We should have a "Lance mage", "Ninja Sword mage", "Fist mage"

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Originally Posted by hallena

A cast isnt just a cast. The lenght matter a lot when it come to mobility. If the boss target you with an aoe. you are MUCH more likely to finish your 1.5s cast than a 3s one.
WM isnt comparable to enochian because it doesnt have a duration. it doesnt expire when you move too much or have to cancel casts

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Exactly. 1.5 second cast time means I can slide cast quite a bit and not lose a cast because of an AoE unless it targets me at the very beginning of the cast or the AoE is extremely fast.

Yes, I will occasionally miss a cast due to mechanics. Melee will also miss positionals because of mechanics. I'd say it balances out pretty well. Especially considering when I need a lot of movement, I can drop GB and lose a bit of dps to gain a lot more mobility.

And if you're not switching stances depending on the situation, you're not playing the class to its potential.

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Originally Posted by hallena

A cast isnt just a cast. The lenght matter a lot when it come to mobility. If the boss target you with an aoe. you are MUCH more likely to finish your 1.5s cast than a 3s one.
WM isnt comparable to enochian because it doesnt have a duration. it doesnt expire when you move

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By definition a cast is a cast, we don't have different words for casts because whether it's 1.5 or 88 seconds, you're casting for that period of time. The fact BRD has lower cast times means we're casting many more times during a fight than BLM, doesn't sound right to me.

It's comparable in the sense that if moving is involved we're probably not using it, the abilities don't need to be a 1:1 clone for them to be alike. When you're not in the ability you lose spells, when we're not in the ability we lose abilities and weapon skills. You plan the usage depending on the fight. Surely you don't just pop enochian every chance you get no matter the circumstance. Lastly WM does have a lockout, it's just 15s rather than 50.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

snip.

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WM lockout begin when you manualy turn it on/off.
I posted in this thread mostly because OP go out of his way to make it sound like 1.5s casting time is the worst thing in the world, something no class could ever survive with when BLM has to deal with WAY worse and we are constantly being told to *git gud* because we want a slight increase duration on astral fire and other quality of life fix.
Your cast time being 1.5s mean you have 1 second to move in between every cast. Meanwhile black mage cast time are 3 seconds so you would have to stand in aoes and ignore mechanic to do your maximum dps. Every step is a dps loss and that is not counting losing astral fire or enochian

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Originally Posted by Panasync

By definition a cast is a cast, we don't have different words for casts because whether it's 1.5 or 88 seconds, you're casting for that period of time. The fact BRD has lower cast times means we're casting many more times during a fight than BLM, doesn't sound right to me.

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Wait wait wait... BRDs cast times are 1.5 seconds? only slightly longer than my "too short to intentionally cancel" leeches/esuna cast. THAT'S what the noise is about?

And no, shorter cast time doesn't mean more spells cast. GCD is still a thing. o.o;;

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Originally Posted by hallena

WM lockout begin when you manualy turn it on/off.
I posted in this thread mostly because OP go out of his way to make it sound like 1.5s casting time is the worst thing in the world, something no class could ever survive with when BLM has to deal with WAY worse and we are constantly being told to *git gud* because we want a slight increase duration on astral fire and other quality of life fix.
Your cast time being 1.5s mean you have 1 second to move in between every cast. Meanwhile black mage cast tim...

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Being a main BRD since release I haven't really had much of an issue getting used to it, that being said I think it should be removed in all honesty. You can't go around changing jobs core gameplay and expect the users who have learned through literally years of experience to be like, oh wow this is awesome, I'm not playing bard anymore, I can play BLM-lite with a bow. MCH was built around this, BRD it seems tacked on, and it shows.

You added onto your original post, so I'll tack this on: BRD is supremely weaker so you may be casting longer but get a larger gain from it, again this isn't are bards and black mages 1:1, it's that we were not a casting class, now we're forced into a casting class. We don't want to play a casting class otherwise we would have played black mage. It's that simple, it doesn't matter if we cast as long as black mage, we also don't do as much damage as a black mage, if you want to give us the damage I don't care how long the cast is, make it the same, but I still wont like casting whether that's .5 seconds or 3.

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Originally Posted by JarinArenos

Wait wait wait... BRDs cast times are 1.5 seconds? only slightly longer than my "too short to intentionally cancel" leeches/esuna cast. THAT'S what the noise is about?

And no, shorter cast time doesn't mean more spells cast. GCD is still a thing. o.o;;

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Esuna is not 1.5 seconds, it's under a second if memory serves correctly which makes a pretty big difference (and again, it's not the length people are upset over, it's the fact we have to cast at all). GCD is up by the time the casts end so if BLM is in a cast for double the time, it would only make sense that BRD is getting 2 casts off in the same time it takes the BLM to get off 1.

As a former BRD main, I don't care about the damage and I welcome the lack of mobility that WM introduces. It's the fact that I can only weave one off-GCD per GCD, which is a big playstyle change from 2.x BRD and really clashes with stuff like constant Bloodletter procs and short off-GCD recast times.

I'd go back to BRD if SE redesigned WM to allow weaving two off-GCDs per GCD.
e.g. An idea for WM is to force a slow walk on BRD instead of adding cast times, to give it a 5-10% damage boost + autoattacks instead of 30%, and to make it a toggleable stance with a 5-10s commitment both ways. Probably needs more thought put into it though.

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Originally Posted by hallena

lol, complaining about casting time. As if you had it hard
As a black mage i find it cute. You have no idea how i wish i could go back to 2.x BLM mobility. Which was none btw

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Well, you chose BLM and stuck with it. That's your prerogative. We didn't chose a caster but we chose the only mobile range class in 2.0 and what do we have now? bow mages.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Well, you chose BLM and stuck with it. That's your prerogative. We didn't chose a caster but we chose the only mobile range class in 2.0 and what do we have now? bow mages.

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1.5 second casts. Come back when you have 3 second casts.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Machinist was just released though. If you go into MCH or even the BRDs entering now, you know ahead of time that they job is now this, but the rest of us playing since release have been taught how to play the job like it is from 1-51, it's bad design to take an established play style and completely get rid of it due to its effect on the player base.

Not to mention they should be adding the stance much earlier in the jobs leveling, it's counter-intuitive to have the skill presented to you that late into the game when it's that drastic of a change.

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This........

I'd actually love playing as a fist mage

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I'd actually love playing as a fist mage

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Fisting everything! *cough*
Obviously all positionals are from behind or the front.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Fisting everything! *cough*
Obviously all positionals are from behind or the front.

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Bootshine more like buttshine

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Originally Posted by Trespar

It's also pretty shitty that in a video they specifically showed off the machinist's mobility when it's not a real feature at high levels. So people were expecting that the ranged classes were staying mobile, when they really weren't.

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MCH, and BRD, still have mobility even when under WM/GB. They aren't stuck to the floor. They just can't move whilst casting. Every other time they can move.

MCH do get it easier because their skillset supports GB use - Rapid Fire removes the cast times, Proc'd abilities also have 0 cast time and Ammo forces procs. It's quite fluid because of that (and you can just drop GB for movement heavy phases or learn to play like a BLM has to).

The only reason I can see this being a pain for BRD is that their Bloodletter is a proc that can happen during cast (whereas MCH procs are after a cast). This means they can lose their Bloodletters if they don't use it ASAP and another procs.

Also, when MCH was first revealed/talked about, it was specifically mentioned that they would have an attachment that would trade their mobility for damage when used. MCH always had that as part of their sell. BRD did not, however. It wasn't until the skills were shown off that BRD was shown to also have this trade mechanic. It really should have been left as a MCH unique feature and not pushed onto BRD as a means of equalising the two jobs (as they fill the same role).

And everyone who thinks that not having WM/GB is a loss of DPS needs to stop thinking so pessimistically. It's a loss of DPS potential, not an actual loss of DPS. Not having it does not lower your normal skill potencies. Using it does, however, increase the DPS potential that you can reach by boosting the damage those normal skills can do. It's like saying not having Blood for Blood is a DPS loss - it isn't. You just aren't able to hit as high of a number (potential DPS) than someone with it.

Aegis, just stop. Stop opening a new thread every freaking 12 hours just to have another reason to complain.

It's not funny. It doesn't present anything new. You. Just. Complain. Again. And again. And again.

Complaint about BRD? Check.
MCH? Check.
Hunts? Check.
Alex? Check.
Game itself? Check. Check. And goddamn check.

There are like two containment threads for frustrated bards. One's over 50 pages. Heck, you're not even level 50 BRD yet.

Hm, what I was talking about? Ah, stop spamming your whining already.

I came here with the sole purpose of posting this.

http://i.imgur.com/Vu8Im2V.jpg

I shall go now.

I played a lot of bard pre-3.0 and I'm loving MCH now. You SHOULD suck it up. Now that you can instantly apply WM you can turn it off between DoT applications etc if you want your so called "mobility". It's a good way to make skilled players stand out.


If you're not good enough to do that that's your problem, a class shouldn't be balanced around bad players.

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Originally Posted by Jattou

I came here with the sole purpose of posting this.

http://i.imgur.com/Vu8Im2V.jpg

I shall go now.

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Please rework monk into this ASAP!

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Originally Posted by Humorless

I played a lot of bard pre-3.0 and I'm loving MCH now. You SHOULD suck it up. Now that you can instantly apply WM you can turn it off between DoT applications etc if you want your so called "mobility". It's a good way to make skilled players stand out.


If you're not good enough to do that that's your problem, a class shouldn't be balanced around bad players.

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This is actually the issue (and again I hate to harp on this, but MCH was designed with the stance in mind, BRD had it tacked on). We're forced into playing in WM, I can't stand the stance, but I'm good at it, and if I want to play my job to the fullest I have to stay in it the vast majority of the time.

It's bad design, that's all there is to it. You don't reward bad design by pretending it didn't happen. If they butchered another job I certainly wouldn't be telling the playerbase to shut up because my job got out unscathed so I couldn't care less about the job I don't play. Things don't get fixed like that, and if anything they'll think twice before doing this to another job, perhaps yours, even if they don't ever fix BRD.

I certainly wasn't in MNK threads posting about how all MNKs are whining about GL stacks. If there is an issue, it should be addressed.

Honestly, I'm at the point where I'd rather they just remove Minuet. Give the Bards the new skills, buff their damage in general, get rid of Minuet, leave MCH/Gauss Barrel as it is (as I imagine the job was designed with the casting stance in mind, moreso than BRD was). At the very least we'll have our mobile DPS/half-caster/caster options and BRD/MCH will be further distinguished apart. Just give them what they want and be done with it.

SE, listen to the fans. Give them what they want, so they will JUST. SHUT. UP.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Honestly, I'm at the point where I'd rather they just remove Minuet. Give the Bards the new skills, buff their damage in general, get rid of Minuet, leave MCH/Gauss Barrel as it is (as I imagine the job was designed with the casting stance in mind, moreso than BRD was). At the very least we'll have our mobile DPS/half-caster/caster options and BRD/MCH will be further distinguished apart. Just give them what they want and be done with it.

SE, listen to the fans. Give them what they want, so they will JUST. SHUT. UP.

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I was reading your recent responses, I honestly suggest a Xanax. You could always just stay out of the BRD shouldn't have WM threads, perhaps you wouldn't snap at everyone having a discussion on a discussion board.

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Originally Posted by Themis

MCH, and BRD, still have mobility even when under WM/GB. They aren't stuck to the floor. They just can't move whilst casting. Every other time they can move.

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BLM still have mobility even when under Ley lines , they aren stuck on to the floor , they just cant move whilst casting , every other time they can move :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Themis

And everyone who thinks that not having WM/GB is a loss of DPS needs to stop thinking so pessimistically. It's a loss of DPS potential, not an actual loss of DPS. Not having it does not lower your normal skill potencies. Using it does, however, increase the DPS potential that you can reach by boosting the damage those normal skills can do. It's like saying not having Blood for Blood is a DPS loss - it isn't. You just aren't able to hit as high of a number (potential DPS) than someone with it.

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come on.... so using WM / GB is just extra DPS , no loss dps when turn it off , because SE balances both jobs around not using it...and turn it the buff on is just for EXTRA dmg....

is like mele right? they dont need to do positionals , because meh is just "extra dmg" , and im fairly sure CDs arent needed either...because is just extra dps potential

PLD /WAR / DRK dont need tank /DPS stance ...that enmity and dmg down or boost in dmg is just a "extra boost" too....:rolleyes:

we are just pessimistics.....

i find it funny that BRD/MCH live with different rules than other jobs......just "because" , i still dont know wth is going on , but BRD/MCH are like from another planet to the playerbase...

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Bards should suck it up

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That's all I read.
The original implementation of the skill was poor (3second cast time) but now that its a toggled skill with a 15s cooldown, you have the ability to turn it on and off as you see fit. If a boss fight is throwing attacks at you, toggle that shi* off and run wild. If the boss fight is in a lull, toggle that shi* on.

p.s. you can still weave oGCD's in between attacks because your cast time is 1.5s and the GCD is 2.5s.

Gauss Barrel is a dps gain when it's on and MCH mobility is fine because our procs are instant cast, allowing us to move fairly easily. Really, the only time I turn GB off is when I need to run around killing adds quickly because stopping to cast could cost precious seconds (especially on something like A3 where players have to manage tethers while still killing adds). MCH is in really good shape right now. BRD might be worse off than us, though.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

I was reading your recent responses, I honestly suggest a Xanax. You could always just stay out of the BRD shouldn't have WM threads, perhaps you wouldn't snap at everyone having a discussion on a discussion board.

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I suggest patience for the players that have made it VERY clear they dislike Minuet and that there are issues with it, both before AND after Yoshida himself said they would review the job/skills as per the player's complaints. I also suggest patience if/when a week from now (assuming there are no major fixes or changes) these same threads keep being created. I would also suggest a little patience with trying to learn and adapt to something new (as I did switching from Bard to Machinist, with relatively little difficulty), but that's not what this is about, is it? Patience? Hah, no.

Bards shouldn't have a casting stance. Got it. /topic

See you at the next one tomorrow.

I really don't get the complaints about mobility... 1.5s is such a short cast time, you should never have to interrupt your attacks to get out of AoEs. And you'll have 1 whole second to move without any dps loss. I do agree however that it feels a bit clunky to play.

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

I really don't get the complaints about mobility... 1.5s is such a short cast time, you should never have to interrupt your attacks to get out of AoEs. And you'll have 1 whole second to move without any dps loss. I do agree however that it feels a bit clunky to play.

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It felt clunky to me at first, especially transitioning between the casts and the instants, but with some practice, you get used to it.

You'll also still lose casts at times. Especially if an AoE pops just as you start the cast, especially certain one like Sluice in A3, which is a really quick AoE. But you eventually learn to minimize the loss by slide casting and learning not to move until you absolutely have to.

I'd play lance mage. Id be okay with an off the GCD stance that I can toggle to add a cast onto full thrust to make it do 30% more dmg then cancel it.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It felt clunky to me at first, especially transitioning between the casts and the instants, but with some practice, you get used to it.

You'll also still lose casts at times. Especially if an AoE pops just as you start the cast, especially certain one like Sluice in A3, which is a really quick AoE. But you eventually learn to minimize the loss by slide casting and learning not to move until you absolutely have to.

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This. And all the casts are 1.5s... which means you only have to cast for <1s and then you're basically free to move. It's hilarious how these dumb bard players are comparing it to the 3s BLM casts. It's closer to WHMs having to move while spamming cure I. It allows for a lot of movement.

I'm bothered with how they failed to address WM changing bard's outtake on their moveset from 2.0. It's not even the cast times that bother me, it's how their previous toolkit does not mesh well with it.

You thought having firestarter proc half way in your fire I proc was bad? It's worse on BRD because of the shorter cast time combined with the long heavy shot animation. It doesn't try to detect any procs until the attack actually goes off (much like firestarter, you won't see it until you see the fireball land). However, heavy shot's animation doesn't start until after the 1.5 second cast, and it certainly takes longer than a for the full cast animation, even if you cancel it with an oGCD. MCH certainly does not have this problem because split shot's animation is short enough to accommodate it (even a 1.5 GCD during rapid fire), nor are you getting a heavy loss from trying to hit clean shot after a slug shot (not that you would anyway) unless you have ammo.

Then there's River of Blood. To my knowledge, BRD and DRK are the only classes that has an oGCD that can have it's cooldown reset. With a 1.5 cast time, you'd only be able to weave in 1 oGCD unless you had a straighter shot proc for an instant cast. That's bloodletter, Blunt Arrow (because we have yet to have a boss that requires silencing, even if we include 2.0), repelling shot, flame arrow, empyeral arrow and side winder. If you're not using bloodletter when its on cooldown, it's wasted dps. If you're not using empyereal arrow when it's off, its wasted dps. So on and so fourth. It creates a loss-loss situation for bard where in 2.0 people needed to keep an eye on it or weave it and another oGCD if it did proc..

I'd be fine with turning it off, if bard dps wasn't balanced around using it in the first place. It's not buffing our dps relative to how it was 2.0, it's there to keep us at that relative dps to other classes.

Someone mentioned this in a another topic. The problem is not the cast time itself, its the problems that come from having a cast time, specifically how it does not meld well with bard's original gameplay. I'm just disappointed to all the responses (especially from interpretation of the live letter and a certain youtuber) is to "git gud" or "deal with it". Well, I'm dealing with it by changing my main to MCH, because it's just annoyingly frustrating that my bard has to have its gameplay completely changed instead of having new abilities to add onto it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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So many times thus far have I popped a Heavy Shot then proceeded to immediately fire another since nothing else was up, only to see Straighter Shot proc. Then of course going to pop the Straighter Shot to just see the buff note for another Straighter Shot proc, essentially a wasted proc just passing by, lol. You wouldn't think it'd happen so often, but it would just be my luck!

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

So many times thus far have I popped a Heavy Shot then proceeded to immediately fire another since nothing else was up, only to see Straighter Shot proc. Then of course going to pop the Straighter Shot to just see the buff note for another Straighter Shot proc, essentially a wasted proc just passing by, lol. You wouldn't think it'd happen so often, but it would just be my luck!

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Did you see BLMs crying about double Firestarter procs? Just use it 1 GCD later.

Oh relax and speak for yourself, not all BRD's hate WM because of the cast times. They hate it because the DPS sucks even though we're now semi-grounded.

Although a melee class with long wind-up cast times would be interesting to try out, lol. Maybe a class with a large 2H Weapon like DRK or WAR but obviously not them since theyre tanks which need aggro ASAP. Samurai on the other hand would fit great, so long as its DPS.

Just don't mash, you really do hav e plenty of time to react to it if you're not m,ashing the button.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Did you see BLMs crying about double Firestarter procs? Just use it 1 GCD later.

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Doesn't work that way as Straighter Shot proc doesn't stack. Say that you get the Straighter Shot buff on the skill. Well if you use Heavy Shot while that buff is active, the game will still let you proc Straighter Shot, even while you have one ready. So that other proc you got while that buff was sitting there just disappears.

And as it goes under Minuet, if heavy Shot were to proc Straighter Shot, it wouldn't be until well after your GDC is done, which means unless you sit there and watch Straight Shot to see if it lights up, you could very well use Heavy Shot again only to then see Straighter Shot proc and of course, have the potential to proc another one which just dumps into the void.

And even better: If you were to cast Heavy Shot and then Straight Shot to refresh your buff, if you actually do happen to get a Straighter Shot proc it can show up mid cast of your Straight Shot and not apply, meaning you have to pop Straight Shot again to use the proc.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Just don't mash, you really do hav e plenty of time to react to it if you're not m,ashing the button.

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I've watched it and it can proc well into half the cast of another ability. I dunno about you, but soon as GDC comes off I'm going to be using something, and if all my OGDCs and Empy Arrow is off I'm going to use our trademark shot. Sure, either I can just cancel the cast or just sit there for half a second, but should I really need to stop my shit just because they couldn't be bothered to adjust the proc timing?

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Originally Posted by Kayote

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It'd be more like giving cast times to monks (which doesn't get canceled while moving). Now the problem they run into is that it doesn't keep up with GL3 and their insanely short cooldown from it. Their cooldown finishes before they get the buff for their next form, so they can't even begin casting the next ability. And that's only half of the problem, the otehr half I can;t make a comparison because monk doesnt have a oGCD that can reset at any time (and you'd have to delay it because of cast times)

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Doesn't work that way as Straighter Shot proc doesn't stack. Say that you get the Straighter Shot buff on the skill. Well if you use Heavy Shot while that buff is active, the game will still let you proc Straighter Shot, even while you have one ready. So that other proc you got while that buff was sitting there just disappears.

And as it goes under Minuet, if heavy Shot were to proc Straighter Shot, it wouldn't be until well after your GDC is done, which means unless you sit there and watch Straight Shot to see if it lights up, you could very well use Heavy Shot again only to then see Straighter Shot proc and of course, have the potential to proc another one which just dumps into the void.

And even better: If you were to cast Heavy Shot and then Straight Shot to refresh your buff, if you actually do happen to get a Straighter Shot proc it can show up mid cast of your Straight Shot and not apply, meaning you have to pop Straight Shot again to use the proc.

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Firestarter doesn't stack either. They also have no reason to ever use fire III outside of fire starter anyway. Bards need to refresh straighter shots if it falls off. And if it happens to proc in the middle of your straight shot proc, then lol. Although BLMs also don't have an oGCD ability that has cooldown reset. There's a reason for that; cast times don't allow for proper oGCD use. Their only oGCDs are buffs , not attacks.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Doesn't work that way as Straighter Shot proc doesn't stack. Say that you get the Straighter Shot buff on the skill. Well if you use Heavy Shot while that buff is active, the game will still let you proc Straighter Shot, even while you have one ready. So that other proc you got while that buff was sitting there just disappears.

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So what you're telling me is... it works exactly the same as Firestarter procs.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

So what you're telling me is... it works exactly the same as Firestarter procs.

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Then why did you say:

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Just use it 1 GCD later.

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I can't use it later if it just falls off. That's the issue, if another procs while I just casted another Heavy Shot, then it feels like a wasted proc.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Firestarter doesn't stack either. They also have no reason to ever use fire III outside of fire starter anyway. Bards need to refresh straighter shots if it falls off. And if it happens to proc in the middle of your straight shot proc, then lol. Although BLMs also don't have an oGCD ability that has cooldown reset. There's a reason for that; cast times don't allow for proper oGCD use. Their only oGCDs are buffs , not attacks.

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Should a flawed design really just be accepted just because? I'd be just as irritated with fire starter as well.

And this does goes to show how crudely implemented Minuet was implemented considering a sizable part of a Bard's kit was OGDCs.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

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Should a flawed design really just be accepted just because? I'd be just as irritated with fire starter as well.

And this does goes to show how crudely implemented Minuet was implemented considering a sizable part of a Bard's kit was OGDCs.

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IT really doesn't. I'm amazed that it didn't get addressed at all since the proc detection could be done at finishing the cast bar rather than the attack. I don't accept what WM does for bards either...which is why I'm not a bard anymore.

Jesus, does the OP ever stop complaining?

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Jesus, does the OP ever stop complaining?

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Main Class
Lancer Lv 60

Not. A. Bard.

Bard has been suffocated by casting times and needs help, it doesn't even play close to how it did before.