You can look WM and BRD from this perspective.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

BRDs have inferior DPS because they are a support class. That's the price they pay.

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From a design perspective, I don't think support alone can be used to describe them as it is just a general term. I'd say that they also help sustain the party. That is where they take a hit in terms of damage. Being able to sustain a party is pretty vital in drawn out fights.

The biggest selling point for the support DPS is the ability to sustain the party should anything go awry. A party that can't sustain itself is doomed to fall eventually. In order to counter this, they reduced the damage output by the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

You can see how screwed up that is for BRDs right?

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So you would rather have redundant abilities? I'm being rather serious here. The actual Selene buff only gives a 3% haste. There's a reason why they made it very low. For other support effect, I would love to hear some ideas from you.

I liked when my bard could fire off bloodletters like dakka dakka dakka dakka. There wasn't anything more exilherating when hearing the bow string from bloodletter repeatedly in a single GCD cycle. You can't reasonasbly fit more than 1 oGCD inbetween each weapon skill with WM up.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

It is a fact WM adds to the BRD job a degree of complexity it never had

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That's too bad boredom got me first. I won't be able to experience your idea of fun.

So, the reward for "added complexity" is getting the weakest dps position on the parser? How does it feel getting out dpsd by the Warriors that you used to beat by 200+ dps pre-expansion?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

By this argument, the very concept of a support style class is flawed and BRDs should just be pure dps. BRDs have inferior DPS because they are a support class. That's the price they pay. Yoshi has outright stated that before. To say BRDs class focus has to be limited to keep them from being mandatory is pretty unfair to BRDs. Its effectively saying 'your a broken design'.

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But it's alright for a Warrior to deal damage almost on-par with melee classes, and easily surpass the support DPS? Shouldn't they be dealing inferior damage with this very same logic? On any medium tier content the best comp is already 2 wars + 3-4 melees atm.

Fact is, bards are not really relevant and/or wanted atm. The only spot they will have, is a mobile mp bot with inferior damage output. Unless SE does something to bolster it's support/synergy/dps. Otherwise bards will be viewed as a weak class anywhere outside Alex Savage.

Bard has and always will be relevant, they always have a guareeted spot in a static.....Most classes can't say that. Bard can also output some decent dps.

You guys are flip flopping first it's not about the damage or getting gud, it's about the mobility. Then when the mobility argument is countered you say it's about the damage.

Which is it ? Jobs are balanced around raid content Yoshi P has said this countless times..If he finds that Bard is lacking come Alex Savage he will make changes.

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Originally Posted by Noira

snip.

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No one is arguing that bard will be irrelevant in Alex Savage, since the healers are aure to run out of mp anyways. But; what is the redeeming feature outside it? The only thing bard has to offer that's not in some form on other classes is the mp regen (+Foe's Requiem but that's hardly significant). What reason do I have to bring a bard into medium-tier content where mp is not an issue?

If they want to keep a bard as a support class, then it needs more exclusive support/synergy buffs that keep it relevant OUTSIDE the hardest of content. Maybe give them something that let's the other dps classes shine more, withouy boosting the bard dps. Atm the tanks are also in the same situation; on current difficulty content it's always best to run double wars for damage. Paladin/DRK will have a spot in Savage mode Alex for sure, but balancing classes only for the hardest raid is a bad design concept.

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

I felt like they tried to please those who wanted more damage and tried to appease to them and it just didn't turn out what everyone wanted.

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Except they did it in a terrible way. It would have been one thing if the BRD preview had said "we're adjusting some of the existing abilities to increase BRD DPS and designing the abilities gained through Heavensward to increase DPS at the cost of some mobility", then proceeded to change things that made the transition feel natural to the job.

Instead, what the devs did is leave the job exactly as it was for the last two years 1-50, then decided to add a stance that is basically a copied mechanic from MCH. So not only did the job's gameplay get turned on its head, but it also got a copied mechanic instead of something that felt inherent to BRD. As I've said in the other thread, Bloodletter and Windbite could have gotten a 1.5 second cast time baseline, leaving Straight Shot, Heavy Shot, Misery's End and Venomous Bite instant for 1-50 gameplay. Introduce Iron Jaws, Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow with 1.5 second cast times.

The gameplay would thus still have some aspects of what it was like through ARR but also have these new elements they obviously wanted to introduce.

if only the cast times would correlate with skillspeed/spellspeed of the bard... 1.5s for every weaponskill is slow as hell (not that I didn't add WM into my rotation) :<

I am really (not) interested in what people who dont even have BRD on 60 have to say about WM. You probably even havent seen 2 same equipped BRDs in same fight one with WM second without it. It is not fine even if other people have cast times because they atleast have the damage. If I am supposed to be banned from moving as others, okey, but then give me the DPS as others. If I am support and I am not supposed to have same DPS as others OK, but give me my movement back. Why should I deal with crappy off GCD skill management and no movement for like 5% dps boost in case I wont have to move. Thats a joke.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I am really (not) interested in what people who dont even have BRD on 60 have to say about WM. You probably even havent seen 2 same equipped BRDs in same fight one with WM second without it. It is not fine even if other people have cast times because they atleast have the damage. If I am supposed to be banned from moving as others, okey, but then give me the DPS as others. If I am support and I am not supposed to have same DPS as others OK, but give me my movement back. Why should I deal with crappy off GCD skill management and no movement for like 5% dps boost in case I wont have to move. Thats a joke.

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Let me show you how ridiculous you sound:

I am (not) really interested in what people who don't even have PLD on 50 have to say about Shield Oath. You probably haven't seen 2 of the same equipped PLD in the same fight, one with Shield Oath, one without it. It is not fine even if WAR have Defiance because at least they have the damage. If I am supposed to be holding enmity as others, okay, but give me cookies as others. If I am tank and I am not supposed to have the same cookies as others okay, but give me my DPS back. Why should I have to deal with holding aggro and low damage for like 20% DPS reduction in case I have to play properly. That's a joke.

Sorry, couldn't keep the same terrible grammar, but you can replace cookies with w/e you want.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I liked when my bard could fire off bloodletters like dakka dakka dakka dakka. There wasn't anything more exilherating when hearing the bow string from bloodletter repeatedly in a single GCD cycle. You can't reasonasbly fit more than 1 oGCD inbetween each weapon skill with WM up.

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Er... Bloodletter con only reset on a dot tick... which is longer than GCD. Whatever you encountered was a bug or bogus. Oh and as GCD shrinks, dot ticks stay at 3 seconds so...

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Er... Bloodletter con only reset on a dot tick... which is longer than GCD. Whatever you encountered was a bug or bogus. Oh and as GCD shrinks, dot ticks stay at 3 seconds so...

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Before Iron jaws (which refreshes duration of both DoTs to 18 seconds each) the DoTs were staggered, which slightly changed their damage timing, allowing Bloodletter to sometimes (rarely since you need to crit with both DoTs AND get lucky on the dice) trigger a second Bloodletter refresh literally as soon as you fired the first.

Now that Iron jaws syncs the durations and timers, that doesn't happen. Though you can still see the Bloodletter cooldown refresh twice in a row, Even without WM, its impossible to utilize both refreshes since they technically happen at the same moment.

Right now, You can hit an oGCD skill between casts as there is a full 1 second recast left after the skill fires. Except now we have Empy Arrow to fit in there and Sidewinder when its up.
The claim "we used to be able to weave oGCDs but now we cant!" is bullshlt. Before 3.0, we had BL and RoF. Blunt Arrow could be used when a Silence wasn't needed. That was it.
It was always better to hit a cooldown after a weaponskill because animations would cause you to lose time if you tried to activate multiples.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

...

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Actually ironjaws only refreshes the duration. Their individual ticks (or crit ticks, whatever) are still staggered according to someone who looked into it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Actually ironjaws only refreshes the duration. Their individual ticks (or crit ticks, whatever) are still staggered according to someone who looked into it.

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That sounds like a hell of a bug.
Also, it does not simply refresh the duration, it wholly reapplies the DoTs along with any damage or crit chance bonuses you have active at the time.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

It is a fact WM adds to the BRD job a degree of complexity it never had in the expansion (you literally had 4 GCD skills in your entire rotation -.-). No offense...but there wasn't much difference between a very good BRD and an ok BRD in ARR provided they both dodged stuff and sang.

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Stopped reading here....

The fact tha..... you know what? I'm not wasting my energy on this.

I think that the problem is that people who normally don't play the Job are trying to tell people that do play not only that the Job is ok, but also how to play it. I think people complaining about BRDs complaining need to chill out and listen more. I have BRD lvl 50, NIN lvl 50, and MNK lvl50. I haven't done any Heavensward stuff yet, so I can't comment on how the BRD job plays now. But I rolled/played the job not only because of the mobility(Not running around like crazy, but knowing that I could move when needed and still keep my dps was important to me), but because of its utility. Not support, Utility.

For example: I felt as a BRD, my job was to help with adapting to new situations. If an add popped, I felt like it was my job to tag that ass...I mean ADD..lol..even before melee dps can move. I felt if I can help whittle away at enemies and finish them off, thats less time the melee dps has to spend away from boss. Also, not only did I have range, but mobility. I could attack pretty much almost anywhere on battlefield. Add popped to my left, turn fire off shots, another popped on my right a few yalms further away, I might not even have to move to target that one. Oh, attack boss some more, reset DoTs..etc. Kiting when necessary, pulling when necessary, finishing off that mob. Having a BRD was like those movies when the good guy was like "Hey, cover me" and you would provide it.

As a BRD, I didn't ask for more dps to catch up to melee and be on even par, we asked to be SCALED properly to keep the same distance behind melee in dps, whether through scaling weapon dmg properly or scaling dps in general. IMO, BRD would be considered a sidekick, similar to Hawkeye in the Avengers. Yes, he was support, Yes he wasn't super duper like Hulk or Thor, or Ironman, but he had utility. Well placed arrow..finishing off enemy at right time. Even shifting focus from other players. Do you know how many times I have covered healers cause if they are being attacked, its easier for me to shift focus from boss to add attacking healer in an instant whithout moving, without forcing a melee thats already working boss to stop rotation, chase add thats attacking healers, losing dps as a result. Thats what BRD brought to the table.

And from what I'm hearing, SE hurt the Utility of BRD. BRD didn't get invited to raids just because of songs. That was a bonus, yes. But what I see as the problem is that alot of you who never played BRD, but maybe played with the in your group can't look past the songs. Im pretty sure if you were to go back and watch old videos of BRDs prior to this update, and actually look at what they did during fights, you would understand where BRD players are coming from and why they are concerned.

Also, I would like to point out, because I've been on these forums for a while and have read and commented on many BRD threads, that there have been a very small percentage, very very small, that asked for DPS to rival/be even/ match melee DPS. BRD's don't want to kick ass like a mnk or nin or drg, they just wanted their dps to scale to remain the same distance behind, not drop farther behind with every patch and update. With that drop in DPS, its makes it harder for BRDS utility to shine. Now, I challenge all non-BRDS to, if you have the time and ability, to actually watch what the BRDS bring to the table and how they operate. Its like music the way we flow in a fight. Take this analogy:

If party members were compared to musical Instruments in an orchestra: MeleeDPS=percussion Section (Drums), Tank =brass section, Heals=Woodwind/flutes, and Ranged DPS=Percussion(Xylophones, Timpani, Piano, Cymbals, etc) AND String section. The Music heads will understand this analogy but in case you don't understand:

Melee DPS dictates the tempo of the party, like the drums in a band. If you can't meet DPS checks, not going anywhere.

Tank is the Backbone. They are the ones that are flashy and stand out more, especially when you need a solo, like sax, trumpet, etc. When people look and listen to bands(talking classical music here) they tend to focus on drums and brass, cause they are showy and bring fun to the songs, like melee dps and tanks bring to the party

Heals make me think of woodwinds, especially flutes. They play that melody but when they need to make an appearance, they show up loud and fast, like spam healing. lol.

And now Ranged DPS. I think of their songs like the strings section. Playing in the background..soothing and accompanying the woodwinds melody(heals) with the occasional solo(think BLM). BRDS do that but a little extra. Remember those instruments in school that many people didn't know how to play, or play well, or passed them up because they didn't look interesting, like tambourine, triangle, xylophones, timpani, etc? Thats the class I put BRD/MCH into. Most of the time, a band that has those instruments has one person (sometimes two) that play all of those instruments when needed.They jump from cymbals to xylophone, from tambourine to maracas. From the triangle to the woodblocks. Each of those instruments might not seem important and even many of them seem they would be easy, but it doesn't mean they are unnecessary.

The person that plays all of those and fills those roles isn't skating by. Its a challenge. They read the same sheet music as a trumpeter and have to be on time and consistent just like everyone else. Its their utility that makes them unique and important. I am sorry about the long post. I've been trying to get people that don't play the job on a regular to understand why BRDS were upset. From what I'm hearing from most of the BRD's using WM, that its like telling the percussionist to now play with one stick or mallet while waiting for next Bar to load on your sheet music, without moving. Remember...its about Utility and adaptability with this class

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Er... Bloodletter con only reset on a dot tick... which is longer than GCD. Whatever you encountered was a bug or bogus. Oh and as GCD shrinks, dot ticks stay at 3 seconds so...

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You could weave 2 Bloodletters during one GCD tho.

I feel funny seeing people who don't know about bard saying like they know a lot. To be honest most Bard player hate new playstyle, but some of them stick with it because Bard are their favourite, same like me.

SE make a drastic change but it give a huge DPS to Bard. DRG can burst up to 1.4k Bard cant match with that the highest number I can see is 1k, but I still feel glad compare with other melee even their DPS to dummy is higher than Bard but in actual fight we are in par with them.

The rotation and timing is a bit problem and Bard not mobile like before but still agile compare with other class. If you go to Alex F4 you try check average DPS there, mostly 750-1k and bard can maintain 800 without dying a lot compare with other melee and contributes song to healer and caster. Alex F4 will be harder without Bard and I can EA 1 hit kill ADD sometimes.

BTW I still don't have Blood For Blood buff, not lvl yet DRG to 34

I do have a question about parsers which I'm hoping some will answer for me. The data that it shows in relation to DPS output, Is it measuring that output during single attacks , or is it adding it all up from beginning of fight until the end? I don't know if I'm framing my question properly.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

That sounds like a hell of a bug.
Also, it does not simply refresh the duration, it wholly reapplies the DoTs along with any damage or crit chance bonuses you have active at the time.

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It snapshots the DoTs, though the ticks are still being registered as separated instances according to ACT. Or at least that's what my friend says and he only half mains bard. I'd at least imagine it being the same mechanic as bane (whenever it actually does happen). Either case I'll concede to ironjaws going both ways or synchronizing DoT ticks; I really can't get my bard up to that level before seeing all my wasted BL procs making me rage quit.

I'd still vouch that oGCD is still pretty damn important though when it comes to being ready to hit bloodletter when it procs, having blunt arrow (honestly current content doesn't have any mobs that require silencing, and MCH has this too so you'd want to use it off cooldown if were to compare the two) and fire arrow ready. Repelling shot was also nice for the times you could run up to boss for free damage; combine that with clumsy movement/cast detection and it's become a situational skill even for avoidance. And its probably just me, but it also seems very cumbersome to even toggle off WM or other songs compared to GB when cast times are there.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

I do have a question about parsers which I'm hoping some will answer for me. The data that it shows in relation to DPS output, Is it measuring that output during single attacks , or is it adding it all up from beginning of fight until the end? I don't know if I'm framing my question properly.

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It takes into account all damage dealt in the encounter then averages it as DPS (damage per second) relative to how long the fight was. So AoE or multidotting would inflate numbers, while long phases without damage will dilute it as well.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Fact is at the end of the day it absolutely ruined Bard's playstyle, they used to weave Off-GCD abilities that proc'd for short intervals between their other abilities and now even the slightest flaw will absolutely tank their DPS.

And they used to be super mobile, we already have enough casters in this game with cast bards (oops, cast BARS) and so Bard was the only option for people who didn't want cast timers out their butt.

With MCH? I can understand the Gauss barrel cast times BECAUSE IT IS NEW. Bards? BARDS ARE OLD!!!!!!! People playing Bard for months, even YEARS didn't ask for this playstyle of casting! We already have BLM if we want cast times >.>



Bards are now just bow-mages. They aren't Bards anymore.

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Real curious do you have an alt? Because you are always commenting on both Bard and blm, none of which you even have the jobs unlocked....

This flame really gets fanned a lot. According to what Yoshi-P said in the live letter WM is here to stay, yes it can feel slightly clunky still and you get an albeit short cast on your WS it still kind of flipped my world upside down when I started using it. But after the patch it is WORTH using for bursts of damage. BRD was never boring to those that mained it since 2.0 which is why most of us reacted negatively to this tacked on ability that didn't feel Bard-ish.

For a SMN to start this thread an say I don't find it fun is YOUR opinion. You say BRD is boring cause you repeat the same steps over and over...have you played this game? Everyone repeats the same rotation OVER AND OVER.

Part 2 of my post:

WM still makes us BRDs per se, we can use our songs during this stance to support the party given the situation while still maintaining decent output of damage to get past checks. Our mobility is still in tact we only lost our run and gun style while under it...so just cycle it on and off in the given situation.

I'm not so fond of WM but it is a tool I will utilize to play/enjoy the game I actually love.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

I feel funny seeing people who don't know about bard saying like they know a lot. To be honest most Bard player hate new playstyle,

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Uh, no. MOST dont hate it. Some overly vocalized BRD's do. Most actually have adapted and are indifferent, or are ok with it. Some even like and prefer it. So I dont know where youre getting this "most" from. Honestly, since our DPS has gone back up and BRDs are getting better and better with WM, all I see are the haters nitpicking the tiniest details of what it has changed.

First off, whether or not you can or cant "weave" more BL's or SS procs into a single GCD is completely irrelevant so long as our DPS is balanced and doing well. Rotation isnt even that different! It still consists of the same GCD>oGCD gameplay we had before, minus the ability to excessively run/hop around like a headless chicken. They didnt "kill" BRD's, they changed them. And not by much tbh. We can still kick ass during movement phases. Our mobility, while admittedly more limited than before, isnt completely gone as we have time to move and shoot after every GCD similar to what we had before can still do when mechanics call for it by switching off WM. Other casters would kill to have this perk so .....

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You can hardly be given more songs...BRD was (and probably still is) borderline op to the point all statics want at least one.

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this is not a relevant comment.

there are 8 spots in a static group and all relevant content should be designed for this layout.
2 tanks - PLD/WAR/DRK
2 healers - SCH/WHM/AST
4 DPS
- 2 melee - MNK/DRG/NIN
- 1 caster - BLM/SMN
- 1 ranged - BRD/MCH

the 3 jobs for 2 slots is actually more desirable than the 2 jobs for 1 slot.

the problem in 2.x was that instead of releasing MCH and having that compete with the BRD slot, they released NIN and had that compete with the melee DPS slot.

if for any reason all statics want at least 1 BRD still in the 3.x era it's because MCH is underpowered. so the solution should be fixing that.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Uh, no. MOST dont hate it. Some overly vocalized BRD's do. Most actually have adapted and are indifferent, or are ok with it. Some even like and prefer it. So I dont know where youre getting this "most" from. Honestly, since our DPS has gone back up and BRDs are getting better and better with WM, all I see are the haters nitpicking the tiniest details of what it has changed.

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I think the person you quoted had the idea because you know there is like 10 Bard complaint threads all of which are over 10 pages, lol

But i very much agree with you

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I call BS, until you have some proof to show for that. Mainly because most of the bosses there have high-hitting cleaves that absolutely wreck non-tanks. It may be possible, but I really doubt that anyone can manage to beat the final boss without a tank. Unless you call up Titan-Egi, then yes, it's possible. So correct me if it was a Titan-Egi. Still needs proof though. @_@

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That run is how i discovered titan-egi holds hate better than most DF tanks.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

That's precisely what I don't understand. I'm banging my head on the wall trying to figure out what was exactly fun about this job. BRD had 4 GCD skills, straight shot, 2 dots and heavy shot. Your entire rotation consisted on 4 buttons. All you had to was weave your buffs, bloodletters, misery's end and if you really were serious about it repelling shot and blunt arrow between your 4 GCD skills. It was a job that literally took 3 days to min max.
Where's this fun factor you speak of?

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Sometimes people find an easy job fun.

I liked Bard 2.0 cause it was easy.

I hated Bard 3.0 at first cause it was a drastic change, sure... but then the damage buff came.

It's sorta clunky a bit still, but that's what happens when a company changes stuff up.

And I'll admit, the cast timers are annoying, but... we definitely do have it better than Magic Casters.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

That's precisely what I don't understand. I'm banging my head on the wall trying to figure out what was exactly fun about this job. BRD had 4 GCD skills, straight shot, 2 dots and heavy shot. Your entire rotation consisted on 4 buttons. All you had to was weave your buffs, bloodletters, misery's end and if you really were serious about it repelling shot and blunt arrow between your 4 GCD skills. It was a job that literally took 3 days to min max.
Where's this fun factor you speak of?

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Gallus maybe you make the assumption that most players are hardcore super elitists. this isnt the case.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

Gallus maybe you make the assumption that most players are hardcore super elitists. this isnt the case.

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Thing is some are trying to argue that SE removed the "core" of the BRD job because of mobility by pointing out how you can only cast 1 oGCD instead of 2, or miss out on some SS procs because of it. That sounds an awful lot like hardcore min/max complaints to me. Particularly when despite all that, our damage is (arguably, debatably, maybe) relatively doing better than it was in 2.0.

I can understand those who like the ease of being able to move freely and get a headstart on AoE attacks but unfortunately thats the weight they decided to take off and put on the damage side of the scale to keep things balanced. Either way, its a game play preference. Arguing how many oGCD shots we can get off now vs. then is redundant so long as our actual damage potential is equal or the same as it was before.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

snippity snip

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You posting from an alt? Because if not, I don't think a lvl 32 brd should really be commenting about what the majority of bards want.

PS cast times don't make you a blm. Still very different playstyles.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

You posting from an alt? Because if not, I don't think a lvl 32 brd should really be commenting about what the majority of bards want.

PS cast times don't make you a blm. Still very different playstyles.

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I too was curious and looked up his profile one day as he has commented on blm and did not know what he was talking about, turns out he had neither blm or Bard. So yeah no real world experience so to say for said classes. And i usually do not like calling people out but when one does not know what they are talking about, well yeah.

And it does get annoying when people say one Job is like BLM/Caster, when it is not the case (I have a level 60 BLM (and SMN) and a level 59 BRD, so I can safely say the two are in no way comparable). Yeah, so a BRD gets a "charge" bar with WM on, big whoop, but 1.5 second charge bar is in no way the same as a Casters 2.5-3 second cast bar. Yes, the difference in seconds is minor, but those few seconds make a huge difference depending on the fight (most boss AoE attacks take 2-3 seconds to cast, which usually forces a mage to move. A BRD can finish their wind-up and then move).

All WM does is limit your mobility. You can still use oGCD skills between charges. If a BLM had damaging oGCD abilities, they'd have to choose between those or another Fire IV cast (one second is enough to ruin an Enochian/Astral rotation).

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Originally Posted by Maero

I too was curious and looked up his profile one day as he has commented on blm and did not know what he was talking about, turns out he had neither blm or Bard. So yeah no real world experience so to say for said classes. And i usually do not like calling people out but when one does not know what they are talking about, well yeah.

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Yeah, I usually don't mind that kind of stuff. People can still form solid opinions on things without hands-on experience... but since he seems to be speaking for the bard community in general, at least in his signature, I feel like personal experience gained some relevance. At least, yknow, having it at 50.