I just don't want to use WM, I just want to have my old bard back, even just with a 10% dmg increase overall but let us keep our mobility....I feel like I spend all my time watching the hotbar to time my attacks to the time it takes to cast, Im not having fun anymore D:.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

How would people feel if Wanderer's Minuet would make our attacks 3yalm (melee range) instead of giving it cast times?

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Or they could do more damage in melee range and go down when farther away, that would be great

As a Bard that hates WM, but accepted that he will have to either use it or choose another job (hello, SMN):

After the hotfix on WM, I'm back on being top DPS on most of the fights (fuck A4, though). I feel that at least cooldowns should be able to be used mid-cast. But in all honesty, our huge amount of oGDC skills don't mix too well with the cast times. The way I'm playing, I'm giving priority to EA, SW and BL even over my weaponskills. I'll keep them off CD, unused, if I have a BL proc. It's the same potency and gives me movement. Of course, SS and DoTs priorities still exist.

Another thing that pisses me off a little bit is that cast times are MUCH MORE sensible to latency than insta-cast. I've had my BL interrupt my SS and my Barrage interrupt my EA so many times.

And the SS proc feels clunky with the cast issue. Maybe it could proc as soon as you started casting, but lose the proc if you interrupt or miss the hit. Or just get rid of it and we use SS only for the buff and use our BL procs plus other oGCDs for movement.


I don't think it's the optimal way of playing BRD right now, but it's working for me. And I don't claim to be the best BRD alive either, but I do have experience using it.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

After the hotfix on WM, I'm back on being top DPS on most of the fights.

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Im not sure if its my rotation or that Im not timing my attacks correctly in relation to the cast times, for example Id cast something like Heavy shot>>Straight shot and when Im able to as the cast bar is almost filled I cast another skill like EA or my dots, basically trying to get it so that Im always attacking despite having the cast bars...is that how its done? Like heres my typical rotation if Im fighting a boss Foes>> Blood for blood>>Hawks Eye>>Internal Release>>Blood letter>>Flaming circle>>heavy shot>>>straight shot>>windbite>>viper shot>>>By then Blood letter is up and then I use it, now I will try to throw in EA and Sidewinder whenever possible, obviously use SW when the enemy has both dots on them, and Barrage>>EA for extra damage, I don't find I use iron jaw enough to reapply dots, but thats my basic rotation, there something else I should be doing?

I got the game about 3 weeks before HW came out so I played as the old school bard for a short time but of course in roulettes that are under the level for WM. Personally I really like WM. Its pretty easy to maximize damage with it on, you may have to prioritize things that normally synced up very well but you should now be focusing on emp arrow, sidewinder, renewing dots with iron jaw and using your instants like blood rage and straigher shot when they are up while chucking out lots of heavy shots. Your own combat awareness helps you figure out when to cast a heavy shot then move out of the way of an attack and get off an instant like blood rage or straighter shot. We also now have some really nice burst for adds and things that need to be blown up to get back to the boss. You also need to figure out your own latency because you can start moving right before the end of the cast bar and still get off an attack.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

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Did you just ignore the other three letters after the word support. I didnt say straight support, i said a support DPS. They can do both, the devs themselves have stated on multiple occasions that Bards as a SUPPORT DPS. As in both of those words.
Now im not trying to be a dick here, but you and the other people in this thread are picking and choosing what you want to listen to and ignore.

So what your mechanics were turned on its side? If your a good player you adapted, hell good players could play many different classes with differing mechanics. Your just pissy because someone isnt jumping on the BARD SUCKS bandwagon. Bard is in an excellent spot right now if you can just get over it, better then they have been DPS wise for almost all of ARR (Not counting the very start where BRD was the strongest class because they could outdps everyone while still supporting.. a state it seems that all of you want them to return to).

At this point it really is a get over it or find a new class type of thing, if you are a good player it really shouldnt be that hard to adapt or change. At this point the only things you should even expect is very very minute QoL changes.

Right now BRD/MCH bring the most valuable support in the game for progressing, while bringing better DPS then they ever have been, and that isnt good enough for many of you. Frankly its hilarious.

I can understand being irked at playstyle changes, but it happens. If your a good player you will adapt, because that is what good players do. If your not aparently you take it to the forums and cry your eyes out.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

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That's what I do:

I open with:

Foe > Warden's Paean on WAR (gotta love dat no-pacification berserk) > BV > QS > HA > RS > BL > SS > BfB > IR > WB > Barrage > EA > VB > FA > SW

Then I keep my DoTs up with IJ, and priorities as follow:

IJ > SS > SW > EA > BL > FA > HS > BA > RS

If HA/BfB/Barrage are about to get off cooldown, I wait to use EA with it. Same with RS and EA.

I think they should make weaponskills under wm shoot or activate even when interrupted. However it will be hitting with less potency depending on castbar.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

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Whats that? I can't hear you, must be your opinion means squat since you're not even a bard, seriously people who don't even play the class have no room to complain about other people groaning about the gameplay mechanics, I didn't even bother reading your paragraph of post cause your opinion means little to me.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

That's what I do:

I open with:

Foe > Warden's Paean on WAR (gotta love dat no-pacification berserk) > BV > QS > HA > RS > BL > SS > BfB > IR > WB > Barrage > EA > VB > FA > SW

Then I keep my DoTs up with IJ, and priorities as follow:

IJ > SS > EA > BL > FA > HS > BA > RS

If HA/BfB/Barrage are about to get off cooldown, I wait to use EA with it. Same with RS and EA.

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Hrm, I will defintely try that out, thanks for the information. Im gradually started to understand the playstyle, its just the whole rooted in place thing and interupts with movement is something that is so alien to bards.

Quoted a bunch of the suggestions in the 2nd post so that they get more visibility.
Thanks to everyone contributing so far.

I don't mind how BRD works now, but it's structure just feels overall clunky. I am having much more fun with MCH than BRD. Between BRD and MCH, while MCH has the same approach, it does ultimately have a little more mobility since a lot of moves are actually used on procs while BRD has much more cast bars to deal with. The only real casts I have on MCH is Split Shot, Lead Shot, and Hot Shot. Two of the three are buff/DoT. BRD has a lot more abilities that require being stationary. I am not sure how SE could adjust this. Only my opinion and personal taste, not to say BRD is better or worse, but the flow with MCH just feels much better than BRD's.

This is after leveling both MCH and BRD to 60 and testing them on their currently accepted optimal rotations.

Okay. There are a few things I have noticed now that I have the new bard down. The main one is I don't remember ever being this far bellow other dps. I've come to accept WM as the reality now and don't hate it as much anymore. That being said it still needs work. Some minor tweeks and bard will be back to where it should be.

What I would like is for autos to be put in to wm and for barrage to be changed back. That alone would fix it. Barring that, revert the potency nerfs to EA and SW, also make barrage better. Allow it to crit and add more hits. Right now it's terrible compared to old barrage.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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As it is right now mch is better unless there are 2 casters in group. That being said SE is being way too paranoid about bard dps.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

As it is right now mch is better unless there are 2 casters in group. That being said SE is being way too paranoid about bard dps.

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Bard isn't that far behind the other dps classes (and esp not MCH) if they're played optimally. There was hardly any change to empyreal's arrow potency nerf when you consider the 30% boost, and sidewinder's potency reduction is more than made up with 30% across the board from WM.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Bard isn't that far behind the other dps classes (and esp not MCH) if they're played optimally. There was hardly any change to empyreal's arrow potency nerf when you consider the 30% boost, and sidewinder's potency reduction is more than made up with 30% across the board from WM.

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I disagree. Say every dps is top notch in a group and there is no break in dps and no movement. Bard is still 200-300 dps under everyone else besides mch. This gap shouldn't be so large. Not saying batd should be the same but they should be closer.

Anyways the sw and ea nerf made no sense. It would not have put us over anyone.