How do you deal with sluggish tanks?

Down time cuz of getting quick tips from FC/LS chat right then and there.
Or FC/LS chatting to their friend in the same party on how to do the coming fight.

Down time is fine.
Ppl naturally get faster after re-runs.
Too bad. But deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

How do I deal with sluggish tanks as a BLM? I pull. And then if the tank just sits there after that pack is dead and complains that I should have patience, I pull the next pack too. Rinse/repeat until we're at the boss or until we get a new tank.

I don't mind tanks pulling at a leisurely pace but, largely, people don't have time to spend an entire hour on a single dungeon that can be completed in 20 minutes.

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Had a JP player like that.
"You pull - you deal with it"
BLM got wrecked and QQ-left before could dismiss.
Good riddance.

Shoulder Tackle, Featherfoot, Keen Flurry, Second Wind, Bloodbath, deal with it.

Either you wind up with a healer who's just as impatient and is happy to have someone to heal, or they're a cream puff megababby and let you die because "you didn't follow the role rules"--not that it's any slower than waiting for the PLD to wait for Sentinel, SS himself, and tie his shoelaces before every pull.

In pve be good is to be fast. That's all. It's so easy that nothing else count more than speed.
If you're lvl 50+ you have to know how to manage your mp as a healer, how to manage your suvivability as a tank and how to optimize your dps as a damage dealer regarding the situation.

It can happen tanks or healers make a mistake... no problem, just try harder. But don't act like a psychopath bipolar. Go fast, go furious !

I met one of them in the Aery yesterday. so many groups of enemies in this place will have more dragons join up the fight later and the tortoise tank pulled every group of enemies back 30 feet to avoid the adds. it's so annoying. even non-60 tanks can pull more than one group but that tank tried to split them.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

and tanks that watch people die should be kicked for trolling.

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Sorry disagree with you on this. If you pull it without waiting for a tank first, then you can die and get the trip back to the beginning of the dungeon. Only time I will intervene is if the healer tries to heal them. Other than that, well take the lesson and learn from it. And if I get kicked for being a "troll" as you call it, then so be it. If anything the DPS ought to be kicked for the same reason.

I look at it this way-- you're killing the same amount of health anyway among the mobs, so I don't care if the pack is big or small. A tank can still move at a steady pace between packs and you aren't going to lose that much time.

For example, when leveling my MCH in DD, I had tanks that pulled the entire pack and tanks that just pulled the packs near the crystals. Sometimes, pulling the entire pack actually took longer to kill because I was running out of TP trying to spam my AoE with no chance to really regen it outside of Invigorate. Now if we had a BLM or some something, it might have been easier, but we didn't. We had two TP users who ran dry quickly instead.

It's not the size of the pull that matters, imo, it's the pace you set in between.

I'm fairly patient, though, as well. I don't need a tank to be constantly charging from group to group (though I wouldn't want them standing around for minutes between pulls either).

If they know they are being sluggish then that's the problem, if they are doing it by accident or they are new then that's ok with me.

Tanks that are slow for no reason should be vote kicked and just re que.

I just try to dps as hard as I can, so the dungeon goes by faster.

I always run my full opener with all CDs on trash (except consumables, cause I'm not rich). Everything is back up by the time you get to the bosses anyways, or they'll come off cd in the middle of the boss fight.

You can't do much about slow tanks/healers, except be fast yourself.

See, to me, it's not even about being in a rush to finish a dungeon. most dps these days have buffs they are struggling to keep going. Greased Lightning, Blood of the Dragon, Aethertrail, Enochian, Huton. In most cases, if these buffs fall off, they are lost, either until their timer resets, or their stacks are built back up from the ground up. It is the most frustrating thing to just watch your buff, and with it, your dps potential, tick down, with nothing you can do to stop it.

And I don't just dps. I tank too. Short of Alex Savage, I've tanked every dungeon in this entire expansion many many times, there is (with very few extreme exceptions) no good reason you can't move from group to group in a swift manner. And if your philosophy is that you can go as fast or as slow as you like, and the rest of the party doesn't matter, you are a terrible tank, and I will be glad to vote kick you for harassment.

Vote kicked for Harassment because they aren't moving at a pace you like? That's a bit extreme and a good way to get yourself reported. There's no harassment on there unless the tank is sitting there rubbing it in your face.

Still don't understand the lack of patience these days.

You are harrassing people by being a noob and pulling at the speed of a snail, if anyone can be reported it's the tank ruining everyone elses time, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I don't know what's their problem. like 80% of the tanks I met are super slow and keep wasting time before each pull, then waste another minute standing infront of the boss. sometimes 3 minutes if it's the last boss. always waste time until my buffs disappear.

these slow paced tanks are so annoying. and the ready check is annoying too.

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As a Ninja you don't have buffs that you activate pre-pull that can just "disapper". If you have, you're playing the job wrong.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You are harrassing people by being a noob and pulling at the speed of a snail, if anyone can be reported it's the tank ruining everyone elses time, not the other way around.

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Wow... That is attitude is just... Wow. Apparently being new at something and taking your time is now a form of harassment. Let me guess, you believe a new employee at a job who isn't moving at full speed is harassing the other employees, too? I will never understand the utter lack of patience and understanding from a lot of gamers. It's like a bunch of children throwing temper tantrums. I honestly pity people like that. Everyone was new once and everyone had to learn. Why people can't understand that is beyond me. Complete lack of empathy.

And for the most part (there's always exceptions), if someone is moving slower it isn't because they're trying to be malicious. It's what they're comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You are harrassing people by being a noob and pulling at the speed of a snail, if anyone can be reported it's the tank ruining everyone elses time, not the other way around.

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I mean that's not harassment, that's a player playing the game at the speed they are comfortable with. Tanks are already in short supply, so especially when a tank is new to a dungeon or whatever, it's best to let them get the hang of things or we will have even fewer tanks. No tank pulls slowly forever unless the other players are harassing them, which happens quite frequently. Decent tanks and healers get harassed constantly in every game I have ever played for every little thing, and it's completely unnecessary. So your AT stacks, Enochian, GL3 fell off. Big deal, you can handle it. It'll come back. And this is coming from someone who's basically a career DPS in this game.

Meh, you get a few bad eggs. I know i've been vote kicked for not pulling large groups when i felt that the group couldn't handle it ( I always do the first small group to gauge DPS and healing ability before doing large pulls). If that happens you can simply re-queue, it's not like we have a long queue when entering it on tank.

Bad attitudes happen and if they wanna wait 10-15 minutes for another tank and slow down their entire run then hats off to them.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

I always do the first small group to gauge DPS and healing ability before doing large pulls.

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Yeah same. Always do a quick test along with checking both the healers and the dps gear to see what they could be potentially do during the pulls. If the DPS think your going slow, then they can tell you and you can pick the pace up.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You are harrassing people by being a noob and pulling at the speed of a snail, if anyone can be reported it's the tank ruining everyone elses time, not the other way around.

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If the tank is a noob to that dungeon, entirely possible their gear isn't high enough lvl to pull multiple groups of mobs. Also how the hell is it harassment? If you want to go down that road, you could then say that the players who bring bad dps to the dungeon are harassing as well. Can guarantee that will go down absolutely brilliantly/s

As a tank, I just ask the group at the start of a dungeon how fast they want to go. I haven't had any complaints, at least not on speed of completion, when everyone agrees on a pace before I start pulling.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Wow... That is attitude is just... Wow. Apparently being new at something and taking your time is now a form of harassment.

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I don't agree with the harassment part but first of all people know when someone is new to a dungeon. That said even being new isn't really an excuse, the only thing of note is boss tactics which a tank would be asking about and would be known why there is waiting. For trash though, by the time people are in 50+ dungeons, and especially ex roulette there's no need to not go from pack to pack at a steady pace. The bosses in both those dungeons are a joke do we really need full mp/tp stoneskin, all cooldowns and ready check? no. It really does such watching aethertrail count down because the tank can't manage to pull the next pack that's 5 feet away in 30 seconds.

I've played a tank in several MMOs, my secondary role is usually healer. I typically keep the pace as fast as all other factors allow. Before the dungeon starts I ask if everyone has either done the dungeon or seen a video on it. If someone says they haven't, I tell them I'll let them know mechanics for boss fights if there are any important one. Other than that, I only pause for a second before mob pulls just to make sure everyone is with me (don't want to pull and the healer is way behind). Other than that, only time I'm pausing is for CD, TP, or healer MP.

I also have one rule for impatient DPS that try to pull before me and I let it be known as soon as I enter a dungeon. You pull it, you tank it. I don't try to do your job, so don't try to do mine.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Vote kicked for Harassment because they aren't moving at a pace you like? That's a bit extreme and a good way to get yourself reported. There's no harassment on there unless the tank is sitting there rubbing it in your face.

Still don't understand the lack of patience these days.

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Admittedly I wasn't very clear. If one were to vote kick the tank without trying to at least reason with them, or give plausible cause, then yes, that would be a bad on me. However, if a request is made for the tank to try to speed up a little bit, just so we don't lose our buffs, and they reply, as many of the tanks in this thread have with "I'm the tank, I can pull however I want" That is a fair harassment call.

Also the impatience isn't about finishing the dungeon faster, it's about trying to keep these stupid buffs going. Try playing a couple of these dps in the 50-60 dungeons. You'll see how frustrating it can be.

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Originally Posted by iAmScallywag

I also have one rule for impatient DPS that try to pull before me and I let it be known as soon as I enter a dungeon. You pull it, you tank it. I don't try to do your job, so don't try to do mine.

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I'm fine with this, I just go AFK when I die anyway these days. Until the pack of mobs/boss is finished/everyone is dead. I don't usually pull ahead of the tank, but sometimes I do aggro stuff, and if tanks let me die for that, everyone else can ck up my slack.

Y'know what I hate? This culture shift to this speedrunning, bean-counting, impatient track race where there's no time to enjoy the game.

Sweetheart, rushing through the thing from start to finish is gonna save you maybe a minute, whereas dying due to a stupid pull is at least a good 30 seconds of jogging.

Calm down and grab a cookie or something, you're gonna be fine.

Best way to deal with sluggish tanks is by playing Ninja, charge in and give him all the aggro. :3

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Y'know what I hate? This culture shift to this speedrunning, bean-counting, impatient track race where there's no time to enjoy the game.

Sweetheart, rushing through the thing from start to finish is gonna save you maybe a minute, whereas dying due to a stupid pull is at least a good 30 seconds of jogging.

Calm down and grab a cookie or something, you're gonna be fine.

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I'm pretty sure a lot of people genuinely enjoy speedrunning more when you've already done a dungeon a few dozen times. That said, SE is actually doing a bang up job of preventing speedruns in recent dungeon design - back in Wanderer's Palace Normal Mode you could do door-to-door pulls and actually survive if you knew what you were doing. Now we're not even given that option because there's artificial roadblocks all over the dungeons that prevent us from moving forward until each pack of 3-5 mobs is dead.

Also, a good speedrun with efficient pulls and good DPS (even in godawful places like Neverreap) will easily save you 10+ minutes compared to an average run.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Also the impatience isn't about finishing the dungeon faster, it's about trying to keep these stupid buffs going. Try playing a couple of these dps in the 50-60 dungeons. You'll see how frustrating it can be.

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as a fellow dps who has taken a few classes through the 50-60 grind, really just relax about keeping those buffs going. your average tank doesn't take 30 seconds between each pull so refresh your AT stack as the last mob is dying and you're fine. Honestly, people who are uptight about temporary buffs falling off between pulls just need to chill out. It's going to be a thing that happens, so just get used to it now. Those buffs will be back before you know it, and yes, that includes AT/dreadwyrm. Otherwise, run with your FC.

When you run with a DF tank, don't expect them to play at an elite level or even an above average level. People who respond the way you claim are likely players who have been harassed to no end on their pace (which probably isn't even THAT slow, realistically you'll save only a couple of minutes if they pulll a little faster, or less) and are therefore on edge about it. Use kind language if you really feel it's necessary and if they are upset, be apologetic. Some people simply do not get better and have a bad experience when they are forced to do things they didn't plan for or don't feel comfortable with. As long as they are tanking and keeping aggro, that should be good enough for a DF group... otherwise, run with your FC.

I personally don't mind speed runs no matter what I am playing, but I am never going to force a tank to do more than they feel capable of. You're just asking for a bad time regardless.

I don't feel particularly comfortable in a dungeon until I've tanked it 3-4 times. I also don't particularly LIKE doing speedrun pulls. I find them too hectic and not enjoyable. Would rather pull 1-3 packs max if possible. Thankfully most of the Heavensward dungeons are setup to do exactly that: 1-3 packs max.

Also, unless the tank says it, you DON'T know if they are new to tanking a dungeon. I'm a DRG main, but I definitely go at a slower pace when tanking a dungeon for the first couple of times until I feel comfortable gauging how much damage each of the packs do, most efficient targets to kill first, what to save stun for etc. I get some of that from observation as a DRG, but nothing quite like experience to start feeling comfortable with it. It's not my primary role, and I haven't had 9+ months of experience playing my DRK like I do my DRG, so I'd rather pull smaller and safer than cause wipes due to "growing pains."

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Admittedly I wasn't very clear. If one were to vote kick the tank without trying to at least reason with them, or give plausible cause, then yes, that would be a bad on me. However, if a request is made for the tank to try to speed up a little bit, just so we don't lose our buffs, and they reply, as many of the tanks in this thread have with "I'm the tank, I can pull however I want" That is a fair harassment call.

Also the impatience isn't about finishing the dungeon faster, it's about trying to keep these stupid buffs going. Try playing a couple of these dps in the 50-60 dungeons. You'll see how frustrating it can be.

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MCH is my main... I literally don't use my main damage on packs for the most part because I risk going into bosses unprepared and losing a lot of dps on wildfire. I know how it is, unfortunately. :/ Being so cooldown reliant for dps is terrible for trash pulls.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

MCH is my main... I literally don't use my main damage on packs for the most part because I risk going into bosses unprepared and losing a lot of dps on wildfire. I know how it is, unfortunately. :/ Being so cooldown reliant for dps is terrible for trash pulls.

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I always end up doing "lazy DPS" on the last pull (especially if it's small) just so I have everything up for last pull as well. The first pull or 2 (depending on dungeon) I'll throw out the mid-length oGCDs, and pop the 60s or less ones more or less freely, unless the last pack is small. Then it's lazy DPS all the way.

As a DRG main, I'm definitely annoyed when a slow tank makes Blood of the Dragon fall off. That said, learning when you can pop cooldowns without being screwed for boss fights is what dungeon mastery is all about for me these days. On an average run I know that I can pop some stuff during each boss fight and again on the first trash pull after, and it'll come off cooldown just in time for the next boss - it just takes practice and planning ahead.

On the topic? I don't know, maybe talk to them like adults and if they're not interested in speedrunning the dungeon then accept that i'm going to take maybe 10-20 minutes more? I don't know, just seems like "This player isn't playing how I want them to? BOOT THEM" seems like a really, really warped viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by UncleCarmine

On the topic? I don't know, maybe talk to them like adults and if they're not interested in speedrunning the dungeon then accept that i'm going to take maybe 10-20 minutes more? I don't know, just seems like "This player isn't playing how I want them to? BOOT THEM" seems like a really, really warped viewpoint.

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Yeah, I don't see how people can go into a Duty Finder group and expect some kind of speedrun every time.

Not to mention that half the crap people do to try to "speed up the run" ends up actually costing more time in the end, but they can't get past the idea of "big pull = fast".

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Yeah, I don't see how people can go into a Duty Finder group and expect some kind of speedrun every time.

Not to mention that half the crap people do to try to "speed up the run" ends up actually costing more time in the end, but they can't get past the idea of "big pull = fast".

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Those big pulls with an AST as your healer and a NIN and a MNK as your DPSes, "but I'm making things faster!" Kappa

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Originally Posted by spelley

Those big pulls with an AST as your healer and a NIN and a MNK as your DPSes, "but I'm making things faster!" Kappa

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It still makes it faster even with NIN as your dps, MNK aoe dps is decent now also. As long as you aren't wiping the group it is faster.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I'm pretty sure a lot of people genuinely enjoy speedrunning more when you've already done a dungeon a few dozen times.

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I totally see that. And when I'm with my FC in a terrible place like WP Hard Mode, we absolutely do that! But that's a closed group. These people using the DF and then troll-pulling to force speedruns are seriously doing nothing except exacerbating the tank shortage.

People here keep assuming the tank always has a reason. If they have a reason like waiting for TP or healer MP and such then that is perfectly fine.

But there are also plenty of tanks that just stand there for seemingly no reason. Those are the ones that upset me

Also: (sorry on mobile so cant edit my previous post for some reason)

I dont think when people say "slow tanks" they necessarily mean ones that are not speedrunning. I could care less if a tank is speedrunning or not as long as they arent spending a full minute between trash pulls for no reason

Never had a problem on resources(tp,mp, ect) as a tank. Healer does sometime, when they get down to about 3k. I normally stop and make sure they've got some means to recover it. But most of the time their helping DPS. ;x

I think speed running is strawmanning here. The OP isn't talking about speed running, just constant pulling. I don't like speed running myself but I also don't like sitting around for 45 seconds between each pull staring at the skybox. When one pack of mobs dies the tank should be running to the next unless there's some reason not to. Same for a boss, when everyone is at the line pull it.