Disappointed by Alexander (story) difficulty, fear Savage difficulty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onikimaru

Now if they nerf savage, oh boy is there going to be a shit storm, and you better believe its going to be bad!.

---

I'm guessing you didn't see the very, very low percentage of NA who cleared final coil? Or even t9? I'm guessing that the 85-90% of the player base who is happy to have an accessible way to get to see the story of the Alex raid will be dismissed when that tiny percentage rages? SE has made story mode Alex what it is - savage will probably be, well, savage. You can't expect them to make 3 versions of the same raid just so that the 'low', 'medium', and 'hardcore' crowds can have something tailored to their skill level and or time commitment. If you really want something harder than HM, and think you're currently 7/10, then why not just get to 10/10 and do savage? Since it seems you'd rather take the harder route anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odett

3/10 Alex difficulty is redundant because that's what the majority of endgame falls into.

7/10 Alex is necessary to give the more casual coil crowd some progression.

If you're a 3/10 player, do 7/10 content and maybe you can become a 7/10 player.

---

That didn't make any sense. You expect an incompetent player to raise by 4 but the actual progression raider can't raise by 3? lol...

But the 3/10 alex is necessary because the 5-10/10 players have to carry the 0/10's through in DF.

Had they just made this raid content as difficult as t1 thru 5 and made it so when you DF it you could select a story mode difficulty then none of this would be an issue.

I agree with the OP this type of raid content will get old fast and people will be on hiatus faster and faster. I dont mind if they make things easier but it should be an option, not where the raid starts.

I would imagine majority of non hardcore players are happy with the story mode raid. I know I am. I doubt I'll even be doing savage mode..cause don't really care about the difficulty. Just didn't want to miss any of the story content in the game which is one of the main reasons I play for, not some overstuffed challenge that just gives me a headache from beating my head against my keyboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onikimaru

...SE directly made the assumption that you're either extremely hardcore, or you are a half retarded 10 year old that plays by banging your head against a keyboard.

---

Wow has 4 difficulties of the same raid exactly to avoid this kind of thinking and people aren't too happy with that.
I think it's fine to have 1 hard mode and 1 easy mode, you just can't please everyone and this game has plenty to offer outside raids, so players can do what/when/how they like.

I also think Alex NM is a good idea because...i dunno...it's kinda fun?

Ive done all the hardcore stuff...but ya know...I'm actually just enjoying hopping into Df with a few friends, not having to organise a full party of 8 who all do high dps and know the fight perfectly and have to be on TS to do it. I can actually have a bit of a laugh while doing these raids. Yeah we will get savage and be all raidy and serious then, but NM is a welcome relief in all honesty.

It also eliminates the picking and choosing of who you invite along. "Oh don't invite bla cos his dps sucks". This was the whole point. Savage for raid teams, NM for everyone else, and I'm really enjoying it so far

Quote:

---

Q8: Currently, there are a lot of content for the hardcore users and the casual users, but not many for the mid-tier users. Are there any plans to implement additional content for the mid-tier users that are able to beat Crystal Tower, but not the Coil of Bahamut?

A8: In the upcoming expansion, we will be introducing a new content for the mid-tier users which is currently referred to as “free company craft” (final name TBD). Additionally, we are planning to implement normal modes and hard modes for the raid dungeons. Please look forward to it!

---

Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XVIII

/thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KyteStones

-people complaining about BCoB nerfs. Have any of you even remembered you can turn off the echo buff and play it as it was intended?

---

Except for FCoB, it was way more than echo. The other changes can not get clicked away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KyteStones

you people who liek to spend 12 hours on one floor and get nothing done to go to to bed all pissed and angry

---

Really. You played with the wrong people. Ragers will not make serious progress at all. People that can not keep relaxed and funny when failing over and over again are not people that should do this kind of stuff.

BTW: In my eyes the story mode of Alex is okay. Just A4 could get a wall again, when current people have done collecting their gear.

I'm pretty sure they stated that the hard version was fairly on par with FcoB, maybe a little harder. It definately won't be like coil savage. Yoshi mentioned possibly adding in a mode harder than savage but wants to see how much demand is for it first (Probably not much).

My biggest problem is, now that I've done the normal mode, saw all the arenas, beat all the bosses... seen the cool mechanics they do, ect. What the heck is the point in doing the harder mode? Unless you really just have fun wiping over and over with friends on really hard bosses. What are they going to add to savage mode to seperate it from the easier mode? We will find out in 2 weeks but if the answer is nothing, then that is bullshit imo. They need to do something to make savage different then the easy version. Whether it's completely new bosses or completely different phases you can't do in the story mode, they need to do something imo. But if it's just the same fight but now there is 6 lasers you have to kill enemies under this time instead of 2, that is incredibly lame.

@OP:

If i read this correctly you are concerned that;

A) Alex story is too easy Which will cause
- People to only do it once for story then not do it again
- People wont bother with Savage Mode
B) You worry that Alex Savage will be too hard for mid tier players
- The mid tier player will be forever barred from the Savage content and rewards

Well, this is by design. People, Like me (I consider myself a mid tier player), have yet to do Coil past the first turn because of the environment that hardcore content creates. I don't have a huge flashy FC with lots of people to take me through it. I just wanted to do it for the story, since I was a Meteor survivor I was really curious to see the story contained in there. I didnt even care if there were zero rewards, I just wanted to experience the fights and story without the stress. Alex story sounds like it is EXACTLY what people like me wanted. Thanks SE!

I honestly hope that Alex Savage IS insanely hard, there are people out there that really want the hard challenging content. I hope Savage is what they are looking for. Highest tier rewards, toughest content, and everything else they are asking for. I am not worried because there is still the Mid Tier raid to come, the Crystal Tower equivalent in 3.0. It will have good entry level gear for Alex Savage and difficulty for people like me to move from Alex NM to Alex Savage.

The CT 3.0 version will be the challenge I'm looking for

Sincerely,

Mid Tier Player.

While I find the current Alexander abit too easy, a lot of people in general still are struggling with A1 for example even though it's story.
I don't think they'll ever be able to make an 8 man raid for 'casuals' unless the boss has 1HP as a little responsibility is too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AsakuraVN

Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XVIII

/thread

---

Wait... What? Does that mean the CT equivalent will be locked behind the Housing content too? I sure hope what you are talking about is in addition to the CT raid. If not I'll be some pissed that yet another piece of content is locked behind first come first served.

I think there are many opinions on what a "mid-tier player" is.

IMO, if you didn't do coil once it was nerfed and had echo, you're not mid-tier. (Again, my opinion).

I completed fcob with upgraded poe and echo... I don't think I could have done it in it's original state. I'm not a hardcore raider. I consider myself middling.

Completed A4 with just two wipes, in DF. Half were new.

I am NOT against having an easy version so everyone can see story! I'm just worried that the choice is either: very easy version OR hardcore-raiders only version.

I shall wait and see how savage is... I'm just surprised how many people don't understand what op is getting at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

It means different things to different people, apparently. The proper meaning, one that should be universally accepted, is 'a player who plays games for the singular sentiment of relaxing'. You know, long day at the job/school/whatever, you just want to unwind and have some fun that doesn't involve exercise. For the 'raid community' it means... well, this I will quote.

---

It's a very small portion of the raiding community that feels that way. Please don't paint us all with the same brush. Many of us understand that people play at different skill levels and don't think any less of them.

Honestly, I found the difficulty on Alexander NM to be quite fun for going in blind. My static downed Floor 1 on the third pull and Floor 2 on the second. Our WHM had to leave, and after asking around in linkshells we couldn't find anyone so we just queued in Duty Finder. We got a great AST that worked through Floor 3 (my favorite fight so far, very much a tank check) with us in about half an hour. We queued for Floor 4 but didn't get it down (bard forgot to repair so we had to back out, it was late so we just called it) and we're going again tonight.

Given how wrong people were about how difficult Alexander Normal supposedly was going to be (coil + echo was way harder than this lol) I really don't trust any of the information out there that hints at how difficult Alexander Hard will be. SE stated that they took clear percentages for Coil into account and such, which tells me that they aren't going to scale the "hardcore" content up much (if at all) from what it already was. Honestly, I think people are jumping the gun with the worrying and the crying about it because we don't have it yet so we don't know anything for sure. Personally, I'm willing to just chill and cruise the gear treadmill for awhile cause it's a pretty fun one. Several of us in my static were already talking about running these raids in partial parties in Duty Finder for shits and giggles just because they're fun fights that don't have a whole lot of stress associated with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

@OP:
Sincerely,

Mid Tier Player.

---

You are not mid tier player, CT was always low end easy content you even can afk whole fight and still get win like some players do only autoattack whole runs. What is reffered as mid tier in this game now is Bismarck EX, Ravana EX.
Its not easy but also not hard, avarage player can beat in 1 evening or 2.
I think most of mid tier players (not you) wanted to have difficulty of Alex(story) as EX primals so avarage group can beat in 1 week all 4 turns with some tactics and gameplay and not all the turns in one day via dutyfinder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

not sure why it has to require i170 to enter.

---

To try and encourage people to do roulettes and help out newer players is my guess.

CT is so easy to AFK, yet people easily wipe it to this very day. Hm.

you can remove half the healers in CT and still it would be easy.

I'm not sure why you even bother complaining about how easy Alex NM is then OP, if you think it's "fine". Sounds like backpedaling to me.


In any case, your "worry" that Alex Savage will be very hard is well founded. It IS going to be very hard, and there's nothing wrong with that. They gave the easy mode for the story-lovers, and they're giving the "really hard" mode for the hardcore progress lovers.

No, there's not going to be a middle difficulty, and there shouldn't be. If they don't make it uber hard, then they are neglecting the progression players. Are they neglecting the "I don't want easy, but I don't want super hard either" group? Absolutely. But you're just going to have to get over that, especially since your group is the minority compared to the other two.

They aren't going to make an entirely new middle set of ilvl gear just so that you can have your "kinda hard but not really" difficulty setting. And it would be a lot more development work which could be better spent elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

You are not mid tier player, CT was always low end easy content you even can afk whole fight and still get win like some players do only autoattack whole runs. What is reffered as mid tier in this game now is Bismarck EX, Ravana EX.
Its not easy but also not hard, avarage player can beat in 1 evening or 2.
I think most of mid tier players (not you) wanted to have difficulty of Alex(story) as EX primals so avarage group can beat in 1 week all 4 turns with some tactics and gameplay and not all the turns in one day via dutyfinder.

---

Thats the beauty of undefined and subjective labeling of players. Just like hardcore and casual. I was using Yoshi-P's labeling of the aspects of the game. Either way, i do believe the 24 man raid that will be coming out is going to be the intermediary between EX primals, Alex NM and Alex Savage.

And I do consider myself Mid Tier player. I never said I cant do it, i just dislike the Toxic environment "Hardcore" content creates. I said nothing about not being capeable of doing the content. If I had the ability to join a static I would have no problems doing the content.

I say it all the time, game needs THREE DIFFICULTY OPTIONS for much of its major combat content.

So tired of the mid-core getting so shafted constantly.

We need EX Dungeons & Savage 24-Man's (mid-core, mid-core).

Story, HM, & EX Primals are fine (though, Ravana & Bismarck EX should've been HM at 60, with EX's to come later).

Leveling/Story Dungeons qualify as the first difficulty tier.

Casual/Normal/Story-centric players can have their story-mode, mid-core players can have their suitable challenge, & the hard-core can have their savage raids (perhaps one day, Savage Primal's too!).

Alexander (normal/story) is too freaking easy!!! Alexander (savage) sounds like it'll be too freaking hard. Why do you keep cutting out the mid-core Yoshi??

For reference, in my opinion at end-game (loosely):


Casual/Normal:

Alexander (normal)
Dungeons (50 at cap & 60 at cap)
CT/ST/WoD
Primal HM
Over-World (everything not instanced; e.g. Mobs, Hunts, Leves, Quests, & more)


Mid-core:

Pharos Sirius (pre-nerf, not over-geared)
Primal EX
T1-5 (pre-Echo, not over-geared)
T6-9 (Echo, not over-geared)
T10-13 (Echo, not over-geared)

Between Mid-core to Hard-core:

T6-9 (pre-Echo, minimal ilvl)
T10-13 (pre-Echo, minimal ilvl)

Hard-core:

T6-9 (savage)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

I am not worried because there is still the Mid Tier raid to come, the Crystal Tower equivalent in 3.0. It will have good entry level gear for Alex Savage and difficulty for people like me to move from Alex NM to Alex Savage.

The CT 3.0 version will be the challenge I'm looking for

---

Excuse-me but... what?

Please tell me you're joking when you're categorizing CT as a mid tier raid... You can finish it with half of the alliance afk or asleep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

But you're just going to have to get over that, especially since your group is the minority compared to the other two.

---

Given the interest generated by Savage Coil, I'd like to know where you found your numbers. Because, I'm convinced you're wrong and that the number of "mid tier raiders" is superior to that of "cutting-edge hardcore raiders"

Alex(story) will become frustrating for mid tier players. I think thats the right word for it: FRUSTRATING.

Explanation for this is because:
Its not challenging, not funny after 1-3 runs.
But you still want to have tokens from it. So its like Crystal tower^4.
Good players will have static for it and do like 4-5 runs per turn every week.
Avarage players will be stucked whole week in one of turns and pray for RNG that they will win token and also that their runs will be smooth so they have only max 2 below avarage players with them.
I personally will farm this with static, but I feel pain for every avarage or mid tier player who dont have static and will be doing it via duty finder. Like whole week wasted.

Anyway there was discussion or talk about to bring taste or feel of raiding for new players. There is none from alexander. New players will not learn anything. They will wipe and disband until there are 4+ midtier or better players in group so they carry them over turn and move on.

I really wished that alex normal mode will have mid tier difficulty like primal ex so teamwork is must to beat it, but its not hard (many avarage players have ravana ex on farm). But what we get is mindless and frustrating farm over df aka Crystal tower 3.0 for 8 people with one small step higher difficulty than CT was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KerenRhys

Excuse-me but... what?

Please tell me you're joking when you're categorizing CT as a mid tier raid... You can finish it with half of the alliance afk or asleep.

---

I agree, it is not difficult. The difficulty is people ignoring the mechanics (Dragon and Skele's). I was using Yoshi-P's definitions, sorry if that was wrong. Maybe I should have stated that more clearly since I was using a subjective term. But Alex NM was not supposed to be hard and Savage is supposed to replace Coil as the most difficult. I really dont want a third version of the same dungeon for a mid tier. I want something a little different. Sorry.

i agree with the OP 100%

content difficulty in 2.x

Expert Roulette > 24 Man Raid > EX Primals > Echo Coil > Non-Echo Coil > Savage Coil

content difficulty in 3.x

Expert Roulette > Alexander > EX Primals > A > B > C

is Alexander Savage going to fall at B or C

if it's at C, what's left for people who want to do something harder than EX Primals but don't want to do Savage type content.
if it's at B, what's left for people who like actual Savage type content?

there's a huge gap missing after Ravana EX.

hugely unlikely that the 24 man raid in 3.1 will be above Ravana EX in difficulty.

From an outside, not even 60 perspective, I like what they're proposing. My main mmo is the same - story mode was challenging initially, but without nerfs and a couple of people who knew how to do the bosses were easy to explain and take a new group through, or could be done in completely new group in a couple of hours with a few wipes.

I played in 2.3 era, and hit 50 during that time. The reason I let my sub lapse was that as a new player it was impossible to get a static that wanted someone who hadn't cleared T5, and T5 couldn't really be plugged without paying for a carry, meaning a significant portion of content was out of reach. With Alex, it looks as if anyone will be able to do the raids without too much difficulty, and those who really want to progress will have Savage to do this in too.

I hope it's as difficult as savage second coil personally. I don't see them nerfing it tbh as there is no necessity for a clear to reach the next level, that's why the other nerfs occurred was to allow players to breach the content wall of t5, t9, t13 and finish. That won't be necessary here as savage isn't needed to progress to the second Alexander from my understanding and I like the idea that the increased difficulty will result in extravagant rewards.

I wouldn't consider myself Extremely hardcore by any standard and like to do things at my own pace, but I absolutely adore smashing my face against content that is tough because it is rewarding. I really like the way they are doing things so far.

As far as difficulty goes I've always felt that the EX primals/coil with echo was the mid tier, coil (unerfed/undergeared/savage) was the Hardcore content and HM dungeons/CT Raids were the easier more casual content.

IM ELITIST BUT ALSO A CASUAL SCUM
lmfoa

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kydi

snip.

---

Sorry to tell you that but in fact what you get with Alexander normal is not raiding. Not even a little feel of that. What you get will be toxic environment for you where majority of players just want they tokens and go out. People are not realizing fact that in real raids there is a lot of more friendly environment. People progressing some hard/savage content are on same line because they are progressing it and it takes time. On other side people who are going for their tokens are those who are shouting on newcomers because they are frustrated cos they have to run 1 floor (turn) 5-10 times per week to get tokens. Multiply it by 4 and every week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stupiddog

What I have a problem with is the difficulty planed for Savage. Yes, we do not know exactly how difficult it will be.

---

????????????

Because we spent 8 pages talking about how difficult for something that hasn't been released yet...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

????????????

---

You have won this thread, congratulations. /clap /joy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

Snip

---

It may not be the most pleasant experience to get into, but what I'm trying to get at is that there is at least an endgame raid content for someone who is perhaps behind the curve a little. For instance, when the second at of floors is released, people will still be happy to run the first in normal (I expect) as it won't entail hours of teaching the newbie/wiping. Compare this to Coils and the difficulty someone coming in late had in getting a group without an achieve. Whilst there is (currently) the rageat newcomers as people want to farm, I would expect this to die down in a few weeks when the hardcore get their gear and move on to savage, leaving the more casual players to normal mode whilst not rushing to get to the end conent.

Now, progressing from normal mode to savage and getting into a progression group is of course a completely different matter. I've dealt with managing a raid group in another mmo and understand the difficulty faced in doing so, and to an extent the need for a midground proving ground type content which would "appear" to be missing in the current/near future meta.

What kills me is, you all are arguing amongst each other over something that's not out yet.
OP even said it himself basically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stupiddog

What I have a problem with is the difficulty planed for Savage. Yes, we do not know exactly how difficult it will be.

---

TLDR; Alex Story/NM was suppose to be this way.
Alex HM/EX/SAV whatever is going to be a lot more harder.

Stop worrying about crap that's not out yet.
Ya'll going to give yourself a heart attack one day I swear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

People are not realizing fact that in real raids there is a lot of more friendly environment. People progressing some hard/savage content are on same line because they are progressing it and it takes time.

---

One hundred shades of truth in this statement. Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhikail

What kills me is, you all are arguing amongst each other over something that's not out yet.

---

it doesn't matter how hard it is when it comes out

"Expert Roulette > Alexander > EX Primals > A > B > C"

it's 1 event for 3 difficulty tiers.

A is reserved for the Echo version of Alex Savage. no matter where it falls, one of the other 2 will get shafted.

if what was coming in two weeks is Alexander (Hard) at least people can have hope that it's definitely B tier difficulty and Alexander (Savage) will be an option later.

the likelihood of a Hard mode and Echo is basically Nil since they already set up the gear drops to be Normal + Savage.

I don't know why you people say it isn't raiding because it doesn't "feel" like raiding.

Sorry, if its designed for a full party or more, its a raid.

After playing it a bit yesterday, (worked long so only had time for two runs at A1), my first df group one shotted it, while my second wiped about five times, mostly due to one BLM who knew evertyhing but could do nothing right. I find the difficulty to be about right for a those who it is geared towards. I think it could be slightly harder, give how easy gear progression will make it, but time will tell.

I'm also a little concerned that Savage will be too much of a gap(for me at least), since my schedule does not allow for statics, but once again, time will tell.

The problem with Alex being too easy, imo is, they aren't actally fun raids, they are short, like coils, and the mechanics iss what made them fun and interesting. Will the just be a mindless grind and then wasteland soon after? What I mean is, if you want something that is a bit more of a full instance, you can run a dungeon oe 24 man. If you want a boss fight, you can run a primal. These seem an undesirable inbetween when you don't have that much difficulty to overcome. Will the more casual players who wanted this be left with a "Oh, so this is raiding? Meh..." kind of feeling?

But then again, it could be a smash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

Are they neglecting the "I don't want easy, but I don't want super hard either" group? Absolutely. But you're just going to have to get over that, especially since your group is the minority compared to the other two.

---

The people that want "super hard" will always be the smallest group, because however high you set the bar, there's always going to be a subset of the people who can clear it that will want something even harder to challenge.

Prior to FCoB going into DF, something like 5% of the player base had cleared it. With that in mind, it would probably be reasonable to classify it as "super hard" content... but then consider that only a tiny fraction of that already small group cleared Savage SCoB when i110 was still the highest gear available.

If a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction is clearing content, surely that's "super hard", but if that's "super hard" then what did that make SCoB/FCoB when they were current?